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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:03 AM
Original message
My personal decision about Dean
I started out in this primary as a Kucinich supporter, mostly from a "purity of ideology" perspective. As time wore on, I began to warm to Dean. His anti-war stance coupled with his progressive rhetoric appealed to me, but unlike Kucinich he was a top tier candidate and looked like he would make a run for the nomination.

Then the Confederate Flag comment made me rethink my decision. I'd done my research before this, and I realized that Dean wasn't the progressive he appeared to be, but at the time it didn't bother me. The grassroots style of the Dean campaign, and the way he was galvanizing the progressive base of the party held me up to that point, but that comment had me fuming. As a rural southerner who grew up poor in a trailer, I'm very sensitive about stereotypical comments about people down here.

The way I see it, if Dean's comment had been read more like, "Black folks living in the projects who drive '63 Impala's blasting the latest Hip-Hop hit need to be voting with us...” we’d be running him out of the party. In my opinion, poor rural southerners are one of the last groups left that are stereotyped so openly without consequence, and the insensitivity of Dean's comment was enough for me to abandon my support for him in the primary.

Ever since then, I’ve been flirting with supporting other candidates. I considered going back to Kucinich, but I couldn’t get past the fact that he’s an unrealistic candidate, and the Bush nightmare is too real for me to support Dennis no matter how much I know he’s right.

I thought about Edwards. I even called myself an Edwards supporter for a short time, but that was really just a reactionary move against Dean. Edwards is originally from an area about 50 miles from here, and I knew that I’d never have to worry about him unfairly stereotyping the people down here. I also believe Edwards is one of the most electable of the bunch, and I believe he’d wipe the floor with Dubya. The problem is, other than SC Edwards is not competing in a single state. So supporting Edwards is becoming a more and more unrealistic position to hold. In reality, Edwards is probably at least as progressive Dean, and maybe more so. It’s true he did vote for the Iraq War Resolution, and the Patriot Act, but if you take both of their records as a whole, Dean and Edwards have a lot of common ground.

There’s also the problem of electability. I don’t think Dean is unelectable, but I do believe he will have a much harder time beating Bush than someone like Edwards or Clark would. So far he’s running on the depth of outrage that exists in the Democratic Party, and it’s what’s made him the frontrunner in this race, but the moderates in America don’t share our anger, and it’ll take more than just righteous anger to win them over. I’m not talking about the conservatives out there. They’re a lost cause, and honestly we don’t need them in order to win. I’m talking about the people out there who don’t follow any party line. They are the ones we need in the general, and they will be looking for us to have a vision of our own, and so far Dean’s strategy has been more about opposition to the current administration than presenting a vision for the future of this country.

Then came Gore's endorsement of Dean. That coupled with the fact that he's obviously in a position to take the nomination has forced me to ask myself some tough questions. As Paul Begala said: "It's his to lose", and I believe that barring some unforeseen political catastrophe, Dean will be our nominee. I still have not forgiven Dean for the Confederate Flag fiasco, I worry about the sincerity of his progressive stances, and I question his electability, but I’m hoping that I can get past all that as we move toward the general election. I realize there are a lot of people out there that still support other candidates, and I don’t fault them for that, but I believe the writing is on the wall, and it’s time for me at least to get behind someone, put aside my doubts, and work to make that person the next president. I’ve decided that Dean is that guy, and I’m going to do everything I can to make sure he’s our next president.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. welcome to the Dean campaign!
:hi:
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Wow!
I like you a lot, Leftist78! And by the way, Dennis is a better guy.

Let's win! :hi:
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Thanks
and you know, in a perfect world Dennis would be the frontrunner. He's just ahead of his time I guess :shrug:
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. A great post.
Dean is lucky to have you.

You, Padraig and a couple of other people mean that there are at least 4 Deanites who can think ;-)
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. hey, does that include me?
;-)
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Thanks
It's been a long road to this decision, and my biggest support goes to ABB all the way. :)
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. oooch, no response.
ha! ;-)
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
32. typical cowardly hit and run
Big, brave poster. ;-)
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
34. (glaze-eyed kool-aid-induced hypnotic chant): vote Dean, vote Dean
vote Dean vote Dean vote Dean vote Dean

no brain here, can't think
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. Speech given by Gov. Howard Dean in Columbia, South Carolina (December 7)
Restoring the American Community
Sunday December 7, 2003
Prepared for Delivery by Governor Howard Dean in Columbia, South Carolina


In 1968, Richard Nixon won the White House. He did it in a shameful way -- by dividing Americans against one another, stirring up racial prejudices and bringing out the worst in people.

They called it the "Southern Strategy," and the Republicans have been using it ever since. Nixon pioneered it, and Ronald Reagan perfected it, using phrases like "racial quotas" and "welfare queens" to convince white Americans that minorities were to blame for all of America's problems.

The Republican Party would never win elections if they came out and said their core agenda was about selling America piece by piece to their campaign contributors and making sure that wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of a few.

To distract people from their real agenda, they run elections based on race, dividing us, instead of uniting us.

But these politics do worse than that -- they fracture the very soul of who we are as a country.

It was a different Republican president, who 150 years ago warned, "A house divided cannot stand," and it is now a different Republican party that has won elections for the past 30 years by turning us into a divided nation.

In America, there is nothing black or white about having to live from one paycheck to the next.

Hunger does not care what color we are.

In America, a conversation between parents about taking on more debt might be in English or it might be in Spanish, worrying about making ends meet knows no racial identity.

Black children and white children all get the flu and need the doctor. In both the inner city and in small rural towns, our schools need good teachers.

When I was in medical school in the Bronx, one of my first ER patients was a 13-year-old African American girl who had an unwanted pregnancy. When I moved to Vermont to practice medicine, one of my first ER patients was a 13-year-old white girl who had an unwanted pregnancy.

They were bound by their common human experience.

There are no black concerns or white concerns or Hispanic concerns in America. There are only human concerns.

Every time a politician uses the word "quota," it's because he'd rather not talk about the real reasons that we've lost almost 3 million jobs.

Every time a politician complains about affirmative action in our universities, it's because he'd rather not talk about the real problems with education in America - like the fact that here in South Carolina, only 15% of African Americans have a post-high school degree.

When education is suffering in lower-income areas, it means that we will all pay for more prisons and face more crime in the future.

When families lack health insurance and are forced to go to the emergency room when they need a doctor, medical care becomes more expensive for each of us.

When wealth is concentrated at the very top, when the middle class is shrinking and the gap between rich and poor grows as wide as it has been since the Gilded Age of the 19^th Century, our economy cannot sustain itself.

When wages become stagnant for the majority of Americans, as they have been for the past two decades, we will never feel as though we are getting ahead.

When we have the highest level of personal debt in American history, we are selling off our future, in order to barely keep our heads above water today.

Today, Americans are working harder, for less money, with more debt, and less time to spend with our families and communities.

In the year 2003, in the United States, over 12 million children live in poverty. Nearly 8 million of them are white. And no matter what race they are, too many of them will live in poverty all their lives.

And yesterday, there were 3,000 more children without health care - children of all races. By the end of today, there will 3,000 more. And by the end of tomorrow, there will be 3,000 more on top of that.

America can do better than this.

It's time we had a new politics in America -- a politics that refuses to pander to our lowest prejudices.

Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together, that's when we make true progress in this country.

Jobs, health care, education, democracy, and opportunity. These are the issues that can unite America.

The politics of the 21^st century is going to begin with our common interests.

If the President tries to divide us by race, we're going to talk about health care for every American.

If Karl Rove tries to divide us by gender, we're going to talk about better schools for all of our children.

If large corporate interests try to divide us by income, we're going to talk about better jobs and higher wages for every American.

If any politician tries to win an election by turning America into a battle of us versus them, we're going to respond with a politics that says that we're all in this together - that we want to raise our children in a world in which they are not taught to hate one another, because our children are not born to hate one another.

We're going to talk about justice again in this country, and what an America based on justice should look like -- an America with justice in our tax code, justice in our health care system, and justice in our hearts as well as our laws.

We're going to talk about making higher education available to every young person in every neighborhood and community in America, because over 95% of people with a 4-year degree in this country escape poverty.

We're going to talk about rebuilding rural communities and making sure that rural America can share in the promise and prosperity of the rest of America.

We're going to talk about investing in more small businesses instead of subsidizing huge corporations, because small businesses create 7 out of every 10 jobs in this country and they don't move their jobs overseas -- and they can help revitalize troubled communities. We're going to make it easier for everyone to get a small business loan wherever they live and whatever the color of their skin.

We're going to talk about rebuilding our schools and our roads and our public spaces, empowering people to take pride in their neighborhood and their community again.

We're going to talk about building prosperity that's based on more than spending beyond our means, a prosperity that doesn't force us to choose between working long hours and raising our children, a prosperity that doesn't require a mountain of debt to sustain it, a prosperity that lifts up every one of us and not just those at the very top.

The politics of race and the politics of fear will be answered with the promise of community and a message of hope.

And that's how we're going to win in 2004.

At the Democratic National Convention in 1976, Congresswoman Barbara Jordan asked, "Are we to be one people bound together by common spirit sharing in a common endeavor or will we become a divided nation?"

We are determined to find a way to reach out to Americans of every background, every race, every gender and sexual orientation, and bring them -- as Dr. King said -- to the same table of brotherhood.

We have great work to do in America. It will take years. But it will last for generations. And it begins today, with every one of us here.

Abraham Lincoln said that government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from this earth. But this President has forgotten ordinary people.

That is why it is time for us to join together. Because it is only a movement of citizens of every color, every income level, and every background that can change this country and once again make it live up to the promise of America.

So, today I ask you to not just join this campaign but make it your own. This new era of the United States begins not with me but with you. United together, you can take back your country.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10881&JServSessionIdr004=o4jeuqz9a1.app196a&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1321
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=844281
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. I read this a few days ago
I believe this is the way Dean needs to go. Speeches like this really show the vision I was talking about in my origional post. I hope he keeps it up.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. Great post.
You are a thinking man's Dean supporter!

Not that I'm a thinking man, of course. I'm not included in the four who "think," but I try real hard. I swear.
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
10. Im in SC
not really upset about the flag fiasco because to me it really wasn't. Been working the meetup's for months and I like meeting the people there.

I don't buy into only a southern candidate can win. People move every damn day and SC is becoming , what Florida use to be, a place to retire. The demographics are changing and every year I watch Dems getting closer and closer.

I do like Clark but being a person who served in the miltary as an enlisted person I don't trust officers all the quickly. However if he takes it I would vote for him.

Welcome aboard and now go to a local meetup and have some fun.
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I disagree about SC
this place is a Rethug stronghold. I know the lowcoutry seems more moderate, but all the major population centers outside of Charleston are very conservative. We do get a lot of people coming in from outside the state, but I don't think it's enough to change the political landscape yet.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
11. Several things --
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 12:27 AM by Eloriel
Confed flag
I hope you know that there were many Southerners (and some blacks) who understood very well what he meant and did not take offense. Also, Edwards committed a sin at least as bad (I think worse because he understood very well what he was doing) in his denunciations of Dean --TWICE!! -- using George Wallace's own (and others') words to fend off the segregationists: "You don't need to be coming down here and telling Southerners what to do."

Huh? Telling Southerners to vote for a Dem, for their own self-interest is verboten? Please.

BTW, I live in the rural South and know a lot of people who would've been reached by that message -- and STILL will be reached with it minus the flag reference, whether John likes that or not.

ANGER
If you think that's all Dean offers, you've not been paying attention. OR, paying attn to the wrong things. That's mostly what's being reported, and the DNC/DLC andRNC are FURIOUSLY working to set that meme in concrete, but it's just not reality. I hope that matters to you. Here's how to find out about Dean, his campaign and supporters:

http://www.blogforamerica.com/

Be sure to read the Comments from supporters. You should check the blog at least once a day to keep up to date. The Comments are very uplifting, btw. I go read them when I want a boost.


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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. I understood
what he meant with the confederate flag comment, and I agree that poor white southerners need to be voting democratic, but to paint that "pick-up driving, confederate flag on the back" picture is stereotypical, and I think that particular comment is very hard to defend by all but the most blindly partisan Dean supporter. Like I said, I'm trying to get past it, and I'm sure I will, but I will never make excuses for it because I believe it is inexcusable.

as for the anger, I know he's not all about the anger, but that is what most of America thinks, and honestly the truth doesn't matter to them. They will accept the image they are given. It's the Dean campaign's job to make sure the image one of a visionary, and not just an angry opposition candidate. I think the speech in Columbia on the 7th is a step in the right direction.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. It was definitely not the best choice of words
However, what I'm about to tell you might make it a little easier for you to understand why he sometimes says things a little sloppily. He has never had a speech writer or handlers. As a result of this he just says what's on his mind in his own words, politically correct or not. This is part of his appeal, because he's not scripted. The downside to that is that sometimes he's going to say things that he could say a lot better. The thing with the Confederate Flag is one of those times. The up side to the comment is that if any of the other candidates had of said it, it probably would have ended their chances and campaign. It hasn't hurt Dean in the least. The fact that he can keep on plugging right through adversity is proof in and of itself that he can handle Bush.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I agree with KK that it was not the best choice of words
and he's had to pay for that, but I understood what he was saying from the beginning and I think it's an important issue to be airing. The imagery might have been crude but the message was exactly right. We need white confederate-flag-displaying southerners to realize that they actually have a great number of basic needs in common with black southerners (and the rest of us) that are only addressed by Democrats. It's time that anybody who's not fantastically rich in this country realized how badly thay've been screwed by this administration. Dean's less-than-eloquent made an attempt at stating this....perhaps not so unintentionally. If YOU wanted to make a point, might it not serve to make it slightly non-P.C. to increase its "newsworthiness"? I'm not saying that this was the original goal, but it DID seem to work for him that way in the end...
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I think the best way
would have been to say something like: "We need the working people in the south to get behind us because..." If he was speaking directly to an audience in SC I'd advise him to say something like: "We need those unemployed textile workers in SC to get behind us because..."

I think the choice of words was quite bad, but I understand the underlying message. The poor people down here would obviously be better off with Dean in the White House, but you can tell them that without pigeonholing them as pick-up driving, confederate flag loving, rednecks. I think Dean understands this a little better now. We all make mistakes.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Honey, I got those stereotypes all around me
Only I've learned that they're real, live human beings not too different from me, esp. if you factor in our different upbringings (acculturation).

as for the anger, I know he's not all about the anger, but that is what most of America thinks, and honestly the truth doesn't matter to them. They will accept the image they are given. It's the Dean campaign's job to make sure the image one of a visionary

And I think it's OUR jobs not to advance and perpetuate rightwing talking points which aren't true in any case, and that applies to whoever our candidates are, whether we support them personally or not. If you KNOW he's not all about anger, what the heck are you doing saying that as if it's true?

IOW -- whose side ARE you on, anyway?
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Did you read the post?
Honey, I got those stereotypes all around me Only I've learned that they're real, live human beings not too different from me, esp. if you factor in our different upbringings (acculturation).

I clearly said that I AM one of those people that he's supposedly trying to reach except that I don't fit that "redneck" stereotype, and I don't appreciate being painted with that brush. I've already said SEVERAL times that I'll get past it, and I've stated that I support Dean. I'm sorry my support isn't as unconditional as you'd like for it to be. Perhaps you should start a movement to have a purity test at the ballot box to make sure that everyone voting for Dean supports and defends EVERY step he makes.

And I think it's OUR jobs not to advance and perpetuate rightwing talking points which aren't true in any case, and that applies to whoever our candidates are, whether we support them personally or not. If you KNOW he's not all about anger, what the heck are you doing saying that as if it's true?

I'm simply saying that we've got to work to change the perception among the American people about Dean and the anger thing. I'm not saying he's about the anger I'm saying that's the perception, and while you may not believe it, in elections perception is more important than reality.
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's okay to have doubts
or to disagree with some stances. Personally, I don't agree with Dean about the Death Penalty (I believe it's wrong in ALL cases, there's never a justification for state-sponsored murder).

But I agree with him on nearly everything else, and even back when he was in single digits in the polls, I saw Dean as the only one who had The Whole Package: appeal to a wide audience, fund-raising ability and a media savvy campaign team. We are not going to win without any 1 of these 3 things; Dean is the only candidate who can bring ALL OF THEM to the table.

I've also seen the enthusiasm and committment of the Dean supporters, first hand. If Dean stumbles, we fight harder. (Mike Ford said that when Dean has a bad day, we say "Bad day? Oh yeah? Watch THIS!" LOL)
If Dean is attacked, we fight back. This is how we will win in 2004.

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Kazak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. Ever said anything you regretted?
I think Dean's a decent guy, deep down. Worlds better than *.
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. That's exactly why
I said I'll get past it. It wasn't just an offhand comment, it was something he'd said more than once, but he realizes it was a mistake. I'm willing to accept that and take him at his word.
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candy331 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. The media paints
Dean as angry, the Dems as Bush haters, people who disagree as unpatriotic and on and on so each person has to make up their own mind and filter through the junk the media puts out there. That which can be used retain it, the other toss it out, it's only clutter taking up needed space..
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
24. Honest question: What "progessive rhetoric?"
I'd really like to know, becuase I haven't heard any of that..
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. elaborate please
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, but I think it's obvious that Dean's strategy in the beginning was to get the progressive base of the party behind him, and he did that by attacking the a Democratic establishment seen by most liberals as too moderate and too accommodating to Bush and his policies. That's the progressive rhetoric I'm referring to.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. The first post refered to deans "progressive rhetoric"
...and I'm asking, like what progressive rhetoric. It doesn't matter to me whether or not Deans' strategy was to get the progressive base of the party behind him - in all the time I never heard him talk substantively about any progressive ideas. The mans a centrist, and I never saw him say of thing of substance to reflect any differently.

But, then I read this first post, which refered to progressive rhetoric and I thought maybe I missed something. I'm not discussing at this time what strategy dean should take to win - I'm aware that he attacked the establish ment (while saying nothing of substance) which is (rightfully) seen as too moderate and accomodating. But the problem for me is that Dean is one of them - every policy decision of his career can be labeled as moderate at best, and so far I've seen no policy outline or talking points on key issues that indicate to me a single shred of genuine progressive ideology....

...but, like I said - maybe I'm totally missing something. So, show me what I'm missing.

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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. That's why I called it "rhetoric"
it was an attack without substance, and if you want to get right down to it, the only progressives in the race are Kucinich and Sharpton, but I'm willing to compromise to get rid of Bush.

by the way I looked up a couple of definitions of rhetoric so maybe you'll understand me a little better

Rhetoric-

1. fine sounding but insincere or empty language

2. ability to use language effectively, especially to persuade or influence people.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yeah, ok I agree... just making sure
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
25. Consider this.....
"In my opinion, poor rural southerners are one of the last groups left that are stereotyped so openly without consequence, and the insensitivity of Dean's comment was enough for me to abandon my support for him in the primary."
I can relate to what you are saying because I am of a group subject to stereotyping, as well. However, I think his idea was along the lines of lets come out with it and take this away from them.
The way it is operating in state politics here is that people are subtly marginalized. Until you identify people specificly, the people who do the marginalizing cannot be accused of targeting anyone. Hopefully in the next election, we be able to do a better job of identifying, but until you tell people straight up, "these guys are targeting you and screwing you over." the message is not going to resonate widely. We have to do this with everyone affected. Education is taking big hits, and middle class voters are eating it around here. I am working on letting them know they are SPECIFICALLY being sacrificed.
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Interesting...
I see what you're saying, and I agree we need to talk to specific groups and address their concerns; get to their level so to speak. We've just got to make sure we go about it in the right way. I like the way you think :)
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Thanks
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 03:21 AM by loyalsister
:) We recently had an interesting issue come up here. Trailor parks have had loopholes for a long time that have allowed them to kick people out on short notice, raise the rent unfairly, etc. Recently, there was a huge campaign that stormed our state legislature to get some regulatory legislation passed so that people could have more stable living arrangements in trailor parks. It took rallies with trailors park residents, but they got it done. It was very impressive!
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TrueAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
33. Dean can't beat Bush
You need to go back to your orginal instincts. Dean is unelectable. Americans will stay home in droves if Dean is the candidate.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
35. It's up to us to organize after he is elected and keep pushing to the left
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 08:00 AM by lostnfound
I like your thinking.

on edit: And I LOVE the sign in front of the church. Can you give us the background?
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. how come I can't see that sign? all I see is a red X--n/t
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Actually...
I got it from this site: http://www.aboyandhiscomputer.com/churchsigngenerator/index.php

You can make a church sign saying whatever you want. All I did after that was scale it down a little to use it in my sig line.
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DUJunkie Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
38. Like a pair of sandals,
you both flip flop........
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. It must be nice to live in a world
where you never question your own decisions. I'd love to be in a place where everything is cut and dry and no one ever grows enough and to change their opinion on anything.

There's a name for that world. It's called ideological naïvety, and it's a world that too many of us on the left live in permanently. It's very easy to wrap yourself in self-righteous principal, and never accomplish anything because of your unwillingness to compromise. Ideals are a great comfort, but they don't create jobs, they don't stop war, and they never fed a hungry mouth. Sometimes, we have to bend in order to accomplish anything.

If my choices are achieving some of what I want by supporting someone with a chance to win, or standing uncompromisingly by my principles and watching Bush get four more years, I choose the first option, and I think anyone who cares about the state of this country should do the same.
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