Nader will attend DNC/ABC Democratic Debate Tonight

[La_Serpiente]

Dec. 9 – Ralph Nader, who is surrounded with rumors he may run again for president, will have a chance at Tuesday’s presidential debate to size up his possible competition – in person.

PoliticsNH.com has learned Nader will be the guest of Ohio Congressman and candidate Dennis Kucinich. Nader will sit among the nearly 1,000 audience members in the debate sponsored by ABC News and sanctioned by the Democratic National Committee. Candidates are given an allotment of tickets for staff and supporters. The debate will be held at the University of New Hampshire .

His presence will be interesting given the fact that many Democrats blame Nader for Al Gore’s loss to George Bush in 2000. That year, as a third party candidate running from the Green Party, Nader’s left-leaning voters siphoned off votes that likely would have gone to Gore. Vote totals tell the story. In the closest presidential race in American history, Bush won New Hampshire by 7,200 votes. Nader received 22,200 votes from Granite Staters.

A Kucinich campaign spokesman said originally Kucinich gave Nader an “all access” pass allowing him to roam anywhere in the debate building, including the spin room. A Democratic Party source said on the condition of anonymity this privilege to Nader was revoked.

more...

Nader

[JI7]

1. interesting

i wonder if he will get to ask a question.

[Mari333]

2. Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! go away Ralph!!

Go away Holy Joe, Go away Ralph!

[maddezmom]

3. Gore's going to be there, too!

Wonder if they'll have words.

[slinkerwink]

77. hahahaha....now that's just funny

[IronLionZion]

107. Words? I hope Gore kicks his sorry ass!

We need to draft Roy Moore as a Conservative third party. Then we can really slay Bush.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. And this is why I love Dennis

He's such an openminded guy.

[Rowdyboy]

5. Dennis has made me reconsider

Now he's my least favorite candidate of the nine. What an flaming asshole! I could undestand if the networks had helped Nader get in, but for one of the candidates to let this piece of shit in, its inexcusable. Nader is a major reason we even have to have these debates-Gore would be cruising to a second term.

ABB-except Lieberman and Kucinich.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rowdyboy]

10. Not a bipartisan bone in my body

and I'm proud to admit it. And I'm also tired of Republicans running all over us, with our help.

[Ardee]

120. not very much in the way of judgement either

unfortunately you are as much a uniter as is Bush......

[info being]

60. Right, just alienate all the Greens...good strategy

Forgot to say how pathetic it is if this really changed your mind about Dennis. Kind of makes me think you never understood what he stands for in the first place.

[redqueen]

65. Exactly

For this effort (to rebuild the bridges between establishment Democrats and the Greens which they've so effectively disenfranchised with their kowtowing to corporate interests) to have lost someone's support indicates that support was wafer-thin to start with.

[BellTry]

97. This is why Clark can't win

Far far too divisive. If the Clark people think they can win this thing by pissing off liberals they need to get with reality.

[bushisanidiot]

7. Nader Received 22K votes in N.H.?? Should be a landslide for Dean!!!

holy crap. No way is Nader going to screw the country over again. The greens will not follow him off another cliff like they did in 2000. Even if HALF of Nader's votes go to the Dem. candidate the dems will smash AWOL in a landslide!!!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

8. Last time Gore and the DLC sent goons to "escort" him out of the hall

That's democracy for you! Not only would they not debate him, they wouldn't even let him in the auditorium to watch.

[LeahMira]

9. Buncha nervous nellies here?

Last time Gore and the DLC sent goons to "escort" him out of the hall

Was Gore responsible for that episode? I didn't know that. If it's true, Gore just went down a peg in my ladder.

Anyhow, I'm glad Dennis extended that courtesy this time around. It shows he's not afraid of anything Nader could or would do. If Nader does announce, he most definitely should be included in the presidential debates.

BTW, the Bushies are predicting a landslide for their guy. It's the Democrats who are worried about a photo-finish. I know the primaries aren't even started yet, but when Democrats do pick a candidate I hope they start predicting a landslide victory for the Democratic candidate. Let's say that they'd better.

[individual]

18. If Nader announces

"If Nader does announce, he most definitely should be included in the presidential debates." Wrong. Nader could have guaranteed a Gore win by withdrawing from Florida. Nader is an ego-maniac, along with Donahue and Sarandon. If we get a judiciary which looks more like scumbag Scalia (which is very likely), we can thank Nader, Donahue, Sarandon for this "gift."

[LeahMira]

25. Nader's goals...

... did not include guaranteeing Gore a win.

At the time, Nader thought of Gore and Bush as about the same. Hindsight is 20/20. Who but the nuttiest rightwinger would have imagined that Bush would turn out to be the person he is now?

Sorry, but to some voters (me included), Gore failed to go after Bush with any real enthusiasm. Now, he's coming on stronger, but now is just too darn late. OTOH, Nader never minced words. He did it with humor from time to time and he did it with outrage from time to time, but he did it.

If you really want to blame someone for losing the election to Bush, blame Gore... the guy who never really fought for the Presidency.

[burning bush]

74. Bullshit

Gore fought harder than you spin, and that's quite an accomplishment.

I can't believe there are people who still would rather blame Gore than Nader. Nader wasn't the only reason Gore isn't in the Whitehouse today, but he damn sure is one of the reasons.

Of course there's the whole Bush vote FRAUD and SCOTUS crap, but that's just too fucking horrible to deal with, isn't it? Much easier to pretend it all never happened

Much easier to blame Gore, and leave your thought process in nuetral.

What a croc of shit.

So spin away, spin, spin, spin. Hope your spin doesn't get you sick. It's already making me gag.


Sorry for the profanity.

[Ardee]

121. gee a Nader basher how very rare!

If our system of education taught critical thinking this poster might have had a better chance ,but too bad, they didnt and h/she doesnt.

I thought that Skinner had set up a Nader thread to confine these exerable and wrong headed posters to one area only?

[Bucky]

126. Did you say "how rare"?

Weebl's #2 episode still cracks me up!

[Cheswick2.0]

106. great more nadernonsense talking points...bull shit then......bullshit 3

years later.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colin Ex]

29. I have a question for you.

What does this:

"'If Nader does announce, he most definitely should be included in the presidential debates.'"

Have to do with this?

"Nader could have guaranteed a Gore win by withdrawing from Florida. Nader is an ego-maniac, along with Donahue and Sarandon. If we get a judiciary which looks more like scumbag Scalia (which is very likely), we can thank Nader, Donahue, Sarandon for this 'gift.'"

[lifelong_Dem]

103. double post

[lifelong_Dem]

104. That's BS

Last time Gore and the DLC sent goons to "escort" him out of the hall

Was Gore responsible for that episode? I didn't know that. If it's true, Gore just went down a peg in my ladder.

The debates are run by a nonpartisan commission, and it was THEM who kept Nader out. Green whining that it was Gore who excluded Nader from the debates has no basis in reality.

[Hep]

11. Wow

How could gore be guarding the door and participating at the same time?

[Terwilliger]

14. did he say Gore did that?

I think that was you.

[Hep]

67. Read the subject line

and correct yourself.

Just for you:

"Last time Gore and the DLC sent goons to "escort" him out of the hall"

Now you say, "Sorry, your were right".

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

68. Gore is a member of the DLC

get it yet?

[burning bush]

76. No, I dont get it

explain it as you would to a child....

[Terwilliger]

111. here's the CPD for the child

http://www.fair.org/articles/compromised-commission.html

[Cheswick2.0]

105. more lies

sorry but Gore is not a member of the DLC and they (the dlc) had no power to escort anyone out of the debates in 2000 anymore than Gore did. Besided Nader was disruptive (as planned) and that's why he had his ass booted out of the debates.

[BellTry]

98. Please learn english

You say Gore couldn't have PERSONALY been guarding the door... Yet you have the text that cleary says he SENT GOONS to do it. So how exactly do you read Gore SENDING OTHERS in to Gore DOING IT HIM SELF?

[Terwilliger]

110. is there a problem?

Your reading comprehension really needs work. Your implication was that Gore could not guard the dooor and participate, yet the person said "sent goons"

Say you're sorry.

[G_j]

16. He was threatened with arrest in Boston

and he had a ticket. I've never heard that Gore had anything to do with that though.

[Cheswick2.0]

102. that's not true

that's Nadernonsense.

[Terwilliger]

112. sorry, but it is

http://www.fair.org/articles/compromised-commission.html

http://www.mediachannel.org/views/dissector/debate.shtml
When Green Party candidate Ralph Nader showed up to watch, he was ejected from the area, not once but three times, even though FOX news had asked him to provide commentary. He is now threatening to sue the Debates Commission <snip>

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0417-04.htm

[mdmc]

113. well, Gore has pull

and could have kept Nader in the debate audience. Or forced bush to kick him out. I think they let the event host decide how to handle (Corporate puppets make me want to) Ralph.

[Terwilliger]

12. Shows me why I believe in Kucinich as a candidate

he's got class

[Colin Ex]

13. No kidding.

Kucinich rocks even harder for me, now. What a classy guy.

Too bad about the knee-jerkers, oi.

-C

[Forkboy]

15. Maybe they'll let him in this time

[Touchdown]

17. I wonder if Edwards will call him...

a Carpet-bagging Northerner, trying to boss Southerners around, like he does to Dean on a daily basis?

[MaryBear]

19. Like Camejo, Nader asks

the right questions. I hope he gets a chance to do so tonight.

[mzmolly]

20. If Kucinich helps Nader run again, he's lost my respect.

PERIOD. And, I hope he loses the votes of Democrats everywhere.

[Terwilliger]

22. nice and reactionary, mz

how is giving him a pass to see the debate helping him to run again?

[mzmolly]

26. I didn't say it was... note the word "IF"....

IF..................................

[Terwilliger]

27. so, IF just gives you an excuse to go anti-ballistic when you feel like it

Your first instinct was that Dennis might "help" Nader (whatever that means) which says to me you're voting for Kerry, Dean, or Clark. Secondly, why is it help for a Democrat to invite an American citizen to the debate? Are Democrats using the wrong word to describe themselves?

[mzmolly]

79. An American Citizen...cute way to DOWNPLAY Naders interest

in F-ing with the Democratic Party. Here are some quotes from this average American Citizen who ran against Gore in 2000.

Regarding Senators Russ Feingold (D-WI) and Paul Wellstone (D-MN), Nader said that he is willing to sacrifice them because "that's the price they're going to have to bear for letting their party go astray." ~ In an interview with In the Times, 10-30-2000

Nader was quoted in Mother Jones magazine as saying that "(Rush) Holt deserves to lose." July 2001, Mother Jones magazine.
Holt, however, has a 100% voting record rating from Americans for Democratic Action, and many other liberal organizations.


In a recent Time magazine interview, when asked if he felt any regret about the 2000 election, Nader responded, "No, because it could have been worse. You could have had a Republican Congress with Gore and Lieberman." -- Time magazine, 8-05-02

On a different occasion, Nader offered reserved support for Feingold. Feingold has even remarked that Nader is pushing for issues that more Democrats should be talking about. The mutual admiration, however, only goes so far. Nader rejects the idea of backing a Feingold run for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination. "I'll say a lot of good things about him, but we're not trying to build the same party," he says. -- Common Dreams 2-25-2002

“The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That’s the only difference,” he said. “The two parties ... are becoming one corporate party, with two heads wearing different makeup, and that is not a good enough choice for the American people.” ~ In a speech at Amherst College, 10-04-00

When asked point-blank about the actions of specific government actors, such as George W. Bush and John Ashcroft, Nader has claimed that bureacratic restraints will stop them from being able to effect real change. If the Green Party succeeds in keeping Democrats out of office, where exactly is this restraint going to come from?
Nader contended that Bush would not damage the Earth and generally remain popular, but he has pushed arctic drilling and other anti-environment policies. "If they continue to pursue a scorched-earth policy, they’ll be defeated in the next election, and the environmental rules will come out stronger as a result. There’s no way they’re going to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR)."

Nader said that a Gore presidency "wouldn't have been any different in terms of military and foreign policy, soft on corporate crime. It wouldn't have been any different in ignoring the need to transfer our country to renewable energy and organic agriculture and protecting the small farmer. And it wouldn't have been any different on GATT and NAFTA and the increasing trade deficits and exporting American jobs." -- Green Party USA 1-14/02

"Rome wasn't built in a day. It will be a process of building and in the first stage we'll effect the margins of victory between the two parties and that's a lot of leverage."

The goals of Ralph Nader are clear..."EFFECT THE MARGIN OF VICTORY BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES" that is goal # 1 for Mr. Nader...

Sorry, but this is no average American Citizen Terwilliger, nice try.

BTW, I'll be glad to think of another name for Democrats when the Greens remove "global responsibility" from their political platform. Running Nader in 00 was not the "Globally Responsible" thing to do.

Pot ... Kettle ... Black ...

[Terwilliger]

115. the Democratic party needs to be fucked with

and events of the last two days only reinforce, yet AGAIN, the notion that all was not well with 2000...and yet Ralph is STILL the only focus you have because you can't explain the miserable failures of the Democratic party

nice try is right...these cut-and-pastes are SO old

[Ardee]

122. thanks for posting such ringing and truthful indictments of your Party

that took courage......or maybe you are so blinded by loyalty to that party that you cannot see the truths blatant as they might be.....

Fanatical party members do their party a disservice and, while the democratic ship continues to sink, rather than helping to bail, you and the other childish democrats continue to point fingers as your heads disappear beneath the waves......

[Ficus]

33. not a big tent anymore huh

Back to the old question: Do we want to incorporate willing Greens to vote Democrat or should we shun them and give them more of a reason to want to destroy the Democratic Party.

We need to build bridges, not burn them, and that's the difference between DK and others in this party.

[mzmolly]

80. Scuse me, he didn't invite Granny D...

He invited a potential political opponent to the Democratic Nominee.

"In the 2004 presidential election, we must not split our vote between Greens and Democrats. I know the Greens have party building to do, but, if Mr. Bush wins again, there will be no America for them to build their party in. So they must defer this time and earn our respect and admiration for doing so." ~ Granny D March 8, 2003

[Iverson]

81. There's a witch in the audience.

Burn the witch.
:eyes:

[mzmolly]

82. I'll light the match.

:nuke:

[Iverson]

84. Don't tell me ...

I'm either with you or agin' you, right?

[mzmolly]

85. No your either with the Dems or your a Bush enabler...

:) Take your pick.

[Iverson]

87. ah

It's the false dichotomy express. We're back to witch burning. Thanks for clarifying the limits of allowable thought. It was so persuasive.

[mzmolly]

90. Heck let's invite Bush too shall we?

He can sit next to Nader and they can discuss strategy for taking out the competition? :hi:

[Iverson]

91. silly

If you trouble to compare ideas, platforms, you will find that the Green Party is less similar to Bush than the party that you prefer. In fact, there are some "opposition" candidates who have stood shoulder to shoulder with Bush. Let's see, were they Greens? Why, no! Mirabile visu!

Gee, I think that they were in your party. I wasn't going to bring it up, but your fantasy scenario was simply insulting, as it was intended to be.

How persuasive.

[mzmolly]

95. Oh puh-leeezze

:eyes:

[Ardee]

123. what inciteful commentary mz

out of ideas huh? Blind unreasoning loyalty only goes so far, and losing two elections in a row makes no impression upon you. Supporting one Bush agenda after the other slips by you as well, what a political philosophy, eyes shut, hands over ears, proud democrat to the end!

[TeeYiYi]

100. I don't understand why the suggestion is being made . . .

. . . that Kucinich would somehow consider helping Nader run for president. It doesn't make sense and if it doesn't make sense, that's probably because it's a baseless suggestion.

Kucinich IS running for president. He's not going to help someone else run against him.

I would guess that he is courting Nader's endorsement and I'll bet he gets it.

GO DENNIS!

TYY

[poskonig]

21. Given the Greens want to *destroy* the Democratic Party

I wonder why Kucinich would help Nader out with anything.

[Terwilliger]

23. maybe Kucinich understands things outside...

of the narrow partisan take you have

[Iverson]

24. given a faulty premise

... a faulty conclusion

[poskonig]

30. I made an *observation*,

not an argument.

[Iverson]

31. how nice for you

Anyone can encode their preferences as neutral observations, but asserting so doesn't make it true.

[poskonig]

35. Fine. Helping Norm Coleman in Minnesota

was supposed to enhance the vitality of the Democratic Party. We can't have sellouts like Wellstone in the Congress, y'know.

[Iverson]

56. What did Winona LaDuke say about that?

Bet you don't know.
It is unsafe to generalize from a selected instance.

[mzmolly]

86. Winona is not the 'guest' in question...

;)

Additionally she had this to say about Paul Wellstone's campaign.

"If Wellstone loses this November, it is a defeat for the Green Party, for all progressives, and for the agenda we share." Winona LaDuke, 2000 Green Party Vice-Presidential candidate The Hill, 7-10-02

She is not the hypocrite Ralph Nader is.

[Iverson]

88. you're beginning to catch on

Setting aside the embedded insults that you cannot resist as part of political discussion, you begin to see that not all members of a class are necessarily identical.

One day we may talk about ideas in the far, far future, unless all the witches are burned by then.

[mzmolly]

94. I'm catching on?

When might you?

Democratic Political Opponents in 2000

George Bush
Ralph Nader
Pat Buchanan

The rest can be found here:

http://www.politics1.com/p2000a.htm

Let's invite them all, especially those considering a run against us in 2004 :eyes:

[Ficus]

42. Nader isn't a Green

nt

[poskonig]

45. Of course not.

Despite not being a registered member, he was merely their national candidate.

[Ficus]

54. NOT a registered member

and is considering a indipendent run in 2004.

[BellTry]

99. Are you a Clark supporter?

If only you were...

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dolstein]

34. Nader wrote the hold up note and drove the getaway car

NT

[Forkboy]

36. Quick Dolstein

Joe's being bashed in other threads! To The JoeMobile!!

[poskonig]

39. LOLOLOL

"To the Joemobile!"

[thebigidea]

51. Holy centrist arrogance, Batman!

[ulysses]

73. ROFL!!!

:D

[Ficus]

37. analogy is messed up

Gore was the sleeping security guard who let it all happen. James Baker, Kathleen Harris and Jeb Bush drove the getaway car called the supreme court. And Nader? Well he was the awake security guard trying to wake sleeping Gore up the whole time.

[Terwilliger]

41. how ya like me now?

[_NorCal_D_]

38. What?

A Kucinich campaign spokesman said originally Kucinich gave Nader an “all access” pass allowing him to roam anywhere in the debate building, including the spin room. A Democratic Party source said on the condition of anonymity this privilege to Nader was revoked.

Hmmm what could this mean? :shrug:

[Catherine Vincent]

40. Utter bullshit!

Maybe Kuchinich and Nader should marry each other!

[Ficus]

43. marry each other?

very intelligent post.

[Catherine Vincent]

48. Thanks!

n/t

[Forkboy]

44. You sound like Pee Wee Herman

"Shhhhh,I'm trying to attand a debate!"

[Catherine Vincent]

49. Who's Pee Wee Herman?

n/t

[Forkboy]

64. Wow.I'm getting old

that's the second reference I've made today that someone didn't know :)

[Ardee]

124. naah it sjust that cat girl knows little

n/t

[bobthedrummer]

46. Who is Kuchinich? A Green?

Did you mean Kucinich?

[Catherine Vincent]

50. "Did you mean Kucinich"

Yes, I did.

[Terwilliger]

47. bleh!

Kucinich is bad because he invites Nader to the debate?

GET SOME PERSPECTIVE!

[Catherine Vincent]

52. I didn't say he was bad.

I just hate the fact that he invited Nader. It's bullshit.

[bobthedrummer]

53. Bullshit? It was fearless.

Could you imagine Nader as Sect. of Health and Human Services?!?!

[Ficus]

55. we need to build

not tear down a progressive alliance. We're stupid to throw votes to fringe parties and candidates by marginalizing them.

Third parties only exist when the two major parties, whomever they may be, refuse to adopt the stances. The quickest way to destroy your competition? Absorb them and their issues.

[AntiCoup2K4]

96. The old Ralph Nader, maybe. but not Ralph from 2000

Ralph Nader, Health and Human Services secretary - "You know what? I'm gonna remove all those warnings from cigarette packs and tell the stores it's OK to sell tobacco to 12 year old kids. That way, when they all get lung cancer, maybe then they'll think about how bad tobacco addiction is".

Not a lot different then his strategy of wanting Bush to win in 2000 in order to send the Democratic party back to the left.

[Ardee]

125. analogy crashes into tree, film at eleven

Rather than hiding the truth Nader spoke it publicly.Rather than your silly and unthinking assumptions that Nader wanted Bush to win, what intelligent people understand is that Nader wanted democrats to turn away from their attempts to become republicans.

Nader castigated Bush far, far more often than he did GHore or the dmeocratic party, adn, today, everything he prophesised about the dems seems to have come to pass!

[thebaghwan]

57. Why doesn't that SOB go away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

N/T

[CWebster]

58. Nader will be a sideshow in this 3 ring circus

Judging by the atmosphere in here since Gore endorsed Dean, the long knives are gonna be drawn.

[SahaleArm]

59. And Ralph will announce his run for the presidency.

Should be fun :evilgrin:

[CWebster]

61. I doubt it

Why should he with Kucinich running?

[corporatewhore]

62. liberal first dem second

We are not here ONLY to vote out bush but also to vote for achance for peace and justice. I think that social global and economic injustice is not limited to the republican party.I was earlier this year seriously considering voting dem no matter who got the ticket just to get rid of bush but i got a reminder of why this is not a good idea. I am aon the production team of an indy tv series (just got our pilot on free speech:) and i was filming an interview of an iraqi woman who was over her via voices in the wilderness to get medical treatment for her son who had a hundred pieces of shapnel becuase of a us bombing her other son died at age eight. I assumed it was ghw bush but it happened in 1999 under clinton.Just like the bombings of kosovo (where hospitals and schools were bombed) Under clinton kyoto was rejected.Under clinton we also saw economic and social injustice furthered by deals like nafta and the wto.clinton wass being bought out by large corps.that is why nader ran. War and social injustice happens under democrats as well.Only two cannidates are willing to bring the troops home immeadiatly only two cannidate are willng to make a stand for the global justice movement and get out of nafta and the wto only two cannidates are willing to work for peace by cutting the bloated pentagon budjet. we need to keep in mind that we are notsimply voting someone out of office but are also voting ideas in aswell.Ifkucinich or sharpton get the ticket nader wont have to run and we can avoid another 2000 andwith all of theis abb attitude i think they would win

[redqueen]

66. Well said!

It takes a big person to admit their own failings, and it would take a big party to admit theirs. Can democrats admit they've failed by whoring out to corporate interests? It remains to be seen.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

117. what gives you the right!?

To come into DU all newbie and stuff and be so damn right on! :)

I have appreciated your posts so far and you definitely 'get it'.

People need to open their eyes. Is simply getting someone with a (D) next to their name really a 'win'? So we have the outside appearance of a difference while we continue to move right, continue to enable corporations and simply continue to COMPROMISE. Doesn't anyone see where this has taken us so far? ----> Bush is where it got us, and if we keep it up it's only going to get worse the next time the media pushes a 'backlash' against the crazy liberal in the whitehouse. Since we will have moved further right, the opponent is going to be further and further right.


Welcome again and again good wishes for your father and your family.


TWL

[G_j]

63. Just imagine PLEASE for one moment

(I usually stay pretty well away from these discussions, but because this involves a debate, I had some thoughts)

Concerning the last presidential debates:
Imagine if you will, that you are a popular third party presidential
candidate (no, you are not Nader and you never heard of him).
For the better part of American history you would have been included in the debate(s). But recently the RNC and the DNC have pushed out the League of Women Voters and raised the bar so high that (from what I've read) even Lincoln wouldn't have been allowed into the debate in his time. You are cut out of the loop, essentially insuring your already slim chances will be signifigantly lessened.

A student gives you a ticket to attend one the the debates. When you show up you are told you are not welcome. When you protest, the police arrive and escort you out under the threat of arrest.

Would you be pissed? would your supporters be upset?

...I'm trying to get you to leave the Nader baggage out of this, so you can imagine yourself or ANY vialable candidate, being cut out of the dialogue, by two parties acting together as in an old boy country club. And the point I'm asking some to consider is that the Dem party was by no means free of blame in this situation which was a diservice to democracy and us all.

[redqueen]

69. I am *shocked*, *shocked* I tell you...

that the Democratic party was not acting 100% correctly and in the best interest of the public! /sarcasm

Of course they're helping with the rigging of this 'game'. If you only have two teams, you can collude more effectively. Why else do you think we don't have any significant voting reforms like IRV or a holiday on election day? Why are incumbents re-elected 95% of the time (is it more, even?) Voters are being made secondary to the election process. Now legislatures decide who will 'win' or 'lose' by redrawing districts, while we just keep on fighting amongst ourselves.

[G_j]

75. guess I should have warned you

to sit down first! lol

seriously,
I hate the country club mentality that so many of these people entertain.

[Cheswick2.0]

101. oh gee I have never heard the bbbbbut democrats are to blame too

argument before.

I am sorry but you are going to have to provide proof that candidates with 2-3 percent support were ever included in major debates or that Lincoln would have been excluded.

[G_j]

109. I'll do my best

give me some time and I'll get back to you.

[Pastiche423]

70. It has begun to amuse me

when some Dems get their panties in a pinch over Nader.

Have you no shame that your ignorance over what really happened in 2000 shines brightly when you froth and flame the man?

Use your beaner...

SCOTUS
Jeb + Harris + Database Technolgies
Rigged machines

Do any of those ring a bell?

The 2000 was rigged from the get go. Nader was but a wee tiny gnat in the whole charade.

[EastofEdon]

71. shouldn't make any difference to the quality of debate

:shrug:

that's what is important

[ulysses]

72. good on Dennis.

Of course, it's no great surprise to see him hanged in effigy here for daring to even speak to the Great Green Satan. :eyes:

[jpgray]

78. Nader should be welcome enough--I don't see the big deal (nt)

[ComerPerro]

83. cool that Kucinich did that, but

Nader had better not fucking run

[Q]

89. Strange that few if any of these 'nader cost gore the election'...

...stories ever mention the Bush* Republicans role in the 2000 election. It's as if there's no one to blame BUT Nader.

- It's becoming insulting to never hear about the Republican party's concerted effort to steal an election. It seems the Democratic party has let them off the hook and found an easier target in Ralph.

[Iverson]

92. there is usually an obligatory mention in passing ...

and then we're back to witch burning.

[Cheswick2.0]

108. nope

we never say Bush didn't steal the election. We say Nader helped, on purpose. He did you know

[buddhamama]

93. props to Kucinich

he's a big Man.

[mdguss]

114. Dennis Kucinich:

Supported Al Gore in 2000. I think he is a true Democrat, and a good spokesman for the left. I am not going to vote for him. But I respect him.

This said, if Nader runs, Kucinich has to be the nominee's outreach guy to the left. Same goes if Cynthia McKinney runs as a Green. We've got to win this time.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

118. Hmmm.. you left out an option.

Nader has already said he would consider not running if Kucinich is the nominee.

TWL

[DeathvadeR]

116. Boy this sounds familiar.....

A Democratic Party source said on the condition of anonymity this privilege to Nader was revoked.

[Iverson]

119. It's a new day ... and the world didn't end!

positively amazin'!