My God- you HAVE to see this.

[Guaranteed]

I can't believe this video:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm

Who the HELL are this soldier's parents??

[La_Serpiente]

1. When was the video taken?

[Guaranteed]

3. I really don't know...

Maybe if you look at the headlines at the bottom, you could tell. It should be fairly recent.

[Guaranteed]

6. It looks like Oct. 25th

If you look at the headline right at the end, the Jimmy Kimmel one, it coincides with this:

http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/41841.htm

[Coldgothicwoman]

2. WTF?!?

That was disgusting!

If it was done to one of us, our nation would be raising hell!!!

[onebigbadwulf]

4. Thats exactly where I want my tax dollars going...

oh wait no, I'm not SATAN.

[corporatewhore]

5. my dad was in favor

of bush's shoot em up mentality untill he went to iraq and saw that bombs dont discriminate. I talked with a gulf war vet and she said it wasnt until she went back to iraq with vets for peace she realised that she had been conditioned to hate the iraqis as a people and she was disgusted with herself. I also read a story a few months ago about a solider who was staying in a catholic church in a nearby town as sanctuary to avoid being sent to iraq .he said when he found out he was going his friends who werent going told him to kill a raghead for him.that is fucking sick

[Must_B_Free]

10. My friend was in the navy

he said they all had "kill a commie for mommie" tshirts.

He said the same thing about hat conditioning mentality.

[Guaranteed]

7. Explain THAT one, Freeper lurkers.

Assholes!

[veganwitch]

58. does anyone have the script?

i dont have speakers at my computer at work.

[Guaranteed]

61. Sure

Narrator:
"Wounded, another Iraqi writhes on the ground. The Marines kill him."

<gunfire>

Narrator:
"And cheer."

<whoops, hollers, yelling as the camera pans to the troops>

Soldier:

"Man, these guys are dead now, you know? But, it was, it was a good feeling....Afterwards, you were like, 'Oh HELL yeah, that was AWESOME. Let's, let's do it again.'"

[AnnitaR]

8. I'm going to throw up now!

I am so disgusted and appalled!

[burning bush]

9. That was very disturbing...

I'm ashamed....I am at a complete lack of adequate response to this.

[batesboys]

11. re: Who the HELL are this soldier's parents??

Republicans

[lostnfound]

40. Don't be so sure. This soldier may have been a normal kid until Iraq

The natural reactions of men who kill in combat often includes a sense of erotic excitement, according to reports I've heard.

This video is very very sad, but part of the sadness is that this young man's parents may very well have spent 18 years doing their very best to raise him to be a decent, caring person; but a month or so in the hellhole of fear, killing, exploded bodies and numbness tears it all down to zero and replaces it with this.

The rules and values he has been taught didn't work in a firefight one day, so he threw them away.

I'm sure his parents will vomit when they see this video.

[VOX]

12. WTF? *Cheering* while killing a near-dead Iraqi?

Where's the honor in that? Where is the honor in any of this madness?

Quite frankly, this is *insane*, and it makes me furious in so many ways.

[Guaranteed]

14. Yup...it's beyond reason.

It's just ignorance and hate. FUBAR.

[Myra]

23. FUBAR FUBABelief FUB1984

"George Orwell's 1984 is the expression of a mood, and it is a warning. The mood it expresses is that of near despair about the future of man, and the warning is that unless the course of history changes, men all over the world will lose their most human qualities, will become soulless automatons, and will not even be aware of it."

Afterward to "1984" - Erich Fromm

[imax2268]

13. is this what we have become...

that was disturbing as hell...and the soldier says.."AWESOME"...

[Scott Lee]

15. Do you have any more doubt as to who the REAL evil empire is?

Good.

[Tinoire]

16. Hell yeah that was awesome, let's do it again

... comes as no surprise to me as a retired vet. For years, those boys are dehumanized and when they train in the Continental US, it's to cries of "get that sand-nigger". What did we expect?

And I ask all of you to go spend a week in I/P and then ask yourselves if there can ever be a kind, gentle occupation.

These kids need to come home NOW!

And on the flip side, one of my favorite young soldiers is back from Iraq. He sits around the house all day with that thousand yard stare, won't talk to his wife, won't re-bond with his kids; he doesn't even want his kids to come near him because when he was in Iraq he was ordered to fire at a house with kids in it. He knew there were kids because the mother came to the window clutching 2 kids in her arms. He couldn't fire... was ordered 2-3 times and threatened so he... fired... and to this day all he sees are those kids hurtling through the air to/from their death.

There must be no occupation. There's no such thing as a gentle, kind occupation. An occupation is to oppress and oppressed people resist. When oppressed people resiste, the occupying powers mow them down.

US OUT! UN IN!

[imax2268]

17. Well said...

My thing is...and I admit I don't know the whole story as to who the man was and what the circumstances were...but is this murder...?
Couldn't they go and scoop the Iraqi off the ground and arrest him if he was a combatant...?

or am I wrong on that fact...?

[Guaranteed]

19. It's murder, in the moral sense, if

the guy wasn't a threat to them anymore.

However, the problem is that, in war, it's often difficult to discern what is a threat and what isn't, so people tend regress into the "shoot first, ask questions later" philosophy.

What was really sick about that video, though, was the enthusiasm these guys had for killing people. It was like they didn't even see them as people anymore.

[leesa]

59. No doubt it's murder. And remember, we are NOT at war.

Every single person killed there is a murder because we illegally invaded a disarmed nation for no reason.

[Tinoire]

128. I agree with BullGooseLoony

It's hard for us to tell especially with such a short clip. My problem with this video is two-fold... Assuming he was a threat, they probably could have gone to scoop him up as you say after wounding him but what would they have done with him? I'm not in that unit! I don't know what arrangements they have for prisoners- if the prisoner-of-ear camps are over-flowing or not, where the nearest one is, if there are any arrangements to transport people there... I don't know if ideas were put in their head by their Officer and NCOs, I don't know if someone winked at them and told them that is war, to go for it so they went at it and with gusto... It's the gusto that really disturbs me, the inability to recognize that that was a human being on the ground with a family, with children(?), with an entire life in front of him whose sole crime was to be born in a country possessing a resource we think we're better qualified to 'handle'.

As more videos of cold-blooded murder come out, the propaganda will start that the soldiers are afraid that the Iraqis are strapping bombs to their bodies (like the Palestinians) and then all will be excused- even the laughter that shocks decent people like us so much.

I consider this murder but then again, I consider war murder because we have no right to destroy what we can't create. Your typical soldier or young officer (oh and yes they are very much brain-washed) would tell you it was self-defense because that guy might have had a grenade in his pocket and that in war it's either kill or be killed (yeah that's one of the favorites)... Like the little Vietnamese children...

I fear the day little Iraqi children throw stones at our tanks and bull-dozers. Seriously, go down to I/P... You will hear such things as "those aren't stones, they're rocks, boulders", "have you seen the damage a stone can do" "they use sling-shots making the stone as deadly as a bullet". This from people who aren't even in the war/occupation zone... Imagine what the soldiers are saying...

I would like to think that the soldiers I trained would have shot the man only IF THEY WERE SURE he was a threat and 'scooped him up' and off to a prisoner-of-war camp. Problem is, for me, this isn't really war. There's no other army... this is cold-blooded murder of people not wanting to be subjected to an occupation so it's "ok" to shoot anyone resisting. A conquered people is supposed to be docile and thankful they weren't all destroyed right?

Peace

[JackSwift]

18. That was murder, pure and simple

it is illegal to shoot a soldier too wounded to fight anymore and too wounded to surrender. Does this guy think that he can ever travel abroad? He can be tried anywhere in the world for it. And no statute of limitations.

[kvnf]

20. sad business

This is sick $hit. But that's what war is. And that's why I was out there protesting this entire f******* thing from the begining, back when we were still trying to make the case at the UN. I was in the streets marching with fellow students, shouting "Books not Bombs".

Like Jimmy Carter said on Hardball tonight, it didn't matter what the hell Saddam did--he was, in fact, complying with res.1441--Bush wanted war no matter what. And he got it because almost the entire flipping congress went along with him. I felt seriously betrayed at that point, because the anti-war movement was the first thing I was ever politcally involved in.

Now my best friend from high school is about to get shipped to Iraq. He's in the Army, a forward observer. I spoke with him on the phone last week...he sounded freaked out but tried to sound tough. He told me he would shoot anything that came towards him. He said he'll be there for a year and that his only hope is that the situation isn't downgraded to "peacetime operations" because then they don't get paid as much.

This war and this occupation are terrible, terrible, terrible and they should never have happened.

[Guaranteed]

22. My feelings exactly.

Welcome to DU! :)

[Nomad559]

21. Disgusting

This Is disgusting ... this Is why everyone hates the United States.
Killing wounded people, and then cheering about It.
What the hell Is so awesome about killing someone that Is wounded and unarmed?

[aquart]

31. Are these the men who come home and shoot their wives?

And then themselves?

[Paul Hood]

24. If CNN is a news channel, why

didn't we see this on television. Their logo is prominently displayed on this video. Are Americans too sensitive to see their tax dollars at work?

[onebigbadwulf]

25. Hold the boat, that could have easily been faked

Look at the ticker. It says next wednesday is Feb 25th.

We werent even killing Iraqis until March, right?

Something's fishy.

[Guaranteed]

26. I think it was real because

the Feb 25th reference was to "Next Ash Wednesday," which actually would be the 25th (2004- I checked). Also, look at my post above referring to Oct 25th.

It looks like it was a couple of months ago...it has been edited, which makes it slightly fishy, but the soldiers were clearly cheering after the guy was killed, and the lone soldier interviewed seemed to be really referring to what happened....

I dunno...it's pretty disgusting.

[imax2268]

27. Anyone here...

know where to find the Rules of Engagement...?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. I don't think we pay much attention to ANY rules of engagement.

[burning bush]

29. Sorry, you have the wrong year ...

Look at the ticker. It says next wednesday is Feb 25th.

Feb 25th 2003 was a Tuesday.

The ticker is referring to the next Ash Wednesday, which is Feb 25th, 2004.

I wish that this were a hoax, because I have trouble dealing with the reality of it all :scared:

[spooky3]

43. we don't know what incidents occurred before this shooting took place.

[Blue_Chill]

62. Exactly, I'd love to see what the wounded Iraqi did

to result in his being wounded in the first place. Maybe nothing.....but we can't tell from watching this.

[prolesunited]

65. What he did or did not do is irrelevant?

He was clearly wounded and subdued. Why wasn't he just taken prisoner? What was on that video tape was an execution.

We condemned Saddam for killing his own people. How can we hold the moral high ground here if the soldiers behave in this manner and the brass turns a blind eye to it?

[Blue_Chill]

80. Did he still have a gun?

If he did I'd have shot him too. Sorry but in a soldiers position you play it safe, pain does not mean you won't shoot a guy that suddenly comes close to you and opens himself up as a target. It's one thing for a wounded man to shoot at heavily armed troops behind cover it's another to shoot a guy who is at point blank range.

I'm not saying what these people did was right, hell any killing that results in celebration is most certainly not right. But I am also not going to pretend the rules that barely even apply to our police officers at home, are going to be applicable in a war zone.

This is war people, if you don't like don't let it happen. Remember that in 04.

[Spentastic]

67. If it makes you feel better

I saw a longer tape than this aired on Channel 4 News U.K a couple of weeks ago.

The U.S soldiers (from memory 101st rings a bell) were involved in a firefight with a number of insurgents. They had been taking fire.

This Iraqi had been immobilised due to injuries recieved in the firefight and was writhing on the ground.

U.S troops then executed him and cheered.

[prolesunited]

70. Well, there you go

he just got what was coming to him. /sarcasm off

[Spentastic]

72. Yeah

The only thing missing was a coup de grace with a pistol to the temple.

Soldiers today eh :eyes:

[Blue_Chill]

82. The guy was moving

If you can move you can shoot. And in war you don't shoot at anyone and expect mercy. Surrender is done without engagement, you don't try your luck fail and then decide oh well fuck it I give up.

The celebration is far more disturbing to me then the killing. These men are going to be problem in civilian life. This stuff doesn't come with a off switch.

[Guaranteed]

84. Dude was HARDLY moving.

Raising up three inches off the ground isn't "moving." He looked half-dead, to me. AND his back was to them. He was no threat.

[Blue_Chill]

87. But he WAS moving right?

So would you have the balls to get out from behind cover and try to take a possibly armed man that MINUTES AGO TRIED TO KILL YOU into custody?

[Guaranteed]

91. Cops do it all the time.

Yes, it's possible.

Did he look like a threat to you? Honestly, now...

How about this: Did those soldiers look/sound SCARED? No- they sounded pretty fricking jubilant. If he was a threat, shouldn't they have been scared, not cheering?

[Blue_Chill]

97. He wasn't a threat

Because they stayed behind a wall. And cops don't do that all the time at all, stop watching TV and wake up. If you even twitch american cops make swiss cheese out of you.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. These are the sorts of people

who will be coming back home, conditioned to the easy taking of human life. I wonder what they will be doing when they get back to this country. We may be seeing the next Timothy McVeigh or John Allen Muhammed.

[Guaranteed]

30. Yup

Welcome to DU! :)

[0rganism]

32. To the soldiers, the Iraqi was nothing more than an easy target

Someday, if he is lucky, the GI on the video will be back in the USA, wondering what the hell happened to his veterans' benefits. He will learn that to the republicans who sent him to war, they were nothing more than easy targets.

[Spentastic]

33. So finally it happens

This video was broadcast of British television a couple of weeks ago.

These "kids" who only joined "to get an education" are quite happily using a dying Iraqi as target practice. When they kill him, they cheer and congratulate each other as though their favourite basketball team had just scored 3 points.

Support the troops.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. It's been happening since Day One of this illegal war...

...it just happens that this incident actually made it into the media.

I have a retired Marine brother-in-law that tells me that during Desert Storm Iraqi troops trying to surrender would be routinely shot. No wonder so many of the other Iraqi POWs looked scared to death when they surrendered.

Doesn't look any different from what the Israelis are doing to unarmed Palestinians, does it?

[Spentastic]

39. Yeah I know

But try telling people that their sons and daughters are brutalising a country and you'll be met with utter disdain.

The Military enables / encourages people to act like this. Yet service is afforded an honorable status, outranking those that serve their communities in peace.

It's bollocks

[Clark Can WIN]

107. This is the result of conditioning not "enabling"

Extended and direct conflict results in a degredation of humanity on both sides of any conflict. These were in all likelyhood decent people once. It is innevitable. And in this case, it never should have happened.

Service is honorable. It is the govornments ABUSE of service that is morally repugnant.

[morgan2]

34. damn i wanna sign up..

if I could do that everyday, I'd finally be happy.

[Kinkistyle]

35. Did they collect them ears?

Gotta collect them ears. Put em on a string, wear it around your neck. They say you gain a part of the dead's spirit. Gotta get more of them ears... need more to stay alive out there...

[Obamarama]

38. "...it's like those guys are dead now....it was a good feeling..."

IT WAS A GOOD FEELING?

And did you catch the guy in the background shouting "Get em, boys!"
(you can hear it at the point the camera pans right to the soldiers).

Consider the following two quotes:

It was Hitler who once said: "A violently active, dominating, intrepid, brutal youth - that is what I am after."

Keating once wrote: "You do not destroy an idea by killing people; you replace it with a better one."

The American sheeple are being told we're in Iraq to do the latter and the Asses of Evil (Bush, Rumsfeld & Ashcroft) are venerated when, in fact, what is in play by our sham of an adimistration is the former. And NOBODY SEEMS TO CARE.

Meanwhile, our esteemed Democratic Party can't stop infighting and pull it's head out of its ass fast enough to pull itself together and
figure out a definitive strategy on how to get the noxious shrub out of the White House.

May God truly help us....

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. That was disgusting. n/t

[izzie]

42. Well that is their job and they join with free will

I hate to sound bad on this but we got what we asked for a professional service and so the 'war lovers' join and other are taught to kill and learn to like it. We need a citizen army back to be a good country as leaders like to use an army that likes to kill for its oun means. An army controled by the voters, as the founders wanted, are more careful of their and other peoples lifes.I wanted the draft to be gone but it has turned out bad and I think I was wrong on this.

[OhioStateProgressive]

44. i will immigrate to mexico if they reinstall the draft(nt)

[matcom]

45. i warned you all of this (but was called anti-troop)

some time back. got into a flame fest here in GD because i KNEW this was going on.

was called anti-troop, etc.. etc.. etc..

I AM A VETERAN

i know DAMN WELL what is going on over there. this is a 10 second video and there may as well be 1000 of these shown on CNN

i KNOW what is happening:

"sand-niggers"
"camel-monkeys"
"kill them all"
"don't let them grow up to be Saddam"
"etc..."

this is the mentality folks. i had it ingrained in me by the Army. it is sick. it is racist. it is un-human. it is reality.

that shit is what you are "taught" in the combat forces. go ahead and call me anti troop if you will.......BRING THEM HOME NOW!

fuck

[moondust]

47. What matcom says.

Military desensitization/dehumanization/robotization starts on day 1 of basic training.

[matcom]

48. go one better

it starts at the MEPS Station

[TreasonousBastard]

50. You, Tinoire...

and a few others know what's going on.

We vets know how they dehumanize the enemy and build that system of unit cohesion. We know how there are two versions of "rules of combat"-- one on the books, and one in the minds of the field commanders.

I sat Viet Nam out in Germany, so don't have any direct combat experience, but I saw plenty of others go, and saw the ones who came back for a few months before recycling home. You know the changes they went through.

And I've had plenty of WWII and Korean vets tell me how easy it was to get used to the killing.

War is hell under any circumstances, but I think that the soldiers who are in a senseless war like Viet Nam, or this one, with no underlying ethical basis (see: "Just War Doctrines") get an even bigger dose of desensitization.

Then, there's that other problem. Returning soldiers after VE day were welcomed as heroes, returnees after Viet Nam were "welcomed" as baby-killers, and returnees after Gulf I were hardly noticed. And those over there now?

We're not doing enough for their physical wounds, and completely ignoring the psychic ones.

After sending them to the killing fields, what do we do with them when they return?

[Tansy_Gold]

114. In those serene days before the war. . . .

. . . .(sarcasm off now). . . .there were those of us on DU who argued with certain staunch defenders of the military that it was perfectly possible for decent folks to go to war and be transformed, by training and by the experience itself, into something less than decent. Some of us who dared to say that were called traitors, un-American, and worse.

Fear and isolation -- two commodities in abundant supply for the US troops in Iraq right now -- make people do desperate things.

I had heard of this video but couldn't watch it, knowing what it contained. But maybe it, or selected still captures from it, needs to be widely distributed, just like Eddie Adams' photo from Saigon showing the execution of a suspected Viet cong,



or the self-immolation of a Buddhist monk



or the photo of Kim Phuc, the Vietnamese girl burned in a napalm attack



so people will know war is not all glory and flags and some of the missions accomplished should never have been attempted in the first place.


Tansy Gold, who STILL doesn't know how to put images into her DU posts but figures someone with some savvy will.

[TreasonousBastard]

117. iirc, Eddie Adams' pic...

was on the cover of Life, and was largely responsible for the turning point over Viet Nam. It shocked, and brought the war into your comfortable living room.

The others helped.

It's no surprise that TPTB don't want images of war made public.

As to the other-- war changes you. It may be a subtle change, and it may not necessarily be a bad change, but war always changes you. I've seen too many come back from it to dare think otherwise.

[Tansy_Gold]

118. Life changes you, for good or bad.

War, as an extreme form of "life," tends to change in extreme ways.

(btw, I had no idea just posting the urls would put the pix in my post! sheesh, learn sumthin' everyday! hope it didn't eat up a bunch of bandwidth or sumthin' . . . .)

I think one of the nastier legacies of the Raygun/Poppy administrations was the notion that war can be clean, bloodless, sanitary. Grenada, Panama, GW1 -- we didn't get extensive media coverage and no pictures to disrupt our suppertime conversations. It was all over and done with, out of sight, out of mind.

Somalia may have changed that a bit, and of course how convenient that it happened under Clinton. But that was more or less a single "incident," not a whole campaign. The whole Somalia thing was distanced. Bosnia/Kosovo was a little more publicized, but because US losses were so low, there was no outrage built up. I think there was a lot of sympathy established for the victims, but they weren't "us" and so there was a convenient and comfortable disconnect.

The Iraq invasion wasn't supposed to be this bloody, and it wasn't supposed to be this expensive in US lives, morale, or even self-image. The pre-war discussions here on DU, I think, illustrated that, and even some of the current debates. Are we supporting the troops if we criticize them or suggest they are doing anything wrong? Or do we have an obligation, as part of that support, to point out where they are doing wrong and may be placing themselves -- and us -- in added danger as a result? The war has changed our lives, not only for those who are in direct or once-removed contact with the actual theatre, but even those who are more distantly connected. It has changed both the nature and the form of the debate, and in some cases moved some of the players from one side of a fragile dividing line to the other.

And it has left some, I'm sure, trying to walk on that slender filament.

As in all wars, and indeed in all human endeavors, Something Will Happen that will turn the tide. There will be a massive assault on US troops in Baghdad like the Beirut bombing, and the troops will all be brought home. Or there will be a political change. Or someone will die. Or Something. It will change. one way or another, it will change. For better or worse.

What bothers me, and has spurred me to keep this thread alive, is that there HAS been media coverage of this hideous incident. Someone taped it, someone distributed that tape. And whether or not the incident is "real" or "fake" is, I think, almost less important than the fact that it is easily accepted as possible, probable, justifiable, and/or real, accepted enough that we can discuss and debate its implications under the reasonable assumption that it's real. This is very different from being able to dismiss it as utterly without potential veracity. We accept that it COULD be real.

So maybe this particular visual account won't make it to the equivalent of the front page of LIFE, but maybe another clip will air on CNN or even on Faux, and then the tide will turn.

and I'm not betting on which way that tide will turn, only that it will. Eventually.

Peace, eventually,

Tansy Gold

[moondust]

46. Probably a war crime.

Probably protected by the Geneva Convention.

One of Bush's boys.

[Snellius]

49. They're turning American soldiers into Gestapo

Using U.S. fighting soldiers as a secret police force of domestic repression -- holding innocent family members has hostage, forced detention and summary execution without trial or humanitarian rights, turning whole villages into ghettos -- corrupts everything America stand for.

[creativelcro]

51. it's fake

[Spentastic]

52. Proof please

Well?

[Cooley Hurd]

54. How so?

It looks real to me, and the Feb 25th thing was debunked. How is it a fake?

[prolesunited]

60. What part of it is fake?

The Iraqi getting killed? The guys cheering? The soldier at the end?

If you haven't read this article, please do. It really explains what is happening to our men and women there.

Hold On to Your Humanity: An Open Letter to GIs in Iraq
by Stan Goff

<excerpt>
I changed over there in Vietnam and they were not nice changes either. I started getting pulled into something--something that craved other peole's pain. Just to make sure I wasn't regarded as a "fucking missionary" or a possible rat, I learned how to fit myself into that group that was untouchable, people too crazy to fuck with, people who desired the rush of omnipotence that comes with setting someone's house on fire just for the pure hell of it, or who could kill anyone, man, woman, or child, with hardly a second thought. People who had the power of life and death--because they could.

The anger helps. It's easy to hate everyone you can't trust because of your circumstances, and to rage about what you've seen, what has happened to you, and what you have done and can't take back.

It was all an act for me, a cover-up for deeper fears I couldn't name, and the reason I know that is that we had to dehumanize our victims before we did the things we did. We knew deep down that what we were doing was wrong. So they became dinks or gooks, just like Iraqis are now being transformed into ragheads or hajjis. People had to be reduced to "niggers" here before they could be lynched. No difference. We convinced ourselves we had to kill them to survive, even when that wasn't true, but something inside us told us that so long as they were human beings, with the same intrinsic value we had as human beings, we were not allowed to burn their homes and barns, kill their animals, and sometimes even kill them. So we used these words, these new names, to reduce them, to strip them of their essential humanity, and then we could do things like adjust artillery fire onto the cries of a baby.

Until that baby was silenced, though, and here's the important thing to understand, that baby never surrendered her humanity. I did. We did. That's the thing you might not get until it's too late. When you take away the humantiy of another, you kill your own humanity. You attack your own soul because it is standing in the way.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Hold_on_to_your_111503.htm

[rman]

64. convince me. try harder. n/t

-

[grannylib]

53. So did this actually air on CNN?? Was it pulled? Need more info

[creativelcro]

55. Exactly

[Spentastic]

56. This was aired

On British TV within the past two weeks.

[KoKo]

57. I couldn't view it (sorry) but does anyone know the source and the

organization or site which has it up? Could you give a little more info on how it was obtained?

I don't have the stomach to watch, because I protested against this Invasion, and I'm having enough problems with what's going on there.

[Sticky]

94. Not Fake: TRANSCRIPT here

It was a Candy Crowley report for CNN

The topic was something like ' how to kill the so-called enemy and still live with yourself'. Very chilling piece.....she interviewed a Viet Nam vet who has never gotten over it.

Transcript here
http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0310/26/cp.00.html

[janx]

63. I can't hear anything. Does anyone know why?

?

No audio.

[Blue_Chill]

66. What did you folks think war was like?

In war your enemy is dehumanized so that your mind can cope with what you must do. This video is the result of this mind game.

This is war, it's not something special you are seeing. When you send humans on a mission to kill don't pretend to be shocked when you turn them into cold blooded killers.

[prolesunited]

68. Is that OK with you

that we have just turned thousands of our people into cold-blooded killers?

And when they get home and can't decide who the enemy is — like Muhammad and McVeigh — is it best that we execute the "defective machine" we created.

This was NOT a just war and did not have to happen, so spare me your acceptance.

[Guaranteed]

69. I think this WAS what we imagined

and a main reason why we were against the war in the first place.

But, I also think that we were hoping that, somehow, we had a kinder, gentler machine-gun hand...our military tries very hard to convince us that we're civilized, even in war. This kind of thing is just very eye-opening. More lies. A lie for every dead body, plus some, it seems.


Pardon the Neil Young.

[Spentastic]

71. You're right

War crimes happen in war.

Are there rules about executing wounded combatants?

[mgrier6953]

112. I agree with you Blue

I would also like to say that soldiers can get the feeling of euphoria when they kill someone but because of that one moment in time they get to spend the rest of thier lives dealing with it. The proof to that is at any local VA hospital.

[Mattforclark]

73. Did he have a gun?

Did the Iraqi have a gun? Had he just shot at the soldiers? If he was getting up and had a gun, I would be inclined to shoot him too in their place. I don't see a gun though. Just to the right and bottom of him it looks like there is something, but I can't tell if it is a gun.

That said, the Marine's comments afterwards are quite disturbing.

[Spentastic]

74. There was gun

But that Iraqi was prone for many seconds and was incapable of using it.

They finished him for fun.

Those guys will be back in the U.S one day.

Lucky you.

[Mattforclark]

76. Right before they shoot him

you can see a white part under his arms. It looks like he is in a crawling position.

I don't know if that makes one incapable of using a gun or not.

War is a terrible thing.

:(

[Spentastic]

78. I'm afraid I don't concur

The soldiers in question had the enemy in full view. He was not drawing down on them. They just decided to kill him. You can probably justify this if you are of a military persuasion. I'm a civvy. Looks like cold blooded execution to me.

They then celebrated his death in a truly frightening abhorrent manner.

[Mattforclark]

86. I am a civvy too

But I am not sure. It is questionable, but I do not feel able to pass judgement. On the one hand, you don't want to wait until the person is drawing down on them, because then he has a much higher chance of killing you. Self preservation is a powerful thing. On the other hand...

"They then celebrated his death in a truly frightening abhorrent manner."

On that part you are 100% right.

[Blue_Chill]

79. incapable of using it?

I wonder if you would have been so sure about that had you been there. I wish people would think in terms of being in that situation before passing judgement. This video is obviously cut to leave out how this situation began leaving only this ending out of any context.

[Spentastic]

81. Oh yeah

You mean the cheerleading bit was in the context of a 9th inning home run by their fellow soldiers and not joy at killing a guy lying on the ground?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Chill]

89. I have news for you

In war killing = victory. You don't win wars with words you know. That is why war must be avoided, not entered into and then bitched about.

[Spentastic]

93. Oh yeah

That's why I was protesting and stuff.

I'll now bitch about U.S troops killing people and enjoying it.

If the Arab world sees this I would have thought they'd start booking flights on more airliners.

[Blue_Chill]

99. Protesting and stuff, well hooray for you!

I too protested, and then I realised what was actually going on. We on the left have been busy little bees in showing our anger while the right has been trying to shape a message to reach the know nothing idiots that vote just to say they did.

Guess who's tactic is winning?

I'm sick of it, we sit around bitching about american troops and losing more and more votes. You people want to make a difference? THINK ABOUT WHAT MATTERS TO THE SHEEPLE BECAUSE YOUR CONSTANT DISPLAYS OF OUTRAGE ARE SCREWING US.

[Guaranteed]

103. Wrong.

Now, WE'RE winning.

Before, when we rolled over like your precious "sheeple," we were big-time losers. Now, we're on the cutting edge. We're the leaders, while Bush is screwing the country.

[Sterling]

123. We on the left?

You hate the left who are you kidding?

[Kool Kitty]

95. Yes, there's war.

And war is horrible and ugly and bloody and savage. I'm not dumb, I know terrible things can happen. I would hope that our soldiers would be a little more honorable. I don't think that it's too much to ask.

[Guaranteed]

88. What, exactly, are you trying to convince us of?

YEAH, we KNOW it's as messed up as you could possibly imagine, and more.

Are you trying to excuse it somehow?

[Blue_Chill]

90. Excuse it? Not at all.

But I'm sick of people bitching about soldiers. You don't like war then avoid it, don't demand war crimes be charged on everyone. It sickens me to see people pass judgement on the actions of men in a video that minutes ago were shot at. What especially sickens me is that you see no such outrage when somthing like this happens to a american.

[Guaranteed]

98. ....

"You don't like war then avoid it, don't demand war crimes be charged on everyone."

YEAH, we TRIED that one. THIS is WHY we tried.

"It sickens me to see people pass judgement on the actions of men in a video that minutes ago were shot at."

Seems to me that our soldiers are the ones passing judgment- they're the ones killing people. Judge, jury, and executioner, they are. And if they judge, then we judge. We said we were against it from the beginning, that they shouldn't be there. We told them not to go. They went anyway. Now we get to judge.

And have you even tried stepping into that Iraqi guy's shoes for a minute? After all, he IS defending his country. It's not like WE'RE doing that.

"What especially sickens me is that you see no such outrage when somthing like this happens to a american."

That's just a lie. I'm routinely outraged by injustices committed here on our own soil. And so are all the other DUers.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Martin Luther King Jr.

[Blue_Chill]

101. .....

YEAH, we TRIED that one. THIS is WHY we tried.

Did we? Who discussed the impact of our outrage on the voters, how the media could spin it? Who did the damage control? Who when it became obvious that the shrill anti-soldier voice of the few was getting press took seriously the need to shut them up or wash our hadns of them?

You tried? lol. You bitched and moaned and held up a sign like we all did. But in the end we didn't try anything, we expressed outrage and felt better about ourselves. But the RIGHT WING was really trying to win, they shaped their message and stuck together careful not to look insane.

You want to try then start thinking about winning back power and stop wasting time with outrage. The left is a national joke, hell even Amnesty International was on TV bitching about our weak on oppression image. Time to play smart folks, and if you don't get used to this little video your are going to see a hell of a lot more.


That's just a lie. I'm routinely outraged by injustices committed here on our own soil. And so are all the other DUers.

On our own soil? Sure. But when it's US troops die no one gives a shit except to use it as a tool against Bush.

[Guaranteed]

105. The 2002 election.

THAT was your so-called "playing smart." Genius.

Sorry, things are changing. No more rolling over. Bush appeasers are going by the wayside.

[Sterling]

125. You really think the freepers had the winning arguement for Iraq

That explains a lot.

[Kool Kitty]

102. So we should just go along with this because you're worried

about votes? If you don't want to listen to our opinions, go to another thread. And if you pay attention, you'll see that we aren't bitching about the soldiers, it is the actions in the video that has made people upset.

[janx]

110. The people in this thread are not bitching about the soldiers.

If you take the time to critically read all of the comments, you'll find that the people in this thread care very deeply about the soldiers.

THAT IS WHY WE'RE SO UPSET.

What is going to happen to the kid in the video when he finds out he did it all for a lie?

[alarcojon]

116. Amen to that!

Couldn't say it better myself. The reactions of these soldiers are a tragic consequence of war. They are one of the many reasons so many of us tried to prevent the war. It forces the agressors (that would be us) to dehumanize the enemy, which in turn dehumanizes us.


BTW, What exactly could we have said or done to stop this war? Bush's mind was made up!! We (and I'm referring to Americans and the world community) put up an unprecedented level of resistance before it began.

[Sterling]

126. We should have been more like the freepers Chill thinks.

They came off as credible where as the anti ar folk were loony according to the great champion of progressive causes Blue Chill.

[Sterling]

124. But I'm sick of people bitching about soldiers.

Ignoring this kind of act is imoral. You can be as sick as you want about people being upset by this kind of thing but it won't stop them from feeling that way.

They are just reacting the way any decent human would to the sight of such brutality.


What's your problem that you are not disturbed by this? That's what you need to be concerned with.

[janx]

108. How on earth can you compare this situation to WWII?!

I thought only right wingnuts had the gall to do that.

[banana republican]

75. THEY WERE JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS

Mine Furher

[never cry wolf]

77. Disgusting

:cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry::cry::grr::nuke::cry:

[redqueen]

92. War is hell, but hey, we can't cut and run!

:puke:

I'm so sick to death of hearing all this crap about how we have to 'win this' and we have to let our soldiers 'leave with dignity' and 'what message would it send if we left without blah blah blah'.

This is the SAME PROPOGANDA THEY USED TO KEEP US IN VIETNAM, FOLKS!

WAKE THE HELL UP ALREADY!


Every single TV in American homes should show this REALITY OF WAR EVERY SINGLE NIGHT UNTIL AMERICANS STOP BEING SO COMPLICIT IN THIS CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY!

[Midwest_Doc]

96. Can someone post this clip on the FreeRepublic

I would interested in their responses

[janx]

111. They're probably watching it already, eating popcorn and

drinking beer.

[Clark Can WIN]

100. Clark talked a bit about this,,,,,,,,,, the inevitable escalation of

violence and loss of humanity. How each side sees their freinds, commrades and countrymen suffering and dying and how it escalates the feelings of hatred and desire for retribution.

In other words in extended contact war, both sides start producing large numbers of monsters who have lost contact with their own humanity. Then you get scenes like this. If you asked that same kid 2 years ago if he could ever, ever behave in this fashion he would likely tell you no freakin way. This is what war does to people. Of course George doesn't know that because he kept his precious little ass far away from war.

Thanks George.

[Renew Deal]

104. That has to be illegal

What happened to the days they showed on CNN of our guys helping wounded Iraqi's? Either we got tougher, these guys are thugs, or it was a farse. I have a feeling that these guys are thugs.

[Mattforclark]

106. There's a book

"I first heard the author, Dave Grossman, on a radio interview promoting this book. I heard him say that that in the history of combat from Alexander the Great through World War II only about 15% of soldiers in battle were trying to kill the enemy. He's not talking about the long administrative and logistical tail of the army. Only 15-20% of the people with guns or swords in their hands, facing an enemy trying to harm them, were willing to kill that enemy. I know this is hard to believe. I first heard this statistic from a pacifist and I called him a liar. Then I heard it from this author, a former US Army Colonel and military historian, who references the research of the US Army's official W.W.II historian as well as many other scholars.

Once one accepts this fact, two questions immediately present themselves: "Why?" and "What to do about it?" The first question is easy: most humans have a deep and strong taboo against looking a person in the face and destroying them. Many would literally rather die than cross that line. The second question is more complex and hugely interesting.

Clearly, if only 15% of the assets you have expensively brought to face an enemy are performing, your army has a major problem. The US Army raised this traditional firing rate from 15% up to 50% between W.W.II and the Korean conflict and again to better than 95% in Vietnam and Desert Storm. The British similarly increased their firing rate, to devastating effect in the Falklands against Argentines still performing at traditional levels. All modern militaries have since solved the problem. How?"

http://www.mayogenuine.com/killing.htm

[jokerman93]

109. The blood-dimmed tide is loosed

How deep in black despair must a man dwell in himself for murder to deliver a good feeling? Must be almost dead inside.

The egregious nature of this occupation must not escape many of these young men. I suspect they know on some level that the people who sent them to war have lied -- and abandoned them to finish the job or die.

Perhaps Iron Hammer really is Ken Lay's erotic fantasy of "mow 'em all down and see what happens". Maybe it's policy. Maybe we've cut down on taking prisoners now. The Pentagon must know we're at war with the very people the press claims we are liberating. Perhaps Rumsfeld and whoever else is running this hororshow know they need to finish (win) this fast -- and get the f*k out before the American public finds out what they've done.

We seem to be outright murdering families and non-combatants now -- not to mention disregarding the Geneva Convention in actual battle as may be the case with this clip.

__________________________________

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

-- W. B. Yeats

[w4rma]

113. Yup. This stuff happens in Iraq. One of the reasons I opposed going in

at all. :(

Blame the politicians and buisnessfolks who sent these kids over there and propaganized up their hatred towards some Iraqis, please. The soldiers are over there doing the best that they can (even with crazy crap like this) and are doing what, in their judgement, they are supposed to do.

Yes, the video is shown out of context, but I'm positive that worse things are happening over there than this. That's war and it truely sucks.

[Tansy_Gold]

115. kick

for the afternoon/evening crowd

[amber dog democrat]

119. Revolted

but not in the least surprised. I was not expecting to see footage of what could be a major Article 15 - in the making. Stuff like that could get you a general courts martial. Of course we will execute prisoners. They're not people.

One can only imagine what happens in a combat area - when no one is looking.

We'll start seeing reports of fraggings eventually too. Its all a part of military culture.

[alfredo]

120. Timothy Mc Veigh would be proud.

I just sent the video to a friend who works for a human rights group in Europe.

With instructions.

[bpilgrim]

121. A Look From The Iraqi Resistance POV ---------------------- VIDEO

Resistance from Iraqi point of view
The Video was made on 11 September, 2003 near Fallujah by 'Iraqi National Liberation Army' showing how easy to attack a U.S. convoy


turned over to Time Magazine, 1 September, 2003
http://globalfreepress.net/movs/iraq/resistance

peace

[12 12 2000]

122. Just like Cheney....

and his cronies killing 400+ fenced in, tame pheasants recently during a "hunt". That Iraqi was little more than a pheasant to that GI. Equally cruel, equally inhuman and criminal behavior. It all flows from the top. We MUST get rid of these neo-fascists/neo-cons who are turning this country into Nazi Germany!

[1songbird]

127. The perils of war seen on the bright shiny face of the once

innocent. The soldier is asked to kill for his country. With each death bit by bit he himself will loose his humanity.

[Moderator]

129. Duplicate and GDF Rule violations

Discussion topic locked by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules. Click here to review the General Discussion Forum rules.