If Dean loses in '04, then what?

[ringmastery]

This is a hypothetical question. I don't want 20 posts saying Dean will win.

If Dean loses, will the democratic party be fractured? Will there be a civil war between the centrists/DLC and the liberals?

[DeathvadeR]

1. Vote for Bush.....

I've been waiting forthe Armagedgon to come for long enough. :)

[Cleita]

2. I can't see it.

Unless our election system is really compromised, Bush is really going to go. However, if he is reelected we better start working on impeachment.

[retyred]

3. If Dean loses in '04, then what?

A lot of "I told you so?"



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[rumguy]

4. Hello Fourth Reich.

Nah, that might be a stretch, but it will suck big time.

[TexasSissy]

5. I think we'd see a Gore run in 2008....

either against Hillary, or with Hillary as the VP running mate. Plus there would be some new face candidates.

Life would go on (for those of us who hadn't died from mercury poisoning).

[gauguin57]

7. Nuke-ular war.

Forget the mercury poisoning ... If the Dems lose in '04 (I assume you meant if Dean loses the GENERAL ELECTION in '04), then we will all be dead of radiation poisoning (or out-and-out nuclear disintegration) by 2005.

Singed. Cancer-ridden. Dead as a doornail. Yep.

All Americans will have bought the farm, kicked the bucket, popped our clogs, turned up our toes.

Dead.

Thanks to Georgie, Dickie, Rummy and the whole fascist clan.

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[oasis]

29. Gore was on the outside looking in. Now, as Dean's fortunes go, so go his

[RandomKoolzip]

6. Then we all move en masse to Canada.

I wish I was kidding.....

[whirlygigspin]

8. then we get to invade Syria!

:puke:

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Syria? Or Iran? Which comes first in the PNAC plan?

Michael Ledeen wants Iran really, really badly, but others have said Syria. an interPNAC fight?

[a_lil_wall_fly]

30. Iran would start Armageddon..trust me on this one...Bush would have his...

holy war with Islam.

[Sean Reynolds]

9. If Clark loses in '04 then what?

If Kerry loses in '04 then what?
If Lieberman loses in '04 then what?
If Edwards loses in '04 then what?
If Gephardt loses in '04 then what?
If Braun loses in '04 then what?
If Kucinich loses in '04 then what?
If Sharpton loses in '04 then what?

[POed_Ex_Repub]

10. IMHO It'd be a disaster for Bush...

Deficits, troops STILL in Iraq (Draft?), Economy STILL bad.. and he could no longer effectively cop out by blaming the administration before him on it.. If you look at his policies, they seem to be designed for the short term. You really have to wonder if he wants to win. He'd almost be better off losing and blaming the winner of the election for the problems he's caused when they have to clean up this mess.

[Julien Sorel]

11. Then the so-called 'base' of the party gets swept out.

They've been getting their asses kicked in presidential elections for 35 years now; it's time for these losers to go. Look where Dems are losing ground: the South and the Midwest. Why? Because these jacktards insist on shoving candidates and an ideology down the throat of a country that wants no part of it. The only time the Dems won an untainted election was with Clinton, a business-friendly candidate who was smart enough to know where he had to give ground.


Some of these people blame the DLC or Terry McCauliffe for the loss of the House and the Senate, but look where the seats have been lost: the South and the Midwest, the most conservative regions of the country who would be guaranteed to reject a leftist platform. How are you supposed to compete there by moving further to the left?

These people are losers, and the one good thing that could come out of a Dean candidacy would be that their power over the party would hopefully be broken. And it's about time. Hearing them drone on with their conspiracy theories and mindless, two-faced anti-corporate nonsense, watching them live in a state of denial, is embarrassing.

[jeter]

14. If Dean loses...

It will become a fight between Gore and Clinton for 2008.

Advantage Clinton.

[rumguy]

21. I just don't buy that Dean is that far left

If opposing an immoral and possibly illegal war makes one a leftist extremist god help this country...

I can understand discounting him based on the fact that he comes from a small Northeastern state, and that his personality/personal style won't "sell" in certain parts of the country - but he's no Kucinich, not even close.

[Julien Sorel]

44. It's not that he's a leftist; it's that his supporters are.

Look at this board, for example. Several of the most insane Deanites voted for Nader in 2000. Pretty much everyone knows what Dean is about (although I think many of his fans are still fooling themselves about him, whatever they might say); but he's a creature of leftist support. They're the ones who got him off the ground; they're the ones who slavishly pour their money into him when he 'asks' (although he doesn't really need them any more, so one of their rationalizations for supporting him, that they could control him with their donations, is about to go away, I think).


Watch their rhetoric. They are the True Democrats; the rest of us are DLC pansies, pink tu-tu Democrats, dupes of the Republicans, Republicans, Republican-lite, or plain old deluded Kucinich supporters. These are also the same people, practically speaking, who were for McGovern, and whose bleatings ensured that the Democrats would have a platform that alienates the South and many in the Midwest. They're the people who tore the 1968 Democratic Convention to shreds, and this party with it. They're the people who have consistently chosen to indulge their anger and delusions rather than fashion a winning strategy. He's their candidate, and his defeat will be their defeat; his rout will be their rout.

[RetroLounge]

55. boo hoo and then some

:cry:

[Leftist78]

23. yes that's exactly what we need

the party needs to move more toward the center because everyone knows it's dominated by leftists. I mean it's not as though most Democrats in Congress supported Bush's war, or the Patriot Act. No the power base of the party didn't support that. It's not as though the Dems lost in 02 because of a centrist Bush-lite agenda. They'd' never do that, and NAFTA was never passed because Democrats were in power right?

Of course the last time we had a Dem running for prez he wasn't a business loving centrist was he? Yeah he was a left-wing nutcase wasn't he? Come to think of it, hasn't he moved to the right since then and endorsed one of the "outsider" DLC types like Lieberman or Kerry?

You know, I think you might be right about the mainstream Democratic party being so anti-corporate too. I mean when you look at the donor list in the last presidential campaign you won't find a single corporate donor on the Dem side.

Let me know when you come out of Bizarro world. :eyes: The left of the party has been shut out of things for a long time.

[RummyTheDummy]

37. Boo Hoo NT

NT

[Leftist78]

39. nice reply

maybe you want to elaborat on your points a little? Here, I'll try for you.

1. Boo-I suppose you could be trying to say that I'm a little unrealistic in my portrayal of the state of the Democratic Party. Or it could be that you're trying to scare me with a scary ghost-like response

2. Hoo-At first I thought you'd misspelled "who", but then I thought, "no way an intelligent response like that could contain such an obvious spelling error." So I guess you were giving me your impersonation of an owl. In which case, I have to give you 3 out of a possible 5 stars.

[minkyboodle]

25. as if we had any power over the party at all

I won't let the door hit me ass the ass either when I leave (if you represent mainstream democratic politics). Good bye and goodluck tough guy.
Scott
(I wonder what other clark supporters feel about your attitude I had been warming up to the guy but you do wonders for him really)

[liberalcapitalist]

35. Clark is more "left" than Dean

And Clark is part of the establishment, not Dean, dude! Your whole point makes no sense.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Wow I feel myself having an ideological rift with you

Which "loser" base are you including in that? Laborers unions? Teachers union? Cops? Firefighters? Women? Minorities?

[regnaD kciN]

45. Translation:

All of us (except BillyBunter and Joe Lieberman) will be told to get the f*** out of the party so the "centrists" can take over.

:puke:

[JVS]

53. Go join the GOP

Seriously, the Democratic party is the only major party where the liberals have any say, they are not going to leave. Maybe if all the moderate jacktards joined the GOP they could prevent it from ruining the goddamned country. I'm tired of people who want the democratic party to be the party for conservatives who just couldn't bear to register as Reepublicans. If you don't like being with loser liberals get the fuck out!

[killbotfactory]

12. Then we get four more years of Bush

And Democrats start pandering to republicans again...

Thankfully, Dean will defeat him.

[dolstein]

13. Well, I can pretty much guarantee that if Dean loses

the Dean supporters around here will say that the loss had absolutely nothing to do with Dean being too liberal. They'll probably add that a Bush victory was inevitable, that anyone the Democrats nominated would have lost.

Why do I say this? Because this is exactly what the McGovern supporters around here say about the 1972 election.

[Julien Sorel]

16. Nawwwww.

If Dean loses, it will be because he wasn't far enough to the left; it will be because the party failed to unite behind him, and then there will be the conspiracy theories. The Clintons secretly sabotoged him; the DLC made a deal with the Republicans; BBV kicked in; people like me, who despise Dean, didn't hope enough for a Dean win (a failure in magic thinking); some of these people would say the stars were against him and there's nothing that could have been done.


If Gore ran such a shitty campaign in 2000 and won the popular vote, what would that say about Dean's great grassroots movement, his internet donations, his people powered campaign, if he gets shellacked, which I fully expect barring some kind of catastrophe?

[DemBones DemBones]

24. Plus they'll be mad at all of us who are now saying Dean can't win.

I think Bush can be beaten but I don't think Dean can beat him. Look at it this way: Dean has already annoyed a lot of Democratic political junkies like me with his arrogance and petulance, and his flipflops on issues. And we've found out about his record and paid attention to the inconsistencies between what he says and what he's done. So he has to win our votes, as well as the undecided Democrats' votes, and the Greens' and independents' votes. I don't see him being able to do it, expecially as I think Nader will run if Dean's the nominee.

By the way, I voted for McGovern in 1972 and think it was the best presidential vote I've ever cast. But I don't think Nixon was unbeatable that year; it's possible someone other than McGovern could have won. And it's possible McGovern would have won, if not for Eagleton. Eagleton probably cost him the election by not telling the truth about his mental health history. After it was leaked in the press, and McGovern said he had complete confidence in Eagleton, Eagleton should have resigned from the ticket to save the campaign. As it happened, there was concern about Eagleton's fitness and McGovern felt he had to go back on his word and cut Eagleton loose, making the nominee look bad. Of course the prejudice against mental illness wasn't fair to Eagleton but he caused the problem by not being open with McGovern at the start.

[JNelson6563]

49. yeah, Dean's too liberal

pretty idiotic statement. Colour me shocked.

Julie

[Pallas180]

17. sh_t, there'll be a civil war in the US, never mind anyplace else and

a big exit from this country by those who can afford it.

[izzie]

18. We try in 2008

Same old, same old. Life goes on and we just get mad.

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. I don't think Bush would live through 4 more years

Someone would feed him some poisoned brownies or something because too many people hate him. Actually, they might not because of Cheney. What president needs Met-Life when Cheney is their VP? Talk about a fool proof life insurance policy!

Well, we could always take up arms and overthrow the government. Since Bush has all our troops out of the country in Iraq and Afghanistan it could easily be done.

(I am kidding!)

[Pallas180]

28. I think they've thought of that & are trying to make Homeland Security the

new SS to roust the real patriots at home. Next comes the concentration camps....oh. I forgot. We've already got that at Guatanamo.

[jsw_81]

20. We dig in and prepare for 2006 and 2008

What are we supposed to do, raise the white flag and give up? I don't think so.

[FDRrocks]

22. I move.

because the Democrats tell me liberalism is dead. I move. They cannot elect a liberal. I move. The right wing controls it all. I move. I obviously don't belong here. I'm liberal/

[DemBones DemBones]

26. "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, "

and it would be a time to fold. To emigrate. To seek residence elsewhere.

[Pallas180]

31. hmmm. are there still wide open spaces in Australia? Costa Rica might

be cheap.

[minkyboodle]

27. apparently we aren't welcome FDRrocks

and I know when to leave the party when no one wants me there
Scott

[Pallas180]

33. Actually if they're outsourcing jobs, maybe Americans could get a job

in another country that they cant get here.

[Pallas180]

34. OTH-since dimson has devalued the dollar, our money won't go as far

abroad.

:puke:

[a_lil_wall_fly]

32. I would too...a small island in the south pacific

[Pallas180]

36. U don wanna do that. France has radiated the islands in the S.Pacific

come to think of it, all these governments suck...all
WMD should be destroyed. Where are the fundies on that -
that should be their goal instead of burning books.

[tlb]

38. Yes, there will be a party civil war.

Whether this will result in a move to the Greens, or a whole new " Liberal " party remains to be seen. But yes I expect a major fracture in the democratic party.

And Dean will lose fair and square. It's only the last several days I have begun to believe Dean will after all be the nominee. I really thought common sense would manifest itself and Gephardt would be the nominee.

Not going to happen it seems. The kamakazie momentum seems too strong.

[Tinoire]

41. Well the "Dems" will spend 4 more years wailing and gnashing their teeth

that Nader, the Devil incarnate, and his Green goons stole the election, yet again, from Gore/Dean and well... if Dems lose this election, one that was handed to them on a silver platter surrounded by water-cress, because we are too beholden to corporate interests to offer people a clean, distinctly different and energizing choice (after having had 3.4 years to come up with a plan), then in 2008 I will be somewhere "over there" building a new party with people whose values are closer to my own. I will want nothing more to do with people who enabled a war, are pro-occupation or come out to stump for Republocrats in San Francisco.

[Skwmom]

42. I think the Democratic party

will see a mass exodus. In addition, the Republicans will make significant inroads with Hispanic voters (who will want to be associated with such a losing party).

Once Rove is finished with Howard Dean the Democrats will be painted as a bunch of hate filled, wacko, lying hypocrites who are not only weak on defense but willing to abuse national defense for political gain (Dean's own prior statements combined with the Rockefeller memo will be used to drive this point home).

The downside potential for Dean is huge. Rove is salivating for Dean because he is the republican party's best chance for four more years of Bush AND the republican party's best chance for destroying the Democratic party.

[Kremer]

43. Seriously, I'd move to another country!

I'm probably going to move overseas but it's mainly for career. I think this place will only get awfully worse. Plus more wars, draft, Michael Jackson, etc.

[imax2268]

46. We will be in a bunch of trouble...

if Bush get's four more years...

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romberry]

48. Even if we lose, we win.

Dean is helping to reinvent and reinvigorate the party. Goldwater lost by a landslide in 64 but he reshaped his party and becamse their hero. Deanocrats will do the same.

[webkev]

50. You Deanies are way too confident..

at least clarkites respect the fact that anyone could win,
stop starting new threads assuming Dean will win..
because in my mind.. he won't win.. he will come close , but he won't get the actual nomination
but he might, so I don't assume Clark is president in my posts,,

[JVS]

52. LOL! WTF! "at least clarkites respect the fact that anyone could win"

ummm yeah right. Clarkites are the most devout spouters of "Only my candidate can beat Bush" That isn't respecting "the fact that anyone could win"

[RetroLounge]

56. I'm sorry, but some Clarkies and the word respect

have not yet met each other.

Look above for examples...

[Fla_Democrat]

51. The supporters of every other candidate will

think, "If only my guy/gal had been nominated, this would not have happened."

Sorry, that is the way it is.

Think 2000, Green vs. Dems, on steroids.

Will the party be fractured? It's fractured now. There are 9 candidates, all across the board, representing different niches of the party.

Will it lead to a civil war? No, there will be a lot of hurt feelings, and a boatload of resentment, but that's it.

[jpgpenn]

54. As I see things now.

I think the party will be much much stronger "when" Dean loses.

Many speak of how Bush is very polarizing within the country itself. I see Dean as not only being polarizing for the country but he will deeply polarize our Democratic party.

From the begining Dean has gone after Clinton and what he has built up. Dean wants a whole new direction for this party. With Gore coming out early and endorsing him, this shows me there was alot of behind the scenes things going on beween them. These two guys are basically attempting to take over the party. This will backfire in the worse way against them.