Why I don't want to have to vote for Dean...

[Bread and Circus]

Right now, I think Dean will win the nomination. I might
be wrong. But our media s(elect)ed Bush, so I suppose they have
the power to nominate Dean.

Last night, I thought Dean showed what I don't like about him.
Frankly, without his "people powered" speeches, I don't think
there is much to him or what he has to offer. I know folks think
some of us just bash him because we want "our guy" to win, but
that is not entirely so. Yes, there is a competitive grudge we
all carry...but pound for pound, I don't think Dean does well
at all when he is not rehearsed. I also don't think Dean is the
kind of guy to jump on a grenade to save his buddy. He is intelligent
but I think he has only a few points on me, maybe 2 or 3, and I
can tell you, I am not smart enough to be a good President. Neither
is he. Notice I didn't say anything about electability, yet. Truly,
I think I would rather hold onto my generous tax cut than have
someone like Dean tell me what to do. Call me Repug if you want
but that dog don't hunt. I would be proud to pay a zillion bucks
in taxes if we got National Health Care and a space age energy system.
But Dean is not going to deliver either. He will end up fragging the
middle class just like they have all done for years. I'm middle
class and I work my behind off. I was poor enough to be on AFDC,
subsidized housing, free lunch tokens, and be homeless (living a
summer in a tent) for a short spell. I worked my way up through
public education and got a medical degree at a great state
university (UCSF). I'm self made so when Dean comes along and tries
to play the populist note it rings hollow because he is made
from a finer Hampton grade of cloth. To me, he conveys no real
"feel your pain" understanding nor does he really lay a blueprint
out that will help the middle and working classes. To further that,
I don't think he can argue his way out of a wet paper bag. When
I saw Trippi post game last night, I realized Dean's success and it
is Trippi. He is "the one". He has been running a populist campaign
since the 80's and now he has struck gold with his moldable trimmer,
Dean. Powered by kids, the ego of the down-trodden masses, bits,
and bytes, Dean has risen to the crest. He has been pushed over
the top by the media since June. I truly think he is the "media's
nominee". I used to think it was a VRWC but now I don't, rather
I think it is more of a product that his is the most interesting
story to sell. Our inept media is a prostitute for money and ratings
alone. I think Dean's people powered business is just what they
want. Sure, I think it serves Rove's purpose. I think Dean will
be a woeful candidate and we will all be uncomfortable from March
till November. If the pre-calculated uptick in the economy continues
then Dean better hope for a lot of soldiers dying. If Bush gestures
to "bring them home", then just what will Dean (and we have)? The
same argument can go for any candidate but I think Dean is one
of a few where such a scenario will be devastating. I have no hope
that I can convince others here or elsewhere to see it as I do.
Frankly, I am beyond caring too much. I am just glad people on DU
have given Clark a fair shake because I used to worry he would just
go un-noticed. I respect and appreciate Clark for a great many
things but I know he is not perfect and he is far from
"Mr. Super Lifelong Democrat".
I also understand why Dems abroad haven't totally embraced him,
it would kind of be akin to a lifelong labor leader running
for the Republican nomination. It's all about prejudice, pre-conceived
notions, and "who you trust". Prima facia, Dems don't trust career
military types to be at the "head of their party". Or so it seems.
Clark has actually exceeded my expectations and so have Dems in
giving him a chance. But back to Dean, it is honestly dismaying to
me that he may be the "embodiment" of the party. So be it. I can't
save from it. I just hope folks realize that he is not what he
is cracked up to be. There is alchemy at play. Big magic. I am not
saying it is sinister but there is a man behind the curtain. As long
as people know and acknowledge reality, I can vote for Dean.

[hedda_foil]

1. I'm perfectly willing to believe that you sincerely believe this.

I don't agree at all, but I respect your point of view. I hope you will respect mine. Perhaps, if Dean is the nominee, you will come to understand and appreciate his tremendous strength as a candidate and as chief executive in the worst possible of times. Perhaps you will not. Perhaps, if Clark is the candidate, I will come to see the same in him. Perhaps I will not. But the alternative of four more years of Bush are too horrendous to contemplate. Do you agree we must work as hard as we can to get our nominee elected? That's all that's required right now. That and avoiding the habit of eating our own.

[Bread and Circus]

2. You make a fair argument...I gotta respect that...

I am pretty sure we will see Dean as the nominee.

[Selwynn]

22. I agree - I will support either a clark or dean nominee ...

reguardless of reservations about dean which I consider to be matters of personal taste.

[WiseMen]

48. Sad but true: DEAN IS A PRODUCT OF POLITICAL STRATEGY

It is sad for us Dems that the likely nominiee really has no past record of passion and struggle for the principles that we all hold so dear.

We all wanted so much to believe.

[bitchkitty]

49. Us Dems?

You don't speak for me, bubba.

[HuckleB]

66. Really?

Yeah, sure, he has no record of serious public service? No "passion"? No "struggle"? Baloney. Those are grand statements made with nothing to back them up. You ignore the man's history in order to make those statements. There is no perfect candidate. It's time we all understood that and moved forward, trying to find the best candidate without beating 'em all to a pulp.

[ExDeaniacForClark]

88. dean knows danger?

out of curiosity--what was the most stressful time dean weathered? a budget deficit? signing the civil union bill that the vermont supreme court demanded? i have a hard time swallowing the idea that dean would be better in a pinch than someone like kerry or clark.

[Gloria]

3. Well stated....

Your comment about his not being the type to jump on a grenade for a buddy struck me. Because I've been reflecting on how Clark's emotions about the troops seem to well up from deep inside him. How he reacts to the people he worked with and commanded over the years seems to reinforce his stated reasons for running...that he genuinely sees this country going down the tubes under Bush. There is something real and earnest about Clark. I don't get the same feeling of connection with Dean.

[Eloriel]

24. And for me it's precisely

the opposite.

[Tatiana]

60. In his interview with Dan Rather... he cried.

Not that faux "I'm in over my head and I don't know what the F to do" that Bush does... but an honest, sincere, heartfelt sorrow for that little baby. He wanted to save her. He wanted to save the Rwandans. He loves PEOPLE, not just Americans. The man has a heart of gold.

That's what got me. I can't get the image of those tears out of my mind as he flipped through that photo book. True compassioned displayed by a commendable leader.

[Dagaz]

4. Is there a way to make this the post of the month?

Best I've seen...EVER!! It's like a rant but very logical too. A stream of consciousness post? Just amazing.

[farmbo]

23. Alas...FD already posts this at least once a month...:)

You've been beating on Dean and pressing for Clark constantly since August.

Maybe its time to lay off for a while.

:crazy:

[Art_from_Ark]

5. Dean was not my first choice

My first choice was the man pictured on the left. But he's not running, much to my great dismay. I can look at all the declared Democratic candidates and find things I like, and things I don't like. I might not vote for Dean in the primary, but if he gets the nomination, he gets my vote in November. If Clark gets nominated, he gets my vote. And so on, down through the list. Simple as that.

I voted third party once-- in 1980. I thought there was no difference between Carter and Reagan (Boy, was I wrong!) and went with John Anderson, a "reformed" Republican who was running as an "Independent" to the left of Carter. Anderson ended up getting 6% of the vote, and qualifying for Federal matching funds for 1984, but he soon faded away into obscurity. I have since come to the conclusion that he never left the Republicans, that it was actually planned for him to do an end run around Carter to siphon off votes from naive voters like me so that Reagan would have an easier job of beating Carter. The result was an unmitigated disaster of 12 years of Repug rule.

I will never make the same mistake again.

[RetroLounge]

40. Here here.

I also voted for Anderson, being a naive 19 yr old.

Never again. Never.

THanks for the reminder.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

6. Then don't.

[ACK]

7. This almost did it.

You almost talked about the candidate and his positions without getting personal.

You almost defined what I said in another thread about a meaningful passionate arguement over the candidates that could still be constructive.

Almost.

The "woeful" candidate stuff was harsh and there were a few other personal jabs thrown in there.

I am leaning toward Clark even though I really prefer Kerry (two bad votes does not invalidate a career of good work).

Honestly, considering the excellent campaign the man has run I would vote for Dean in a second if it was NOT for one killer issue.

The same issue that killed Mondale and Dukakis.

Taxes.

You can't say that you will raise taxes (even if you do like Clinton to balance the budget).

It is not just political suicide. It is also a bad idea philosophically.

Until the recovery becomes real and not some artificial quarterly blip of tax rebate funds and profit taking, you want to give the middle class and the working class a break.

That is a good Al Gore kind of thing to do.

Don't believe for a second Deanies that one issue cannot kill a candidate.

It can.

[Bread and Circus]

13. You actually bring up the stone cold truth about electability...

But I hope some of my thoughts resonate.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. Without a doubt that issue would kill most candidates

but that is because most candidates aren't able to frame the issue in a way that shows people how their meager tax cut is actually costing them a lot more than what it's saving them. Dean does that in a very clear and concise way. Basically, he takes and issue that normally wouldn't ever sell in a million years and makes it entirely marketable. It's working too. Here's why I am confident he can and will sell this...

NH is a VERY conservative state. The number one issue there is taxes. The number two issue is guns. NH chose not to fund public kindergarden to avoid taxes. That's how big of an issue it is there. The NH political make up has a majority of Indepenedents, most of them leaning more towards the conservative side than the liberal side. Dean is blowing everyone else away in NH and he is hammering home the fact that ALL the tax cuts need to go. He has the highest percentage of those Independent voters behind him, too.

To be perfectly honest with you, I was deeply concerned about how this issue would play for Dean in NH, because it's really a HUGE issue there. If Dean can frame the tax issue in a marketable way in the anti-tax conservative bastion of NH, he can sell it ANYWHERE.

For the record, I live right along the border in Vermont and I work in NH. I'm just as familiar with the politics of NH as people who live there are.

[ACK]

55. I have to respectfully disagree when it comes to national politics

We all know how hard Dean will fight.

We all know that the repukes will try and crucify him.

But, the real deal is that Mondale was very passionate about his tax position and more articulate than even Dukakis on this matter.

But..

We don't have the media machine in place to fight this kind of open invitation to frame a Dem candidate as a "tax and spend" liberal.

Not only that, to a lot of families, $485 - 1924 dollars worth of tax relief really does count. I never had a problem with these tax cuts.

The real prob with the tax cuts were of course a smoke screen for giveaways to the rich. If 99.9% of the tax cuts went to the rich can't we as a nation afford to repeal just the 99.9% and leave the rest alone?

We have criticized the repukes many times for a "baby out with the bathwater" mentality toward governmental programs.

We can not really afford to take, IMO, that same attitude with tax cuts especially with the right-wing smear machine in full motion.

[KaraokeKarlton]

56. Dean is far better at framing issues than Mondale

He can sell this. I went to see a couple of his speeches in NH and he talked about repealing the tax cuts loudly and proudly and the people of NH were responding very positively. Keep in mind that NH is a state that chose not having to pay taxes over providing public kindergarden for the children of NH. It's huge. If Dean can sell it in NH, he can sell it nationally.

[ACK]

57. Really.. I hope so...

I still worries the every living hell out of me both from a political and a philosophical point of view.

Like I said in my first response or so I think the lower income middle class cuts were good but the fact it was just a smoke screen for bigger cuts to the rich were the problem.

This is my major policy issue problem with Dean right now. I hate it because I do like the way he runs a campaign and is getting donations and doing grassroots campaigning.

[KaraokeKarlton]

61. Look at it this way

Dean is that man that signed Civil Unions into law just 6 months before the 2000 election. The usual religious right wing suspects came to Vermont and ran a very disgusting hate campaign against him. When it all started, 70% of Vermont strongly opposed Civil Unions and were upset that Dean signed them. He had to wear a bullet proof vest, was spit on, got death threats, was called a "fag" and "child molester", his vehicle was vandalized and his family got harassed at home with crank phone calls. Instead of cowering in some corner and avoiding facing the fury of the people, he went right to protests and talked to people. He dealt with it all head on. By the time it was all over he had won that election and Vermonters grew to not only accept Civil Unions, but support them. Now 70% or more of Vermont supports Civil Unions.

If Dean can frame the Civil Union issue in a way that reaches voters who strongly opposed them while being attacked on all sides by the nastiest hate campaign run against anyone that I ever recall occurring AND win such a hotly contested election I have no doubt whatsoever that he can continue to win people over on the tax issue. He explains very clearly and concisely that the middle tax cuts along with the cuts for the wealthy have cost the middle class a hell of a lot more than it saved us. He's right and people realize that when they hear what he has to say.

Dean is a brilliant campaigner and he also has a plan to reform the tax system so that is more fair to the middle class anyhow. So, if he finds that people stop responding to what he's saying right now about the issue he will adjust what he says and start talking about his plans for reform too.

I have to point out as well that if Dean had the ability to win his last election, he is the best prepared to face the guaranteed shit storm that will be coming from the Bush camp. None of the others are tried and tested against a full blown hate campaign. Dean is, and he beat it.

[Blue_Roses]

27. that was my

reason for questioning Dean. He was my choice in the beginning and I even walked past a "draft Clark" table this summer outside one of the stores here in Arkansas because I felt so strong about his "passion" and anger. Even when Clark entered the race I didn't wavor, until Dean made the comment about Clark being a Republican. I thought it was low blow and an obvious ploy because he may have felt threatened.

Since then I have been watching and following Clark much closer and I have to say I am very impressed with him. Not only his obvious military leadership, but also because of his even temperment. While I can appreciate Dean's "anger" I often see it as a childist temper tantrum.

He does seem to be doing better at holding his tongue, but who knows what will set him off. This bothers me. However, even with putting his anger aside, there STILL is this issue with repealing the entire tax cut. I just don't see taking away the marriage tax or the child tax credit. Makes no sense and I agree with you, it's political suicide.

[batesboys]

46. Yep

If I still lived in Chicago, where I grew up, I would probably be in the Dean camp. I have learned so much since moving to another Midwest city...a city that is very conservative. Most Dems here are conservative, too.

This is what may kick us in the butt if we do not vote tatically to nominate a candidate who will be acceptable to Dems of all variations, swing voters and angry Republicans.

I'll be shredded for this but Dean will not draw these people to the voting booth....many may even vote for bush as the lesser of two evils.

[1songbird]

8. Brace yourself here they come familydoctor.

Before the flaming starts let me get my two cents in. What ticks me off is that no one seems to be listening to what ordinary folks are saying about Dean. I listen to talk radio here locally and blacks and other minorities are not feeling Mr. Dean. They don't think he has a message that resonates with them. The Conf. Flag issue has not died down and some are still bristling from those remarks. He may get the nomination but I don't think minority voters will show up to support him in large numbers. This is very important if we are going to beat Bush.

[Corgigal]

16. The Conf. Flag issue is dead

as a doornail here and I live in the south.

[1songbird]

21. It's not being discussed in the national media any more but you better

believe that the issue is not dead and forgotten. I listened about two weeks ago to a local radio station here in Cincy talk about Dean and his statements for three hours. The comments were mentioned again today because Sharpton will be in town talking about his campaign. If I were a betting woman I'd say that those comments will be a key feature of the interview.

[blm]

52. Yes...same here in SC.

I don't understand why any Democrat could even pretend that those remarks were meaningless.

[cigarstore]

87. Oh it's not a dead issue, not one little bit

It is gonna be quoted in many, many, MANY editorials and news items from now until next...

Same goes for his metrosexual comment

and his visits to the gay bars.

And the strange relationship he has with his wife

and his papers being sealed and his Vietnam "Bad back" deferment

and his many and varied statements on the Iraq war.

Howard Bruish Dean is going to be painted as the whacko leader of the whacko Left.

He will not get the nomination though, so not to worry.

[angee_is_mad]

17. doesn't need them

I honestly feel that Dean thinks that he doesn't have to put to much effort in getting the minority vote right now, except when he goes to S.C. The DLC will round up the base for him after the nomination. Yes, I know he has been in Harlem, yes I know Jesse Jr. supports him but I feel that his main focus right now is the southern white male vote. Those are the votes that could go to Bush, because the black votes has no where else to go, but to him.
It gets kinda tiring to be constantly taken for granted by this party. I am starting to get disillusioned by the candidates and is now focusing on my local elections and the 2 houses. I feel that they will look out for my interest more then any of the candidates running for president.

[1songbird]

26. I get tired of being taken for granted as well.

I believe we have to work from within in order to get our issues heard. This is my strategy with this election. If it does not work then I will have to look at the Green party.

[angee_is_mad]

30. toe the partyline

when you work within they expect you to toe the partyline so that the candidate can get elected.

[1songbird]

34. They expect that but

I feel that I have to try. I have one simple goal and that is to bring attention to discrepancies in drug law sentencing. I don't feel that I'm asking for the moon. There are so many issues but I'll just start here and plug away at it.

[blm]

81. Hey...that was an issue

that Kerry fought for in the Senate. He was the first to address the disparity in drug sentencing cases. His take on drug laws is treat it like Holland. Ignore the casual users and treat the addicts on demand.

[BullDozer]

43. Here here!!

It gets kinda tiring to be constantly taken for granted by this party.

Didn't Sharpton say something about leaving the dance with the one that brought you? It rings loud and clear!

::cheers::

[angee_is_mad]

45. amen

[KaraokeKarlton]

9. As a Vermonter I will tell you this

Of all politicians I have ever seen in an executive position, by far, Dean has been the MOST consistent in actually doing what he says he's going to do. And he's ALWAYS tried to do what he said he would do. He was my governor for 12 years, and I can tell you with confidence that if Howard Dean tells you he's going to do something he has EVERY intention of doing it. He's also great at presenting proposals for change that normally would scare people in a way that can actually pass. If anyone can cut through the red tape inside Washington to get things Done, Howard Dean is definitely the one who can do it. He's not perfect and you can depend on disagreeing with him sometimes, but you'll always know where he stands and WHY he takes the position he does. You will also be able to believe what he says and depend on him to give it his all to make this a better country and do everything he can to live up to what he says he's going to do.

[Bread and Circus]

14. I hope you are right because your post is one of the few heartening..

ones I have read about Dean.

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. Well, I probably know his leadership better than anyone else here

Aside from any other Vermonters who are also members. I know there are a couple of other Vermonters lurking around somewhere. Maybe they will see this and share their views on Dean.

He'll definitely piss about everyone off at least once or twice. He sure pissed me off on more than one occassions. Funny thing is, he always ended up being right in the end. I have the utmost respect for his leadership and abilities. So do all the elected Democrats in the state because they've all endorsed him despite some of them having their share of go rounds with him. They respect him too. He's a good man.

[Blue_Roses]

29. You have to be one of

the kindest Dean supporters I've seen here. I've read several other threads that you've posted on and you've always been kind and thorough. This is what will help Dean, not the bashing of other candidates.

Thank-you for being so clear on how Dean ticks.

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. I haven't always been kind

There have been times where I have reacted badly to a few Kerry supporters who weren't being honest about Dean and things in Vermont. I tend to take the spreading of falsehoods about Dean and my state a bit personally. I have lampooned Kerry on more than one occassion. I'd prefer not to do that, though. I can see how all the negativity perpetuates itself on here, too. All it takes is just one person behaving badly and it spreads like wildfire. I'm really making an effort to encourage people to be more considerate of each other in light of recent events. A lot of people have had the wind knocked out of their sails and things are at a crossroads right now. I really feel that if the fighting and negativity continues there is going to be a devastating collapse that will lead to 4 more years of the diabolical squatter in the white house. Now is the time for understanding, compassion and mutual respect. I think we all need to make the effort to bring that about.

Thanks for the compliments, but honestly, before the last couple of days I probably didn't really deserve them.

[Blue_Roses]

37. What is really going on with Dean

and Kerry? I see friction constantly with them. However, I did see Dean give a hearty laugh and clap for Kerry's comment to Koppel during the debate. It was a "I can talk bad about my family, but you better not!"

I wish I could say such great things about the governor I had in Texas three years ago, but he ran a dirty campaign against the incumbant governor Ann Richards, and eventually left Texas only to be "selected" President. Guess what his name is...

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. Dean doesn't hold a grudge

Even those he's had heated battles with he treats like nothing happened as soon as it's over. If there are any lasting hard feelings between the two of them they wouldn't be coming from Dean. What Kerry said was funny, so it's no surprise that Dean laughed about it.

I feel bad for you having the squatter as governor. I once saw state comparisons between Texas and Vermont showing social statistics. Vermont was at or near the top on everything good and Texas was at or near the bottom on everything good. It just goes to show that it isn't the size of your state that dictates how good of a leader you'll be. It's really about what you are able to accomplish with what resources you have to work with. Dean did magnificent in that department. Bush did quite lousy. At least once he's out of the White House you won't have to live under his "rule" ever again. So things can only look up, right? :D

[Blue_Roses]

63. One can only hope!

It's very hard to convey to some who haven't lived under the "rule" in Texas, just how Republican dominated the state is. Alot of rich wealthy Baptists who IDOLIZE Bush dominate the state. It's digusting. When I voted for Gore in 2000, I literally turned around to look at the ballot box to make sure no one was pulling it out! It was that bad!

There is one section of Texas that is liberal and that is around Austin. I didn't have the luxury of living down there, I was instead in the DFW area--which is very pro-Bush. I just don't think some realize how much Rove will go to to win. He's a dirty, dirty politician. So it's not just enough to have the "right" candidate to go toe-to-toe with Bush, they will have to be very aware of Rove's tricks--and he has huge bag fulls! Just alittle info that may give you some insight on who REALLY runs the Bush movement:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/mag/issues/2003-03-01/feature2.php

If you work for Dean's campaign, I would suggest you pass this article on to them. It has some excellent incite. In fact, I think all candidates and DEMOCRATS need to read this. Let me know what you think. You can PM me if you like. Would be interested in your thoughts.

[KaraokeKarlton]

65. I'll take a look at it a little later

In the meantime, you might want to do some research on the "Take Back Vermont" campaign and the 2000 Vermont governor's election. There is no way that Rove can get any dirtier and more hateful than the "Take Back Vermonters". And Dean beat them.

No, I don't work for the Dean campaign. My personal role as a Dean supporter has focused on talking to people about Dean and telling them about what kind of a leader he was here and why I like and believe in him.

[FrenchieCat]

10. I see through

Dean too...and I don't even wear glasses. What rubbed me the wrong way is that he is willing to lie to get ahead....which makes him just an ordinary politician and nothing special. I hate that we have allowed the media to pick our candidate....and there was not a damn thing we could do about it. Makes me just as mad as Coup 2000. Dean doesn't not have that magic that so many want to see....20-25% of democrats is not a majority makes. Now, the simpletons will started loving Dean due to name recognition and association to Gore...who most held their nose to vote for.

I don't know what's wrong with this country.....but there is something wrong indeed. We have learned nothing. I feel like the pied piper has come to town...and is leading us out again. It's the motivation "tell a personal story" gimmick that is making feel people empowered....but will not win a general election. A lot of the money that Dean raised were contributions from Republicans who picked Dean out of the line up as far back as March to get rid of Kerry.......

This feels so wrong.

But many who are like myself, enlightened, will see through the Bullsh*t and will vote for Clark.....So Clark may end up being Seabiscuit......I certainly hope so.

[Melodybe]

25. He is not FUCKING SHRUB!!! Don't you understand we will be a Fascist

country if *Bush steals another fucking election! GOD, DO YOU KNOW NOTHING OF HISTORY!?! Go study Italian fascism and then come and tell me why you don't want vote for Dean if he is the nominee. Hitler didn't just take over Germany, he used their democratic system against them! Mussolini did almost all of the same shit they are doing now! Get a clue, this is our LAST FUCKING CHANCE! I don't care if fucking Lieberman gets the nomination as long as it means that Shrub and Company are out of office. WE HAVE TO GO WITH WHOEVER THE DEM IS! And you are dead wrong about Dean not being able to get the black vote, all the black people I know just want Shurb out of office. I talked to 2 black chicks at Chili's tonight that saw my Dean button and asked me about it. One said that she had even looked at his site and hoped that he would get the nomination. People just want him gone, I would vote for freaking Tom Arnold (who I fucking Loathe) if it meant getting this asshole out of power.

Please, I beg of you don't doom us all b/c the nominee is not your pick. Once Shrub and company start hauling off terrorists (otherwise know as protesters, or say democrats, or environmentalists) the blood is on your hands. And don't say I am exaggerating, I have two little boys and a husband that I love more than my own life, that I have to think about. The people in power now are greedy fucking slime-balls that have no problem sending our sons and daughters off to die so that they can make a little extra money. They have no trouble cooking the books and then stealing the life savings of hundreds of thousands of people, they are evil. Dean might lie, Dean might even masturbate to a picture of a male donkey for all I fucking care. ANYONE IS BETTER THAT WHAT WE HAVE NOW!

I just ask that you consider all the options, if you don't vote for the nominee.

[stickdog]

11. We need SOMEBODY with the guts to say the boy king is naked,

and the ability to distill the reasons why into easily digestible sentences.

We also need somebody who comes across as tough and competent.

Dean fits the bill better than any other candidate.

And he's running the best campaign, by far.

[IronLionZion]

12. That's a fair and intelligent post

I don't agree with everything but you have a right to your opinion. Come to think of it, I didn't support Dean until I saw his face on the cover of TIME and kept hearing about this maverick who can rally the grass roots and I like his campaign. Everybody should have a grass-roots campaign because that is democracy. The media does have a huge impact on people but it is important to sift through the information and decide for yourself.

I hope you will still support him if he is nominated.

[maggrwaggr]

18. three words: Anybody But Bush

And not only that -- i'm looking for someone who will re-create the democratic party and only Dean seems to have the gumption, and the infrastructure to do that.

I want all these assholes out on their ears, the Democratic party is a monumental FAILURE and has let this country be taken over by a gang of WASP mafiosos.

The democratic party has failed. What other candidate has a strategy for rebuilding the democratic party and actually electing leaders from the ground up?

FYI, I started with Dean (long before he came out against the war), switched to Clark, then after seeing Clark on Wolf Blitzer the other day switched back to Dean. (Dean's performance on Hardball helped too).

I also heard Dean's interview on NPR where he discussed how he plans to take his grassroots internet thing to a place where it can reconstruct the democratic party. I like this a lot.

[frustrated_lefty]

20. That was a well expressed and honest post.

Zidzi posted elsewhere a quote from Clinton about Vermont voters having such strong support for Dean because he simply does what he says he's going to do. I very much have the impression that quality is the basis for Dean's mojo.

In any event, thanks for expressing your concerns so clearly...I don't think anything anyone can say right now will lay those concerns to rest, but I suspect you'll find yourself less distraught if he actually wins the election.

peace out

[Cleita]

28. If your problem is with a rich guy playing a populist

role, then may I introduce you to the Kennedys and Lyndon B. Johnson, who brought us the war on poverty and Medicare. I can't condemn a rich guy for trying to do what is right. Should all rich guys be like Bush and not give a shit?

This argument doesn't pass my sniff test.

[AP]

38. Johnson worked his way up from nothing. He had to drop out of college

and go teach high school in an immigrant community in Nowheresville, TX to get the money to pay for college. He went to night law school.

LBJ remembered his roots even when he was making money for millionaire TX oilmen later in life. (LBJ was lucky there was enough to go around for everyone when he was president.)

Kennedy was rich, but, being Catholic meant he was always a social outsider. The working class and immigrants totally related to him despite his millions. And, if you're going to run a Democratic playboy, 1960 was probably the only year that was ever smart. Again, so much money to go around, everyone was feeling like James Bond.

That golden age of the American economy is OVER.

[jumptheshadow]

68. An insightful post

Kennedy *was* an outsider as a Catholic Irish American. The Democratic roots were very strong there. It was also a time when the Catholic church still stood for helping the poor and had deep ties with the labor unions. That, coupled with an Irish Catholic heritage that held an almost genetic memory of Catholic disempowerment and suffering, helped shape Kennedy's perspective.

[PatrickS]

31. Anti-Dean thread #204

Wow, must be a record today at DU!

[rumguy]

33. " I also don't think Dean is the type to jump on a grenade

to save his buddy." What does that mean?

[Bread and Circus]

79. Self-sacrifice for others is a true mark of character...

The "grenade" is just a symbolic device.

[kayleybeth]

35. I'm a diehard Clark supporter

so of course Dean is not my first choice (and JFTR I don't buy into the notion that Dean already has the nomination all sewn up), but if Dean manages to become the Democratic nominee, I will hold my nose and vote for him because I know what is at stake in this election, and we simply cannot afford another 4 years of shrub. While Dean is not my favorite of the nine, I still realize that he would be SOOOOOOOOO much better than the squatter in the white house now.

I agree with you on many of the points you made, and I think Wes Clark would make a far better president than Dean. But unfortunately we cannot afford to be picky this time around. I'll vote for General Clark in the primary, but if he doesn't win the nomination, I'll vote for the Dem who does-- all the while hoping and praying that I was wrong about Clark being the only candidate who could beat shrub in the general election.

[Mountainman]

36. I don't want to vote for Dean either, I don't like him frankly

He doesn't fire me up or make me feel good about the coming election.

Personally I feel he is a total train wreck waiting to happen and I don't like the media or Gore shoving him down our throats even before a single primary vote is cast. That alone is enough to turn me off from him.


The candidates that stand out in my book are Clark, Kusinich, Braun and Sharpton. They have the courage to talk about what comes from the heart.

If Dean is the nominee I think I will feel like I did in 2000. I wish it were otherwise but Dean and Gore do not inspire me.

[Tinoire]

39. I'm going to have to re-read this in the morning

You write very well and many of your points resonate but I am too discouraged tonight over certain events this week to write much.

There is alchemy at play. Big magic. I am not
saying it is sinister but there is a man behind the curtain. As long
as people know and acknowledge reality, I can vote for Dean.

How that resonates for me- but for both Dean and Clark.

[Bread and Circus]

70. I can understand why Tinoire, both for Dean and Clark...

[chocolateeater]

41. You are entitled to your opinion,

but I respectfully disagree with some of your points. Do you really think the people of Vermont would have re-elected Gov. Dean 5 times, if they thought he didn't understand them or was not going to do what he said he was going to do? I also think that any of the candidates would sacrfice themselves for a buddy. They are running against the Bushies and I think the candidates all know what the Bushies are capable of. :tinfoilhat: I also ask that you not judge someone just because they come from a wealthy family. Remember, our purpose is to fire Bush and replace him with someone better(It wouldn't be hard to be a better president than Bush). The only way to do that is to unite around the nominee of our party, whoever it may be. O8)

[dreissig]

44. Alchemy

Dean's a good leader. He doesn't have a detailed map yet, but it's still early. He still has to secure the nomination, among other things.

I like that he integrates new media (the Internet) and old-fashioned community organizing (the meet-ups). He gives good, direct answers to questions. I'm glad to see a surge for Dean!

[Phelan]

47. Don't give up on your candidate

I've doubled my donation for my candidate since the Gore statement, and its definitely not Dean...also I've stepped up my involvement in the grassroots movement around here where I had been sluggish...
in a way Gore's edorsement inspired me...not in the way he wanted, but as long as every other supporter and grass roots volunteer of 'those other candidates' does the same thing then this primary season is long from over.
I know Dean inspires a lot of people, a lot of dear friends of mine (that spend yesterday calling my cell phone and gloating) but he doesn't inspire me...

[ima_sinnic]

50. feel better now?

so don't vote for Dean, you have that right.

go campaign FOR your candidate instead of AGAINST another. I want BushCo ENTIRELY EXPOSED AND REPLACED and I am confident that that is the driving force motivating all of the candidates--although Lieberman makes me feel less than confident of his true loyalties and motivations. Howard Dean has demonstrated his motivation and ability to restore control of the "ship of state" to the people, to bring them together into a potent force that will overwhelm and make obsolete the warmongers and bloodsqueezers, and that is enough for me.

[DemBones DemBones]

51. You don't trust Lieberman -- aren't you lucky the media & Al Gore

aren't forcing him down your throat?

Many of us trust Dean LESS than Lieberman. And I suspect all of us started out with an open mind about Dean. I certainly wanted to believe but I see nothing there to believe in.

[GalleryGod]

73. I've STOPPED Donating to DU and am Sending the $$$ to my Guy Instead

Until the California Primary:mad:

[CWebster]

53. you said nothing

there is alot of words totally adding up to nothing other than you don't like Dean . Thanks, but I can read this tripe on any of a number of Republican talking points outlets.

As a matter of fact, the photo of Dean Clark supporters were highlighting on their sig lines is the cover of the "National Review" this week. No light between the two.

[Walt Starr]

54. Poop

:hurts:

[Bread and Circus]

71. That's pretty funny.

:hi:

[Bread and Circus]

84. Someone else here had the same response...

and I've seen poop references in defense of Dean elsewhere.

WTF is going on?

[HuckleB]

58. I don't think you said much that couldn't be said about any candidate.

Including Clark. And, umm, we're not stupid. We know Dean is fallible. If we didn't allow for fallibility, no one would get our vote. Please don't be so condescending.

[JNelson6563]

59. two words

para graphs

[molly]

62. You sum up what many are thinking and feeling

and I believe your logic is correct.

Don't give up yet tho - no votes have been cast and it is a long way until the convention!

[HuckleB]

64. sum up?

It didn't say anything that couldn't be said about every candidate? Sorry, but it's time for Dean opponents to take a long look in the mirror. It's absolutely to the point of goofiness.

[molly]

67. Every candidate?

don't think so.....we have 2 war heroes running...and candidates with MANY years of public service.....

"Frankly, without his "people powered" speeches, I don't think
there is much to him or what he has to offer. I know folks think
some of us just bash him because we want "our guy" to win, but
that is not entirely so. Yes, there is a competitive grudge we
all carry...but pound for pound, I don't think Dean does well
at all when he is not rehearsed. I also don't think Dean is the
kind of guy to jump on a grenade to save his buddy."

[HuckleB]

69. Yes.

War heroes? I honor them, but what does that really have to do with being president? And Dean doesn't have many years of public service under his belt? Sorry, the generalizations are sweeping and meaningless. The poster says it's not about just wanting "our guy" to win, and then goes on to show that it is exactly that by offering no substance.

[GalleryGod]

74. All righty, Molly!

You know W's gonna drop back into the CINC Mode for the Campaign.
How does HD contrast that?:silly:

[GalleryGod]

72. Great Job,Doc! How 'Bout this? RUNNING MATE?!

Who's going to take the 2nd Banana's Job to "help balance and buttress " the perceived Nominee's weaknesses? Just Whom,with enough gravitas,experience,likeability,and Name Recognition, with PROBABLE Voters is he going to woo & sign-on ???

Unfortunately- I think Everyone will steer their collective Campaign Buses to the "E-Z PASS >'08" Lane.

Again, Well done, Doc.

Your Duer in the Faculty Lounge:donut:
G.G.:smoke:

[smirkymonkey]

75. I have seen behind the facade for

a long time now and completely agree w/ you about Dean. I would still vote for him in a second over *, but I really don't see anything in him that,if he wins,indicates that the next four years will be anything but business as usual.

I can't understand why I am seeing so many hard-core liberals getting so excited over him. He is a centrist, a populist, but he is not who I would choose to represent the democratic party.

[blm]

76. The fact that he never fought hard before in his career

to implement what he said were his priorities (universal health care in Vt,) and let them drop shows me that he is only fighting now for himself. If he fought this hard for progressive priorities in Vermont, then I could understand his appeal.

[curse10]

77. I feel the same way

I don't get all the excitement of Dean- he's seems like a hollow candidate-- a one trick pony. He doesn't do well when he's not rehearsed-- I think he's performed rather atrociously at all the debates I've seen. But that's just my 2 cents.

[SahaleArm]

78. The debates are where we get to see the candidates think on their feet

It's quite telling about whether one can rise above stump and rhetoric.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

80. Is it pro-Dean or anti-Bush?

I suspect more of the latter which will not carry far enough to win.

[sendero]

82. this is a great thread...

.... for me to POOP on!

[Bread and Circus]

83. Was exlax in the koolaid?

I have seen a lot of posts by Dean supporter referring to
poop, there are 2 alone in this thread....what is going on?

It's so funny how the Dean supporters are into poop...

[retyred]

85. HAHAHAHA

You said kool-aid!



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[wiley]

86. Fierce!

You make me proud!

:pals: