Nader will most likely run if Dean is the Dem Candidate

[ErasureAcer]

and I will be happy to vote for Ralph. I think his vision for America is what we need...while I could never bring myself to vote for pro-death penalty dean as I couldn't bring myself to vote for pro-death penalty Gore.

link:
http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/November/12_9Ralph.shtml

In the article Ralph calls Dean a "moderate democrat."

[Sean Reynolds]

1. Ralph is a moderate liberal.......

That is whats so funny about this whole thing. Nader isn't THAT much liberal than say Dean, Kerry, Edwards or the rest. The Greens should nominate and run someone else.

[Name removed]

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[ErasureAcer]

5. Is that why Ralph has ENDORSED Kucinich...

yeah buddy...Ralph would love to see Kucinich be President.

Get your head out of your you know what.

[Ediacara]

18. Ralph NEVER endorsed Kucinich

He said he liked him best, but didn't endorse him. Ralph is in it for HIS ego, and if by some miracle of insanity Kucinich got the nomination, Ralph would find some excuse to run anyway.

Ralph is in it for his ego, and not to help liberal causes.

[ErasureAcer]

22. he asked all of his supporters to support Kucinich in the primaries...

that is more or less an endorsement.

LaDuke endorsed Kucinich too. It wouldn't make sense for Nader and/or LaDuke to support Kucinich now just to run against him later when they share many of the same beliefs.

DUH!

Nader would be happy with Kucinich as President. And if Kucinich wins the nomination, Ralph won't run.

[Ediacara]

37. Keep telling yourself that

Ralph will only be happy when Ralph is president, and he will continue to play this blackmail game with the DNC until the day he dies.

He said he liked Kucinich, but hasn't offered a formal endorsement. If SOMEHOW Kucinich wins the nomination, Ralph would still run, because it's about EGO, not issues.

If he's so goddamned concerned with what the DNC does, he should run as a fucking Democrat.

[Name removed]

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[Ediacara]

48. NADER=EGO

Don't you get it!?

Nader knows that Kucinich won't win the nomination, so he can yammer on about how he likes Kucinich all he wants, and still run.

If Nader wanted to be part of the process, he should run as a Democrat.

He won't because of his ego.

[ErasureAcer]

60. Kucinich can win the nomination...

He is increasingly rising in the polls and those are only of "potential" democratic primary/caucus voters. Kucinich appeals to a whole different contingent of people outside of those being polled. You'll see in the months to come that Kucinich can very well win the nomination despite media bias.

[Ediacara]

65. rising in the polls from 1.5% to 2%

...

[jsw_81]

88. Logic?

You're voting for Ralph Nader and lecturing others about logic? Please. You and your fellow Greens know nothing about logic.

Here we are, about to nominate the most liberal candidate in decades, a man who signed a gay civil unions bill while serving as governor of what is arguably the most liberal state in the union, and you lefties are still whining that that's not good enough?!? Incredible. I am now convinced that the Green "party" is nothing more than a subsidiary of the GOP.

[SahaleArm]

96. Dean's a liberal? I must have missed that memo *nm*

[jsw_81]

110. Yes, he's quite liberal

All this stuff we hear about Dean being a "moderate" is because he was considered moderate in Vermont, an extremely liberal state. This is a state that elected an actual socialist to Congress and re-elected him by landslides several times. Outside of Vermont, Dean would be considered very liberal, far more liberal than Clinton or Gore.

And he's DEFINITELY more of a liberal than General Wesley "I voted for Reagan and support a flag burning amendment" Clark.

[Melodybe]

116. Please we are focusing on changing the people that want to vote for Nader

The message is WE ALL HAVE TO UNITE! Greens, Dems, Socialists,Liberaterians,former Republicans, it doesn't matter we are all under the same tent now. Cause if Bush wins again we are all equally FUCKED!

[SahaleArm]

146. Not too happy about my questioning Dean's new found liberal streak?

Get used to it.

[ErasureAcer]

97. Keep believing that...

I want equal rights, including marriage for all people in this land.

Civil unions just doesn't cut it.

If you want me to give up my moral beliefs to vote for people who support the continuation of crappy wars...than you're kidding yourself just as you think I'm working for the GOP.

[Ediacara]

103. tell me, oh so wise one

what's the difference between marriage and a civil union?

[ErasureAcer]

109. seperate but equal is not equal.

and even then...civil unions don't guarantee all rights(or so I've read).

Dean isn't even for national civil unions...so as President I don't even see why he raises this as an issue. As President he isn't going to do anything for the GLBT community.

If you believe there is no difference between CU and marriage...well then lets just make it all MARRIAGE then...simple as that. Equal rights for human beings.

[Name removed]

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[ErasureAcer]

121. Dean said it himself, homosexual rights is a state issue

Go look it up...I've heard him say it many times before.

Unless he somehow pulled one of his famous flip-flops on the issue.

For what rights CUs don't guarantee? One, the right to marry. That alone is enough.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

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[jsw_81]

114. We live in a rather conservative country

You should be thankful that major presidential candidates are even considering the idea of civil unions. There are tens of millions of voters in this country who don't even want gays to breathe, much less get married.

[Tinoire]

29. DinoBoy- unresearched posts like that come across as... silly

I hope it's not a complete surprise to you that Nader has, for all intents and purposes, not only endorsed Kucinich, but he has urged Greens, Independents and Progressives to support Kucinich. He has not only toured with Kucinich but he has also pledged that he will not run if Kucinich is the Democratic nominee because then there will be a clear, distinct, unmissable difference between the Democrat and the Republican. Now if that isn't an endorsement, I don't know what is.

Do you know who the DLC and the Republicans fear the most?

It's Kucinich which is why you have all this marginalization and media black-out.

With Kucinich, you don't need any silly rallying cries like ABB that fall flat their first day but still refuse to die gracefully after 3 months because behind Kucinich every true Liberal and Democrat can unite and they know this.

With Kucinich, you have the progress that everyone promises but can't really prove.

With Kucinich, you have a true proven dedication to peace and justice.

A true battle against corporate filth. A true battle for the people.

A true reason for the majority to get out of bed and vote FOR someone, as opposed to AGAINST someone.

And you know what the true beauty of Kucinich is? You don't need to beat him into people. He comes with a proven record that can be examined by all and no shady skeletons in his path.

Nader knows this. And Nader has endorsed him. Nader has delivered the Green vote to Kucinich on a platter. I pray the Dems won't sneer at at because the media told them to.

[Ediacara]

45. Tinoire - Bitter and rambling posts like this come across as... bitter and

Kucinich was not endorsed by Nader.

I don't give a fuck if he sleeps in the same bed with Kucinich, he hasn't endorsed him.

Anyway, if Nader really cares what the DNC does, why doesn't he get WITHIN the process and run as a Democrat?

The answer is: EGO.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. DINO, you're a one-note Johnny about Nader. eom

[Ediacara]

67. thanks for the input

[Tinoire]

63. The only bitterness is comig from your posts

because you can't take people telling you you're wrong.

Nader? Run as a Democrat? So Centrists can say he's amusing/refreshing/inspiring but unelectable? If you can ever get over your bitterness over 2000 (a bitterness which should be directed at the DLC and Gore for a very poor campaign) then you might understand how ludicrous that idea is.

Nader is showing us our shame, rubbing our noses in it until we do what we need to do to present a clear alternative and as a Liberal, I am grateful to Nader for that.

Without people like Nader, we'd be so far to the Right basking in the reassurance that we hold all non-Republican votes captive and can pander to corporations to our heart's content. Well we don't hold those votes captive and it's time we realized we need to work for them instead of paying lip service to people's needs.

And Americans wonder why the Europeans have governments that are more responsive to the people.

The Ego is in the Democratic Party and unfortunately it's an ego that will kill us if we don't get it in check.

[Ediacara]

66. Yes Nader should run as a Democrat

If he's going to sit atop his ego-throne and try to blackmail the DNC telling them who they need to vote for or else he'll unleash his ego.... well he should at least have the balls to face a REAL primary election.

His EGO and personal dislike of Al Gore was a major factor in putting George Bush in the White House and now his EGO is at it again.

If he wants a say, then he should have the courage to get involved in the process.

All I see from Ralph is ego and cowardace.

[Old and In the Way]

133. If Nader was running as a Democrat in this primary....

He'd be moaning about ABC pulling their embedded reporter.

Of course he won't run in the primaries. Either he's blinded by his ego and totally naive about the dynamics of the American political process today or he's secretly in bed with the Repubicans to split the activist left of center votes available to the Democrats. Take your pick....

[aquart]

56. Nothing wrong with endorsing Kucinich. He's a fine man.

I hope he shows startlingly well.

EVERYTHING wrong with pulling a 2000 and splitting the Dem vote because you don't like the candidate that's finally chosen.

Juvenile, childish, pick up my ball and go home schoolyard stupidity, in fact.

But you know best. Take the high road and look down on us as we die from the poisons Bush is unleashing everywhere. You'll be morally safe, after all.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

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[Ediacara]

105. great comeback

don't quit your day job...

[LosinIt]

3. well isn't that special?

enjoy the next four years of * then.

[RandomKoolzip]

4. Ah, so you'd like another

heapin' helpin' of Bush, huh? Smart move.

[ErasureAcer]

17. The way I see it...

Dean will keep the death penalty. Bush will keep the death penalty.
Dean will keep the illegal iraqi war going on. Bush will keep the illegal iraqi war going on.
Dean won't allow gay marriage. Bush won't allow gay marriage.
Dean won't change the way elections are run(as seen by his own opting out of Public Financing) and Bush won't change the way elections are run.
Dean won't cut the pentagon budget. Bush won't cut the pentagon budget.
Dean won't decriminalize weed. Bush won't decriminalize weed.

This damn list can go on forever

A vote for Dean is more or less a vote for Bush.

[ThePeat]

23. Except...

Dean will not actively pursue a fascist agenda, Bush will.

That ends it for me.

[RandomKoolzip]

30. Beautiful. End of story.

Welcome to DU, ThePeat! With posts like that, you are a most welcome DUer in my book.

[ErasureAcer]

42. Nader won't rule by fascism either...

so your point is?

What makes Dean better than Nader? Why aren't the Dean voters the ones who are voting for the wrong candidate and "wasting their vote"?

Don't give me that BS.

A vote for Dean is a vote for Bush on 2 levels. First, Bush and Dean have similar platforms as I've mentioned which can not be said about Nader and Bush. Second, a vote for Dean could have gone to Nader in his conquest to defeat Bush.

I'm voting ABB...anyone but Bush...my choice just happens to be Kucinich first and Nader second. One of them will run and one of them will get my vote.

If you don't want Bush to get elected YOU CHANGE YOUR VOTE TO MY CANDIDATE! If anyone thinks that is proposterous...they should shut the hell Nader supporters.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Of course Nader won't rule by facsism

He doesn't stand a chance of getting elected. He only stands to help Bush get elected.

[Melodybe]

64. GOD DAMN IT!! The repubs are fucking praying for Nadar to run again...

So people like you will will split the vote again! And guess what that leads to NAZIUSA 2004! Nader doesn't care about you! And if DK (who I actually like) tries to take his voters away from the Democrats by running with Nader, then he doesn't give a shit about you either. If they fucking cared they would realise that everyone that is not a fucking freeper has to be with us. There is NO other option! A VOTE FOR NADER=A VOTE FOR NAZI USA!

[patricia92243]

78. YEP!

you are right

[ErasureAcer]

79. There are 2 groups of people who lost the election

1. Al Gore and whomever was running his campaign
2. The non-voters

You can't blame me for supporting the candidate of my choice, in a free society, of ruining the election.

If you don't want to see Bush re-elected I suggest you nominate someone with a solid platform (which I don't think Dean, Gephardt or Clark represent just as Al Gore didn't) and if you want to nominate someone with a lousy platform as these poll leaders...you better get out the vote(for I won't be voting for them)...you better work your ass off to energize those turned off to politics(maybe this has something to do with the candidates platform, no?). If you do those 2 things...Bush will be defeated...but don't blame me for partaking in my right to vote for whomever I want to vote for.

This country is supposed to be about freedom. And I'll be free to vote for whomever I please. I tend to vote for people who have a vision for humanity that deals with justice, equal rights, freedom, and the love for life as we know it.

If you want me to support the dem candidate I suggest you also throw your support behind people with that vision, I suggest Dennis Kucinich.

[ErasureAcer]

82. One more note...

if Nader wasn't running...I'd probably for Socialist Party or the Natural Law Party.

I wouldn't vote for the front-running Dems at the moment(Dean, etc..).

Die-Hard democrats need to get out of their head that people will vote for them just because they're the most organized opposition to the Republicans.

If Nader isn't the most viable 3rd party candidate, then someone else is...so this has nothing to do with Nader but everything to do with the similarities between the 2 leading parties in this nation.

[RandomKoolzip]

94. Socialist Party???

There you have it, people. Dude, THIS IS THE REAL WORLD. Socialists have about as much chance of winning the White House as JJ WAlker from "Good Times" does. You might as well pin your hopes on JFK coming back from the dead..and while you're at it, realize that AMerican Socailists are, at best, insignificant to our electoral process, at orst, monkeyrenchers who cost liberals elections. You guys represent something like .3% of the population. You're dreamers. Not that there's anything wrong with being a utopian idealist, but you are not being realistic by throwing your lot in with the Socialists.

Listen, I voted for Nader in 2000, and my stupid actions helped Bush seize power. I was selfish, and naive, and I regret it. I assure you, you will too.

[ErasureAcer]

Just because you live your life one way doesn't mean I have to follow...

You seem to have singled yourself down to 2 very similar parties, Democrats and Republicans.

I on the other hand have used the rights given to me to vote for the person I choose to vote for. If I vote the Socialist candidate or anyone else...what does that matter? That is my vote...you have yours and I have mine.

If I had to vote between a pro-death penalty democrat and a pro-death penalty republican or be shot in the head...I would be shot in the head.

I'm willing to face the repercussions of my votes...if Bush throws everyone he dislikes in camps...at least I know I voted for someone who believed in what I believe in.

And at the end of the day...that's all that matters. I can't live with myself knowing I voted for someone who I disagree with on many key issues...that includes Dean, Clark and Gephardt. I'd rather die than vote for one of them or Bush.

[RandomKoolzip]

122. Compromise is central to the political process.

It's nice to have ideals, it really is. In a better world, Kucinich WOULD be president, we'd all have free haelth care, and the death penalty would be repealed...But we are not living in that world. I said "WE," not "you" nor "I" but both of us.

I have to share this world with you, and you will be fucking it up for me if you allow the vote to be split in 2004. I realize that first hand, because the world as it stands in 2003 is much worse than it was in 2000, and I hold myself partly to blame for that- I voted for Ralph, which knocked down any united opposition to Bush. Even without the vote-tampering that went on, that 3% that split the ticket was a significant number....And now we have this murdering chimp in the oval office.

DO you want a repeat of that scenario?

No one is trying to take you r rights aay here, we simply are intervening- you are pursuing a rash and irresponsible course of action.

I used to be a Socialist myself. I used to think exactly as you do- and I was wrong. We all want this world and this country to be a better one. That is not what's up for debate here. What we are arguing about is choosing an effective but slo method for improving things or an ineffective but instantly-gratifying-to-the-conscience method of progressing towards a better world. As a fellow earthling with a conscience, please reconsider.


After a while, it's just not fun hitting your head against a wall.

[ErasureAcer]

125. Exactly...

that's why I plan on leaving the country as soon I can find work in another country.

it isn't worth banging my head against the stupidity of American Politicians/voters.

I can go somewhere else and deal with saner politicians who respect life.

[Ediacara]

128. awww

gonna go run off to mommy after you ruined the country for everyone else.

Do us all a favor and don't bother voting if that's going to be your attitude.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[ErasureAcer]

144. how am I ruining your country if my vote doesn't even affect the election?

the only way my vote would affect you is if my candidate wins. I doubt any third party candidate will win just because he/she will not be able to be in the debates.

So i'm not ruining your country at all. If anyone is ruining the country it is the 100 million voters who don't VOTE! And you get to live with them til the day you die.

Congratulations.

owned.

[Ediacara]

155. you're funny

and in denial that voting third party has consequences.

Owned, that's cute, you sound like an Icy Hot:

[ThirdWheelLegend]

162. Is that like being in denial

That continually compromising and moving the party further to the right does has consequences?

TWL

[Spirochete]

167. So will we

You're probably wasting your breath here. after all, this isn't fuckthedemocratsbecausetheywon'tvotemyway.com

[RandomKoolzip]

142. I felt a lot better after I realized the problem was with ME

and NOT the Dems...as I'm sure you will realize sooner or later. You are free to throw your vote away, and by proxy promote fascism. No one is trying to take your right to vote away.

Jesus, this is hopeless. It's like talking to a Teddy Ruxpin doll....

Great. I've just wasted time trying to help out someone who's just gonna chicken out and leave America anyways. Fer crissakes, how the hell do you think people are gonna have any fucking sympathy for you now that you've admitted that? SO from your perch in whatever country you move to, you see Bush regain the White House, and you can say to yourself, "well, at least I did what I thought was right." But you won't have to live with the consequences.

Thanks.

[ErasureAcer]

149. I'm fighting for what I believe in...

I'm voting my conscience.

I may be around one more presidential election(2008) but if I don't win...what's the point? Some wars are just unwinnable, Iraq for instance, I'd rather move to another country that has a respect for its citizens.

This country does not.

The problem with America is the Republicans and the Democrats. Take a look at the votes on the house and senate floors. Patriot act, landslide passed. Pre-emptive war to a country that didn't even pose a threat to us, landslide passed. Equal rights, DENIED. Death penalty, DENIED. Abortion Rights, UNDER ATTACK.

Really now...this country gets what it deserves. We the people are responsible...I vote for good, honest people who have a vision for this country...who respect: life, justice, the founding principles of this country and international law.

I'm not to blame. The people voting these DINO's into office are the culprits.

[RandomKoolzip]

153. So are we.

We've just chosen a more effective way of doing it.

[Melodybe]

140. Thank you for writing that, Ditto!

I just had a baby not too long ago. Hormones and mother's instinct get the best of me of me these days.

ANYBODY BUT BUSHIT UNITE!

[Old and In the Way]

143. Great post!

We have to take this country back before we can change the national political dialogue and move it to the left. If we don't deal with this fundemental issue first, the rest are just words.

[Old and In the Way]

137. LOL, you'd receive a shitload more encouragement if you

were posting this over at the FreeRepublic.

This country is going down the tubes and this conceivably could be the last shot at free elections in our lifetime....and you want to tell us how morally superior your loser candidate is?

Sorry junior, no sale.

[ErasureAcer]

150. I highly doubt Bush is going to do half the things people expect him to do

and if he does...I'm sure there will be a civil war within this country...people aren't just going to take it while Bush denies them their liberties...

I think some of you are a little too paranoid.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

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[RandomKoolzip]

152. Sometimes the ones who brag the loudest about how clean their

conscience is are the ones who are actually doing the most damage.

Virulient greens (or "Soilent Greens," if you prefer) are usually just the bizarro-world relatives of Fundies. Of course it took me a while to figure that out. (Are you listening, ErasureAcer?)

[jsw_81]

119. I'm convinced that the Greens all failed math

They seem to be living in a fantasy world where they think that the rest of America is like Berkeley or Manhattan. They just don't understand that we live in a country where lefties are a tiny, tiny minority, and they can't seem to grasp the fact that their pathetic Green "party" only helps the conservatives by siphoning votes away from the center/left Democrats. But they'll definitely understand when Roe v. Wade is overturned, gays are thrown back into the cold, dark closet, mandatory school prayer returns, and the oil companies start to ravage the pristine Alaskan wilderness. But by then it will be too late.

[ErasureAcer]

131. I don't think Dems understand math...

or republicans for that matter.

We are on the brink of running out of non-renewable resources on this planet...yet we continue to waste time, energy and money pursuing oil and building nuclear power plants.

The greens are the ones who understand that we can't keep this consumption up forever and want a new way of energy policy.

What does it matter if gays and lesbians have equal rights if there is no energy and dirty water and air around to kill us all?

environment/energy trumps everything else.

Republicans and MOST democrats don't understand that.

[Ediacara]

135. blah blah blah

cornered with the truth, you change the subject!

[Andromeda]

26. Have you cut your wisdom teeth yet?

Didn't think so.:thumbsdown:

[jsw_81]

101. A vote for Dean is a vote for Bush?

Are you nuts?!? Have you been asleep for the past three years? There are TONS of differences between the two on literally dozens of issues including women's rights, gay rights, taxes, education, health care, foreign affairs, gun safety, the environment, church/state separation etc.

If you honestly think that there would be no difference between a Dean administration and a Bush administration, then I shudder to think that you are actually registered to vote. I mean, how clueless can you be? You're a little kid playing with daddy's computer, right? You simply can't be an actual voter. If you are, I'll have nightmares.

[QC]

6. Maybe we could persuade my Aunt Ethel to run.

She has precisely as much chance of winning as Nader does.

[alphafemale]

7. Wow...what a surprise.

*cough*

[grytpype]

8. Thanks for being part of the problem.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

9. Enjoy your 3%!

This means nothing. If as the Greens maintain Nader didn't cost Gore the election then we shouldn't care.

[Robin Hood]

40. 3%? Ha!!! In their dreams.

They'd be lucky to get a half of a percent. When a ship of fools gets abandoned who's left? The original poster, that's who...har, har.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. He says he's waiting for them to respond to a 25 page ransom note

I mean agenda that he sent them to decide.

Anyone got a copy of this? Or is the reason he's holding America hostage to the Bush family a secret?

[Cocoa]

11. I have a better idea

how about voting for Dean?

And who cares what label Nader puts on Dean?

[BeFree]

12. Nader oughta do America a favor

And move to another country.

He's washed up. He's run his useful course. He should cash in his huge corporate investments and retire to someplace where he can get more than 4 percent of the vote.

[Guaranteed]

13. Anyone that actually votes for Nader in this election....

KNOWING who Bush is, and what he does.....:mad:

[glarius]

14. GROW UP!...In other words, you intend to assure Bush's re-election?

Therefore you will vote for Ralph and ensure that pro death penalty, pro war, pro everything wrong for America AND THE REST OF THE WORLD is ensured....Didn't you learn in 2000?....For heaven's sake!!!

[eileen from OH]

15. You know, I have always defended Nader voters

because I thought that, like a lot of people, they thought that Bush couldn't be "that bad".

But this time around is different. We KNOW what 4 more years will get us. Or, correction: We can only GUESS what 4 more years can be like. Most likely it will be worse, much worse.

To say that you would happily support and vote for Nader is your right, of course. But it's also my right to say that you're a bloody fool.

eileen from OH

[Old and In the Way]

147. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

[onebigbadwulf]

16. Anyone who isn't rallying behind the dem nominee to displace * is a...

FUCKING idiot.


Get a clue and understand that Dean will be the greatest thing for the Greens.

He is going to bust apart big-media and perhaps then your mentally retarded goons will get a voice in the media, other than the whiney baby election spoiling one.

[whirlygigspin]

33. this is the same Ralph Nader

that threw Micheal Moore out on his ass for daring to think he could make a movie (Roger & me)and then begged him for an endorsement?

Yeah Ralph, whatever you say...we're all idiots, your our savior...

[onebigbadwulf]

39. was that supposed to make sense?

[Melodybe]

108. Thanks I didn't know about that and I'm a big movie buff.

We are going to show Roger and Me at our public library along with Unprecedented and Manufacturing Consent.

[Gman]

19. Then WTF are you doing here?

Kucinich brought that sorry piece of shit to the debates? Unbelievable.

[bluestateguy]

20. Karl Rove thanks you

My candidate didn't get nominated, so I'm going to pick up my marbles, and play with the other team!!

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[ErasureAcer]

27. I'm not voting for candidates who have horrible platforms...

If it is any consolation...I'd vote for Sharpton if he gets the nod.

Kerry and Braun I would think about a lot...every other Dem candidate I just don't like.

Don't blame me...blame the leaders in the polls right now with horrible platforms.

People wonder why the world is in such chaos...it is because we keep electing crappy politicians...from Clinton/Gore to Bush/Cheney...they both suck.

Gore/Lieberman had to be the worst democratic ticket since I've been alive. On one hand you have someone who thought he created the internet...and on the other hand you have someone who thinks videogames are the root of all evil.

Yeah...what an intelligent bunch.

If Nader wasn't running in 2000...I would have just stayed home.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[bluestateguy]

36. People will die in the Middle East because of your choice

I can't say what I really want to say about Nader voters here due to DU rules, but understand that another 4 years of this president means lives will be lost--American and Arab--in the Middle East. This is no longer about snowmobiles in Yellostone National Park and the Social Security lockbox anymore. It is not 2000 anymore. The stakes are much higher now.

[ErasureAcer]

57. So continuing an illegal war will save lives?

war is like fucking for virginity...it just doesn't work, especially in this case.

The continued occupation of Iraq will be the reason americans and arabs will die in years to come. The continued occupation of Iraq will be the reason education and healthcare, things that matter to all Americans, will not be fully funded. The continued occupation of Iraq will be a prime example to the arab world that America must be stopped from its global domination and will only result in more terrorists wanting to attack American interests-home and abroad.

Yes...another 4 years of a president who supports the Iraqi war will mean more lives are lost.

Thank Goodness for Dennis Kucinich and his vision to get the US out of Iraq, so that we can not only save Iraqi civilian lives and the lives of our troops but also the lives of the millions of people here at home who will be potential targets of terrorists created by the occupation of Iraq, and those who depend on healthcare and education to survive from day to day.

Dennis Kucinich is the answer. No other democratic candidate is.

[Ediacara]

69. Kucinich is either dishonest or stupid (or both)

if he thinks "US out UN in" would work. That would be responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of Iraqis in the ensuing civil war and foreign invasion. You're aware of the fact that Iraw still doesn't have a government or an army to speak of, aren't you?

[bluestateguy]

71. Let's see what you do when you or a loved one is drafted by Bush

The draft is coming if Frat Boy is reinstalled into the White House, and I would just love to see the look on Greens' faces when the draft notice comes in the mail. I will be there to say "but you guys said there was no difference between Deanclarkedwardskerry and Bush".

Be realistic will you? If you think Dennis Kucinich can be elected president of these United States may I interest you in some oceanfront real estate in Nebraska? Howard Dean is risky enough, which is why I support Wesley Clark, of course given the absolute hatred I see from most Greens toward the military I would not expect you to understand that.

Greens are about the most politically tone deaf people I have ever met in my life. Even the most Right wing fascist people I know understand that compromise is necessary to win in politics. They all probably would have preferred Gary Bauer, Steve Forbes or Alan Keyes (if they could deal with that whole black thing) for president, but properly understood that George W. Bush was the most electable candidate in the conservative camp. I assure you that every Neo-Nazi skinhead, Ku Klux Klansman and Christian Reconstructionist will hold their noses and vote for Bush in November, even if he is too liberal for their taste. While we all must draw boundary lines (I would never vote for Zell Miller) we must appreciate that most Americans do not endorse the platform of the Green Party, not even in San Francisco, where voters preferred a Democrat who is very liberal by national standards.

Fight the good fight for Kucinich in the primaries if you wish, but when a nominee is chosen it will be time to be adults and realize that the enemy is George W. Bush, not Howard Dean, Wesley Clark or whoever the nominee is.

[Ediacara]

75. damn right!

[DemBones DemBones]

83. You don't think Dean would sign off on a draft? Just because he

didn't want to be drafted doesn't mean he minds other people being drafted.
(Most people are like that, actually, not just Dean.)

If he actually wins, Dean would inherit Bush's war and be short on troops. Since he's not for ending the occupation, what's he going to do? Draft more troops, I think.

[Ediacara]

90. why does Kucinich (and his supporters) lie about Dean?

Dean is for ending the occupation, he is not for packing our stuff and leaving on 21 Jan 2005. Kucinich's badgering on that point (US out UN in etc) is dishonest. Kucinich's ACTUAL plan would be identical to Dean's ACTUAL plan.

And what makes you think Kucinich wouldn't activate a draft? You think he's that moral? I think he's a liar.

[DemBones DemBones]

139. When did Dean decide he was for ending the occupation? As I

recall, he said we'd have to be there for years. I haven't heard him say he would work to bring the troops home ASAP. You evidently know something about his plans that I don't.

We were talking about Bush and the draft and I said Dean would be likely to activate a draft, too, because of the way Bush has stretched the troops thin and kicked morale into the basment. Now you're assuming I think Kucinich wouldn't activate a draft , which is incorrect. I KNOW he would if he had to, but he'd work to get us out of Iraq, where we're hated, and calm the fires around the world, reducing the need for troops overseas. It's ridiculous that so many reserves and guardsmen are pulling active duty in Iraq.

Also, Kucinich plans to raise military pay and give them the veterans' benefits they're due, because they deserve to be treated well. Fair treatment has the side effect of keeping more personnel in the service since the ones who want to leave are mostly disgusted with the way they're being treated. (Hard as it is for anti-draft people to believe, lots of people like military life.) As long as the volunteer system works, there'd be no need for a draft. There hasn't been a need for a draft since it was ended in the seventies because we've had smarter people in charge.

Perhaps now you'll apologize for reading my mind incorrectly and accusing Kucinich of being a liar.

[Ediacara]

158. Kucinich is a liar

and he would keep troops in Iraq for at least two years, which is as long as Dean said he would.

Did you not watch the debate last night?

And why are you complaining about Dean and a draft if you think Kucinich would activate the draft too?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

164. Nice...

:eyes:

Do I need to ask for proof, or is your 'word' good enough.

TWL

[ErasureAcer]

93. exactly...troop moral is low

only half the troops serving want to re-inlist. The draft is going to come back if we continue to spread ourselves thin with pre-emptive wars and occupation of these lands.

If someone I know is drafted...I'll give them some money to go to Canada. Not too far...I'm in Minnesota...the border is only a couple hundred miles away.

[ErasureAcer]

89. I'm happy to see I have more backbone than a KKK member

thanks...that wants me to continue voting my conscience. :)

[bluestateguy]

99. You'll be disappointed when Kucinich endorses the nominee

Kucinich, who I actually like and respect, knows what it's like to grow up poor. He understands the stakes in this election, as someone who grew up in the type of family that is suffering the most under this Administration. He endorsed Al Gore last time and he will endorse the nominee this time as well. It's one thing to court Nader voters in a primary, which is a rational move, but in a general election Kucinich won't be fooled by all of Nader's bullshit.

[ErasureAcer]

113. Kucinich isn't my messiah...

Just because he supports the eventual nominee doesn't mean I will.

I live my life for my conscience...and no one elses. If Kucinich can vote for a pro-death penalty, pro occupation of Iraq candidate...more power to him.

I personally can not.

[Ediacara]

120. you know that

the actual exit of Dean and Kucinich would be exactly the same right? You know that "President Kucinich" wouldn't order the army out on Jan 21 2005, or even on August 21 2005. With any sane planning Jan 21 2007 is the EARLIEST we could be out without a civil war blood bath.

[ErasureAcer]

123. You fail to realize half of his idea...

"UN IN"

[Ediacara]

126. which is also Dean's idea smart guy!

But will the UN come in on jan 21 2005? No.

Are Dean and Clark's plans actually different in REAL implimentation and action?

No.

[DemBones DemBones]

145. Well, smart guy, I guess Dean got the idea from DK, because it was

not what Dean was saying earlier. He talked about us being there for years. I seem to recall him accusing Kucinich of planning to abandon the Iraqis, too. Guess he hadn't caught on to the plan yet.

I answered your post re: the draft, above. (Your efforts to read my mind weren't very effective.)

[Ediacara]

157. Two to three years is what Dean said

which is technically years, and is in no way any longer than Kucinich ACTUALLY would keep troops there.

Remember the debate last night? Dean had a very well reasoned and thoughtful response, while Kucinich was just yelling "US out, UN in!" with no thought process or sentance tructure other than lying about Dean'd position.

[bluestateguy]

127. You'll be in for a good dose of reality

Let's say Kucinich is elected (and I will certainly vote for him if he is the nominee):

When he begins to make plans for an Inauguration Day withdrawl of the troops from Iraq he'll be told by the military brass that it cannot be done, and I could even see them refusing the orders. Dean, Clark and most of the other candidates have the more adult plan, which resembles the adult coming to responsibly clean up the mess left by the boyish president in Iraq. They will apologize to our allies for the previous Administration's arrogance, get rid of no-bid, sweetheart contracts, welcome other nations into a real coalition where they will be partners with, not subjects of, the US. They will fire that fool Paul Bremer and allow Iraqis to elect their own leaders whom we will serve, not bully.

A president's stance on the death penalty is rather meaningless anyway. There have been only 2 executions in the federal system in the last 40 years. The death penalty is 99% a state issue, and the federal judiciary is stacked with judges who favor the practice, and the Senate would never confirm a judge who pledged to commute every death sentence that came before his or her court. And Vermont does not even have the death penalty, nor has Dean ever pushed for it.

[ErasureAcer]

136. So what you're saying is there is a shadow government....

that controls everything...right.

If Kucinich gives an order...as commander-in-chief I expect it will be done.

[Ediacara]

138. then get ready for 10 million dead Iraqis with the blood on Kucinich's

hands

[FredScuttle]

41. Excuuuuuuuse me? "Clinton/Gore crappy"?

there is just no pleasing you all, is there? 8 years of peace and prosperity were simply dreadful, weren't they? Not like the good times of today, where the richest 3% get all the tax breaks and our government is asleep at the wheel while terrorists are piloting jet airliners into our skyscapers.

do me a favor in 2004....stay home on Election Day. We can do fine without your tortured idiocy.

[Old and In the Way]

154. I guess you can go so far left,

you end up in the Republican Party. Really, this poster is pushing it. I think DK has every right to run and, if selected by the majority of Democrats, I'll be happy and energized to support him. That said, it ain't gonna happen.

And that slam on Gore-Clinton tells me this poster is no friend of the Democratic Party.

He's either hopelessly naive or he's a disrupter....

But I have to thank him for starting a thread that appears to have unified the board in a very positive way....

[morgan2]

21. I sure hope he does

need someone to vote for.

[AntiCoup2K4]

24. Nader's a sellout hypocrite

How much is that fucking piece of unelected shit paying you this time, Ralphie boy? :grr:

[Eloriel]

25. I've got some news for Ralph

If he wants to run as a Green, he'll have to get their nomination first. It's not an automatic given.

[Robin Hood]

28. Ralph nader is a fucking tool.

Tools like him and tools like your self is the reason why Bush is in office. Nice going tool.

Now I realize that the greens are not brethren but rather the enemy, as much of an enemy as the right wing. They do not care about progressing this country. They remind me of children who hold their breath until they get everything they want.

Fucking pathetic.

P.S. Ask Ralph about his stock holdings. I'm sure that he holds stock in some very progressive companies...NOT!!! Is Nader Karl Rove's penis?

[Melodybe]

54. I voted Green in the last election, but I live in MS.

I want a viable third party b/c I think Americans should have more of a choice than just Dem. or Rep. I am also as peace lovin' as it gets...

BUT in 2004 we don't have a choice! It is Democrat or Fascism! Guess what, they don't let you do great things like vote or disagree. They fucking shoot you in the head or put you into a "work camp." Nadar is a POS, that doesn't give a fuck about America if he runs in 2004. I'm sorry you don't agree with any of the candidates (with the exception of Kucinich) but atleast if they get elected, you still have the right to an opinion. If you vote for Nadar instead of the Democrat, and shrub steals another election, the blood is on your hands. I hope you can live with yourself b/c if anything happens to my family because of Bushit, I'm sending my bad karma your way.

[coloradodem2005]

70. While I think that Ralph is a Tool, Greens are not the enemy.

Most prominent Greens do not care much for the idea of another Ralph run. Furthermore, we both share the same goals basically. We Democrats need to be allies with the Greens against Bush.

[Robin Hood]

77. It is not the dems who declared war on the greens.

But I also understand that a spoiler for spoliers sake is no friend of mine, no matter how good his intentions are. look at all the wonderfull stuff the greens good intentions have brought us since 2000. And that mother fucker nader has the nuts to even show his ugly shriveled face in public? The man has no shame, what an ego.

Who else thinks that Ralphs face looks like old balls?

[Melodybe]

100. I am fine with that, look past the Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman's

of the DNC and see that the Democratic party has enough room for all of us. This is when it counts! Last time it didn't matter, we didn't know how bad it could be. Now we know that we have a chance to stop what could be the worst thing ever unleashed on this world, cause the USA has tons of Nukes and do you want Bushes finger on the little red button?

[FredScuttle]

31. This just in.....

Nader calls FDR a "wishy-washy moderate"

No one will ever be good enough for St. Ralph, save for....St. Ralph.

He (and you) can take your petty criticisms and play in your treehouse...the rest of us will be working to ensure Chimpy McCokespoon doesn't enjoy another 4 years.

[Pastiche423]

32. I don't understand

What point are you trying to make? Would it be simply a protest vote? You, of course, have every right to vote for whoever you want to, but it doesn't make much sense.

Btw, your "facts" about Dean are not true.

[janx]

35. OH!

I am so very afraid!

[messiah]

38. Good for you

but liberals like Nader and Kucinich will propaply never win in piss your pants America. People punk out and endorse & donate to the moderate Dean and expect some great movement to came from it but it will never happen (picked the wrong person). Dean wont change shit nor will anyone with his beliefs, false hope wont change that. The current America cannot be saved by a moderate!.

[Robin Hood]

46. And as long as you have everyting dictated by corporations,

do you actually believe that liberals like us won't get rail roaded by these corporations? Helloooo.... I do not believe that in my life time i will see the sort of progressive society that I envision. But by helping the nation take baby steps towards that vision, I am doing what I can.

[messiah]

58. Moderates

against a right wing super power taking small baby steps while the right takes leaps is called losing ground.

[Robin Hood]

68. You really don't seem to understand the history

of where this country came from. It has always been a whacked out conservative bunch that was forced to tolerate people like us because of the constitution. Just because we dropped acid and found the pill in the 60's doesn't mean that everything changed. it is still a conservative country. Hell, the hippies only managed to vote in Carter after their hey-day. And then they voted in Reagan/bush for twelve fucking years.

I agree that Clinton blew it fucking big time by spending most of his time getting blowjobs on one end and taking in in the ass from Republicans on the other. He spent wayyyyy too much time appeasing the Republicans, and I don't like him for that one bit.

But there is a slight difference. Bush has had control of all powers of government for the majority of his term, Clinton did not. Never the less, Clinton blew it.

I understand your frustration, trust me. I feel it everyday. But democracy is like evolution, it crawls along at a snails pace. One step forward, two steps back and so on.

I would love a Kucinich/Sharpton ticket my self, but it ain't gonna happen. Probably not in my life time, though i sure would love to be proven wrong.

[messiah]

87. Looks like we will just have to disagree

[janx]

50. How old are you? Seriously.

How old are you?

[messiah]

61. Why do you ask?

[corporatewhore]

44. liberal first dem second

We tend to forget that social injustice is not limited to the republican party and bush.i not only want to vote bush out but vote ideas in.allot of activists i know tend to forget that under clinton/gore iraq and kosovo were bombed america was being sold out to the highest bidder unioners were getting the shaft and sweatshops were getting a stamp of approval (nafta wto) kyoto was rejected and sanctions for iraq (which acordding to the un killed more than 1.5 people over 50percent were CHILDREN) were kept I found out recently that my dad will be redeployed to iraq 2005 sad truth is he will go back under dean or bush.Dean said he would continue the occupation of iraq and therefore continue El Bushos war for suv justice.How many more americans will die? How many more innocent iraqis will die? How many more al qaeda agents will come feeling justified? Support our troops bring 'em home Support our troops vote kucinich or sharpton the way i figure it i think that they could win nader would not have to run and with this abb attitude they have a good shot at beating bush they are the least like him

[janx]

47. Must be something in the water down there...

...

[bluestateguy]

51. Riddle: What do you call a leader with no followers?

Answer: A guy taking a walk.

In Nader's case that will be about 1% of the voters if Dean is nominated, though that is enough to swing the election to Frat Boy, ensuring that Ralphie continues to benefit from those Bush taxcuts that Howard Dean has pledged to repeal.

[RandomKoolzip]

59. I know I'm not supposed to do this, but...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE use punctuation in your posts. You just made a nonsensical post completely unreadable, thus doubling your chances of making some converts by half.

[aquart]

49. Ain't self-righteousness sweet?

Deliver us to the fascists with your high morals. Make sure to wash your hands.

[ErasureAcer]

72. you are the one who will have to wash your hands...

you're the one supporting candidates who believe it is alright to kill other human being pre-emptively and by continuing this pre-emptive strike!

That my friends goes against the teachings of Jesus Christ does it not? I'm not religious myself, I'm an agnostic...but I truly hope a higher power exists and that people who support this killing and brutality are punished in some after life.

Even not being religious I take things out of religions and incorporate them into my own life and I believe the commandment of "thou shall not kill" is a solid commandment.

Funny...many americans believe in the teachings of Christ but refuse to apply it to real world situations. I can only hope that if this Christ is indeed God and it has some judgement when we die that you people receive the same judgement you're casting on people on earth...that it is alright to kill and make other people live in hell.

And to single me out as delivering you to fascist while I won't be voting for a fascist is just sad on your part and can be taken as a personal attack, against DU rules.

I suppose the 100 million people who don't vote in this country will have to wash their hands as well. Seems you believe you have the infinite wisdom and if people don't do what you say...they are supposed to be punished...

cruel in itself, your god-like demeanor, sets up a pedestal for you to be a controlling dictator/fascist yourself.

When will the hypocrisy stop?

[Robin Hood]

74. Is Dean for pre-emptive strikes?

I didn't think so.

[ErasureAcer]

85. he is for the continuing occupation on a pre-emptive war...

and I don't think he has labeled pre-emptive war out of his (potential) administation...so...I won't be surprised if he does.

Kucinich is absolutely right. If it was wrong to pre-emptively attack Iraq than it is wrong to continue to attack Iraq. Dean is wrong!

End the war now. Save our troops and Iraqi civilians, and let's save some money to put into education and healthcare.

[bluestateguy]

141. Isn't it interesting...

Any look at the exit polls of 2000 will show that Ralph Nader had almost ZERO appeal among voters who were non-white, working class, gay, Jewish or union. Why? Beucase they were grownups and realized the stakes in the election. These were the real people who would be destined to suffer the most in a Bush Administration, and certainly they did. Any progressive "movement" will never succeed without these constituencies. Instead, most of the Nader voters tended to be hoplessly idealistice young people, more often men than women (who can't afford the prospects of Bush controlling their uteruses), and usually from affluent families. They get to feel nice and good about themselves, confident that they think they have done something good for society by voting for a Green. It's all part of some New Age journey of self-discovery, and if Bush wins, hey they'll get a tax cut!

[corporatewhore]

161. As opposed to the stereotype of the rich elite lib dem

Just for the record i am a poor latina.I might be young but i have lived quite a life I grew up in the Rio Grande valley (tip of texas where it meets mexico) I lived in several places homes apts even run down motels.
Perhaps i feel more inclimed to be green because my grandparents were born in mexico.Do you have any idea how NAFTA has destroyed mexico?First come the maquildora factories (internationaly owned factories whose owners set up shop in order to avoid such unpleasentries as workes and environmental rights)which destroy local farm and business not to metion the land they are building on and now quite a few factories are moving south of the mexican border because apparently the workers are getting paid too much.And along come highly militarized trade plans like Plan Puebla de Panama .
Not to mention how free trade is ruining the us.i was highly affected when a levi jeans plant moved to mexico.
It is also because my grandma is an indigenous mexican from the sierra madre region that i sympathize and stand in solidarity with the palestinians for they are going through the same damn thing and for the most part dems dont care about the palestinians.
And it is because i am a latina i dont want dean to win because he is pro death penalty which is a very racist institution. If i was convicted of the same crime as a white person if the crime was big enough i would be more likely go to the chair.
I dont consider myself a green or a dem but a liberal i see dems and repugs both screwing the poor.I will support a cannidate for his or her beliefs not for her party.
And frankly it is with the harshest reality that i dont want dean clark kerry edwards or bush to get in office because under all of them my dad will be redeployed in iraq back in harms way with allot of other americans and for what FUCKING OIL.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

165. "I will support a cannidate for his or her beliefs not for her party."

well said cw


TWL

[corporatewhore]

73. And that would be opposed to the facists

in the dem party who give the finger to the global justice movement unions indigenous populations and maquiladora workers every time they further the neoliberal agenda of "free" trade agrements like wto and nafta or the facist dems who turn a blind eye to the plight of the palestinians or the facist dems who voted for such things as the patriot act homeland security and oily wars without question and when they turn out to be unpopular say dont blame me ididnt know.

[ErasureAcer]

115. you are my new favorite member

welcome to DU :)

[corporatewhore]

129. thanks; )

[uncle ray]

52. ralph must be mentally handicapped

to even think about it.

i guess the dems have * to thank, for whipping me into shape and falling in line with partisan politics. last election i voted for nader, the whole protest vote thing...would not have voted for bush or gore, but you know who i would have rather settled for. now i, and the rest of us, have no choice but to vote for whoever gets * out! i don't care for dean, but it looks like our minds have been made up for us already. i guess Diebold needs to get a jump on programming the voting machines.

[Robin Hood]

62. Welcome to Du uncle ray.

I wasn't that hot for Dean either until last Saturday when he gave a speech that he wrote in SC. It blew my socks off. I was on board then and was securely on board when Al Gore gave his endorsement to Dean.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10881&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1321
Restoring the American Community
Sunday December 7, 2003

Prepared for Delivery by Governor Howard Dean in Columbia, South Carolina


In 1968, Richard Nixon won the White House. He did it in a shameful way -- by dividing Americans against one another, stirring up racial prejudices and bringing out the worst in people.

They called it the "Southern Strategy," and the Republicans have been using it ever since. Nixon pioneered it, and Ronald Reagan perfected it, using phrases like "racial quotas" and "welfare queens" to convince white Americans that minorities were to blame for all of America's problems.

The Republican Party would never win elections if they came out and said their core agenda was about selling America piece by piece to their campaign contributors and making sure that wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of a few.

To distract people from their real agenda, they run elections based on race, dividing us, instead of uniting us.

But these politics do worse than that -- they fracture the very soul of who we are as a country.

It was a different Republican president, who 150 years ago warned, "A house divided cannot stand," and it is now a different Republican party that has won elections for the past 30 years by turning us into a divided nation.

In America, there is nothing black or white about having to live from one paycheck to the next.

Hunger does not care what color we are.

In America, a conversation between parents about taking on more debt might be in English or it might be in Spanish, worrying about making ends meet knows no racial identity.

Black children and white children all get the flu and need the doctor. In both the inner city and in small rural towns, our schools need good teachers.

When I was in medical school in the Bronx, one of my first ER patients was a 13-year-old African American girl who had an unwanted pregnancy. When I moved to Vermont to practice medicine, one of my first ER patients was a 13-year-old white girl who had an unwanted pregnancy.

They were bound by their common human experience.

There are no black concerns or white concerns or Hispanic concerns in America. There are only human concerns.

Every time a politician uses the word "quota," it's because he'd rather not talk about the real reasons that we've lost almost 3 million jobs.

Every time a politician complains about affirmative action in our universities, it's because he'd rather not talk about the real problems with education in America - like the fact that here in South Carolina, only 15% of African Americans have a post-high school degree.

When education is suffering in lower-income areas, it means that we will all pay for more prisons and face more crime in the future.

When families lack health insurance and are forced to go to the emergency room when they need a doctor, medical care becomes more expensive for each of us.

When wealth is concentrated at the very top, when the middle class is shrinking and the gap between rich and poor grows as wide as it has been since the Gilded Age of the 19^th Century, our economy cannot sustain itself.

When wages become stagnant for the majority of Americans, as they have been for the past two decades, we will never feel as though we are getting ahead.

When we have the highest level of personal debt in American history, we are selling off our future, in order to barely keep our heads above water today.

Today, Americans are working harder, for less money, with more debt, and less time to spend with our families and communities.

In the year 2003, in the United States, over 12 million children live in poverty. Nearly 8 million of them are white. And no matter what race they are, too many of them will live in poverty all their lives.

And yesterday, there were 3,000 more children without health care - children of all races. By the end of today, there will 3,000 more. And by the end of tomorrow, there will be 3,000 more on top of that.

America can do better than this.

It's time we had a new politics in America -- a politics that refuses to pander to our lowest prejudices.

Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together, that's when we make true progress in this country.

Jobs, health care, education, democracy, and opportunity. These are the issues that can unite America.

The politics of the 21^st century is going to begin with our common interests.

If the President tries to divide us by race, we're going to talk about health care for every American.

If Karl Rove tries to divide us by gender, we're going to talk about better schools for all of our children.

If large corporate interests try to divide us by income, we're going to talk about better jobs and higher wages for every American.

If any politician tries to win an election by turning America into a battle of us versus them, we're going to respond with a politics that says that we're all in this together - that we want to raise our children in a world in which they are not taught to hate one another, because our children are not born to hate one another.

We're going to talk about justice again in this country, and what an America based on justice should look like -- an America with justice in our tax code, justice in our health care system, and justice in our hearts as well as our laws.

We're going to talk about making higher education available to every young person in every neighborhood and community in America, because over 95% of people with a 4-year degree in this country escape poverty.

We're going to talk about rebuilding rural communities and making sure that rural America can share in the promise and prosperity of the rest of America.

We're going to talk about investing in more small businesses instead of subsidizing huge corporations, because small businesses create 7 out of every 10 jobs in this country and they don't move their jobs overseas -- and they can help revitalize troubled communities. We're going to make it easier for everyone to get a small business loan wherever they live and whatever the color of their skin.

We're going to talk about rebuilding our schools and our roads and our public spaces, empowering people to take pride in their neighborhood and their community again.

We're going to talk about building prosperity that's based on more than spending beyond our means, a prosperity that doesn't force us to choose between working long hours and raising our children, a prosperity that doesn't require a mountain of debt to sustain it, a prosperity that lifts up every one of us and not just those at the very top.

The politics of race and the politics of fear will be answered with the promise of community and a message of hope.

And that's how we're going to win in 2004.

At the Democratic National Convention in 1976, Congresswoman Barbara Jordan asked, "Are we to be one people bound together by common spirit sharing in a common endeavor or will we become a divided nation?"

We are determined to find a way to reach out to Americans of every background, every race, every gender and sexual orientation, and bring them -- as Dr. King said -- to the same table of brotherhood.

We have great work to do in America. It will take years. But it will last for generations. And it begins today, with every one of us here.

Abraham Lincoln said that government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from this earth. But this President has forgotten ordinary people.

That is why it is time for us to join together. Because it is only a movement of citizens of every color, every income level, and every background that can change this country and once again make it live up to the promise of America.

So, today I ask you to not just join this campaign but make it your own. This new era of the United States begins not with me but with you. United together, you can take back your country.

[DemBones DemBones]

76. Nice speech, but Dean would still keep troops in Iraq,

not cut the Pentagon's huge budget,

not give us single payer universal health care,

not repeal the Patriot Act,

not repeal NAFTA and WTO,

not work to end the death penalty,

not leave middle class tax cuts in place,

not lower the Social Security retirement age back to 65.


What good's a nice speech?

[La_Serpiente]

80. Is there any alternative Democrat that you would want besides Dean?

and also Kucinich?

[corporatewhore]

84. SharptonI take him more seriously than

the cannidates who say they are against the war but voted for it say they are against the war but want to continue the occupation

[DemBones DemBones]

104. I'd vote for Kucinich, of course, or Kerry, Edwards, probably Clark,

though I need to know more about his positions.

I'd be more hesitant about voting for Braun or Sharpton, because I'm not sure they're as well-prepared as others for the office. I have even more doubts about Lieberman, not sure I could vote for him.

[Melodybe]

86. However he won't round up people like us and put us in a deathcamp!

Cause if you hadn't noticed that is probably what Bush is going to do! Go study some history and then come back and tell me if you'll vote Nader. Nazis, the Soviet Union, Cuba, Red China, Fascism that is were we are going. If you don't vote for the Democrat, you are part of the problem! That makes you no better than Bushit!

[DemBones DemBones]

148. He probably won't have to round up any of the

Dean supporters -- y'all will likely just self-destruct if Howie loses. (Gallows humor)

Trouble is, I don't want Dean to BE the nominee because I think he will lose and we'll be stuck with Bush. I'm convinced it's a set up. (No, I'm not accusing Howard of being complicit in the plot.)

[DFLforever]

81. It remains to be seen how much influence Nader has left

My relatives and friends who voted for him in 2000 are now contributing to and supporting Dean (and a few, Kucinich)...they really are shook by what's happened to our country since the 2000 election. Doesn't seem to phase Ralph though...maybe he's been mollifed by his Bush tax cut.

edit: typos

[bluestateguy]

102. Most Nader voters I know tell me that they learned their lesson

True, there will still be some holdouts, but in order to appease them the party would have to move so far to the Left as to write off any hope of electing a president. Hopefully the Libertarian votes of small government, non-neoconservatives from Bush will offset the Nader votes.

[JackSwift]

92. I don't recycle anymore

and I don't do anything that might be construed as supportive of Greens. (I know recycling isn't exclusively Green.) But I'm going to enhance all the contradictions as much as I can as long as Green-holes refuse to see the consequences of actions. And no, there is nothing you can do about it.

[DemBones DemBones]

151. What brilliance! Damage the earth to get at Nader! Wow, that

will teach the bastard to run for president without permission.

[cigarstore]

98. I'm with you.

[bitchkitty]

106. Ralph Nader is an idiot,

and so is anyone who would vote for him.

Let's see, ensure a Bush victory because you don't like the death penalty. Yea, that makes sense.

[G_j]

107. I will not scream and yell at you

I will not insult you or call you names. I simply ask that you consider going with whoever the Dem candidate ends up being and then working like hell to hold their feet to the fire. I voted for Nader myself last time around and I view the Death Penalty as a true RW fascist policy.

However, the world doesn't stop after 11/4/04
I intend to be loud and active and keep the pressure on high. But we really can't survive four more years of Bush. Think of how many more deaths that would mean.

Still, I believe in a Democracy and you have the absolute right to vote for whoever you wish.

[corporatewhore]

111. think of how many deaths

it would mean if the occupation continued. Dean wont support the troops and bring them home.

[cigarstore]

118. So true

We must end this now

[G_j]

130. I agree

and I'd be protesting and raising hell!!

on edit: btw, I'm a DK supporter all the way.

[ErasureAcer]

117. thank you for respecting my right to vote...

:)

[trumad]

159. Let them vote for whoever he/she to wants to vote for

but understand this.... If he/she get's on DU during the election touting their non-Democrat canidate and dissing the Democrats canidate for President, they will be banned from DU. So let them have their fun while they can.

[incapsulated]

160. OK, can I ask you a question?

I don't know what state you live in. But if the Democratic nominee and Bush are in a close race come election time in your state, will you still vote for Nader?

Because it is one thing to say you have a right to vote for whomever you choose, and it is quite another to deny the consequences of that vote. I think you understand that Nader will not get enough votes to become President. You are voting to support what he stands for, to send the Democrats a message, whatever. You are hoping for some sort of result for your action, no? Will you then deny the result if it helps to ensure a Bush win in your State?

You see, the thing that bothers me about Nader voters is their refusal to take responsibility for their actions. You can say it isn't your intent to help Bush, but if you know that is the result of your actions, then at least admit this. I accept that Gore ran a less than stellar campaign and the that the race should never have been as close as it was. That is his fault. But Nader voters could have saved us from Bush in Florida, not for Gore, for the country. You could have been saviours in this. Instead they deny any responsibilty for the consequence of their choices, and that I cannot accept.

edit: Post Number 400! :party:

[morgan2]

163. In 2000

I know I wouldn't have voted for either Gore or Bush. The only reason I voted was because Nader was there. Gore and Bush were not and are not worth the 5 minute drive down to the local high school to vote.

[corporatewhore]

166. and by your logic gore should be held accountable

for his actions or inactions and should take responsebility of not taking a better stand on the issues because he should have taken those uppity people who 'gasp' dared to vote their principles ideals and hopes instead of their fears in to account.but then again I live in texas so it really doesnt matter who i vote for in the gen election
I wouldnt try to send some dems a message because they dont bother to listen.I dont see myself as a green or a dem but as a liberal.If there was a republican running who was not for institutions like the deathpenalty for workers rights willing to pull outta nafta/wto respect our environment and would bring our troops home i would vote forthat person but seeing how i have a better chance of sprouting wings ...

[incapsulated]

168. Uh, yes, and I said as much in my post n/t