I wish Dean had turned down the endorsement.

[madfloridian]

I have never seen such hatred as I see here toward each other. If you think this is healthy, this anger, this bitterness, then you are wrong.

He should have turned it down.

I think we deserve to lose it all.

I corrected it on edit. I am just not thinking straight.

[AnnabelLee]

1. Nomination?

:shrug:

[soleft]

2. you mean the endoresement?

[impeach the gop]

3. and your point?

n/t

[Walt Starr]

4. Um....nobody HAS a nomination to turn down

Cart before the horse, dude.

[Patriot_Spear]

5. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water....

Dems who aren't as tuned in as us are going to hear, 'Gore endorses Dean', they're not going to hear the infighting of political junkies.

It's a good thing, relax.

[NJCher]

6. what on earth are you talking about??

?????


Cher

[Cha]

7. DU is not the World! I have friends who

are really excited about this and they are barely into politics!
Don't let a few ruin a Great Moment for you!

[Cleita]

8. Yeah, what are you saying? Is it sarcasm?

I think you didn't quite make your point. Maybe you should take a deep breath and try this post again. :-)

[madfloridian]

22. It was a mistake. I made a mistake with a word.

I just took a deep breath and will take a long break. People keep saying how all this is ok.

It does not look or feel ok to me. I am not tough and hardened. I think we are hurting each other.

I think I have corrected myself enough.

[PVnRT]

9. Ummm, I hope you meant endorsement

I'm a Dean supporter, but, you know, it's still a few months to the convention. He still might lose it.

[MIMStigator]

10. anger and bitterness is healthy in this case

What you're seeing is that there are so many democrats who agree that nominating Dean is either suicidal or probabl suicide.

It's not hate for Dean it's desperation to defeat him in the primary because of desperation to BEAT BUSH IN NOVEMBER.

Why do you think we deserve to lose if our reasons for criticizing Dean are based on thinking we HAVE TO DO IT OR WE LOSE TO BUSH?

i think anger and bitterness is healthy if it's a result of being pissed off that our chances of beating * are going down the tubes don't you?

[Patriot_Spear]

12. Wow- that's plum crazy...

You're wanting to go with the team that lost us the House, the Senate and wouldn't fight for the presdency even when we had the most votes?

Great plan there Pyhrrus.

[MIMStigator]

14. There isn't two "teams". That's an RNC talking point.

Did Dean fight for the presidency when we had the most votes? I don't remember that.

I'm on the team that can win.

[Patriot_Spear]

18. Keep your beltway insiders... I'll vote for Dean. n/t

[Clark Can WIN]

60. Wheeeeewwwwwwwwww.

I think that myth got pretty much blown out of the water today.

[Scott Lee]

13. You're equating reality with your op-in-ion

Reality: Dean's successfull campaign has created some of the nastiest hate and division ever among Democrats.

Your op-in-ion: That Dean can't beat Bush.

Now, care to take another crack at that?

[MIMStigator]

17. The hate and division is because...........

Dean people love Dean and hate the others, and don't think about who has the best chance to win.........and nonDean people think he will lose and they "hate" to lose elections to *.

What is your argument that Dean has the best chance againt * even better than a southerner with foreign policy experience? I haven't heard one yet

[Scott Lee]

25. More op-in-ion

You've taken a broadbrush smear against all Dean supporters (what a surprise) and magically turned that into a fact in your head. Hint: That does not make it a fact in the real world. For instance, I am a Dean supporter and I also like Clark and Kucinich.

Oops, there goes your pipedream. Blown to smithereens.

Now to facts. Here is why Dean has the best chance against Bush-hole:

He has the most support, the ability to energize a heretofore lazy, fickle and disillusioned voter base, and he has already bagged some crossover support from rightminded libertarians and mild conservatives.

It's all about the votes. Say it to yourself until you get it. He or she that garners the most votes, wins.

[PVnRT]

48. I like Dean, yet don't hate the others

Sorry you have to project your own hatred onto others. Are you having fun driving a stake through the party with it?

[MIMStigator]

49. Why don't you hate the candidacies of......

the ones you think might win nomination but will doom us in the general election? I think we should hate what (not "who") stands in our way of beating *.

[RetroLounge]

61. You want us to hate people based on YOUR opinion.

Dude, that's just twisted.

[caledesi]

57. Same here.

As long as the candidates are criticizing *, I am happy.

[bitchkitty]

43. hahahaha!

You're so funny. So who's the one with the best chance of beating Bush? And if he's the one with the best chance, why hasn't he raised the money or garnered the endorsements that Howard Dean has?

The majority of Dean supporters on this board are polite (and naturally overjoyed that Al Gore sees the same thing as we do.) In fact, the majority of all the people on these threads are cool, but some are bitter, jealous and consumed with unreasonable anger at Dean, when it was their man who just couldn't cut the mustard. Unfortunately, it's this minority who cause the kind of discouragement and disillusion that prompt threads like this.

Howard Dean is going to win, and it makes you look spiteful when you make comments like that. He's going to be in the White House in 2004, and if he's not, it won't be because he lost the election.

[MIMStigator]

52. Explain your logic

"So who's the one with the best chance of beating Bush? And if he's the one with the best chance, why hasn't he raised the money or garnered the endorsements that Howard Dean has?"

Do you think the democrat who raises the most because he energizes the base most and garners endorsements Dean has at this point automatically has the best chance of beating *? Alot of people think the base will turn out no matter WHO it is because they hate * and the one who appeals to the middle wins.

I think Clark has the best chance, then Kerry, THEN Dean

[bitchkitty]

65. If Clark and Kerry can't energize the base,

Explain to me how they have a better chance of getting more votes than Bush.

[JVS]

67. Don't count your chickens before they hatch

Don't count on the base showing up to elect someone they don't like. People might find more interesting things to do than bothering to vote for candidates they don't like

[Eloriel]

51. There's no support for the argument that Dean would lose. n/t

[MIMStigator]

53. wel'l hear "tax raiser with no foreign policy experience"

from now until november and it's true enough to stick to Dean. What does he have going for him especially if the economy improves?

[Jacobin]

11. can't titles to threads be edited, now?

No one's been 'nominated'

[Lexingtonian]

15. Not that, exactly

The one problem is Gore's abyssmal timing that just fits his reputation as tin-eared- he picked the same moment all the bandwagon jumpers have, which really cheapens the appearance. Dean not putting it off for a short while doesn't speak for a whole lot of acumen in political timing and depth of effect either. It looks amateurish.

The other is the extent of premature Dean supporter triumphalism, along with their transparent methods and coordination. That is the more important story on DU- the annoyance of the loyal opposition at the overt manipulation tactics, especially as they are being intensified.

[madfloridian]

16. I was watching the debate, and came here. I apologize for the word.

It was not intentional. Good lord, you know I would not do that. I think I just need to leave for a while.

I have never been ugly here, but I fear I might. Good grief. Have at the anger.

I apologize for the word, I was not paying attention. I meant the Gore endorsement.

[ibegurpard]

20. Take a break

It can get pretty ugly here sometimes. Your peace of mind will thank you. :grouphug:

[Jerseycoa]

28. Madfloridian

I can feel your stress. Take it easy. This is all going to work out. Get offline for a while. Take a walk outside. Watch a movie. It's not good to let things get you sick and tired.

Just get a good night's sleep. :hug:

[madfloridian]

19. Dupe

.

[madfloridian]

21. Endorsement, I am correcting a 2nd time.

It was not intentional. It was not anything.

[Scott Lee]

30. When you started this thread, more people corrected your word

than spoke to the issue you raised. I mean, I knew that you are a saavy enough individual to know an endorsement from a nomination and that's why I took it as a given and moved on with the topic. It's hilarious that the natural tendency of so many people is correct others first.

[mmonk]

23. He should not have turned it down

Everybody chill. No hate postings please.

[fishnfla]

24. let the voters decide ! n/t

[Padraig18]

26. They will.

I just find the 'sour grapes' reaction to Gore's endorsement a bit much... :eyes:

[ibegurpard]

27. who's stopping them?

Are you assuming that every other person besides you is a lemming who can't make up their own mind unless Gore tells them so? That's kind of arrogant don't you think?

[fishnfla]

36. YES! one man, one vote. Very selfish, very arrogant!!!

very representative democracy! I dig it!

[xultar]

29. Well maybe not turn it down but ask him to hold off at least until

after NH. Being hungry for success isn't always the way to the top.

[Padraig18]

32. Ummm...

... if you think that any one of the 9 would have 'held off until after NH', you're delusional, IMO. :eyes:

[Scott Lee]

33. To what end, xultar? Gore has been pro-Dean for months.

I see no outstanding benefit to the Democratic cause to have held Gore up on this; save maybe the egos of a few candidates.

[xultar]

40. Allow at least some votes to be cast. Gore isn't an idiot he knows

how the media is. They jumped to a conclusion that it is over. That made the other candidates angry and the voters angry. Gore telling me I need to bet behind Dean. I don't need him to tell me Dean's policies should tell me.

[Padraig18]

41. How many endorsements has WC declined until after NH?

Really, now, that argument is wearing pretty thin. Al Gore is a private citizen who is free to endorse whomever he wishes, whenever he wishes to do so... :eyes:

[Eloriel]

54. Oh goodness, you can't be serious

You don't tell someone who ought to be president and who WAS VP when to endoerse you and even less so, when NOT to!

How preposterous.

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. It's NOT the endorsement that's the problem

It's the timing and the arrogant assumption that everyone should NOW support Dean. That sucked. He should have waited until the primaries were over.

[ibegurpard]

34. Why?

What's the point of an endorsement then? Who else is he going to endorse? Bush?

[Liberal Veteran]

37. ROTFLMAO! Exactly.

The notion that Gore should have waited until after all other candidates were eliminated to endorse the one he wanted to endorse is laughable.

[Padraig18]

38. LOL!

I love the contorted logic from 'every candidates who didn't get endorsed' supporters as to why Gore 'should have waited'...:P

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. He should have waited until

they are whittled down to 2 or 3 candidates. Not now when no votes have been cast. It was an arrogant and stupid move on his part.

[Liberal Veteran]

35. In other words...he should have asked our permission?

*yawn*

[Catherine Vincent]

39. This endorsement will all be forgotten in a week or so.

Don't believe the hype! Democrats are united!

[Closer]

42. I'm not

FUCK all these sour grapes!

Here's a little treat for all of them.

[KittyWampus]

50. Gore Seems So Quizzical In That Photo-Like He's Saying

OMG, What HAVE I done! The only REAL anti-DLC'ers are Sharpton and Dennis....

:D

[philosophie_en_rose]

44. How could he have done that?

Gore offered an endorsement. I feel bad for Lieberman, but Dean could not have turned down an endorsement without slighting Gore and Democrats 2000.

Plus, the real issue in your question has nothing to do with Dean. It's about us. Unfortunately, our side is competing against itself. It is self-destructive, but part of the process. In the mean time, we are all still fighting against the True Enemy(c).

Bush is a cancer that no one deserves. However, if we're still tearing each other apart after the Nomination of the Democratic candidate, we'll lose it all whether or not we deserve it.

[arewethereyet]

46. how bout 'thanks but I wouldnt want it from a guy that would...

... stab his old running mate in the back like that'.

It offends noone but Gore and scored points galore !

[Eloriel]

59. Sure -- can't have Gore supporting the man he thinks is the BEST

candidate -- He should be wedded to the loser forever more. After all, didn't Joe promise to stay out of the race if Gore enetered it?Shouldn't that have bought him Gore's endorsement in return? Who cares what's best for the country? Who cares if Gore even wanted, let alone agreed to such a deal?

[arewethereyet]

45. now THAT would have been a fascinating and powerful move

boy, you got me thinking with that one !

thanks !

[jeanmarc]

55. "I think we deserve to lose it all?"

Sigh. Horrible post.

[caledesi]

56. Do you actually think that any other candidate would have turned

down the endorsement of Al Gore? I don't think so. This was significant and there is no other way around it.

Still, I must say (even as a Dean supporter) that I like the fact that the other candidates have not dropped out. I like to hear them criticize this misadministration. They do it so well.

[DS1]

58. You have to take DU at face value

I mean, what good does it do, arguing with each other all the time, getting nowhere. DU doesn't represent the democratic base by any measure.

[LuminousX]

62. That is what all the hatred is about

They want Dean to handicap himself. He shouldn't. These attacks Democratic supporters are visiting upon Dean are the same kind of attacks that will have to be defended against when Dean gets the nomination. They should be met with in kind.

Let loose the dogs of war.

If Will Pitt is correct and a Civil War is brewing in the Party, I am prepared to fight for the type of party I can be proud to be a member of and that does not include mealy-mouthed pink-tutu kow-tow to the Naked Emperor spineless Pukelites.

They want Dean to give up every advantage he has fought and earned. "Unseal your records!" They cry because they want the GOP to dissect Dean.

[w4rma]

63. Good points. (n/t)

[seaglass]

72. You are wrong. You support Dean so you trust that

there is nothing in his records that will jeopardize him in the general election. Can't you understand that others do not want to jump on the Dean love train only to find that there is something fatal to his campaign in his records?

Why should anyone else believe that Dean believes in open government and he wouldn't abuse executive privilege when his actions point in another direction?

Why can't many Dean supporters see that their position on this is hypocritical - unless of course you support Bush's use of executive privilege.

This is the problem - one standard for Dean, another standard for everyone else.

[Kool Kitty]

64. I don't understand all of this.

Why would Dean turn down such an endorsement? Why should he? It is his right to endorse whoever he likes. Jeez. It doesn't mean that the primaries are cancelled and we can't vote. We can vote. If you don't want to vote for the man that Gore endorsed, don't. Vote for the candidate of your choice. It's still a free country. Please, can we just get a grip.

[JVS]

73. Well said

[lewiston]

66. I guess....

the way one feels about the endorsement depends on who's ox (candidate) was "Gored".

[0007]

68. I think we deserve to lose it all.

How does one give back an endoresement? If Gore wants to support Dean, so be it! 'Tis like telling your mother not to love you.

I'll vote for Dean, and I have that right to chance my mind. But you won't tell me what's healthy and who's pissed.

[JNelson6563]

69. I think the endorsement was great

And DU is hardly representative of the real world. It's laughable. Folks think if they get enough of their own paritsans to come here (along with maybe having several IDs) they can dominate the discussion and be viewed as the majority.

I don't care how many mentions DU has gotten in real press (and most of if really negative--as in making us look like assholes "we're the smartest, greatest, bestest.." that was a prime example). It is merely a DB.

The real world looks much different. Hate is not the prevelant emotion in the Dem party, it's determination. But those who confuse reality with DBs are unaware of this. Blissfully, though shamefully, so.

Real world (aka "adult") Dems and Indies know Bush must go. They haven't spent countless hours whipping themselves into a frenzied hate toward some/any of the candidates. This seems to be a unique characteristic of the on-line personas who left real-life behind. Sadly.

Julie

[CWebster]

70. Why? I thought it was great!

Gees, madfloridian, you know they are going to spin EVERYTHING to target Dean! It can't be avoided, he is pretty much damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. They want to claw down Dean, it would seem, more than Bush.

it will pass and dean's momentum will continue to build.

[SideshowScott]

71. Um..need i remind you that Gore DID win the election??

I think your listening to too many right wing talking heads my freind..No no im not accuseing you of agreeing with them at all..Not even a little bit. But with so much right wing tash talk that have saturated our airwaves and print its not hard to be a bit demoralized..I have fallen for it at times myself..But Gore DID win the election..Bush is a HORRIBLE Pres. And Dean CAN win! And Clark too who I like alot!
Dont fall for it! Keep the faith my freind!!

[Silverhair]

74. Gore's endorsement is a symptom, not the disease.

Turning it down would not have changed anything and would have been a bad move for Dean. There is a huge behind the scenes struggle for control of the Democratic Party between the moderates and the strong leftists. Gore was a defection from the Clinton camp, and an important one. He had to accept the defection. In accepting it the power struggle has become more open, but it did NOT create the power struggle.