tell me everyone, why would someone other than Dean be stronger?

[CRYINGWOLFOWITZ]

*Note I am not bashing any dems.* Take the two behind Dean, Clark and Kerry. Kerry raised a mere $4 million last quarter, compared with Dean's $12 million. Since he started late, Clark has only raised $2.5 million. how are these people, who can't even beat Dean, going to beat Bush? How do you beat Bush when you exaust your funds winning the nomination and have no funds to campaign elsewere, and no infrastructure in any state outside of Iowa and NH? Does a military resume make up for this?

[poskonig]

1. Well,

Kerry is owed the presidency, and everyone in the country would recognize this.

With Clark, he also has military cred, so every voter is going to automatically vote for him, just like they voted for Cleland in 2002 and McGovern in 1972.

[Guaranteed]

10. LOL

That was very subtle. You had me played straight until the very last words.

[KittyWampus]

30. Clark Has Experience As A Diplomate, Commander, & Strategist

He's a proven leader who is on good terms with European leaders.

His military service gives him heavy artillery to use against Junior... which Dean lacks.

Clark therefore can, and has, the authority to cut Pentagon funding so that those monies can be used for social programs. Something Dean can NEVER do- although I doubt he would even want to.... Dean is most likely hunky dory with the MIC.

Clark also has no issues regarding locked files so he can aggressively go after Cheney & Junior.

[Gloria]

71. Clark also has taught economics and worked at OMB...so he

knows about budgets and fiscal problems....He's very well-rounded and can get angry when he has to...AND, he handles the RW TV bunch very, very well....as well as Kerry has in the past.

But even more impressive is his direct and deep connection to the troops...practically every time I see him, he's moved by the plight of our troops.
As things move forward, he is the one that can put the face of this damned "war" in the minds of Americans...the human costs to both the troops and civilians.

He tears up when he describes Kosovo and Bosnia....it's deep within him.
Because of his experience, he becomes the ULTIMATE anti-Iraq war candidate....(since Kerry, realistically, seems to be out of the running at this point).

[La_Serpiente]

2. You're putting it in terms of money

and I don't think money is the primary indicator of whether a candidate is doing awesome or not. I do concede that that it is a contributing indicator.

And besides, no votes have been cast in the primaries yet. It's not even January and people are calling the shots.

[bitchkitty]

7. This is American, hon -

I do concede that that it is a contributing indicator.

A very significant contributing factor. Do you know how much a television ad costs?

[La_Serpiente]

8. So are you saying that money runs politics nowadays???

Al Sharpton said it best that this primary should be a campaign of ideas, not about money.

You can be the candidate with the most money up there, but that doesn't entitle you to anything. You have to win the battle of ideas on the ground. Money helps with that battle for the nomination, but so does geography, personal background, candor, and other various indicators.

[bitchkitty]

27. You need money, a lot of money,

to campaign against the right wing machine. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant.

[bearfartinthewoods]

70. the money will come to the right man when the right man is nominated

unless all the Dean supporters decide to pout and withold their support.

[bitchkitty]

80. As a Dean supporter, I think that

your comment is crap. Compare the behavior of the Dean supporters and the Clark or Kerry supporters (esp. Clark). I think that what we are seeing on this board since Gore endorsed Dean is childish, spiteful envy, and unfortunately, that reflects on Clark. I don't like Clark, but I don't have to slander him - his supporters are doing just fine without my help.

[KittyWampus]

32. You Realise Clark Has Raised A Helluva Lot More Than 2 Million, Right?

[JohnKleeb]

68. A 9 way tie at 0 as I put it

Sigh I agree with you on it being about money.

[JVS]

3. Gephardt might be as strong based on Geography and labor ties.

Other than that Dean is way stronger

[maddezmom]

4. All three would be better than bush* in the WH

Does a military background make a difference? For some voters. I agree, if the other candidates want to compete they need to start raising some big cash and kick their campaign in high gear. Dean's campaign is the one kicking butt on raising money and motivating first time voters.

Does anyone know where you can find out how much a campaign has raised or do you really have to wait until after 4th qtr to get a clear picture?

[gmoney]

5. If you nominate him, the funds will come...

The DNC (and to a lesser extent MoveOn) will bankroll the official nominee, and I think the "anybody but Bush" crowd is just waiting to see who emerges before they put in their money.

In a way, putting your money behind a candidate in the primaries is likely to mean your money ISN'T going to defeat Bush. Say you donated to Graham's campaign... when he dropped out, your money dropped out with him.

I've thrown a few bucks Dean's way and Kucinich's way, but once we have a nominee, I'll throw all I can afford into the war chest and then start working locally.

But you're right... to some extent people are voting with their dollars in the primaries, and fundraising now is something of an indicator of ability to raise funds for the race.

[muchacho]

6. well....

Clark is stately, paternal and has patriotic cred.

I've not put my money on any horse yet but I belive if the economy recovers well enough to spin (which looks likely) and Iraq starts to stabelize I tink then Clark has a batter chance at defelecting the mounds of mud from Team Rove.

[mmonk]

9. my honest concern about Dean

is the general election. The last non southern Dem to win was JFK. I like the odds to be in our favor as much as possible. This does not however, mean Dean can't do it. He could given that some said he wouldn't be doing this good.

[Beaker]

11. coupla things-

First of all- Dean's clumsy use of the southern stereotype with the confederate flag comment, followed up by his shooting himself through both feet when he said regarding his medical deferment: "I probably could have served..." And then there's the whole thing about the sealed files- after the ultra-secretive machinations of the current junta, the last thing we need in a candidate is a similar penchant for keeping things from public view and knowledge.
The lack of racial diversity on his campaign staff is also a bothersome thing to a number of people that i've spoken to.

I guess that was several things...for starters.

[HFishbine]

29. "The lack of racial diversity on his campaign staff "

To make this claim, you must surely have some information about the number of minorities on his staff. Care to share, or are you just blowing hot air?

[Beaker]

35. ummmm....maybe you should learn how to read entire sentences-

and comprehend their meaning.

as in: "The lack of racial diversity on his campaign staff is also a bothersome thing to a number of people that i've spoken to.

or perhaps you were directing your comment to the people that have expressed their concern to me...?

I didn't make the claim that he has a lack of racial diversity on his staff, I made the claim that people have expressed that concern to me...and yes, I stand by that claim.

[HFishbine]

36. How convenient

Some un-named people, have an impression from sources that you are unaware of that casts a bad light on Dean.

Okay, so then the question is, what do YOU think? Do you think they are right to have those concerns? Do you think there is a lack of racial diversity in the Dean campaign?

[Beaker]

50. Since I'm not a Dean supporter-

I don't really know much about his campaign staff...do you have specific information that indicates that he does have a racially diverse campaign team? or are you just making so much noise about one particular comment in my original post...?(BTW- do you have any opinion on the other points I mentioned about Dean's potential weaknesses?)
My point in mentioning it, and phrasing it in the way that I did, is that there are obviously people out there who have taken notice, and for whom this is, or could be an issue...If it's not in fact true, and based on your persistence with the issue, I assume that you must have information to the contrary, in which case I'm sure that you can help set the record straight, and enlighten us all with the names of at least some of the minorities in the upper eschelon of the Dean campaign...?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

52. "shooting himself through both feet"

after also going thru the kneecaps.

Dems don't see this now because they just don't think this way. The general election will show that middle of the road Americans think otherwise, and place a much greater importance on them.

[Beaker]

60. thank-you.

I didn't hear Dean make the comment when he did, but I did hear it later, and the moment that I did, I knew that he cannot be elected.
It simply won't happen- He's given Karl Rove all the ammunition that he's going to need.

[BootinUp]

12. Couple minor points

Clark had 3.5 million in like two weeks after he announced, Clark will be a close second to Dean for the 4th Qtr. Different amounts have been suggested, I've heard 10-12 million tossed around lately.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/index.asp

Debunking a myth:

Clark opted into Federal funds for the primary. This does not apply to the general election. Also, they have not said whether they would or wouldn't take federal match against bushie.

Back to your question: My take on Dean is that he is a skilled campaigner/politician. I like many of his policy positions. I like his passion. The way I see it he is more vulnerable to the RW attack machine then Clark. Also when he is attacked I do not always care for his reaction in terms of expression/demeanor however, he is getting smoother in this regard.

edited: added url to campaign fund raising data

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. But nothing sticks to Dean

And if you really think about it, if anyone else had of made that Confederate Flag comment it most likely would have sunk them for good. Clark is entirely untested as a candidate. He's never been elected to any office. I'm not going to argue that as a candidate he seems to be pretty solid, but everyone needs to consider the fact that not a one of us has any idea how he will hold up in a highly contentious and downright dirty campaign that we all know is going to be run against whoever the nominee is. The only one I know of who has been through this kind of campaign and come out on top is Howard Dean in the 2000 governor's race, which took place just 6 months after he signed Civil Unions. Dean is just as good a candidate as Clark is, and I think he's better simply because he has more than foreign policy and national defense to cite for experience. But Dean is a proven winner and he's NEVER lost any race he's been in, not even one. He is the best campaigner out of everyone and he knows how to win against a hate campaign. These other factors are all just as important, if not more important than everything else. If Clark had of won an election like Dean did in 2000 I might be really torn about who to support right now. But he didn't. I will say this much, there is no way I foresee Dean not giving Clark an important role in his administration. I'm not so sure it would be VP, but I can definitely see Dean appointing him to handle the defense/military and having Clark play a pivotal role in cleaning up the mess in Iraq.

Clark is good, but I think Dean is better. Both of them in a Dean administration would be the ultimate. I really want to see Edwards as Attorney General, too, because whoever gets that spot needs to be willing and able to go after the special interests and lobbyist groups, and he has that experience and willingness.

[mmonk]

16. Edwards as Attorney General

now there's an idea.

[blm]

18. HAH. That's just the media LETTING Dean get away with it now.

The teflon is already chipping now that Rove thinks Dean has the nomination.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. Yeah, it's chipping so bad that Gore endorsed him

It's chipping so bad he's leading in the national polls outside the margin of error. It's chipping so bad he overtook Gephardt even more in the latest Iowa polls. It's chipping so bad that he has enough support in NH according to the polls that even if your candidate got all the undecideds he STILL can't poll higher than Dean. It's chipping so bad that he's raised almost $300,000 in the past 24 hours alone.

Yep, the Dean teflon sure is chipping. Oh yeah, and the 6 weeks left before Iowa is an eternity and Kerry is just "pacing himself" and biding his time to make his move to overtake Dean, too.

:eyes:

I thought I put you back on ignore. Shame on me for not doing so.

[blm]

26. Yes, it is chipping. Check your Newsweek.

Dean is Bushlite AND Cheneylite.

[KaraokeKarlton]

33. I don't need to read any articles

and the media is routinely wrong about Dean being hurt by things. In fact, every bit of the media's "conventional wisdom" regarding Dean has been horribly wrong. Incidentally, every prediction you've made about Dean has been wrong as well. Perhaps you should consider finding a better source of information or at least think for yourself rather than listening to the media. Just a suggestion.

[blm]

41. Neither does Bush.

Rove already wrote the script. Commander-in-Chief vs. The Angry Democrat.

Play your part.

[KaraokeKarlton]

43. I hate to point this out

but the only "angry democrats" I see are those who oppose Dean. Dean isn't angry. Dean supporters aren't angry. We have hope, determination and a goal in sight. I've seen more anger and negativity from the other campaigns and their supporters than I've ever seen from the Dean camp.

[blm]

46. HAHAHA...of course you have.

What was that famous line of yours again about Kerry being an oozing shit polyp? You are unbelievable with your whining about others when you spout profanities and irrational anger against a heroic lawmaker like Kerry.

[KaraokeKarlton]

47. Who's "whining"?

Really now. Listen to yourself. All you do is whine. In fact, I've yet to read a post by you that didn't include whining. That's why I put you on ignore in the first place.

Anything I have or haven't said about John Kerry has been said to annoy people such as yourself who have devoted your life to insulting and attacking Howard Dean and his supporters. I'm not angry and I've never met an angry Dean supporter. Dean supporters are full of hope, smiles and motivation. I've never seen such a massive collection of positive thinking in my life as I've seen in the Dean campaign.

[Scott Lee]

55. Notice blm lambasts the press and then endorses it within two posts

Hypocrite hunting. The sport of the common folk.

[blm]

76. That was rude, as usual. I said the teflon is chipping

and the Newsweek article supports that. They could have done the stories about draft dodging and Biden-Lugar and sealed records earlier this year but they WAITED till they were sure he was the nominee. My posts are consistent. I always said the teflon they gave him will be stripped. And it slowly will.

[Nashyra]

67. Nothing sticks to Dean because the media

doesn't want it to and the media sets the tone. They were the first to come out and say that "nothing sticks" I still think that the WH prefers to run against Dean rather than Clark because they will have more mud to throw at Dean, however that does not mean Dean can't win, it means that the party has to recognize the problem they will have and come up with the solutions now rather than later. The RW will make the military the issue even though *'s record is more dismal but we will not get a fair shake in the media, we need to hammer him now and work on the solutions ahead of time. Dean supporters and all party supporters have got to put their collective heads together and find a strategy that will help Dean if he gets the nod. Denying there is not a problem makes it bigger.

[KittyWampus]

81. NOTHING Sticks To Dean? Are You Niave? This Is Scary!

Dean has been annointed with TEMPORARY Teflon.

For anyone to suggest that this is something INTRINSIC about Dean or his campaign is very... myopic.

[Schmendrick54]

82. Campaign Finance Questions

Hi Jim,

I have a concern about campaign financing which may be based on erroneous information on my part. Here is my understanding of the situation; I hope you or someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Candidates such as Dean and Kerry (and Bush) who opted out of matching funds can spend as much money as they can raise between now and the "end of the primaries" which I understand to be essentially right after the Rep. Convention in September.

Other candidates such as Clark, who accept matching funds can only spend some fixed amount (around $46 Million, I think) during this same period (ending in early September).

After this period, from September to the election, it is my understanding that both nominees will be limited to some fixed amount of campaign spending (provided by the the Government - I think it is about $85Million). I think these are legal limits which neither Bush nor his opponent can "opt out" from.

Can anyone verify or correct this understanding?

If it is true, then the big concern for me is how would Clark overcome the "propoganda deficit" during the late summer when Bush would be blasting him and Clark would presumably be prevented from responding until September. I asked a similar question once before; particularly, in this situation could Dean spend money blasting Bush (if he ahd not spent it all by convention time)? Would it make a difference if Dean was the VP nominee?

Regards,
Schmendrick

[Skwmom]

13. Because you can't beat a sitting president who has a

credibility issue with a Democratic nominee who has a credibility issue and who will be viewed as weak on national defense and as dishonestly using national defense for political opportunity.

[Killarney]

15. My concern

with Dean would be the foreign policy. But, on the other hand, my concern with Clark would be the political experience. That's why I think a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket is our ticket to win.

[LuminousX]

28. Then why aren't any of the other candidates winning the base?

The point goes, if they can't beat Dean, then how would they beat Bush.

At the end of the day, any of these 9 can beat Bush, hands down. Why? Because the very second one of them gets the nomination, they will have my full support, every ounce of my energy. If you cared about this country, if you wanted to really get rid of Bush, you would pledge the same. And if each of us did that, Bush wouldn't stand a chance. If you believe Dean can't win, then we are all f_ed because belief creates reality.

[blm]

44. Because they are geared to beat Republicans more than other Dems.

Dean had lots of experience attacking Democrats in Vermont. He had no consideration for fellow Dems.

I blame Kerry for being the best candidate and assembling the best team out of all the candidates to beat Bush - however, he should have spent more time assembling a team to attack Dean's lies and inconsistencies, when he first spouted them and gained ground OFF of those lies.

[Padraig18]

49. IOW, he's clueless as to how the nominating process works.

I'm not sure I want someone so gourdy-dumb to run for President, if he's too clueless to even figure out the mechanics of how to secure the nomination... :eyes:

[blm]

54. Nope, Miss Rolled eyes.

He expected a fairer fight amongst Democrats where some greater level of honesty would be in place. How could he ever expect the level of dishonesty Dean would bring to his attacks against other Dems?

[Scott Lee]

56. Hey Padraig - blm thinks you're a "she"

Man when these folks are wrong....they get EVERYTHING wrong, no?

[Padraig18]

61. Yeh!

LOL! :P

[slinkerwink]

64. ha, want to roll eyes with me since you're a Miss Rolled Eyes?

:-p

[Padraig18]

65. Sure, sweet thing!

:P

[blm]

17. They hold up to closer scrutiny and Dean does not.

Think if you were a Dem party spokesman going on the various networks throughout the general election. You thought you were going to have the upperhand on a few key issues to pound Bush.

Now, instead of touting a war hero you have to defend a perceived draft dodger making it more difficult to attack Bush for his vacation from the military.

Now, instead of holding up a solid record built on Democratic principles, you are stuck defending someone who has switched positions in an election year conversion to populist issues.

Now, instead of attacking Bush for his lies and inconsistencies, you have to defend the gaffe-prone Dean for his.

Now, instead of pointing to Bush's lack of foreign policy experience that brought danger to this nation, you're stuck defending Dean's lack of experience.

"Yawn" and calling the other person a "Dean-basher" isn't going to help that spokesperson on camera. Even while it provides chuckles for some of you on message boards.

[sendero]

20. Dean Basher

:)

Yeah, helped me :)

[Padraig18]

21. Simple question:

If Sen. Kerry is all you say he is, then why isn't the base supporting his run? If he can't even attract enough Democrats to get the nomination, then how in God's name can he attract enough voters to beat Bush*? Therein lies the flaw in your 'argument', blm. :eyes:

[Monte Carlo]

24. I think the IWR was the biggest turn-off, myself.

When I heard that Kerry would vote 'yes', I was thrown for a loop. It had me seriously question my loyalties. I was an inch away from going to Dean. Personally, I think many Democratic voters see only that IWR vote in Kerry, and that is why he has fell way behind since then.

[blm]

25. IWR and the misinformation surrounding the entire issue.

Dean was very clever painting himself as antiwar when he wasn't and painting Kerry as prowar when he wasn't and the media was complicit in promoting the terms of the issue in black and white.

Because they only 'allowed' Dean his inconsistencies in the primary to assure his nomination doesn't mean the teflon is permanent.

Most voters don't even know who John Kerry is while many have already heard of Howard Dean who was being spoonfed to the public by the corporate media.

[Padraig18]

31. Some cheese with your sour grapes?

When a 4-term Senator can't even get 'adequate' media exposure, maybe it's HIS campaign's fault, and not the media's. Ya think, maybe, blm? :eyes:

[blm]

38. Wrong. Miss Rolled Eyes.

Frank Luntz focus grouped NH voters last March using MTP appearances for the candidates. For two hours he grilled them pushing Joe Lieberman as the most worthy. Almost everyone in the poll group settled on Kerry. A few on Lieberman, and noone else received one vote even.

Dean's antiDem party rants soon started to take hold. I guess you never noticed that all of Luntz'z future focus groups always included several people who were scathing towards Kerry and Luntz, himself, would always say that Dean was the straightshooter and honest and that's why people liked him. Luntz after debates always declared Dean the winner, though many Dean supporters even would note that Dean didn't perform well.

But, if it helps you sleep at night, keep rolling your eyes at anything I and others say. Consider us enemies to the Dem party because WE want to save it from deception and disaster.

[Padraig18]

40. I don't consider you malcontents.

I consider you sore losers with a 'savior complex'.

[blm]

42. Attack me all you want. It keeps you from addressing the facts

about Dean's media ride.

[Padraig18]

45. you present no facts.

Only pre-existing prejudices arranged so as to give the appearance of critical thought.

[blm]

53. fact...Dean was given a press plane in June

.

[Padraig18]

62. 'Given'?

Wouldn't that be 'paid for'? :eyes:

[redqueen]

66. Got a link?

I've heard this many times... it would be nice to see it refuted once and for all.

Thanks.

[redqueen]

63. Response?

Hello?

[RetroLounge]

69. Wait a minute. You Base your decisions on Frank Luntz?

BBBbbbbwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhahahahahahhaah

Ooh, wait, me too: :eyes:

[blm]

77. Frank Luntz tells plenty of people what to do.

Republicans and the gullible masses. He's a word propagandist for the BFEE.

You think we shouldn't notice how he inserts his opinion in the Dem primary? You think we SHOULDN'T be aware of how he operates for the GOP using the media?

[HFishbine]

34. Exactly

The "true" liberal, the "most qualified" candidate for some reason cannot get the support of liberals now, but would, through magic, I guess, garner the support of liberals and centrists in the general election.

[Padraig18]

37. Yep.

The whole 'it's everyone's fault but my candidate's' meme is wearing thin; the various supporters who constantly mouth it are beginning to remind me of third-graders mouthing the old 'the dog ate my homework' excuse. :eyes:

[Scott Lee]

72. From the Dean haters, Dean gets only "screwtiny", not scrutiny

Big difference.

[Schmendrick54]

84. My response to the issues you raise.

First of all, this thread is a challenge for people to identify why they think other candidates could do better than Dean in the general election, so I certainly regard your list of criticisms as an appropriate response, and do not consider them "Dean-bashing".

I would like to comment on each in turn.

1. The "draft-dodger" issue. Even though I regard the term "draft-dodger as inappropriate when applied to Dean, I think it is a valid statement that our SCLM will repeat the canard should Dean be our nominee. That particular calim will not be made about Kerry or Clark, so I agree that there is some reason to believe that this would favor them over Dean. I would argue, however, that there are several reasons to think that this will not be a significant factor. For one, Bush's AWOL story was known in 2000 and another Vietnam Veteran was unable to force the mighty wurlitzer to pay any attention to Bushes record. Some will suggest that "9/11" will change that, but I am skeptical. On the other hand, it could be that in a perverse way that right-wing attempts to call attention to Dean's record would backfire, by making it more difficult for the Wurlitzer to ignore the Bush story -- it is just too natural of a counterpoint.

2. The "switching positions in an election year" issue. You and I debted this briefly a few weeks ago here <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=774570#777208>

and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about whether or not your examples represent "flip-flops". I am not so sure that the other candidates are less susceptible to accusations of "flip-flops", since we have all seen cases where the mighty Wurlitzer invents them where they don't exist (search dailyhowler.com for Gore and Elian for a good example).

3. The "lies and inconsistencies" issue. I have not seen the "lies and inconsistencies" from Dean, but based on past performance by our SCLM I have no doubt there will be accusations of such, whoever our candidate is. I am reluctant to ask you for a specific example of a "lie" from Dean, because I recognize that those kinds of threads tend to degenerate into flame fests pretty quickly. Therefore, I will just say that I remain unconvinced that Dean is more susceptible to this than the other candidates.

4. "Lack of foreign policy experience." I think this is your strongest point. I would agree that this is a strong point for Clark and Kerry, made more important since 9/11.

If I did not think there were other factors strongly favoring Dean, I would probably be campaigning for Clark or Kerry today. But that is not the subject of this thread, so I will close.

Thanks again for your comments on this thread, which I for one consider to be constructive in this context, even if I do not agree with all of them.

Regards,
Schmendrick

[Monte Carlo]

19. I'm worried that the "Dean is a northeastern, liberal, draft-dodging...

... elitist, fag-loving, gun-grabbing, emotional and irrational politician who wants to raise YOUR taxes!!" line will stick to Dean during the general election. Argue those points all you want, it does not matter if it is true, only the desired effect matters to those who will repeat that line over and over again. I'm sure that Dean will try to counter it, but how he does it will be more important than what he actually says. Plus, he's going to have to score his own points against GWB and get out his own plans at the same time. It'll be tough.

[adadem]

22. Agree

I live in a Republican dominated Midwest city, very conservative, and I know Dean will not attract swing or angry Republicans to vote for him here. Had to listen to some old pug guys this morning ripping on Gore (tho they liked the nod) and they aren't going to swing anyway.
My wish would be for a candidate that could attract those swing voters and mad Republicans ... but I'm not 100% sure we have that candidate in the line up

[eleny]

51. Sadly, I agree

I live in Colorado and still had hopes that some Repubs I know would be drawn to Clark. I know already that they would not vote for Dean. In fact, they wouldn't even vote for Lieberman since they didn't vote for him in the last election.

A bunch of us are going to lunch for the holiday season. A mixed bunch of Dems and Repubs. I'm going to take a poll and see if anyone has had a change of heart. With the shrub being so awful, who knows. They may have begun to budge. I'm going to ask them what it would take for the shrub to do for them to turn into ABBs. These folks even voted for Poppy after he raised taxes. I still have hope but it's only a flicker for Dean - who I will work for if he wins the nom.

[Selwynn]

39. Because we already have had 4 years of arrogant, ignorant assholes

We don't need four more.

Dean comes off as arrogant. No, I'm not going to apologize for him - Dean IS arrogant. Dean is ignorant of foreign policy experience and the ability to be diplomatic. And Dean's snobby, smug anger thing is going to make him look like little more than an asshole when the general election population starts paying attention.

[Scott Lee]

57. So let's have four more years of the same? Good plan.

[chimpymustgo]

58. No, let's nominate a great candidate. Clark or Edwards. Good plan.

Kerry is also a better candidate than Dean, IMO.

[Scott Lee]

73. Who all have much less support and money than Dean does.

oh BRILLIANT plan. Did you by chance write the quip for Bush when he snapped "Who cares what you think?"? You don't appear to value the people's choice very much for a "democrat".

[Gloria]

75. Selwynn, I agree. I was at first attracted to Dean but found his

demeanor wore thin. The pugnacious thing was good at the start and it grabs attention, but after a while it's tiring, esp. when it reminds one of Bush!! When Bush was "selected" I felt his demeanor would wear thin. And, before 911, I think the bloom was off the rose. After 911, people seemed to forget what an arrogant asshole he was.

Actually, before Dean, I was for Kerry, but he seemed to fade. After Dean, I committed to Clark, because he has the background AND because he can show anger and effectively deal with the RW jackasses on TV. But he does it with humor and style....and a dignified, Presidential demeanor that is pretty soothing. I like that. I think people are ready to be soothed a bit....

[helleborient]

48. Simple things everyone could do for their candidate...

And many Dean supporters are already doing as part of his lead among Democrats.

And that we all should continue to do once the nomination is decided.

1. Send e-mail and snail mail to ALL of the people you know - including great aunt Emma and the 14 year old nephew in high school - letting them know about your candidate, why you are supporting them, and some of the fun things that happen when you get together with other supporters.

2. Seriously look at what you can financially contribute to your candidate - if it's $1 a week - that's fine, but make sure you track it, pledge it, and then send it in.

3. Write Letters to the Editor in your local newspaper, and see if you can get to know any reporters. Talk to them as human beings and let them know your enthusiasm...don't spend precious time calling them or their profession names.

4. Get to know your local Democratic Party members and officials if you don't know them already and let them know your enthusiasm...AND volunteer to work with them when campaigning starts in earnest next fall. Also, if you are missing Democratic candidates in local elections...consider running for something.

5. Seriously consider spending some of your vacation time in 2004 campaigning for Democrats in a key swing state or swing area. It is a lot of fun to meet Democrats from somewhere else in the country, and likewise for them. A smiling, positive, articulate real world person goes a long way in swaying votes.

Regardless of what else is said about Howard Dean, this campaign is unprecedented in my political awareness lifetime (back into the Ford administration)...there are active Howard Dean supporters globally...I know someone involved in Meetups in Zurich, Switzerland. No Democrat has ever been this successful at fundraising either. And as far as Democrats are concerned once the general election contest begins, we have never had a fundraising vehicle like MoveOn.org on our side...nor a donor like George Soros. All of these items invalidate true comparisons with the ghosts of Democratic Party past. It is a new year coming and a new world for Democrats. Let's make it work!!!

[Donna Zen]

78. Eight people

Count 'em, eight! I worked hard to capture those votes. Two I got registered, I green, 3 indys, and 2 dems that like to stray. They were ready to go Dem. Yesterday, all of but one told me they would not vote Democratic if Dean won. And as far as their concerned Dean has one, because has frozen the process. They don't follow politics all that closely, and they thought the primaries were over.

Now you might find these tales over-blown, or outside of your Dean-zone thinking, so pay no attention. But I have written, I have called, I have explained, and I have spent money and time.

And for what? True, the eight people were all people I work with, so I still have to hear from many others. Although, my Christian sister-in-law, who took me months to see the light, is never, never, going to vote Dean. Her husband's a vet, caught him too, who hates "soft on Defense" Dems.

Oh, and the eighth voter, an Indy who voted Green in the last election, told me this morning, that there was no way she would ever vote for anyone as "crazy as Dean."

So just keep on, keeping on, in the same direction. Have a wonderful time and high five everytime you manage to ignore the painfully obvious.

[Schmendrick54]

83. Ouch, that smarts.

Hello Donna,

I am truly sorry to hear about your eight voters. Perhaps someone else will win the nomination and your efforts will pay off. If Dean does win the nomination, perhaps Shrub's continued gross corruption and incompetence will lead these people to decide that Dean's sins are forgiveable. Time will tell.

In any case, I for one am grateful for your efforts to capture Democratic votes.

Best Regards,
Schmendrick

[leftynyc]

59. I like Dean and will vote for him if he's the Dem candidate

but he's considerered too liberal in the heartland and the south. He comes from a state with civil unions and his work with Planned Parenthood will kill him in the south - he will not take one southern state. No matter how you slice it, most Americans support this war in Iraq - they are being ruled by fear and the Bushies feed that fear every chance they get.

I like all the Dem candidates and will vote for whoever gets the nomination. My gut tells me the only one who can beat * is Clark. He has the military credentials that will keep the pubbies from making national security an issue (do you think they will want to compare * and his AWOL problems with a general?) And he's from the South.

If Dean is the candidate, he will lose 40+ states.

[Spirochete]

74. Don't give up hope, Deanophobes

there's always a chance Dean will do some travelling in small airplanes. So keep the champagne on ice, just in case.

Not that the Kerry and/or Clark haters are much better - there just doesn't seem to be quite as many of them.

[Donna Zen]

79. Well since you asked:

After that answer of "I'd lie to the American people" followed closely by that rambling answer that included the part about Afghanistan doing well, although it became hard to decide what country he was talking about, I'd say I see there are 5 candidates that are definately stronger than Dean.

Hey_just don't worry about it. Four more years of bush is all that is at stake, what's that compared to swooning over a center-right Democrat.