Is anyone else getting a little freaked by the right's "embrace" of Dean?

[AngryYoungMan]

I saw the cover of National Review and it scared me a little.

Is this REALLY "reverse psychology"? Or does Dean have some kind of massive achilles heel that we can't see because we've got liberal "blinders" on?

I mean, we're talking about publications aimed squarely at conservative readers, not at the general public. And it seems like their glee about Dean is heartfelt.

But then, they're always hard to figure out when it comes to this kind of thing. Their weird obsession with Hillary is a case in point.

Anyone else getting a little nervous? Or can someone reassure me by showing me what's wrong with my logic? Thanks.

on edit:

TO CLARIFY: I'm talking about the people who want him to be the candidate so that Bush will win. Apparently a lot of right wing groups/individuals are donating to his campaign because if he's the candidate then Bush wins.

[soleft]

1. Joe Scarborough was referring to the National Review as lefty

[Parche]

2. KERRY

I like Dean, but I know he doesnt have what Kerry has
to beat Bush, and I want someone who will beat Bush,
We cannot afford another 4years of this Terra

[AngryYoungMan]

5. Respectfully, you're not addressing my post at all.

I didn't ask what other candidates DUers preferred. I asked a very specific question.

[theivoryqueen]

3. I can't be bothered to respond to or retain anything the buttites do

I'll just wait til votin' time and throw down. Whoever is the other guy gets my vote.

[supernova]

4. Yes, it freaks me out

a little. But it's not Dean so much as I would feel that way about any candidate the GOP decided to focus on.

They like him b/c they think he's a McGovern wannabe. And we all know what happened to McGovern. But I'm not certain that's true. That's an awfully big gamble to simply assume that if Dean were the nominee the 2004 election would be a repeat of the 1972 election, complete with the same results.

For the very reasons the GOP like Dean could also be the same reasons for their downfall come next November. }(

[chopper]

76. yeah..

"And we all know what happened to McGovern."

yeah, he lost to a corrupt, racist republican asshole who nearly destroyed the office of the President of the United States.

hey, the analogy does work!

[caledesi]

88. Dean is nothing like McGovern. That is a RW ploy....McGovern=

Dean - LOSER.

Dean doesn't have the same temperament. He is a "street fighter," unlike McGovern (McGovern was too nice).

I get so sick of comparing Dean to McGovern or Dukasis or Mondale.
His personality is NOTHING like any of them. Plus, his campaign is brilliant, whether you want to admit or not.

We have the power!

[LuminousX]

6. Trust yourself, not publications

You have the power and ability to analyze and decide for yourself. Don't let others have undue influence in your decision making process.

For the record, though, I think Novak's hit piece on Dean shows that the right isn't embracing Dean, only some contingents of the right are.

I also believe (with no evidence mind you) that some of the people on the right who are saying they want Dean to run versus Bush secretly want Dean to win. Bush isn't a conservative. Dean at least has the fiscal responsibility angle (though I expect that to be attacked by the end of the week.)

[Skwmom]

46. Novak has been a cheerleader for Dean.

However, now that they are so sure Dean will be the nominee they can start tearing him down (not that it's going to take much).

[John_H]

58. So has Tweety, Lunz, CiCi, and many other ex-media whores, now objective

journalists.

[blm]

69. You would think that Luntz' longtime lust for Dean would have alarm bells

ringing off the hook. The first time I saw him focus group people he tried to push them to Lieberman. The next one was all about Dean and what an awful person Kerry is. They never changed from there. Did you know that Dean has won every debate so far? Luntz sez so.

[LuminousX]

70. Hasn't worked so far.

[Walt Starr]

7. Poop

:hurts:

[supernova]

10. LOL!

Are you on a poopfest, Walt? :D

[Bombtrack]

8. the only reverse psychology is Gillespie going to Vermont

which even the Dean campaign staff admitted "we love this". And served nothing more than to rile up his supporters and get more cash.

[caledesi]

89. Don't forget Rove who was in Vermont a couple of months ago

just to get DIRT! Yeah, they don't fear Dean. Uh, no....

edit: typos

[caledesi]

91. Exactly. And remember Rove went to Vermont to to get some

dirt on Dean. Seems there wasn't much. Ho Hum. Keep trashing Dean and all he has to do is "put up the bat." He can get any $ he asks for. Sorry.

edit: typos and stuff

[CWebster]

Here we go again.

Do you folks read anything OTHER THAN RIGHT WING PROPAGANDA OUTLETS? Huh?

[AngryYoungMan]

15. Can you be a little less callously dismissive of what I'm saying?

National Review is nothing to sneeze at, and it's not the only outlet for the sentiment I'm describing.

I read lots of stuff, left, right, and center. Should I stop doing this? Are you recommending that I put my head in the sand?

[uberotto]

9. So your question is...

Are the Repubes trying to tarnish Dean by claiming to think that he is weak against Bush, or are we all just stupid?

I can't answer for you, but I for one don't think that I am stupid.

[CWebster]

24. What are they going to say

that they are shaking in their boots while they are so obviously fixated on him? Shoot,Mohommed Ali understood the psych-out ploy.

[DebbieCDC]

11. Right Wing Embrance

Of course the freepers want Dean to be the Dem candidate. They are just licking their chops to paint him with the dreaded liberal brush. Hell, they'll probably call him a communist - hey he even approved civil unions. Got to be a pinko commie. My take is they can't wait to put Dumbya's good ole red, white & blue kick em in the ass 'Merkan philosophy up against the New England socialized medicine liberal. I for one would can't wait to see Dumbya try to debate the Doctor IF the whore media has the guts to put on a one on one debate NOT moderated by Faux News.

[Scott Lee]

60. The rose in the shit pile.

Those of you who "fear" a rightwing embrace of Howard Dean...I guess you don't see the wonderful opportunity in front of you? Let me sketch it out for you.

Dumbass rethugs who want Dean so bush can "beat him" send Dean money. That's great - Dean gets more funds and deliciously takes them from the very fruitcakes whose god he's going to overthrow. Dean wins and the dumbasses freak out for being taken.

More moderate, thinking rethugs (I actually found out there are some), disgruntled or angry with Bush and his betrayal of "true" conservative values decide to teach him a lesson and vote for Dean. Good news again - Dean gets that additional voter base.

Let's see, between extra funds and additional voters, WHAT exactly is the problem with this "Rightwing Embrace", again?

[caledesi]

100. Well said RL. eom

[caledesi]

92. Believe me...Bush* will NOT debate Dean. There will be some

kind of an excuse. Bush* can't even speak a coherent sentence, and he is going to debate Dean? Puhleeeze.......

[andym]

97. Debates

They'll use the same rules that we have in the Democratic debates.
1 minute answers max. The * can just spout memorized zingers.
Dean hasn't done amazingly well in this format. So they'll offer this or nothing.

[zeemike]

12. The only thing that worries me

Is that the head games that they play with our minds just might work.

[caledesi]

93. We see thru their "head games".....it's not hard. eom

[w13rd0]

13. Here is what is wrong with your logic...

...you are attempting to ascribe logic to the GOPs actions, and overthinking. Listen to the candidates and make your own decisions. Quit 'reacting' to the GOP talking points. More than half of them are lies anyway, and we'll have to address them by calling them out into the open and shining a big friggin light on them. Not to cause a flame war, but when the GOP backed Nader, they did so with substantially less fanfare and crowing about it, and it worked for them. The Bush administration reacts to EVERYTHING with overconfidence and bluster. That's how they operate. Just months ago, they were acting as if the salivated at the opportunity to face off against someone who disagreed with them on Iraq. Now they don't focus on that so much. They'll keep moving their target and overstating their case. Listen to the candidates and make your own decision.

[AngryYoungMan]

18. I am MAKING my own decision.

Did I say I was going to change my affiliation? Have I even mentioned my affiliation? I'm looking at reality, where it is extremely likely that Dean will be the nominee, whether or not one DUer posts one way or another or votes one way or another. I am considering this scenario and wondering what will happen. Nobody is changing my mind or my opinions about whom to support. Am I not making myself clear?

[caledesi]

101. Good point! eom

[Rose Siding]

14. Novak and Broder didn't get the memo

(and that's just today- ck the editorial forum)

Don't let it get to you. Repubs don't *like* dems so they run head trips and talk bad about us ;)

[caledesi]

102. And they call ALL Dems "communists." eom

[mrgorth]

16. Bottom line

They have no idea what's coming. None whatsoever.

[Cha]

27. Hehe!

[DinkyDem]

71. Just what exactly is coming?

I mean on intelligent terms, not just "that stupid chimp will poop his diapers" crap.

Have you SEEN America?
Have you been out there?

Surely you must see what is coming for Dean. He will be killed on the anti-war talk. He will be massacred on the tax rasing talk. And he will be crucified on the gay rights talk.

You can bet Karl Rove has a treasure trove full of dirty laundry on Dean, and *YOU* don't know the first thing about the man beyond his Bush bashing anti-war rhetoric.

If we're going to DEFEAT BUSH in '04 we're gonna have to toughen up!

[janx]

79. ooooohh!! I'm skeered of Karl Rove!! ooooohh!!

:scared: :scared::scared:
:scared:

:scared: :scared::scared::scared:

[caledesi]

90. Doesn't look like it.

Dean is not an "anti-war" candidate. Get your facts. www.deanforamerica.com. He was not opposed to the FIRST Gulf War and he was NOT opposed to the war in Afghanistan. So where do you get this anit-war crap? He was opposed to the war in Iraq and rightfully so. Look at what's happening there. Take a GOOD look.

Tax raising? My friend, he wants to cancel all the tax cuts from *. Who in the hell is giving tax cuts during a war? Nobody! It is utterly ridiculous. During a war, the country usually makes sacrifices. Not this time. * is so out of touch.

Karl Rove was in Vermont trying to get dirt on Dean. What did he come up with. Not much. Oh, yeah, the "draft" thing. You don't want to go there, because HD will eventually bring up the question of "Just where were you, Mr. Bush* from 1971-1972?" Answer please.
It's a non-starter.

The only other thing (very innocuous) are the sealed records of the Governor. Well, hello? Bush* had HIS records sealed as well (most governors do). And now Bush* has release SOME of his records. Dean will too, to the embarrassment of the GOP. You don't want to go there.

Dean is a "street fighter." Don't f*ck with him.

[caledesi]

104. Karl Rove is NOT the genius he is made out to be.

Trippi is a helluva lot smarter than Rove.

Remember, Al Gore won. So much for KR's tactics.

[caledesi]

94. You are so right MR. eom

[caledesi]

103. MG...you are so right! "Bring 'em on." eom

[mzmolly]

17. Not at all, their masking their fear.

Dean is the anti-Bush, he's the best person to beat * and they know it.

[AngryYoungMan]

21. Thanks for actually answering my question.

eom

[Skwmom]

47. Yeah right. That's why the corporate controlled media

and right wing talking heads have been cheering him on.

[Upfront]

19. No

I think they are very concerned about Dean. He is so hard to lable. I do believe many non neo-con republicans are looking at someone besides B***. Dean is a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. They think he has it half right so is better then B***. Democrats need to decide what they think, who they want, and back that position. Quit worrying about what Rove thinks.

[caledesi]

95. Let's face it. The repugs wanted Lieberman. Good laugh, huh? eom

[redqueen]

20. Dean freaks me out just fine without any help from anyone n/t

[Hope4]

28. I am thinking of switching from dean to DK

This thread has help even more. I started last week to get this gut feeling that something is wrong with both dean and clark. I do not like to have small groups of powerful people tell me who I should vote for. Is that not how bush became president?

It is like Dean and Clark are the selective president candidates of two different power groups in the dem party and all these other hard working loyal dems should drop out because the two power groups say it is right.

Correct me if you think I am wrong. If we all on here think it is wrong to select instead of elect bush, why do we not apply that to the group of people we have running. I do not understand clark at all. He is a zell miller type and has he become a dem yet?

I liked dean until recently. He is a dem, and really respected what he did with the internet.

Let us stand up like our union brothers and sisters to any powerful rich guys coming in and saying you have to have my friend take this promotion over the loyal members who have worked hard for years.

[redqueen]

43. Can't disagree

I originally backed Gore and was upset when he announced he woulnd't run. Then I backed Dean because he seemed to be such a populist and was against the war (mostly).

I agree with you that this is very much about the powerful, and who they think should deserve to be elected. Your comparison to Bush is very apt to me also, since Bush also was given wide latitude to run a campaign that didn't reflect his record accurately. Notice Kucinich has no problem speaking about his conversion from pro-life... and contrast that with Dean's defensiveness when confronted with his record. He denies, obfuscates, and eventually explains it in such a way that those who want to will believe it. IMO this just makes him a weaker candidate.

The democratic party machine is in no way loyal to the people of this country. We have been pushed SO FAR to the right, and during Clinton's 8 years we barely inched back leftward. This I consider a betrayal and will never be able to support another centrist for it.

I don't know about comparing him to Zell, but he was very centrist and Zell is a conservative Democrat, so it may be a fair comparison... Dean's recent conversion to the more progressive variety of Democrat leaves one with a fair degree of uncertainty as to who he really is.

I'm with you... there's one candidate for repealing Taft-Hartley, and that's Kucinich. If you believe it's time to stop abusing workers for the sake of big business, Kucinich is your man. :)

[DinkyDem]

73. You got that exactly right

Dean and Clark are the standard bearers from two factions on the party machinery locked in a struggle for control.

And guess what?
Both factions are the Big Money Republicans in Democrat clothing who are only in politics for the power and fund-raisers.

The NRA has been hedging their bets and pumping up the Dean candidacy below the radar so that they win no matter who the President winds up being.

If Dean gets the nomination 2004/2005 is going to be a VERY good year for the NRA and gun lobby!

[CivilRightsNow]

86. Keep talking... soon we will have to SHOUT

You are not wrong. I will admit, I cannot speak much to Dean because Ive been so mired in the rabbithole I fell down when investigating the person who I believed intially to be the best candidate.. Wesley Clark.

But yes, Clark is amoung the same group of powerful people that pull the strings behind the Bush/Cheney fiasco of an administration. Clark was a republican that has recently changed his tune and said he either.. didnt get around to voting.. didnt vote because of military politics.. or that he voted for clinton and for gore. It's dizzying. He is Zellish and a war hawk that has flip flopped back and forth on that as well. It's truly fascinating. And then I look at the media and the way they spin things or dont cover things.. and I understand why everyone isnt up in arms.

Everyone is so sedated and pacified in thinking that these people are true firebrand revolutionaries because of a couple of anti bush comments... it is amazing.

Im not officially a Kucinich supporter. I have to start digging up what information I can up after organizing what I have on Clark. I feel like I could write a book! And I still dont know exactly what all of it means, so many twists and turns...

[EarlG]

22. There's an interesting article on our home page today

One of our occasional articles discussing an individual Dem candidate for the presidency. I'll reprint the relevant section here:

Who's Afraid of Howard Dean?
December 11, 2003
By Raul Groom

Editor's Note: Democratic Underground welcomes articles about individual Democratic candidates for political office. Publication of these articles does not imply endorsement of any candidate by the editors of Democratic Underground.

...snip...

The reason a Dean Presidency would be a huge disaster for the current leadership of the party is subtle but otherwise unconcealed. One need only take note of the most recent round of emails sent out by the Dean campaign to understand the danger. With an increasingly unobstructed path to the Democratic nomination ahead of him, Howard is holding out a helping hand to Congressmen in potential trouble in 2004. His activist base, unprecedented in terms of volunteer power, is likely to make a Dean victory long on coattails. The resulting shift in power could suddenly and permanently alter the face of the Democratic Party, and of course any Democrat loyal to Dean is going to be eager to toss the New Democrats out and install their own people in leadership roles.

That's why Lieberman, Daschle and the other DLC heavyweights seem so often to be singing from the same hymnal as Karl Rove and the RNC. In a sense, their interests are convergent - all of them are terrified by the idea of Howard Dean winning the Democratic nomination.

"But wait!" I hear the hue and cry rising up from the assembled masses even as I type this article. "Karl Rove would love to run against Dean - it's been in all the papers!" And indeed it has.

Papers like the Weekly Standard, which has also run stories that breathlessly (and speciously) reported that Dean had called for Osama bin Laden's life to be spared - if Bush can ever find the guy, of course. Papers like the National Review, whose Approved Script on the subject of Mr. Howard Dean not only includes Rove's allegedly ungenerous assessment of the Governor's chances but also the cheery allegation that Dean hates Christians and that Vermont under his governorship is now officially the Tenth Circle of Hell.

Newsmax.com ran a story in early November suggesting that Rove was actively campaigning for Dean. Just Thursday The New York Post went to press with the most unusual take on the subject I've seen to date - "GOP TRIES TO BOOST DEAN BY BURYING HIM." The idea behind the article is just what the headline implies - that Rove's recent TV attacks on Dean are an attempt to make him more attractive to Democratic primary voters. In fact, it seems practically every one of Karl Rove's favorite newspapers is constantly telling us what a pushover Howard Dean would be in the general election.

A lot of naïve Dems have apparently fallen for all of this hokum. I still hear a lot of moaning from people who ought to know better that "Howard Dean is the next McGovern." Perhaps these people have forgotten the real story of George McGovern and Ed Muskie. It's an important parallel, and apt, in its own way, so here's a quick refresher:

In 1968, Lyndon Johnson bowed out of his race for a second term amid widespread outrage over his handling of the U.S. occupation of Vietnam. LBJ's unusual abdication paved the way for the nomination of the wildly popular Robert Kennedy, who was tragically killed during the primary race in one of the most bizarre assassinations in world history. After Kennedy's death, the nomination went to Hubert Humphrey, a pitifully unfit and unqualified man who was the physical embodiment of Harry Truman's famous quip that the Vice Presidency was not worth a warm bucket of spit.

After Richard Nixon won a predictable but close victory over the hapless Humphrey, it was clear that the future of the party lay in the impressive stature and easy demeanor of Humphrey's running mate, Ed Muskie. Muskie, somewhat ironically, was Joe Lieberman's kind of guy - a straight-shooter who was often compared to Honest Abe Lincoln. He was the perfect foil to Nixon's unctuous, Styrofoam public image, and he scared the GOP to death.

Unfortunately for Muskie, his ultra-progressive, eminently workable ideas - he would later craft many of the environmental protections which we've taken for granted for 20 years, and which Dick Cheney's energy policy has cavalierly discarded - scared a lot of people in the Democratic party as well, and his Democratic opponents became unwittingly complicit in a Republican plot to essentially drive Muskie insane. The details of the effort, the crowning achievement of the Nixon Machine, are too sordid and extensive to detail here, but the campaign to destroy Muskie has remained the gold standard for political smear tactics ever since.

That campaign was engineered by one Donald Segretti (who wound up doing time for distributing illegal campaign materials) and his protégé, one Karl Rove.

It's worth noting that at no time during Rove's debut caper, which was clearly designed to throw the Democratic nomination to George McGovern, did he or anyone else in Nixon's campaign say publicly "Gee, we'd sure love to run against George McGovern." You see, that would have been really dumb.

So, Dear Reader, let us consider two possibilities. Either Karl Rove has developed a Dubyaesque case of the deep-down stupids since sabotaging the 1972 Democratic Primary, or he's trying to do the same thing to Howard Dean that he did to Ed Muskie so many years ago. I leave the final decision up to you.

Let me give you one last piece of evidence to chew on, however, before you make up your mind. The man Rove supposedly is deathly afraid of running against? Dick "Briar Patch" Gephardt. And if you buy that, I've got a 1994 Nissan Sentra I really need to get off my hands - it's in great shape, really great. I only drive it to church and the liquor store, one of which I very rarely visit.

Truth is, Karl Rove is holed up in a house of straw right now with his buddies Joe and Tom, and they're all chanting, loud enough for all the gullible conservative pundits to hear and recite - "Who's Araid of Howard Dean?" They'd better get to work right quick with the bricks and the trowel, because Big Bad Howie is coming to blow all their houses down.

...snip...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/12/11_dean.html

* On edit - I feel it is important to mention yet again that DU is not endorsing a candidate during the primaries, and on a personal note I have not made a decision about a candidate either. I'm posting this because - regardless of my opinion of Howard Dean - I believe that when it comes to choosing a Democratic nominee the LAST people we should pay attention to are Karl Rove and the right-wing media.

[theivoryqueen]

25. This guy is good!

I always mean to thank ya'll for providing such fine content, but somehow never get around to it. So, here is Cheers to DU!

[Cha]

I wholeheartedly agree with this!

"I believe that when it comes to choosing a Democratic nominee the LAST people we should pay attention to are Karl Rove and the right-wing media."

I pay attention to what my candidate is doing ..not what someone else's preception is of him.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Amen Earl. I don't give a shit what ROVE thinks...I'm still trying to

ferret out what I think about who is the greatest choice.

[John_H]

61. This is an odd bit of revisionist history, but it does prove the

"They want Dean" argument which I assume it is trying to disprove.

As the article points out, Rove is doing exactly what Segretti did in '72

The full out media assault against Muskie looks like the assault against Clark.

Tapes PROVE that Nixon told Coleson to get Republicans to donate to McGovern's campaign and to put the word out to firndly media NOT to attack McGovern. Sound familair?

Niether Bush nor Rove have publicly said that they want Dean, have they?

Evidence of this author's political ideology and historical accuracy are represented in the following bizzarre sentence:

"Hubert Humphrey, a pitifully unfit and unqualified man who was the physical embodiment of Harry Truman's famous quip that the Vice Presidency was not worth a warm bucket of spit." Please see any of his bios to see the truth which is the opposite.

The bottom line: Nixon tried to destroy Muskie, helped McGovern, and then beat the shit out of him dispite Viet Nam.

And little baby rove is trying to do exactly the same thing. And, unfortunately, some dems are willing to distort history to do it.

[janx]

67. Excellent. It's about time someone actually wrote this down.

.

[wryter2000]

23. If they like Dean so much...

If they like Dean so much, why is Bush targetting Dean specifically in his ad?

[AngryYoungMan]

26. False logic

Premise is that Bush wants to run against Dean (the way Nixon wanted to run against McGovern).

This translates into: 1) hyping Dean as the favored candidate; 2) beginning to run against him.

Bush isn't targeting Dean because he wants to run against somebody else. That doesn't make sense.

[ShimokitaJer]

45. I think you're missing the admin - echo chamber division of labor

The role of Karl Rove is to leak (dis)information to the media. This includes the meme that he wants Bush to run against Dean.

The role of the echo chamber is to selectively disseminate (dis)information to paint the Democrats in as ugly a light as possible. Naturally, they spread the meme that Dean can't possibly beat Bush and Rove knows it. They also spread the meme that Dean has no issues -- just hatred of Bush. If it's the Club for Growth, they naturally spread the meme that Dean is a tax-and-spend liberal who wants to take away the tax cuts Bush gave all us hard-working Americans.

The role of Bush is to take on the echo chamber-created caricatures of the Dems rather than the Dems themselves. Bush can selectively confirm or deny any collusion with the echo chamber when it suits his purposes (i.e. - when Rove tells him to). Since the media decided that Dean is the man to beat, both Bush and the echo chamber have been forced to deal with him, but they haven't deviated an inch from the story that Dean is a tax-and-spend Dem with no issues except beyond hating Bush, and that he is therefore unelectable.

[sendero]

29. Man..

.... this point is getting old.

If Rove, the master political poker player thought Dean would be an easy hand to beat, do you think he'd tip his hand?

Rove is nothing if not a controller of the message. Any message you are hearing from the right it what he wants you to hear.

Don't fall for it. Even if he had a clue who he could beat, he wouldn't be telling you about it.

[caledesi]

98. Rove is not the "boy genius".....Trippi is. And they will find out

the hard way. People-powered Dean. Hey, a new concept, no?

[vi5]

30. It means they are scared of him and that we can win.

Unless they say they don't like him. Then that means they are scared of him and he can win. And if a liberal says they don't like him that also means they are scared of him and he can win. Or a centrist democrat. If a centrist democrat doesn't like him then that means they are scared of him and we can win.

Errr....let's just say that any criticisms or praise means that we can win.

[On the Road]

31. Strangely Enough, There's Some of Both

Yes, I am a little freaked by the number of RW comments on how much they want to run against Dean.

Some of them I think are disingenuous; others are clueless.

But sometimes I wonder whether they're seeing something I don't. Maybe they think Dean will say some things that are damaging to his campaign, which is possible. Maybe they think they can paint him as a McGovern, which I think is mistaken. Maybe they think the country is so scared of terrorism and gung-ho for war that a majority will reject anyone against the war in Iraq, which I think is even more mistaken.

Dean was at 4% in the polls 11 months ago. Everyone underestimated him. Let's see where he is 11 months from now.

[Kazak]

32. "Dumb" republicans want Dean...

The "smart" ones are scared sh*tless.

[PVnRT]

33. The same right-wing media

that published every horseshit conspiracy theory against Clinton, that continuously lies and puts out disinformation...you are honestly taking it seriously?

[Cha]

34. They think it's okay to lie.. that the end...

justifies the means..

[Abbalon]

35. Republicans

are trying desparately to defeat Dean in the primaries. Dean is the very man they fear most.

Reverse psycology works on Freepers and those who don't know there own mind. Problem is that Dean supporters stand for something. Bush will not succeed.

Those who surcomb to this ploy and vote against Dean on acount of the supposed Republican support were not likely to stay the course anyway.


This rightwing nonsense is a poor attempt at reverse psycology. Nothing more.

(Edited for poor spelling)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Just like the left embraced Reagan

I remember how elated we were when Reagan won the nomination for governor. "Nobody will vote for that brainless boob."

Unfortunately, we made the mistake of underestimating the stupidity of the American people and their love of brainless boobs. Notice the current occupant of the WH and the polls showing that the "people" like him because he is a "down to earth", (he wears cowboy boots) "straight-talkin'", (unread, inarticulate, 2 syllable word, goober), married to a woman straight out of the Stepford Wives. Even though they disagree with just about everything he stands for.

Same as Reagan. Everybody hated his policies but the mindless loved his down home idiocy.

The right wingers are making a similar mistake in embracing Dean. "Too Liberal", "Too anti-war", "Too strident" etc. The reality is that tho' Dean is not nearly left enough as far as I'm concerned, he isn't afraid to take on BushCorp head on instead of playing to the mythical "moderates" by moving right and being nice.

[mzmolly]

37. BTW, I've heard Republican strategists say they FEAR Dean...

on many an occasion. So, I guess I should have clarified that ;)

http://www.mikehersh.com/Republicans_Fear_Howard_Dean.shtml

[janx]

77. I followed the link...excellent!

I think more people should read that now. Why not do a thread on the Hersh column?

The best thing about it was that it laid out the official RNC strategy against Dean, a strategy that is so desperate and will turn out to be so inefficient that I can't help but laugh!

[patricia92243]

38. CALM DOWN!

The expression "whisteling thru the graveyard" fits here.

The pubs are scared to death of Dean.

That is why they pretending to "endorse" him.

They know that this is called the "kiss of death" - for one party to "endorse" a candidate from the opposition party.

It will not work this time - unless we let it.

As usual, the pubs try to set our agenda - and as usual we fall for it.

DON'T LET THEM MAKE OUR AGENDA!

[Gringo]

39. If rightwingers are so brilliant & omnipotent, why they pick Dole in 96?

They have misjudged the will of the American people and they will again. The fact is that this will be very close. The GOP's scenario of a near 50 state sweep for Bush is quite possible. It is also quite possible that the American people will be fed up enough with Bush that we will have an upset victoy with some coattails. I don't think they've "embraced" him. They are drunk with power and smugness. It will come back to bite them in the ass. If not in '04, then in '08, but it WILL happen.

[Terwilliger]

40. No, I'm freaked by the freaks on this board who can't handle...

Gore's decision.

[qwertyMike]

41. You asked a great questiion

and got few direct answers.

I hang around lucianne.com and they have a permanent obsession with Hillary, then more recently with Kerry when he looked like a winner. Now the obsession is with Dean.
I think it's a 'bring em on' kind of thing. They are obsessed with the ones they fear most I think.
Yes, a sort of reverse psychology as you say.
They will be that way till the nimination is decided. Their obsession is proportional to their fear.

They'd DIE if Hillary gets the nod

[ibegurpard]

44. Nope

I'm completely tuning that one out. I can't tell you how many articles I've read that say either republicans WANT to run against Dean or DON'T WANT to run against Dean. Pointless to let them make our decision for us.

[catherineD]

48. They can't lose with Dean

As you know, Dean is unlikely to win the general election, because he has no foreign policy experience, and people traditionally believe that Republicans are strong on defense. Dean can't even climb into a pretend flight suit. With Bush's money, the Republicans will be able to make sure that no one changes their mind about this.

As a former governor, when they unseal those records they are bound to be able to find something that they can use against him, like they did against Dukakis when an early release program for prisoners led to a murder by Willie Horton (this is from memory, the details may be a little fuzzy). They showed a commercial again and again that blamed Dukakis for the murder. It affected people's psyche.

But they don't even need those records unsealed, to show a couple of gay men kissing and say that's the America that Dean dreams of, since he signed that law in Vermont.

So the Republicans are trying to help Dean along to the Democratic nomination. He's had favorable profiles in the Wall Street Journal and I hear a Republican lobbyist has done some fundraising for him. Perhaps all of the tv and news coverage that he gets may also have its roots in approval from the top.

But even if Dean should somehow manage to become president, it's win-win. The Democratic legislature in Vermont didn't like him, because he refused to push Democratic legislation. He's interested in balancing the budget, and then is probably more interested in providing tax cuts than new programs. Yes, I realize he's mentioned some, but they are not distinguishably more liberal than any of the other candidates. And my feeling is that he would reneg on some of these, since they don't seem to fall in line with his record in Vermont. Remember how Clinton went around calling in political favors to get Republicans to vote for NAFTA? When NAFTA was already a Republican program? How the Republicans must have been laughing, to get concessions to do what they wanted. Maybe Dean would be smarter than that, but he is well known in Vermont as a moderate Democrat. You wouldn't dare be any more moderate than him in Vermont -- you couldn't get voted in. What if he'd been governor in Texas? Do you really think he'd look anywhere near as liberal, or would he sound more like Lieberman?

I realize that Clark is now supported by the Clintons, but my feeling is that Clark is studying domestic policy now and it is an eye-opening experience. He's used to making plans and seeing results, and he's setting out benchmarks that will be a measure of his accomplishments in the White House. His own rating of himself will depend on achieving these benchmarks. You can read about them -- the turnaround plan -- on his website at clark04.com. I think his presidency will be a more liberal one than a Dean presidency, but that his campaign is aware that he needs to not give Republicans fodder for the general election. But mostly, of course, he can beat Bush because a four-star generals take on foreign policy will trump any Republican's.

[Cha]

62. No. Dean Will win the "general election"...

because he is a fighter who knows his stuff. And is able to counteract the lies of his opponents with the Truth Immediately.

9/11 happened because bushco was asleep at the wheel. We need someone who is vigilant and I think Gore will help Dean immensely in learning more of what he needs to know.

[liberalpress]

81. I've been holding back...

..but I feel I must now inject my $.02. If Dean wins the nomination, it will not be because of he says or doesn't say, or what he does or doesn't do. It will be because (hopefully) us Dems learned a lesson form the pasting we got in '02. Much of that was solely because the Rethugs beat us at our own game. They got a lot of grassroots support, something we invented, but didn't use in '02.

That grassroots ball is now rolling down OUR street again. And, regardless of the eventuall candidate selection, will be the unstoppable force that will give us the White House (and I truly believe) the Senate in '04.

[AntiCoup2K4]

49. Here's a brief history lesson

In the 1980 campaign, the Democratic party underestimated a washed up, has been B-movie actor who was running against Jimmy Carter on a far right ticket. As we found out, it was a mistake to underestimate Reagan, and the implications of that are still playing a part in the very policies killing this country right now,as the current illegal regime literally worships old jellybean brain.

Let the 'pukes underestimate Howard Dean. They do so at their own peril. Even PNAC frontman Kristol is starting to figure it out, but much of them will remain overconfident. Go for it, Republicans. Keep telling yourself that the Idiot is untouchable :evilgrin:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. Dean Fits Into the RW's Stereotype and Comfort Zone

They have their attack machine primed and ready, and Dean, in their mind, fits right into their crosshairs. They will paint him as:

a small-time governor of a tiny, liberal New England state that elects Socialists to office and allows gays to get "married";

a weak leader with zero experience in foreign policy during a time of war;

a tax-and-spend liberal who wants to raise taxes on the poor and middle class;

a pot-smoking draft-dodger;

an angry, negative, mentally unstable, bitter man;

etc. etc. etc.

Of course, all (well, most, anyway) of these claims are complete bullshit. The danger lies in the fact that many of these stereotypes ALSO happen to fit right into the stereotypes that the RW and the whore media have been blaring into our consciousness and subconsciousness for decades. Many American voters are apathetic and lack attention span; it will be all too easy for them to buy into the RW lies, especially the legendary "swing" voters who don't have any strong partisanship one way or the other.

The challenge we will face as a party if Dean is our nominee is to defeat the RW stereotypes with "rapid response" counterattacks while simultaneously getting out our own message.

DTH

[Schmendrick54]

82. Well said, but whoever we choose will be a target.

I agree with your list of attacks which will probably highlight the Bush campaign if Dean is nominated. I think there will be a different (but equally long) list whomever we nominate. In every case the list will be mostly bullshit; but your "rapid response" counterattack approach is exactly right -- whoever we nominate.

Thanks, DTH,

Schmendrick

[Larry Gude]

51. Angry...

...a few thoughts for you.

It's probably self defeating to be focusing on campaign directors per se. Jim Carville slept well every time an op-ed or talk show attack was directed at him and not his guy. They WANT you to be directing negatives at them. It's part of their job.

That said, any coherent analysis of the electorate would tend to argue that Rove would prefer Dean over Kerry/Joe/Gep/ because he does not poll well as they do with the 'middle'; IE the people who elected Clinton twice, GHW Bush, Reagan twice, Carter and so on.

Interestingly enough, this whole thread is basically anointing Howard Dean. That in and of itself should worry you. Not one damn vote has been cast and people (Gore) are clamoring for the battle for the nomination to end.

Wanna reason to freak out: Gores prescription that Dean is right now tested enough to be ready this fall.

The entire point of a primary is to battle harden a candidate in preparation to appeal to a national electorate. Not a Congressional District. Not a State. Not a Party. The whole Nation.

If Rove truly wants Dean, what could be possibly better from his standpoint than what Gore is suggesting?

[littlejoe]

52. Sounds like parnoia to me

Both on your part and the right's. They are trying to hard to portray supreme confidence in their man, that's all. And believe me, that's going to be a full time job for them. Having to defend the indefensible and immoral actions of this administration will leave them gasping.

[w4rma]

53. Election 2004: Why Dean Can Win, September 2003 (this is a GOP PR firm)

TO: Moore Information Clients & Friends

FROM: Hans Kaiser & Bob Moore

RE: Election 2004: Why Dean Can Win, September 2003

A recent article by David Brooks left readers with the distinct impression that Republican pollsters are all of the opinion that Howard Dean cannot possibly beat George Bush. We regret that he didn’t check with us first, as it is our belief that Dean has the potential to be a formidable candidate who could give the President a very difficult race.

The conventional wisdom that has some Republicans giddy about a potential Dean candidacy is not only misguided, it is counterproductive. Writing off a candidate like Dean by selectively sorting statistical gobble-de-gook and mixing it into a broth of “empirical” sociological evidence ignores the political realities of our time.
…
The difference between Howard Dean and the rest of the Democrat candidates is that Dean comes across as a true believer to the base but he will not appear threatening to folks in the middle. More than any other candidate in the field, he will be able to present himself as one who cares about people (doctor), who balances budgets (governor), and who appears well grounded while looking presidential. To be sure, he doesn’t look that way to the GOP base, but that has no bearing on the election, because they will never vote for him anyway. He can appeal to the middle and Republicans can ignore his candidacy at our peril. We are whistling past the graveyard if we think Howard Dean will be a pushover.

Howard Dean’s appeal is closer to Ronald Reagan’s than any other Democrat running today. Granted, that’s not saying much with this field, but there are similarities here. The Democrat party used to chuckle about Reagan and his gaffes which they believed would marginalize him to the far right dustbin of history. But when his opponents tried to attack him for some of his more outlandish statements, the folks in the middle simply ignored them. Voters in the middle looked to the bigger picture where they saw a man of conviction who cared about them and had solutions for their problems. Howard Dean has the potential to offer a similar type candidacy.
…
http://www.moore-info.com/Poll_Updates/2004%20Election%20%20Why%20Dean%20can%20win%20Sept%2003.htm
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/david_reinhard/index.ssf?/base/editorial/106829671744920.xml
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=709103

[Silverhair]

54. Yes, that is their thinking. And remember, their campaign

is going to be aimed at Joe Sixpack. They aren't going to worry about converting any DUers, because they can't.

[John_H]

55. Can't you see it's a very complex double reverse GOP strategy?

I know they almost always use the most obvious strategy possible--on the war, on their legislation, on Gore, on the Florida recount, on Wilson, etc, but this indirect strategy is just like the indirect strategy they used...uh...er...when...er...uh...Help me out Dean supporters.

[henslee]

56. Worry not, good friend... The Right is full of shit.... It's just a few

unimaginatve mouthpieces/media spewing a convictionless mantra "BRING DEAN ON" with no logic, sense or true sprit behind it. I hate to say it here (lest folks get complacent) but I suspect Republican turnout is going to be shit a year from now.

[deminflorida]

57. They've Jumped on Board the Smash Dean Crusade.....

too soon, it won't fly with the voters either. Dean is not going to fare as well in N.H. or Iowa now as everybody is predicting. That's just it isn't it - N.H. voters are hard to predict, always have been. They have the whole holiday season to watch Fox smash him up real good, you may think that it doesn't affect voting decisions but it does. The right has shown their hand too soon, they think Gore has sold Dean to the entire party and sewn up the nomination for him. They just couldn't wait to go after him, like a buch of wild dogs after a dead carcass. But, it was a tactical mistake on their part....

Look for a more moderate candidate without so many issues to survive the nomination process.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

59. It freaks me out more

that a lot of Dems on this board are more than willing to tear down our most popular candidate.

But then I remember that DU is not the real world. Nor is CNN or FOX.

[banana republican]

63. Remember

McGovern was nominated because RFK was shot. If he hadn't been killed he would have been elected.

[caledesi]

64. No, and I just got an email saying that the thugs are planning on

running a NYT smear article on Dean on Monday. Yeah, they really want to run again Dean. Sure.

[janx]

65. DO NOT FALL FOR THIS AND DO NOT FREAK.

The wingnuts are in full attack mode. The "Rove wants Dean" talking point is being published, broadcast, and electronically distributed like wildfire now, along with the fictional "split" within the Democratic party.

It's all part of the wingnut plan.

Incidentally, I have to give Terry McAuliffe some credit. He went up against this today on CNN and did his best to dispel the rumors.

[killbotfactory]

66. They thought invading Iraq was a good thing

I don't respect their opinions much.

[GreenPartyVoter]

68. I am hoping

that Dean will pull people from all sides to vote for him.

It'll take an awful lot to uproot the shrub.

[in_cog_ni_to]

72. I was "freaked" months ago

when I was watching CNN and the RW, WH, Kiss ass talking head, Tony Blankley was on defending Dean and saying NICE things about him. TRUST ME, Tony Blankley has never said a NICE thing about ANY Democrat. THAT was the beginning of the end of my support for Dean. I started seeing more and more RWers defending him and KNEW something was NOT right. Thank G-d Clark got in the race. Blankley is not the only RWer to defend Dean. I see and hear them doing it all the time. So, yes I am freaked by the RW embrace of Dean. That is one of the reasons I left his campaign and went to Clark's.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

74. The liberal "blinders" are on Defense and military

There is no way in hell middle of the road Americans are going to switch from Bush to Dean if defense is their no. 1 concern.

[leftchick]

78. exactly NYFM....

and we need those middle of the roaders BIG TIME!....

[rslag]

84. Yep!

Dean, the Angry-White-Man, will have way to much baggage going into the general election to win over the 2000 red states.

He's moved so far left, he left middle America behind.

Dean could take an anger management class from Jesse Jackson, and actually walk away with something learned.

[SOS]

75. The right-wingers

may think "if Dean's the candidate then Bush wins". But where are the votes? Gore won by half a million. Naders 3 million would go to Dean. Bush won't get any Muslim votes. The elderly are the most negative on Bush, he loses votes there. Dean is bringing in lots of young people. Disgust with Bush will up the Democratic turnout.
The economy in swing states like WV and OH is poor.
Some military votes, maybe not the soldiers, but their families, will go to Dean. So where is Shrub going to pick up the extra 5 million votes he needs?

[deacon]

80. it's rove's master strategy--don't fall for this crap

and most of all, fight against it.

no matter who we put up rove will sell that they can't beat bush.

the fact of the matter is, bush has not given one gore state a reason to support bush in 2004, and wv., pa., oh. and other states affected by the steel tariff he will lose.

rove wants to keep democrats home! he doesn't want them to gain any energy or momentum! he needs this on the minds of voters ("he can't beat bush")


turn rove off now!!

[cigarstore]

83. Howard Brush Dean will not be the nominee

Mark my words

[caledesi]

87. Mark my words. Howard Dean is THE nominee. You heard it here. eom

[SeveneightyWhoa]

99. LMAO.

If you say so, Gloria Borger!

[Northwind]

85. Not even a little

And you know why?

Because I am smarter than the conservatives.

[bitchkitty]

96. Oh, sure.

I'm absolutely terrified because the National Review tells me that's the plan.

Seriously, the "Rove wants Dean" bit is getting really freaking stale, you know? I wish you guys would try another one.

[Romberry]

105. Carter wanted Reagan.

See how well that worked out? Sure you do. STOP LETTING REPUBLICANS DICTATE TO DEMOCRATS! You play right into their hands.

"Oh dear! Whatever will they do to us! Oh dear! We must live in fear!"

Buy a copy of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals from Amazon or elsewhere. Read it. Learn it. Then try and understand why your fear is wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Polemonium]

106. I'm guessing you bought duct tape during the last terror alert

529,988 Americans have signed up to support Dean on his website. In just over 48 hours he raised over 500,000 from 6,934 supporters - an average of $78 (old school would have taken 500 supporters to reach this amount). Over 100,000 hand written letters have been sent to voters in Iowa and New Hampshire. 155,944 people have signed up for get togethers to support Dean. I personally have written ten letters, donated to the campaign, and got together with other Dean supporters in AUSTRALIA. Many of the other supporters I have met are getting involved in politics for the first time, and together we are figuring out how to raise funds to reach out to other Americans living abroad.

This scares you? A large group of people are begining to believe that they can not only get someone they like elected, but once elected we'll have the history to hold his feet to the fire if needed. Oh yeah, and he is listening to our ideas. There is reason to hope that Democracy could make a come back in our country, please don't be scared, be hopeful.