Dean's achilles heal is the African-American vote

[Gman]

Dean has virtually no African-Americans visible in his campaign. Don't think this has gone unnoticed by the African-American community. And, Dean comes across as rather glib about the issue.

Dean inspires nothing in the African-American community. There is nothing about Dean that appeals to African-Americans in a way that Bill Clinton or Al Gore did. Bill Clinton is considered the first Black president. Dean has no chance right now of being held in that high of esteem by African-Americans.

The biggest danger to Dean right now is that his "real" party is motivated and the rest of the party will be content to sit on the sidelines in November. Right now, its looking like that's the way its going to be.

[pruner]

1. I guess Reps. Jesse Jackson Jr & Bobby Scott are invisible

:eyes:

[goobergunch]

2. And Rep. Elijah Cummings, Chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus (n/t)

[Gman]

4. Those are endorsements and not

members of the campaign. He has no visible African-American members of his campaign organization.

[sfecap]

7. Yes he does.

Do your homework.

[pruner]

9. you don't know WTF you're talking about…

but putting that aside, who are the AA members of Clark's organization?

[Gman]

13. I'm talking about Dean, not Clark

don't change the subject when you can't defend Dean's lack of African-American's in his campaign.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

38. Plenty of African Americans in my area.

And we ARE his campaign.

[trogdor]

73. I think it's a valid question.

So I'll repeat it. Who are the prominent African-Americans in the Clark campaign? The Kerry campaign? The Gephardt campaign?

There is probably a reason there aren't many African-Americans involved with Howard Dean, but (1) it isn't by design, (2) it probably has more to do with tech haves vs. tech have nots than anything else, and (3) there are two African-Americans currently running for President, and while neither is making much of a dent in the various polls, they are probably getting most of the available support from other African-Americans.

So, I suppose I just answered your question. Now you answer mine, please.

[wndycty]

32. Clark's press secretary is Jamal Simmons

A graduate of Morehouse who used to work for Bob Graham.

[Jerseycoa]

80. Not Cummings

I think he wants to endorse Dean, but he hasn't so far. Unless something has changed.


:dem:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gman]

6. Yeah, well, go ahead then and defend it

but Dean is perceived as lilly white in the African-American community and not comments about "going back to FR" can change that.

[sfecap]

11. Defend it?

Why? It's flamebait bullshit.

You don't know what you are talking about.

[wildwww2]

25. So you are calling my african american friends and family liars.

They have told me they would support Dean. I don`t believe you because you are wrong.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[HFishbine]

51. "perceived as lilly white in the African-American community"

And you know this how?

hy·per·bol·ic
adj.

exaggerating or diminishing beyond the fact; exceeding the truth.

rhet·o·ric
n.

Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous.

[ex_jew]

5. Maybe blacks are smart enough to figure out that a draft

means whatever black men are not in prison will be shipped off to get blown up. I dunno, but I give them credit for following the national situation. I don't write off anyone's support without evidence.

[Gman]

8. The evidence is there if you're in touch with the African-American

community and care to listen.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. Care to provide some proof of the evidence you claim exists?...

Faced with a decision between voting for the NeoCon Junta who took office as the result of a bloodless coup, and voting for Dean, who do you think most voters of any color are going to choose?

I personally think you're off the mark if you believe that the black vote is going to erode to ANY significant amount, IF ANY, by the time the 2004 election comes around.

What actually has begun to disturb me more than worrying about who will or will not vote, is whether or not there will be ANY election held in 2004. All it will take is another LIHOP/MIHOP "terrorist attack" and we'll be slapped with martial law so quickly we'll barely notice it when they postpone the 2004 elections indefinitely.

[JVS]

10. How does this differ from Clark, Kerry, Kucinich, Gephardt...?

[Gman]

18. It differs in that

none of those you mention are the frontrunners and, at this time, the likely nominee.

[JVS]

19. But if they were front runners how would the situation be different?

Is this really a "Dean" problem, or is it a problem with our candidates in general? I think the latter is quite probable.

[xultar]

12. Hey, well I'm African American...I'll tell you what I don't like...

after the whole flag thing every time Dean opened his mouth he talked about Martin Luther King. I considered that pandering. I really didn't care about the CF remarks. It is what he did afterwards that pissed me off.

So, from my perspective, As a woman of colour(yes I spell it that way) it is a valid criticism.

Turra

[Gman]

15. I am white

and I had a chance yesterday to visit with some of my African-American friends. These are just regular everyday working people. None of the follow politics as closely as I do. To the person, they all said they saw this as a major problem with Dean. The consensus was that they have really no reason to get excited about him.

[xultar]

22. I talked to a friend of mine from NY yesterday. I told her to watch

the debate. She's was like who is this Dean cat?(that's how she talks)
I was like, Just watch the debate and she said well I gotta check this cat out. I don't want people tryin to sneak some guy buy me in the election. Then she said all those folks up state...meaning upstate NY, CT, VT were all closet KKK anyway. She also said that he should be keepin it real. That is why she liked candiates from the south because they didn't play those games. They were who they were and showed their real colours when it came down to race. So we know what we're gettin.

That is how the NY people in the city see the folks up there in the New England area.

So don't call Gman a Freeper until you talk to the sistahs and the Bruvas first.

I know what Dean is trying to do, he had the black woman introduce him @ the FL Dem Conv, he talked about MLK, He's trying to hard. I don't like that. Lots of people I know don't like that. We like people keepin it real.

[sfecap]

26. Well, gee, sistah....

I have a co worker who is a bruva, and he's very down with Dean.

Let's keep dividing the party by race. The rethugs love it. And we all lose.

BTW, one of Dean's assistant campaign directors is an African American woman, who formerly worked with the CMB campaign.

We white folk like to keep it real, too.

[Gman]

28. Thank you, sistah Xultar!

I don't mean this in a bad way, but too many of the people here at DU are unfortunately too white. They have had very little, if any, real interaction with people of "colour". It would help a great many here to expand their own horizons and make a real effort to understand the AA community. This seems to be the case with people that appear to be from the Northern or Northeastern states. Good liberals here in the South understand because we've seen things happen.

And I'll tell you what, the very same thing that I'm saying about Dean and the AA community can be said about the Latino community.

Again, I'm white, but I see Dean's campaign as lily white. He'd better fix it if he wants to win in November lest people of "colour" stay home.

[xultar]

53. You can call me GODDESS, Thank you! :-) n/t

[BearFlagDemocrat]

69. I'm Latina...

And I've been supporting Dean since late last year, when he was a lone voice in the wilderness. I've done work with the San Diego Democrats, and many people there of all colors support Dean as well.

As Dean would say, Repugs like to divide by race, but a bad economy hurts everyone (and people of color get hurt the most). No health care hurts everyone. I'm an American first, and I HATE what the chimp is doing to this country.

[DrWeird]

58. Yeah well my black friend says Dean's off the hizzle fo' shizzle.

He's a real pimp playah, da fucking shiznit, and he's super duper fly. Cause he got the magic stick.

Where as Clark's straight trippin' like he's got a stroizzle in the braizzle.

[The Backlash Cometh]

21. Thank you for posting your opinion

I think what alarms me most is how Dean supporters think they can shake off the criticism with a few photo-opportunities with black supporters. This is something Bush would do.

Dean needs to learn more about an issue which, up to now, he's been too insulated to learn about. As long as I believe his opinion is evolving in the right direction, I'll be patient.

[reachout]

16. I'm just wondering

, and I mean this as a valid political question.

Do you think there is any Democratic candidate that could win the nomination and not get somewhere in the vicinity of 90% of the African-American vote? I mean, it would fly in the face of every electoral experience for the last few decades.

Note: I'm not attacking you, I would just be interested to see any polling on the subject.

[Gman]

20. Likely any nominee would get 90% of the AA vote

of THOSE THAT GO VOTE which is my biggest point. 90% of a 40% turnout is not what Dean needs. Dean needs 90% of a 70% or better turnout to win in November. Right now it's looking more like a lackluster AA turnout.

Fortunately, there's almost a year left to change that.

[depakid]

17. This is EXACTLY what Dean is talking about when he says that

Republicans are trying to divide us by race.

I'll go one step further and say that you really should take off the Clark moniker before you post something like this- it reflects very poorly on your candidate.

[sfecap]

23. Bingo.

And there ARE rethugs here.

[Gman]

24. Forget what Dean says about dividing by race

and think about what Dean needs to win in November. You cannot expect the AA community or any Democratic Party constituent group to follow along lockstep. It doesn't work that way with this party. It does in the GOP, but not here.

[xultar]

29. You are right, and you know what we do when we don't like a candidate

we don't vote. We stay home and complain.
I liked Clinton, we, liked Clinton, so we voted for him. If Dean doesn't start playing it real he's gonna get a shocker. You can't see the scope of the black vote in the primaries because we don't vote in the primaries...there is a very small percentage because we aren't that active in the party.

That is why we always get shocked when we lose an election because we look great in the Primaries but when the convention starts and you don't see a lot of brothers and sistas on the floor you realize they could give a shit and then appathy sets in.

[xultar]

27. NO IT DOES NOT, CANT YOU HEAR ME IM BLACK!!!!!!!!!!

He's making a valid point and you're making it into something CRAZY!!!

So I'm a Clarkie and Black, and Female, if I'd posted it would you believe me.

That is the problem, Ya'll ARENT LISTENING! Do you know how pissed I get everytime Dean brings up MLK! Notice how Sharpton gets PISSED.

GEEZ PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!!

[sfecap]

30. So this must piss you off too, huh?

As Dr. Martin Luther King said, "Everybody can be great because anybody can serve ... You don't have to make your subject and verb agree to serve. You only need a heart full of grace, a soul generated by love."

King's vision is what the New American Patriotism is all about. It's about tapping into the power of our ideals and the generosity of our service. We must give back to this country the same way we have given to our children - the same way our immigrants built this land. By collective responsibility and sacrifice. New American Patriotism is about bringing renewed life to Dr. King's dream, to those here at home, those abroad, and to future generations.

- Wes Clark, 11/14/03

Gee I just hate it when candidates quote MLK...

[Gman]

33. Clark doesn't come from a state with .5% AA

so your comment is apples and oranges. You don't get it, do you?

[Hep]

39. .5%

Can you show me the stats? Census figures? What's Arkansas? 13% black?

[xultar]

47. 13% is right up there with the average

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884133.html

We are 12.7% of the population,

Area Percent of black population Percent of total population
United States 100.0% 12.7%
Region
Northeast 18.1 12.2
Midwest 18.1% 10.2%
South 55.3 19.8
West 8.6 4.8

[Hep]

49. And Vermont?

Is it really 0.5%?

[Hep]

52. Vermont does have 0.5% black population

as I found. I apologize for helping this absurd discussion go down this path.

[xultar]

55. Census Figures

http://www.dola.state.co.us/demog/Population/PopulationByAgeRace&H.O/2000Census/RaceByStPer.pdf

Arkansas - 15.7
VT - .5%
GA 28.7% (maybe that's why the traffic is so bad here, everyone knows that Bruvas can't drive)

[xultar]

41. Clark isn't trying to clean up a statement about the confederate flag

Look, The confederate flag scares the shit out of me. I live in GA and when I look in my rear view mirror and see one as a front tag on a truck or as a silk screen in a truck window I change lanes.

When Dean said it at first I was upset. Then I realized in order to win we need BUBBA'S vote. Then I posted that it was no big deal. I was even fine with Dean not apologizing because I felt he didnt' need to. You can look up my posts I was really ABB.

Then when Dean apologized and he started quoting MLK in the debates he saw it as a screw up and began to pander. That's what pissed me off. BE REAL! That is all I'm sayin. Even Al called him on it. Don't play with MLKs words to clean up a mistake.

[Gman]

31. These people continue to validate my point

that they just don't understand what's important to people of colour.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

45. as if people of colour

as if "people of colour", or "coloured people" all have one thing they all find important. That's a pretty racist assumption.

That's the equivalent of me saying, "let me tell you how white people think." If you believe all white people think the same, and find all the same things important - you're wrong.

[depakid]

34. I don't care what color you are-

and you don't own Martin Luther King- he's a national treasure and his speeches bring tears to my white eyes too.

I don't like racial division- or any type of discrimination- I've fought it all my life in a number of different capacities- and I'll speak out against it wherever I see it, and I see it here in this thread.

Maybe Dean does need to reach out to minorities more often (though he was just in Harlem yesterday and he gave a kick ass speech on point in South Carolina over the weekend- so it seems like he recognizes that). Unfortunately, the early campaign focus in Iowa & New Hampshire provides somewhat limited opportunites. You'll see more as the season progresses.

[xultar]

42. I didn't say that I own MLK WTF are you talking about? n/t

[depakid]

46. Let me rephrase

you ticked me off a little- sorry.

Maybe I should have said that it ought not to irritate you when Democrats quote Martin Luther King- because to most of us he's one of our greatest heros. Right wing Republicans... now that's a different story....

[xultar]

56. I ticked you off? I have that effect on people... no biggie n/t

[phirili]

40. Pronuncements on MLK and the use of AA to introduce Dean

are features of his campaign. Then this early endorsement by Jesse Jackson Jr looks like pandering. Maybe if his records were open we could have a more objective analysis.

Vermont is a state with .05% African Americans, maybe that says it all.

[xultar]

43. Jessie Jackson JR was not pandering...until he trotted JJr

out with some Policy BS. WTF was that all about. At that point a JJr endorsement didn't mean anything. I took it that he was being used.

[CMT]

35. you need to do more research

he has several prominent African-Americans involved in his campaign including CMB's ex-campaign manager and has received more prominent African-American endorsements than many other candidates. Some have been mentioned above, but I will mention: Jesse Jackson, Jr, Rep. Scott, Major Owens, ect.

Also, recent poll out of SC shows Clark and Dean getting exactly the same percentage of African-American vote--6%. I think the Gore endorsement will help with this vital group.

[NewGuy]

36. I disagree

Dean's Achiles heal is that he has gone too negative for too long. Once he gets the nomination he will be hurt by repug ads showing his own speeches and interviews. He is winning the nomination at the expense of the election.

Enough Dem pundits and politicians feel this way that the actual convention is likely to be the kind of ugly event that also provides fodder for political ads. My guess would be that most if not all of the other 8 Democratic presidential hopefulls either have or will make statements that hey fear what Dean will do to America. A montage of these statements over one of Dean's rants will make a great political ad.

[Hep]

37. How much attention have you honestly been paying?

Jesse Jackson Jr. isn't proiminant enough? The leader of the congressional black caucus? Hmmm.

Lemme have a crack at the nature of your post. Personal grudge blinds your ability to see clearly. That's it.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

44. People of colour can't be shuffled into one corner

of the political spectrum. Their political leanings vary. One person coming on here claiming to know how "people of colour" think is ridiculous, and in many ways - racist.

Secondy, if the African-Americans in my state of Florida dont understand that RACISM was RAMPANT in the 2000 elections, and understand to VOTE IN FORCE and VOTE AGAINST BUSH, then - my friends - there is no hope for 2004.

[HFishbine]

54. According to some posters here they can

And they all talk funny, all share identical views, and all have Dean figured out.

[xultar]

61. Part of your statement is correct and part incorect...

The original post wasn't claiming that he knew how all people of colour felt. He was saying he talked to his friends and posted whether or not it would be a problem for Dean, so no Gman wasn't being racist. I woulda let him know that...as I've done before with others.

You are right about the Black folk in FL not knowing the deal with the racism in FL. Why? Well if you didn't vote, they didn't steal your vote.

If 40% of the black folk voted the Democrats would win hands down all the time. But there is soo much apathy and hoplessness. They can't see how one vote will help so why do the bother. Why try to get off work early, why bother taking an extra bus, why try to get up early after you worked late to go vote @ 7am. Why risk your job by going in late. Yes the government does allow you to take time to vote. Many don't know that and are told the opposite(racism)so...they don't vote and don't know their vote was stolen.

[rman]

50. well, Bush has Rice and Powell, what did they do for black Americans?

All they do is create the impression there's no such thing as rascism in the US today - "see, blacks can be succesfull to" - if they pick the Right side, that is...

Dean would have a good point for blacks if he'd make an issue out of the "war on drugs", since poor blacks are the primary victims of the war on drugs:
re-enstate the 4th amendment, do away with mandatory minimum sentences (which cause rape offenders to get lower sentences than the a drugsdealer's girlfriend under whose couch some dope was found), and do away with privatized police (who depend on confiscated goods for their financial survival - made easy because you'r guilty till you prove your own innocence, if you get the chance..). Put the issues of 'conflict of interest' and political ethics back on the map..

[xultar]

59. Not a Fuckin thing. I was pretty Kewl with Condi till I saw her work...

then I began to despise her.

Colin I was in his corner...I still think I am. He got beat down. I know he was trying to stop the war in Iraq but Rummy and Dick put the screws to him. So I don't hold him any ill will.

If Colin were to run, I'd vote for him. I think all AA's would. You'd see a record turnout for Colin.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

57. achilles HEEL

[Ripley]

60. I guess his work in an inner city black hospital was proof he is a racist.

Maybe he should have just run off to some suburb in Connecticut and made more money.

The people who attack Dean on this issue are racist themselves. So, because Vermont is mostly white like dozens of other states Dean can't be president of a minority of Americans? Does that mean a candidate absolutely must come from a racially mixed state? Well, what percentage? Does Ohio count?

Who the hell are you to determine what an entire group of Americans think? Do you also speak for all men?

If blacks want to sit on the sidelines because Dean doesn't act black enough to suit them, fuck them. See how good the going gets for them when Bush is re-selected.

[xultar]

63. Who said Dean was a Racist! Don't be so simple minded and FU 2 who?n/t

We are not talking about VT. We are talking about nationally. Will it be a problem? No one said that he has to come from a racially mixed state. But if you are saying that you know what we want, or that you've done it before because you were the govenor of a state with a small population then you need to think again and not assume.
That's all

OH And before you get all NASTY I'd suggest you take out the FUCK THEM! That proves my point. Instead of trying to understand and adapt you pander and bring up the whole, well I have black friends routine. IF that doesn't work then FU comes out. Just be real and say FU in the beginning then I know where you stand.

If you are the type of supporter that Dean considers Grassroots then you've already lost. You'll win the nomination, but you won't beat Bush. That is what I'm trying to say.

Comprende?

[Ripley]

64. Number one I wasn't speaking to you.

Number two, if any group of Democrats or liberals, be they black, gay, women or whomever decides to sit out the vote in 2004 because they don't like the lily white state where the candidate comes from...who are they hurting? Themselves.

That's why I say fuck them. Grow up.

[phirili]

67. Er - which inner city black hospital and when?

[Ripley]

70. New York City I believe...

He started out working there with his wife. I'll try to find the name. He graduated from Albert Einstein Medical School in NYC.

[DrWeird]

72. Oh, what, like Dean is supposed to be like a doctor now?

Jeez, the things these Dean supporters come up with.

[Hep]

75. The Bronx

Has phirilli ever worked in an emergency room in the Bronx?

[Ripley]

76. Thanks Hep, couldn't find it.

Of course that only means he abandoned the AA community because he moved to Vermont after working there. :crazy:

[phirili]

68. Was the inner city black hospital in Vermont? Or was it just painted black

[Ripley]

71. You must take lessons on being

ignorant.

[Hep]

74. Thanks for showing how little you know about the subject

it always makes our job easier.

Your comment about the hospital being painted black would go over very well in the Bronx, where Dean did his emergency room work.

[HuckleB]

62. Wow! Talk about a stone coming from a glass house.

Another anti-Dean thread aiming to push Clark to the fore. I'd rather read about why Clark should be pushed to the fore. That would be far more convincing and useful to us all.

[xultar]

78. Who said anything about Clark, the only Clark statements were from Deanies

so
Whatyoutalkinabout Willis?

[paintgott]

65. Did anyone notice

New Hampshire is 0.7% African-American?

[xultar]

79. Yup! But it doesn't matter because blacks are few if any will vote

in the primaries. You have to be on the inside and really active to vote in the Primaries and Blacks aren't usually in that category.

[JVS]

66. Amazing how many times "colour" appears in this thread

[Good Fences]

77. problem WITH Dean or FOR Dean?

Stop hitting me.

I read the threads; lack of AA support for Dean seems more like a problem for Dean than a problem with him, personally.

Still, many framed their response as if the failure of AA turnout for Dean is some aspect of Dean's person/ position on the issues.

Why? Responses critical of Dean relied - though not exclusively- yeah I did read 'em all-- on phrases like "lily white" "too white" "so white" "all white". Get past it already. Just how right do you have to be on the issues to be forgiven the sin of belonging to the majority culture? Right is right.

If some (any) individual is too lazy, immature, petulant, resentful (pick one) to recognize a good thing when it comes along then frankly that person just reaps what s/he sows- another four years of the GOP.

[Moderator]

81. locking thread

this has turned into a flame fest