If whites held "African Americans for Bush" signs how would you react?

[wndycty]

This can be dismissed as bashing, but its a serious question about double standards. I know I would be screaming from high holy hell on this. . .but I guess if it is the leading Democrat we will remain silent. This is a serious question and no one is disputing it. How would you react if it were Bush? I know I would be pissed if Clark did it!

From a Dean event in South Carolina:

"While the address was billed as a major speech on race, only a handful of the audience members were black. The pre-printed signs, 'African-Americans for Dean,' were held by white supporters."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0312080163dec08,1,5661319.story

[Gman]

1. Goes back to my Dean's Achilles Heel thread this morning

that got locked. Just another example of Dean's being out of touch with the African-American community. This is no different than the GOP 2000 convention when they paraded out on stage these latino and AA kids to talk about no child left behind. This was in stark contrast to the 99.99% lily white faces on the floor of the convention.

Dean had better get it and get it real fast or the AA community will sit home on election day. At least Dean will be able to say, "but I won the primaries".

---on edit--
From the article: Dean says "There are no black concerns or white concerns. There are only human concerns."

Spoken like a true Freeper.

[wndycty]

2. I have no problem with the Black support he has received.

But I do have a problem with his campaign misleading all voters (Black and white) by having whites hold up "African American for Dean" signs. If Bush had done this there would be hell to pay. This was not an accident it was done on purpose.

[Township75]

3. As a Dean supporter

I do not like this, and hope this never happens again, not only in Dean's campaign, but in any democratic or even republican campaign.

The race issue is sensitive, broad, not received equally by all. If the situation was one in which they couldn't get any Blacks to show up so they had to use Whites, then that tells us something. It will not change my support for Dean, but if he or any other candidate has to have supporters hold signs that clearly were not intended for them, then that is a signal to everyone that works needs to be done in extending his campaign.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

59. Thank you for being honest

It would certainly bug the hell out of me if my candidate's (Kerry)supporters did it.

[TopesJunkie]

4. Another anti-Deanite heard from!

Basically, Bush did do that at the 2000 Repub Convention, or have you forgotten. Any way you look at it, Clarkies are shooting from a glass campaign headquarters on this one.

[wndycty]

6. So are you saying. . .

. . .that it is ok for Dean to do it and I have no right to speak out against it because I am a Clark supporter? Its disugusting that you will justifiy it because Bush did it. I would hope Gov. Dean will be asked about this and I would expect him to the right thing and say that it was wrong and won;t happen again. Fortunately I have more faith in Dean than I do his supporters.

[TopesJunkie]

51. Hey, you little Anti-Deanite!

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. All I did was clarify that Bush had already done it. There was no justification. And, at this point, the blather from the anti-Deanite community is so bizarre that I could care less about any of your criticisms anymore. The din has caused them all to mush into one loud roar of nothingness. Until the anti-Deanitic clans can get a grip and offer more their anti-Deanitic furvor, I'm going to point out how ridiculous that fervor is.

Somebody's got to do it!

[wndycty]

54. I am going to call an anti-Cult specialist. . .

. . .and see if we can get you some help.

[QC]

55. Are there still any Moonie deprogrammers around?

[TopesJunkie]

62. Great! These anti-Deanites need it bad!

[wndycty]

67. I am not an anti-Deanite. . .

. . .despite what you were told. Snap out of it.

[Hep]

88. Don't deny it

How many threads have you posted today critical of Dean? The fake objectivity has to go.

[wndycty]

91. I would support Dean if he got the nod. . .

. . .would you support Clark?

[Hep]

93. Damn right I would support Clark

And I don't have to prove it by posting a bunch of articles that criticize him, either.

Whether or not I would support clark has never been in question. You know why? Because I'm not lying when I say it. That is, I'm not saying in a vain attempt to show that I'm objective. I don't have to prove my objectivity either. You know why? Because I don't say I like a guy and then find every critical article I can that hasn't already been posted and throw it up.

I like Clark and I prove it by LIKING CLARK. You claim to like Dean and you prove it by posting critical articles. Honestly, I'd hate to see you demonstrate your appreciation for your #3 guy.

[wndycty]

108. Did you ever stop to think. . .

. . .that if were not for some of the issues I have raised about Dean he could be my number 1. I am challenging him to be the candidate I want him to be.

[bearfartinthewoods]

107. you are falling for it...

they are attacking you in order to deflect the discussion away from why in the hell Dean can't find a black person willing to hold his signs...

[wndycty]

111. They are programmed to do as much

. . .thanks for bringing me back!

[bearfartinthewoods]

115. no problem, just return the favor if you see me biting the bait.

[wndycty]

116. Will do!

:kick:

[Scott Lee]

122. A cult of two. Lovely.

[KFC]

5. Mabye they were South African

Yea, that's the ticket!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

12. nice one, man

best ive seen all day

[Cheswick2.0]

13. LOL, okay that was funny

I have to give you points for that one.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

61. Actually I know a South African who feels that way

Although he's good at being a wise ass, he's more than half serious.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

121. They all had Michael Jackson skin-bleaching disease

SOMEBODY has to represent them.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. I KNOW This Is Reported in a Major Paper, But I Still Can't Believe It

It just seems too ridiculous to be true.

DTH

[deminflorida]

8. Looks like he's getting those guys with confederate flags.....

in their trucks to come out...maybe it's working for him.

Ya Think?

"After Dean's speech, he called people to come forward to register to vote. Those who came forward included a man wearing a coat decorated with a Confederate flag."

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031207/APN/312070859

[wndycty]

9. Like I said. . .if this were Bush. . .

. . .there would be absolute outrage!!!!

[Old and In the Way]

99. On my scale of Bush Absolute Outrages............

this would fall pretty close to the bottom....more like Resigned Cynacism.

Really, this is a pretty bogus issue to be outraged over.

And I say this as a Kerry supporter.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. OMG.....

"After Dean's speech, he called people to come forward to register to vote. Those who came forward included a man wearing a coat decorated with a Confederate flag."


Be careful what you wish for. That's all I will say about that!

[aquart]

33. Citizens have the right to vote.

No matter how stupid their ideas.

[xJlM]

10. I'd laugh

Just like I laugh at the folks here who try to justify Dean's nonsense. Just like I laughed at the guy in New Hampshire with the Dean shirt on waving the rebel flag. But then, I'm a white guy so maybe I'm not the one to judge from.

[Cheswick2.0]

11. maybe they were the only Dean signs they could get their hands on?

When I worked for Rendell there were two separate factions of Rendell supporters who hated each other. Lets call them the red sign Rendells and the blue sign Rendells. For about a week all I had was the Red signs for Rendell and we couldn't get any of the blue ones. So I put the Red ones in peoples yards when they called my office........Woah Nelly I was told off in no uncertain terms that I was not to do that by the blue sign people. (honest to God this is a true story)
My point is, who cares? Why would I hold any democratic candidate to the standards I hold bush to? I am a partisan democrat. I have no interest in distroying the chances of any of the candidates much less the front runner. Whatever support Dean has not earned in the AA community I hope he will work for if he is our nominee.

[wndycty]

15. And would you buy that excuse from the Bush camp. . .

:kick:

[bearfartinthewoods]

110. the signs are not the real issue.......

the real issue is
""While the address was billed as a major speech on race, only a handful of the audience members were black. "

play with this map and tell me how we win without a southern state.

and while you are at it, worry about the Philly inner city turning out.

play with this map and tell me how many southern states we need if we lose PA?

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/map/

the fact that he can't get blacks to turn out for a major speech on race in freakin SC doesn't concern you?

[LeahMira]

14. Say what?

Sorry, I need to be registered to read "the rest of the story" but whites holding "African-Americans for Dean" signs makes absolutely no sense to me. In fact, the more that I think about it the more offensive I find it. Trying to be fair, so... what is the rest of the story?

[wndycty]

17. The registration is free. . .

. . .it was a story on Jesse Jackson Jr.'s endorsement of Dean.

[Hep]

16. Ignorance is not a trait monopolized by the right wing, apparently

You can't have white skin and be African American?

[wndycty]

19. Wow. . .

. . .I am light bright and damn near white. But I doubt the reporter was mistook light skinned African Americans for white. . .maybe he did, but that is a new spin. Desperate if you ask me.

[Terwilliger]

23. "desperate" are the flailing attacks from the Clarkies

because they were hoping not to have to suffer a stinging rebuke like Gore's endorsement of Dean

[Hep]

26. New spin?

You think every African American has brown or light brown skin? You've never met a person with WHITE skin from Africa? NEVER? Man, that's nutty. You might need to get out more.

[wndycty]

30. Hep. . .you are cracking me up

:kick:

[Hep]

49. Thanks!

I guess yo've never met anyone whose parents moved to the US from South Africa.

[wndycty]

52. I could see them now walking around with "African American for Dean" signs

Boy you have a creative imagination.

[Hep]

63. If they're for Dean I can see it

Are you the kind of person who assumes someone is black based on how they sound on the phone? Guessing people's race based on nothing more than a glimpse or a sound is a tough thing to do. I certainly wouldn't attempt to do it. But then, I don't care what race a person is. African Amreicans For Dean and Blacks For Dea were not started by white people.

Maybe you would be offended if a "white" person were holding an African Americans for Dean sign, but what if the sign were given to the person by a black person? Would you care? Of course not.

[bearfartinthewoods]

117. and another strawman thrown into the discussion to deflect from the real

issue that there were only a few blacks in the audience for a major
Dean speech race in freakin SC.

i'm starting to wonder if one of the church of deans commandements might not be "Thou shalt not discuss the issues"

[LeahMira]

60. Sorry, but...

You think every African American has brown or light brown skin? You've never met a person with WHITE skin from Africa? NEVER? Man, that's nutty. You might need to get out more.

... that's really stretching it.

Go fish.

[Hep]

65. Whatever

I'll tell my friends who fit the description that their existence is "stretching it".

All I'm saying is jumping to conclusions is wrong and stupid.

[Bertrand]

84. You cant be serious

The term "African American" is implicitly applied to those that have a heritage that significantly originated from Africa and not through European colonization, much like the how term "Native American" applies to aboriginals rather than Bill O'Reilly.

[Hep]

90. Implicitly?

You're not necessarily right about that. Especially in 2004.

[Bertrand]

100. Maybe youre right

in this day and age, when the term "African American" is brought up, people even remotly associate that with the descendents of European colonialists that moved to America.

[Hep]

102. The bigger problem

is that your assertion begs for an assessment of acceptible levels of blood purity before you get to be a member of a group. My understanding has been that if you're 1/32 african american, you're african american. Now apparently you put a threshhold on it.

[jpgray]

18. Dean's great, but this is a BAD idea, and a terrible image

One the Democratic Party should be very careful to avoid.

[Terwilliger]

20. a couple of questions...

Yes, I think it's pretty bad for white folks to hold those signs.

1. Who wrote the article you posted? (I'm not signing-up for the CS-T website)

2. Why are you searching for anything that paints Dean in a bad light? Shouldn't you be looking to hype Clark now that he's doing badly?

[wndycty]

24. Its the Chicago Tribune. . .

. . .hey I am sure if there was something the put Clark in a questionable light you would not just sit on it. As a matter of fact despite Clark not attacking Dean, Dean has not resisted a chance to say that Clark supported the war and "was a Republican 25 days ago." Turnabout is fair play and I fully expect to get stuff thrown my way whenever Clark screws up. Hey I deserve it but I am big boy I can take it.

[Terwilliger]

64. I would "sit on it" because I'm not actively seeking dirt on anyone

you answered neither of my questions above

[Hep]

95. Not only would I sit on it,

I would ignore it. Because I don't go around looking for reasons not to like someone. The media is against me. I don't take it lightly, and I don't rely on my enemy to provide my arguments for me.

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. It would have been different

if there had been 100's of African-American voters there and a "few" WHITE people were holding those signs, but that wasn't the situation. If Clark did that, I would be so disheartened.

[bobbyboucher]

22. Any pictures?

I cannot remember my password to the Trib and ain't gonna do it again. Do they have any pictures of white people holding Dean signs?

This is how they are trying to divide the Dems. I heard both Rush and Medved say this shit about how Dean wanted Gore to help him in the African Americans communities. Like they are being fake about the whole thing.

I just want some pictures for verification. Thanks.

[wndycty]

25. No pics as far as I can tell but you think the Trib is lying. . .

. . .if so I would recommend that you call them on this "lie" and write a letter to the editor. Believe me if they misrepresented Clark I would write.

[bobbyboucher]

No thanks.

A picture would be nice though.

Do you believe everything that you read? I hope not. If you don't see the strategy then you cannot hear the alarm clock going off right next to your head. If it's on Medved, Rush, Hewitt, then it is part of the plan. They are trying to make African Americans believe that Dean/Gore/Dems in general are patronizing them and do not deserve their votes so they might as well stay home. DUH!

[wndycty]

44. I don't believe everything I read. . .

. . .but if this were not true I would expect the Dean campaign to call the Tribune out on this. I mean if its is untrue I would be screaming and demanding a retraction, wouldn't you?

[bobbyboucher]

68. No because there probably were some white people

holding "African Americans for" signs there perhaps, I don't know. I don't think it is an issue at all. Oh sure, it is an issue to people trying to bring Dean down, but I just don't think that one, two, ten people holding those signs means jack squat.

You see, the most prominent word on those signs, I'm certain, was DEAN, not the other part. Who gives a rat's ass who held them.

IT IS A NON-ISSUE!

[wndycty]

70. Would it be a non-issue if it were Bush. . .

:kick:

[bobbyboucher]

78. Yep, cause nobody would believe it were true.

Every damn Bush supporter at their convention could carry that sign and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

DON'T YOU SEE IT? This whole "Gore gives Dean help with African Americans" thing is part of the plan to divide. Kindly stop helping them.

[wndycty]

80. Its not a plan to divide. . .

. . .every criticism of Dean is not manufactured by Rove and his ilk. Joe Trippi has done a great job of programming Dean's cult.

[bobbyboucher]

87. Ahh, reverting to the Dean/cult spew.

Do I smell desperation? Pulease. I support all of them, and defend all of them. Some more than others, so save it.

If I hear the "Dean/Gore did this to get more support with the African American community" on Rush's show, on Michael Medved's show, and on Hugh Hewitt's show, then yes, Rove ain't to far removed. This whole "white people holding signs" bullshit sounds just like the same shit.

So let me put it bluntly, since you cannot seem to understand it. You are doing nothing here today EXCEPT perpatrating a right-wing lie. Whether intentional or not, you are doing it. Whether directly on point or not, you are assisting the dark side.

SO FUCKING QUIT IT!

[wndycty]

92. I did not know the right wing was talking about it. . .

such language. . .have I touched a nerve.

[bobbyboucher]

98. Not a nerve,

my prostate.

I hear that Gore is going to endorse Dean and I think, good for Dean. Gore doesn't carry all the juice he once did, but it certainly will not hurt Dean. Then I hear on three different righty spew shows, opn the same day, that this is all to get Dean more support from the African American community, and I wonder, what the hell are they talking about? Why would anyone assume that Gore could pull blacks to Dean? I wouldn't assume that.

The Trib story doesn't say the same thing, but insinuating that Dean is desperately, that's what I would call passing out mui mui many signs at a rally to white people, trying to appeal to blacks. It's just coincidence I know.

Who do you think floats these ideas?

Let's see, how would the white folks in the South feel about this? Come on, Democrats WANT to have blacks under the tent, and Repubes want the bigots to think that blacks are the only ones there.

Nothing, and I mean nothing is a coincidence and nothing, and I mean nothing, is by accident.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

112. Thank you for the honor

:kick:

[eyesroll]

28. How do we know these signs were even provided by the Dean staff?

"Pre-printed" means nothing. These signs could have been "pre-printed" by those (misguided) white people in the audience. (There is a utility on the Dean Web site which allows people to customize signs and print them out. "Chocoloholics for Dean." "Ballerinas for Dean." "Klansmen for Dean." You can type in whatever you want.)

There could have been a big stack of "African Americans for Dean" signs, without someone monitoring them, or checking the skin color of a prospective taker against a chart. ("Dude! I'm going to be an African American for Dean today! Cool!" Not entirely out of the question...)

These could have been the only signs available. If so, that was probably stupid on the part of DFA, because then they either were doing it on purpose, or anticipating a much bigger African American turnout than they got.

This is lazy reporting from the Trib. I'd like to know more.

[xultar]

37. Who else is gonna print them.?

For God sake,
An AA for XXX sign is redundant if it is held by a Black person. Duh!

Who else is gonna print them... Oh wait let me guess a whole bunch of confederate flag wavin white folks printed them.

[eyesroll]

46. All I'm saying is that this is, once again, a discussion that lacks data

We don't know where the signs came from.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that the holders of the signs printed them out. Why? Because they're misguided. Because they're dumb. Because they thought they were being cute. Because they wanted to cause a disruption. We don't know.

But I will assume these are official, union-printed, campaign funded signs. Which they probably were. It then becomes a question of, who handed out the signs, who took the signs, and why.

If Dean staffers were handing them out, on purpose, to white people, for the purpose of making it look like there was ample African American support, then yes, I agree, it was a boneheaded move and deserving of much criticism.

If Dean staffers were handing them out to anyone who wanted them, I would want to check their motives for doing so (see above), but then I'd also wonder what I'd do in that situation. Would I reserve those signs for people who looked "black" enough (and risk getting an earful about that)? Or would I just give them to whoever asked for one? (I probably would not have "African Americans for XXX" signs in the first place, but that's a whole other story.)

If these signs were left in a pile for people to pick up if they wanted, well, then, blame the people. (For the record, I've attended gatherings of all stripes where signs were left in piles. I've also attended gatherings where signs were handed out.)

I do stand by my assertion that if these were the only signs available, and they were expecting a big African American turnout, then they deserve criticism for being way off the mark.

Look, I agree with the fundamental criticism -- IF this was orchestrated by the Dean people, it was not a good thing to do. But I don't have the full story. I can't make a complete judgement on an incomplete story.

[wndycty]

48. Would you be so understanding if Bush did it?

Seriously. . .would you?

[eyesroll]

69. If this was the exact report, but with Bush, I'd want more information

I'm not a fan of data-lite discussions, about Dean, Bush or whoever. That's all I'm saying.

If Dean or his staff did it (made it happen on purpose, to borrow a phrase), I'd be pissed.

If Bush or his staff did it (MIHOP, tbap), I'd be pissed.

But the thing is -- WE DON'T KNOW.
We can assume all we want. We can speculate. But this was lazy reporting. We don't know the whole story.

I'm not going to slam Dean OR Bush until/unless I know what I'm slamming.

Do an archive search of my username. You will find phrases such as "to be fair" or "it's possible that," etc., before discussions of Dean, other Democrats, Bush, other people I don't like, other people I like. I like to make sure that when I'm attacking something, I know I'm attacking an actual idea/event/occurrence, and not someone's retelling of such.

If being "understanding" is wanting to know the whole story before judging it, then, yes, I would be so understanding for Bush.

IF we find out that this was indeed an on-purpose, idiotic move by the Dean camp (and not some misguided volunteers/supporters, or grossly mischaracterized by the reporter), I will post a thread (or a reply to an existing thread) stating my disgust at the situation. Hold me to that (with a grace period for not being online/not being aware).

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. I don't think WHO printed them

really matters. What does matter is the signs said..."AFRICAN-AMERICANS FOR DEAN" and WHITE people were holding them.

[eyesroll]

74. So if a bunch of white freepers decided they wanted to cause a disruption

and come in carrying African-Americans for Dean signs that they printed, we should hold that against Dean? (This is a stretch scenario, I admit it. But we don't really know because we weren't there and the reporter didn't tell us.)

Again, if we do find out that this was done by the Dean campaign, I will express my disgust. Until then, we are having a data-lite discussion and making assumptions.

[wndycty]

77. So we are going to pin this one on the freepers?

:kick:

[eyesroll]

86. I said freepers was a stretch scenario

I doubt it actually was freepers. But we don't know! The previous poster indicated that the content of the signs and the race of the holders was all that mattered. But context -- and knowing all of the facts -- is important, too, at least to me.

Again, data-lite discussions. (I've been having those at work today, too.)

And thanks, wndycty, for a provocative talk. I appreciate your desire for consistency. (I share it. I just hope I'm not coming off as hypocritical on that -- I'm trying to be consistent.)

[Old and In the Way]

103. How about "Child Molester's for Clark"?

Would any of us believe it wasn't a dirty trick? Would I be shocked to see the RNC try it? No.

Who cares that some white people might have held up signs like this....were they trying to pull a fast one? Did they darken their faces and put Afro wigs on? Does anyone think for a moment that this was some special orchestration from the Dean steering committee?

No, but I would question why the Chicago Tribune might give prominence to this non-story, though.

Absolutely a non-issue, IMHO.

[tjdee]

29. This is of course a bunch of bullshit--whose dumb idea was that?

I've been on a bit of a vacation from GD, and I didn't want to come here after "The Endorsement"....but my curiosity got the better of me.

Of COURSE it is dumb dumb dumb for white people to stand there with AA for Dean signs--some Dean supporters in this thread have admitted such.

But as usual, the grasping for straws by some people is good for a laugh (uh....maybe they *were* black!).

It is as clear as the nose on my face that Gore tried to GIVE Dean help in that regard (hence Harlem), but you'd hope for clearer thinking supporters who know that black people aren't charmed by the 'placeholders'. Also, you'd hope for a candidate who doesn't say he wants to be the guy of Confederate flag decal users either.

But I get ahead of myself. :P

[wndycty]

31. So will you not be outraged...

. . .if white supporters of Bush held up signs that said "African Americans for Bush?"

[tjdee]

35. I agree with YOU!

I'm going to go back and make that clearer. You are RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT.

The grasping at straws I mentioned was stuff like....maybe the sign holders *were* black.

[bobbyboucher]

43. No, I wouldn't be outraged.

I'm sure there are a couple or three African Americans for Bush. Plus, I wouldn't waste my time.

Now, if I was at the event, and actually SAW IT FOR MYSELF, then I would make a point of laughing in their face and making fun of them. It would be a hoot.

[xultar]

32. LIKE THIS

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

Crystal?

[DuctapeFatwa]

34. Maybe they were black people with the skin problem Michael Jackson has?

or the white people were just trying to be nice to the black people because they have suffered so much and were holding their signs so their arms wouldn't get tired?

I don't support any of the candidates, I am just trying to help Dean's people out a little here :)

[xultar]

38. Right, a whole bunch of vitaligo albino people managed to

crash a really. You're kute.

[Yupster]

94. Maybe they were

held by White people who had just stolen the signs from the Black people who were originally holding them?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

40. ROTFL!

or the white people were just trying to be nice to the black people because they have suffered so much and were holding their signs so their arms wouldn't get tired?

That is just hilarious!

DTH

[mrgorth]

36. I'll let DFA know...

that this is bad. I agree on this one.

[Ripley]

39. No one even knows if it is true.

Or if it was one stupid, young, inexperienced campaign worker who grabbed the sign and held it up.

Does anyone really think Trippi orchestrated it this way? Yeah, get all those Vermont white kids down there and have them hold up the AA signs. Then grab the "Women for Dean" signs and make sure only the guys hold them up.

[wndycty]

45. If it is not true. . .

. . .call the Tribune and demand a retraction.

[sybylla]

41. Been to several of these kinds of events

Nothing new here. You see, each campaign brings in a dozen people to hand out signs to attendees. While their guy is talking, they sit in the audience and wave the signs at the same time they continue to try to pass them out.

Of course you will see, such as in this instance, "white" supporters holding signs such as this if those are the signs which are being handed out. They apparently expected more African Americans to attend.

Sounds like a newbie reporter trying to make a big deal out of nothing, if you ask me.

[TopesJunkie]

53. Hey, you're not an ANTI-DEANITE!

What are you doing here?

[sybylla]

57. No one asked to see my pledge pin at the door

I do drop into (or shall I say crash) these candidate bashing threads once in a while. Especially when they seem so absurd.

Yeah, it was unfortunate that the signage created an improper impression. But it wasn't any concerted effort by Dean or his people. Anyone who has ever been part of any campaign knows that these events are never that well scripted. You're generally so grateful to have a few warm bodies willing to do the drudgery that you don't care much how it gets done.

[Terran]

42. It's absurd and insulting either way.

I sincerely hope that none of Dean's campaign people allowed that to happen or in fact caused it to happen, because it doesn't speak well for either their intelligence or their integrity.

[QC]

47. If Bush did that, this place would go so totally apeshit

the servers would melt.

[wndycty]

50. My point exactly

:kick:

[bobbyboucher]

71. Apeshit with laughter.

First, let's get some pictures of these whitees at the Dean rally. Then let's find out how many of them there were. And when it is a full blown conspiracy to fake African American support for Dean, then let's all get hysterical.

[wndycty]

72. Would you give Bush the same benefit of the doubt?

Would you?

[bobbyboucher]

81. It would be funny, but who cares really.

I'm sure there are some AAs who support Bush. Really, this is not an issue. Maybe, when you can show a picture of thousands of them, then I would wonder. But I don't now.

How many times do I have to say it? This is part of the ROVE PLAN! They want to put across the message that Dean is patronizing the African American community with this Gore endorsement thing. Like it was some huge plan hatched in secret to use Al Gore to give Dean more street cred.

THEY WANT TO DIVIDE US! STOP HELPING THEM!

[Old and In the Way]

104. There'd be 10 responses saying "So what else is new"

Then it would sink into the memory hole, never to be seen again.

Maybe it's just me, but Bush has generated so much "outrage" that stuff 4 years ago which would have been cause for my blood pressure to rise to dangerous levels, dosen't even register anymore.

I think it's called Outrage Fatigue.

[Schmendrick54]

56. Here's how I would react...

I guess I would add it to the very long list of examples of Bush and phony photo opportunities. Like Bush with the made in China boxes which were falsely relabeled "Made-in-USA". I would use it to try to defeat him because I know that Bush and the GOP has a clear and long record of using African-Americans for photo-opportunities while pursuing policies which detrimental to their interests and simultaneously condoning racist organizations.

I would guess that you also want to know what my reaction is to the report about the Howard Dean event in South Carolina.

My reaction is to ask myself, "do I believe that this is a result of the campaign trying to falsely claim a level of support from the African-American community that does not exist?" My answer to that question is, "No, I do not believe that."

My next reaction is to wonder how this happened. As others have suggested, it seems almost certain that in an effort to respond to suggestions that the Dean campaign has failed to garner significant support from this community, to print a bunch of signs, more than were needed for that particular event.

(Schmendrick now slips into his Runsfeld impersonation)

Do I think it should not have happened? Of course.

Would it be better if the signs had been displayed at the recent Washington, DC event where about half of the attendees were African-American? Certainly.

Does this mean that we should dismiss Howard Dean as a candidate? I don't think so.
(/rumsfeld>

Regards, as always,
Schmendrick

[wndycty]

66. You and I are fast becoming friends. . .

. . .I do not see this as reason not to support Dean. I asked the question because the whole primary process has really challenged me. Its so easy to stake out a position when there are clear lines: left vs. right; Democrat vs. Republican; etc.

I have noticed that there are certain standards that we use to criticize Bush/Republicans/the right, but when we are fighting amongst ourselves those standards disappear.

I don't support Clark's position on flag burning and I disagree with some of his positions on Vieces (sp), but there are other Clark supporters who ignore that.

There are a number Dean supporters who defended the Confederate flag (not just Dean's statements) and there are other positions that people have flip flopped on. So I hope that in our rush to support our candidates we do not abandon our values. This is no reason to abandon Dean, but it should be condemned.

[Hep]

73. According to Bertrand Russell:

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."

Don't speak for me if you don't know how.

If you care about standards, abide by them.

[wndycty]

75. And Nikki Giovanni once said. . .

"Sometimes you got to call a motherf$%ker a motherf$%ker!"

Your point?

[Hep]

85. My point?

If you don't understand me, don't speak for me. You didn't get it the first time I said it?

[wndycty]

106. I understand you more than you know

:kick:

[tom_paine]

76. Nice post, Schemndrick. I agree.

:toast:

[eyesroll]

79. Excellent analysis! n/t

[rucky]

82. Anybody can walk into a Dean rally

and do something stupid to make the whole crowd look bad.

I can't imagine anybody being that stupid on accident.

well...yes i can, but that's not the point.

Same shit happened in the COINTELPRO days. same shit happens at protests all the time. Why not rallys?

Why can't we go to * rally's and do the same thing: Maybe that's why * doesn't have rallys? Or if he does, you have to pay a $2000 admission price.

I'm taking up a collection for a DUer shill to attend the next * rally. Not that anything we'd do would be filmed or covered in the media, but you catch my drift.

:tinfoilhat:

[wndycty]

83. So this is being spun as a disruption. . .

. . .am I to assume that there is absolutely no way this was done by anyone in Dean's camp? So is that the official line it was a disruption?

[bobbyboucher]

89. You're the one spinning.

Out of control I might add.

[mrgorth]

96. Bobby, I thought you were a Dean basher

no? did you switch?

[bobbyboucher]

101. I'm a Bush basher

I like all our guys and girls. Well, Lieberman makes me wonder who's side he's on sometimes, soo.....

Other than that, I would go to the mattresses for any of our people when it comes to it. I think Dean has hit the ball out of the park on many occasions and is a threat to Bush, not to mention a threat to the DLC's vision. All this talk about how he cannot win is bullshit. He can win.

I do attack attackers though, with a vengence, because sometimes, like I do with Lieberman, I wonder who's side they are on.

For the record, I'm kind of Dean, Clark, Kucinich, Kerry, on down the line.

[Old and In the Way]

105. Do you think you can't break 100 posts with this thread?

I think it's being spun as "no one knows for sure, but it probably doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things".

[NashVegas]

109. Who the Heck Knows?

Not so long ago, I was driving in Tennessee, and saw an old pick-up truch with a white driver, and a bumper-sticker that said 'African Americans for Gore.' I couldn't help but wonder if that was some racist sumbitch trying to make a statement to the like-minded.

We simply don't know.

However, if I were in the Dean campaign, the one that says it's trying to unite people, I would discourage my fellow campaigners from green-lighting "Your_Group_Here for Dean' anything. There's too much room for dirty tricks.

Then again, maybe we could print up "Neo-cons for Bush" stickers.

[DrFunkenstein]

113. How Many Ways Can Dean People Compromise Their Values

Defending him. I've seen some pretty weird things come out trying to apologize for the unapologetic Governor.

[DrFunkenstein]

114. How Many Ways Can Dean People Compromise Their Values

Defending him. I've seen some pretty weird things come out trying to apologize for the unapologetic Governor (well, actually he apologized publicly 3 times on the campaign trail).

[Schmendrick54]

120. More than one. But then again, ...

Hello Doc

It is true that I have seen a few of my fellow Dean supporters here go through some logical contortions to excuse a particular criticism or other of OUR favorite candidate, (and may even have done so myself) but ...

It seems to me that similar vague criticisms could be lodged against supporters of every candidate - maybe even yours?

It also seems to me that candidates and their supporters tend to focus their criticism at the candidates they perceive to be ahead of them, which means that lately, the largest protion of the criticism here has been devoted to Dr. Dean (excluding Bush, of course). It seems to me not surprising that there are more examples of "defensive" remarks from Dean supporters. I guess I could be accused of being defensive here, given my recent burst of posts (compared to my usual high lurk-quotient), but I have not knowingly compromised any of my values.

I guess after years of being called a traitor due to my liberal attitude by Limbaugh and his ilk, I should not get too excited about the suggestion that I compromise my values to support Dean -- but I confess it hurts a bit. I guess it's because I can consider the source and ignore the rantings of Rush, but I have great respect for my thoughtful fellow posters at DU, and I consider you to be among them.

With respect,
Schmendrick

[GinaMaria]

118. If men had held signs that said

"Women for Dean" Would I be offended?

I tried to make this much more personal to me to get a more true gut reaction. The only thing I can come up with is, why have men hold the signs? Wouldn't it be better if no one held the preprinted signs?

It would look like he couldn't get women to show up. I would not offended, but a little confused. While it reflects poorly on Dean, it probably doesn't have much to do with him. It was poor judgement on the part of those that work on his campaign. Again, using my senario, I'm not offended. I just don't understand why they would have done something that seems to point out that Dean is losing favor with a certain demographic.

Peace
Gina

[MrBenchley]

119. They already DID...

The "African American Republican Leadership Council" consists of such prominent black Americans as Paul Weyrich, Sean Hannity, Grover Norquist and Gary Bauer...

"The honorary chairman of the panel is listed as former U.S. senator Edward W. Brooke III, a Republican from Massachusetts. So I called up Brooke, who confirmed the important fact that he is black.
Alas, he is not in any way associated with the group. He said he'd never heard of it and had no idea why his name was on the site.
A mere week after I called Kevin and expressed my concerns that this Web site seemed, y'know, a little Uncle Tomish, suddenly the site was changed. Now, in addition to Bush and Reagan, there are also pictures of Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell. And there is an announcement that the AARLC salutes its new national director, a black Republican named Sherman Parker.
I reached Parker, 31, in Jefferson City, Mo., where he had just been sworn in as a first-term member of the Missouri House. He was a little surprised to find out that he was the new national director of the AARLC, because, he said, he hadn't agreed to take the job yet, and, in fact -- though he had spoken to the group about representing it -- he was still unfamiliar with its goals and had never seen the Web site. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A58238-2003Jan29?language=printer

[mitchum]

123. kick

for curiosity