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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:49 PM
Original message
Non-Dean Democrats: What makes you so electable?
This argument of electability has gone from funny to just plain stupid. I think many of the Washington Democrats are falling into that one trap they should never fall into: they are believing their own rhetoic. This seems to be the year of the anti-establishment. People don't seem to want to nominate someone from Washington. If this sentiment continues, then I believe we'll be able to use it against Bush. That in itself, makes Dean and Clark the only two viable candidates.

But that said, the biggest argument against Dean seems to be the "electability question." Can Dean beat Bush? When asked yesterday by Peter Jennings if any of the candidates believed Dean could beat Bush. Only one raised their hand, Dean himself. The view of official Washington, the DLC, and the Clintons, is that Dean can not win.

But I got a question. What makes you think that YOU can win?

That's the implication isn't it? If you say that Dean can't win, it must be because you think that you CAN win. The polls all show the Democrats hovering around similar levels. Some polls have Kerry and Clark slightly doing better against Bush. Other polls show Gephardt and Dean doing better against Bush. That in effect makes the differences in numbers statistically insignificant. Basically any or all candidates would do just as well as any or all candidates.

So let's break down the electability question for each candidate. What makes you so damn electable?

Senator John Kerry, MA. Like Dean, Kerry could be charged with being an eastern elitist candidate out of touch with regular people. His record is liberal, more liberal than Dean's in fact, and would be painted as an out of touch liberal from Taxacusettes. Kerry has never been the chief executive officer (Governor) of anything. He is a Senator. One of one hundred. A junior Senator at that. Kerry has one thing going for him. He fought in Vietnam (for about six months) and came home to oppose the war. But, Kerry also supported the War Resolution for Iraq. Thus putting into doubt any kind of effective opposition to Bush's war during the general election. It is hard to see where Kerry will get any support from. Conservatives will be put off by his eastern, liberal credentials. Liberals will be put off by his support for Bush for the war. I don't see where Kerry energizes anyone enough to defeat the President. Christ, he can't even win the Massachussetts Primary against Dean, how can he beat George W. Bush in the general election?

Senator Joe Lieberman, CT. Holy Joe, what do you know? Lieberman has been playing up the slight by Gore. Let's fact it, it's the most attention he has gotten since this campaign began. The truth is Lieberman's campaign benefitted initially from his high public profile (being the Dem running-mate) in 2000. But he never delivered a message that resonated with the Democratic supporters. I have a gut feeling that if Lieberman were nominated, many democrats would simply stay home. Lieberman is a classic example of Bush-lite (or Republican-lite). He won't convince any of the conservatives to leave Bush and support him. He'll have a difficult time energizing the base of Democrats to come out and support him enthusiastically. And moderates will ask themselves, why should I vote for someone who is trying to pretend to be Bush, when I can vote for Bush himself. This has always been the achilles heel of the DLC strategy. They hurt themselves more in the long run than they do helping themselves in the present. Because we'll never be republican enough for the republicans. Moderates will see us as wishy-washy. And Democrats will become disinterested in their own party. Lieberman loses in a landslide. Because he'll be making the argument of why Bush should be re-elected. Bush could just stay home.

Congressman Dick Gephardt, MO. Gepthardt will have union support. But lets be fair, so does Dean. Gephardt, as leader of the Congressional Democrats in the 2002 elections failed to win any seats. Even though we needed only a eight to back the House. In fact we actually lost three seats in that election. Gephardt also loses, badly, to Bush in the state of Missouri. His home state. It's important to remember that Gephardt is a Congressman, not a Senator. He represents a Democratic district in St. Louis. He has never had a difficult election fight where he has won. The only advantage Gephardt has is his union support. But Dean has matched that support. And any Democrat would win such support for the General Election anyway.

General Wesley Clark, AR. He has an impressive resume. But absolutely no political experience. It is hard to gauge the electability of someone who has never run for office before. But despite a lot of initial bruhaha. His poll numbers have retreated back to everyone elses. He does just as well against Bush as any other candidate. He may poll one or two percentage points ahead. But not much better than that. And I have seen polls that show him several points behind the other candidates. Clark would make a better VP candidate than Presidential candidate.

Senator John Edwards, NC. He is young. Is southern. But has very little experience. He was also a trial lawyer before entering politics. He has not even finished a single term in the Senate. He has accomplished very little in terms of getting important pieces of legislation through. Edwards seems better suited for a cabinet post than the Presidency.

Sharpton, Braun, and Kucinich don't have a prayer.

So what about Dean?

- he'll have to defend his support for gay civil unions. But his position is exactly the same as Dick Cheney, the Vice President, so it is hard to see how this will hurt him very badly.

- Dean has a perfect record on guns from the NRA, which will help us a lot more than people realise. States like PA, MI, WV, OH, NH and western states will find his position appealling.

- He actually polls well in states like AZ, NV, NM, OR, and CO. Newest poll shows him ahead of Bush in Maryland. If Dean can be ahead in Maryland with no or little campaigning. We'll be okay for 2004. That means Dean will do well in the states Gore carried, and if he holds those. Then we only need another 10 electoral votes to win the whole thing. Dean has potential strength in a number of states: - WV, NH, OH, MO, AZ, MT, CO, NV. And depending on who his running mate is, he can do well in: AR, LA, FL.

Dean is actually in a better position than most other Democrats because he has the potential of bringing together the Democratic Party. If he makes Clark his running mate, he can bring together the Dean and Clinton wings of the Democratic Party.

He has appeal to Independants and Moderates.

So I just don't see how anyone can say that the other Democrats are stronger than Dean against Bush. Clark has the army record, but doesn't have a message. If we try to play the Bush game when it comes down to the war and foreign affairs. We'll lose before we even begin. We have to show an alternative vision for America and the world. Not prove that we are stronger than Bush.

Basically it comes down to this, if you have to go around telling people how strong you are. You can't be very strong.
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. if you have to go around telling people how strong you are ....
Like this post? The largest blurb went to your candidate.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dean's sealed papers are under review by a judge
who will determine what will be made public. Do you think he has something to fear?
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. and of course....
...yet another Kerryite refuses to answer why he's electable, but instead attacks Dean.

Same old campaign, under new management. Hate to break it to you, but this item on the menu caused the last firing, it'll do the same here. Get a new tactic.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Kerry is electable because he has the experience -
the history. Although I like a couple of the other candidates, Kerry's RECORD speaks for him.

BTW - everything Kerry has done is out in the open and available to the public.
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. STILL couldn't do it....
....without a bash of Dean. And you barely did it at that.

Pathetic. Simply pathetic.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. His record, his record, his record....
...broken record. What record? How will his record "speak for itself?" Who will support him because of his "record?"

That's the question. He has a liberal record. Will conservatives support him? Will moderates? Doesn't everyone have "a record?"

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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Mostly everyone has an OPEN record
except for Howard Dean.
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Arrrggghhhh....help.....
....can't .....actually.....defend....candidate.....must.......attack .......Howard.....Dean......instead..........

Pathetic.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Are you defending Howard himself
or his campaign?
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. must....deflect....attention......
....from.....candidate.......must....attack.....Dean.......

You STILL haven't answered the question posed to start this thread, but you HAVE attacked Dean several times.

Pathetic.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Yep - I did - post number 5
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. Kucinich has experience as well
First as mayor of Cleveland (an executive position) then as a Congressman from Ohio.

Carol Mosely-Braun has experience as well, having served at least one term in the Senate. Her record speaks for itself, as well.

Gephardt has tons o' experience, having been a Congressman since dirt was old. He has participated in presidential campaigns before, comes from the Midwest, and has heavy union support. Much of his record speaks for itself.

How is Kerry more electable than them? And try to do it, for once, without a dig at Dean, or his supporters. I know it will be hard, but I believe in you.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Nope, there's nothing hidden in Vermont politics
Those making a fuss over the records are going to be mighty disappointed when they don't find anything in them that they don't already know.

Vermont politicians are held under a microscope by Vermonters throughout their terms. If they are good, honest and productive, we keep them. If they aren't we give them the boot. That's something else about small states. Politicians can't keep secrets because everyone knows each other's business. The Dean haters shouldn't hold their breath waiting for some juicy secret to be hidden in those sealed records. There's nothing there you don't already know.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks for your thoughts jeter
I agree....our candidate is really only as
strong as his or her support and funding.
Dean has both...more than any other candidate.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Dean's CAMPAIGN is Dean
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I minored in English....
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 04:05 PM by AWD
...and I still can't figure out what the hell that means.

Probably has something to do with your "Two Dean Minimum" rule...can't post on DU without saying his name twice.

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. of course...
It's his message and what he stands for. It's about the man. That is why I think he can get so much more support.

He can appeal to moderates and independants. He can explain coherantly why he opposed the war.
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deminflorida Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wesley Clark appeals to Veterans, Moderate Democrats...
Minorities and Women. Why, because most people know that the American Military more than any other organization in this country has sucessfully implemented an effective Affirmative Action program for years now. Even the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" program implemented by President Clinton, while not perfect as a whole - has in most part allowed another important element of our society as a whole, i.e. Gay Americans to serve their country with honor. (Me being retired military, while I'm not supposed to say I knew any of them, let me tell you...I was damn proud to serve with them). But the program should be improved and expanded. Nothings perfect.

Wes Clark being a former General understands these sucessful military programs and has managed and implemented them.

He's intelligent...Number #1 in his class at West Point and attended Oxford. He holds two masters degrees and used to teach economics.

His stance on National Defense/Forgein Policy goes without question to be the best of the nine candidates.

He's the complete package, and after today there's one more word to add to that....

Andrew Young
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I like Wesley Clark - he is among
those that I feel would make a great president.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I agree DeminFlordia,
you'll notice that I specifically mentioned Clark. I think he has many of the attributes that Dean has. Not from Washington. He opposed the war. etc.

His problem is that he has never been elected to anything. There is a big checkmark next to his name. No one knows for certain how he will do.
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deminflorida Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. I think that American History teaches us that there were
nine American Presidents that were General Officers before becoming President.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. clark will rake in votes
while dean,
i fear the other side would rather vote for bush, and starve to death..

its like offering them a compromise, instead of getting up in thier face.


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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. That's the problem...
...I guess. I suspect. I think.

No where is there any empirical evidence to show that Clark, or any other candidate, does better than Dean.

It gets repeated several times and suddenly becomes the truth.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. yeah
thats a good point =)

but im just saying from my own personal perspective..

dean scares em - right out of thier livin bajeebus shulls!!!
while clark, it just seems to me at least.. will have the opposite effect.



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deminflorida Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. Wesley Clark appeals to Veterans, Moderate Democrats...
Minorities and Women. Why, because most people know that the American Military more than any other organization in this country has sucessfully implemented an effective Affirmative Action program for years now. Even the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" program implemented by President Clinton, while not perfect as a whole - has in most part allowed another important element of our society as a whole, i.e. Gay Americans to serve their country with honor. (Me being retired military, while I'm not supposed to say I knew any of them, let me tell you...I was damn proud to serve with them). But the program should be improved and expanded. Nothings perfect.

Wes Clark being a former General understands these sucessful military programs and has managed and implemented them.

He's intelligent...Number #1 in his class at West Point and attended Oxford. He holds two masters degrees and used to teach economics.

His stance on National Defense/Forgein Policy goes without question to be the best of the nine candidates.

He's the complete package, and after today there's one more word to add to that....

Andrew Young
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. kick
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. Most everyone agrees Kerry is the most presidential
It seems everyone walks away from the debates and interviews and sit-downs impressed by Kerry's vast knowledge and command of the issues.
And
he has the record to back it up.

Most importantly, he is someone Americans would trust with national security. If someone can make the case against Bush it's John.

And stop citing polls!!! There has been NO campaign yet.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. But if electability were equated to vast knowledge and records
The Gore would have beaten Bush in 2000.

Can you not see how the Republican attack machine would go after Kerry as much as it would go after Dean?

How would Kerry fight them off? He hasn't done a good job explaining his war vote. How can we expect him to do a good job fighting off Republican attacks on some obscure piece of legislation.

Guts = electability.

Dean has more guts than any other candidate.

1) Dean wasn't afraid to speak out against the war when it was very popular.

2) Having captured the left-wing anti war vote. Dean hasn't been afraid taking some more conservative positions such as supporting gun rights.

3) Dean is smart enough to realize that there is a whole different constituency out there that is ready for the picking.

Dean = guts. Guts = electability.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. Kerry - Prosecutor, Lt. Governor
He has had more experience than just a U.S. Senator. His war stance is fine and more in line with most people, most people understand voting to authorize force to get inspectors in Iraq. Most liberals know in their hearts he would never have led us into this war. Kerry has stronger on defense, crime, small business, fighting terrorism, and other centrist issues than Bush. And he has the liberal issues on the environment, women, children, minorities etc., that most people wouldn't have a problem with at all. The only area where they can hit him is his defense of GLBT rights.

But, if he can't get a handle on Howard Dean he shouldn't be the candidate. Dean is running the exact campaign that Bush ran against Gore. If nobody can defeat it against Dean, they won't be able to defeat it against Bush. Not saying that Dean would be able to beat Bush, but it is true none of the others would either.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Good description of Kerry's policy on the war...
I think also many politicians as well as people were blinded into actually trusting the Bush administration after 9/11.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
24. He Won't Raise Taxes, He Can Be Trusted With National Security...
He's a bipartisan bridge builder, he is not a tax-and-spend liberal, he's a pork slasher, he has a passable health care package (both simple AND cheap), he can slam Bush on being AWOL, he has a sensible yet visionary energy package (even conservatives want energy independence) that is more than a campaign afterthought, he has an amazing service for tuition program, a anti-terrorism vision that is more far-reaching than any others - as a result of 8 years as chair of the terrorism committee, and, well, he just looks Presidential.
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jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. thoughts on clark
Time to speak for my candidate.

Here are my two limited doubts about Wes Clark:

- Will there be a reflexive anti-Clark election day boycott by some on the left of the Democratic Party simply because he's a General without considering his actual positions?

- There could be a funds shortfall in the May through August period.

Now, the general things it will take to win, imo, are several:

1) A strong perception in the electorate that the candidate is a back-boned, national security leader. I believe Wes Clark was right in saying during the debate that you must be able to knock George Bush off his 9/11, Iraq, national security pedestal if you expect to be able to have a discourse on the other issues critically important to the electorate.

2) You must be able to mount a strong campaign. I'm not one of those that believe the Clark campaign has bobbled along. In money, grassroots organizational support and buzz it's second to Gov Dean's and it ramped up in a very short time frame. How "electable" did Dean look in January. I'm concerned that Clark handicapped himself in the primary nomination process by waiting too late BUT this would not be a hindrance in the GE. And, Clark, like Dean, isn't going to take any guff from pundits, media, or opponents. He's entire career proves him an able fighter.

3) Likeability. Both Clinton and Bush (yes, hard to believe) were rated highly on this factor and in our TV election age, it is very important. Clark is congenial, warm, smart and quickwitted. He is better unscripted than scripted. Important attributes, I believe.

4) Policy positions. You must have strong Democratic mainstream positions on numerous issues: education, healthcare, jobs, environment, abortion rights, civil rights. Clark's positions are pretty detailed and very easy to support for mainstream Democrats. At the same time, you cannot go to far to alienate moderate Dems and independents. I think Clark holds up well:

http://clark04.com/issues/
http://www.clark04.com/issues/10pledges/
http://www.clark04.com/story/40/
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. You should read my post
about the extreme left....it's starting to look promising for Clark even with that part of the Democratic constituency; He has been endorsed by a couple of very left factions of the Democratic party.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=870823
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Phelan Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
27. History
Honestly the activist democrats are going to vote against Bush right, no matter who our candidate is, right?

So a centrist Clintonian campaign would be great right since we'd be going for the non-guaranteed votes?

So why does TIME and the NY Times Editorial page think that Dean is moving away from Clintonian campaign i.e Clinton '92&'96 and Gore '00 towards a campaign strategy that focuses on energizing traditional democratic supporters, a strategy Mondale and Dukakis favored? Would that not be a really really bad idea? Let me answer that for you. Of course it would!

Also again...the last democrat from above the Mason-Dixon line was Kennedy...you need red states pure and simple and they are traditionally very suspect of "New England types."

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I disagree
If all Dean did was energize the base then maybe you would have a point. But this is the primary election and it is usual for any candidate to make an appeal to the base in order to win the nomination.

That said, Dean also has a solid record as governor. He has already taken positions outside the Democratic base. He wants to put together A NEW COALITION. Not just rely on the base. Not just try to appeal to voters who have left the Democratic Party and will probably vote for Bush anyway, regardless of the nominee.

He wants to build a new majority that will keep us in power for a long time.

The Clinton strategy won us 1992 and 1996 - sure. But it also lost us the Congress in 1994 and the Presidency in 2000.

And do you doubt that Governor Cuomo, running more as a liberal in 1992, could have won the election as well?

Dukakis didn't lose the 1988 election because he was from the northeast. He led for more than a year against Bush Sr. and was nominated that year because he was the "safe" candidate. Dukakis lost because he was a wimp. He didn't fight back when attacked. His answers didn't have any moral courage to them. When Bernie Shaw asked him if he would believe in the death penalty if his wife were murdered he responded that the death penalty doesn't reduce crime.

When asked a personal question, he responded like a college professor. That is why he lost. People didn't feel a connection to him.

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
30. I somehow doubt that's truly Dick Chenney's position...
I think it was an error made during the debate and thus he has to stick with the position not to look hypocritical (oddly, being hypocritical hasn't been a problem for too many Republicans).
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Hippo, Cheney's daughter is gay
and living with her partner. It is his position. He has repeated it several times.

His position and Dean's position = the exact same thing.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
37. WHAT?
Edwards

young
southern
can win Florida
senator
need I say more?
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vdeputy Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
38. Why Clark is more electable
I'll admit my evidence is anecdotal but I work in law enforcement, a generally Republican and conservative profession. I know from all the talk around my department that the people who have turned against Bush - and there are several - can see themselves voting for a Clark but not a Dean. They'll stick with Bush first. I simply think Clark can appeal to people that Dean cannot - the cops, the veterans, etc.
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