DU homepage: photo of burning flag is offensive

[wtmusic]

Does anyone else find the picture of the burning flag on DU's homepage offensive? I am 100% for the right to burn a flag; I also find it extremely offensive.

The flag is a symbol of our country. To me burning the flag says not that you are protesting the current administration; it says that you are protesting the Constitution and the rights that we enjoy to criticize and change this administration. IMO it IS unpatriotic, and plays into RW arguments that opponents to the BFEE are anti-American.

Have at me. </rant>

[movonne]

1. No!!!! I don't find it offensive....

[Bucky]

94. I find flag burning offensive. But this was a newsopinion article about it

I have heard of only one instance when an American burned a flag in a cause that I did not find the act totally childish and immature. It is the act of a pouty, juvenile mindset. Flag burners don't need to be arrested, they need to be put in the "time out corner" and scolded for the little ingrateful brats they are.

That said, I'm categorically opposed to any limitation on free speech. But if we're gonna talk about this controversy we obviously have to have the right to illustrate the articles we right.

[Goldmund]

2. No

I don't find it offensive.

On edit: it's not like the picture of a burning flag suggests you should burn the flag or that the flag should be burned. It's an appropriate picture to go with the article.

[Faygo Kid]

3. You are being had at. It is speech.

It is there to make a point. And, it obviously did so, to you. I am more concerned with the burning of the Constitution by this Administration. Symbols are speech. I revere the flag, for what it stands (stood) for. That's what it's all about.

[thebigidea]

4. I'm shocked! SHOCKED! Offended. And shocked some more. QUITE SHOCKED.

"and plays into RW arguments that opponents to the BFEE are anti-American."

they would spin eating waffles as a sign of blatant anti-Americanism. Why bother with them?

[RandomKoolzip]

12. Waffle-eating Alger Hiss-lover!

Seriously, this is a non-issue.

[theivoryqueen]

5. I think it's meant to be provocative and to elicit thoughtfulness

and perhaps even prompt some internal (and external) questioning...


looks like it worked!

[dennis4868]

6. Burning of the flag to me....

says that we are embarrassed to be americans because of the currect resident in the white house and what he is doing to thus world. Nothing wrong with the DU picture on the home page!

[Jerseycoa]

7. I don't, really

It's illustrating a story. I wouldn't want it to be a continuing home page graphic.

:dem:

[curse10]

8. No n/t

[JailBush]

9. Burning flags are beautiful.

A burning flag is the ultimate affirmation that we have the right to burn our national flag. Fire has long been a symbol of purity; the ancients honored the gods with burnt sacrifices. In this spirit, a flag that is burned - whether to protest a perceived wrong or to make sure we still have the right to protest - should feel honored.

I'm far more disgusted by photos depict the flag with George W. Bush.

[Catherine Vincent]

10. They renew the pic on the homepage every other day so it's no big deal.

But thank you for pointing this out for the dittoheads to go and print screen it and forward it to their hero Rush lardbutt.

[Rex]

11. Maybe it touched the ground

nt

[truthspeaker]

13. I don't support flag-burning

It's not a statement I want to make - I still love the US and the constitution; my beef is with the idiots who seized power in 2000.

But it's just a piece of cloth. What's to get offended about?

[Zero Gravitas]

14. Don't worry

there's plenty more where it came from (China).

[patdem]

15. I came, I saw, I went into discussion boards...No I did not feel offended

at all. I think wars were fought for the RIGHT to burn flags and not for the IMAGE of the flag, though the image was used to REPRESENT the USA. :shrug:

[DuctapeFatwa]

16. I believe everyone has the right not to burn the flag

But whenever I see one that is not in flames, I am nevertheless offended.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

17. You didn't read the article, did you?

n/t

[rucky]

24. It is a beautiful article written by a real patriot.

If your knee isn't jerking too hard, the offended party should give it a read.

[dpibel]

28. Startling, isn't it?

How can this be happening in such a literate group? (And I truly say that without irony.)

[Lars39]

18. Why do you assume that the flag in the picture is being abused?

What we might be seeing is a flag being properly disposed of.

[arcane1]

67. that's what I thought it was

some people look too hard to be offended

[Lars39]

76. I agree.

I wonder what the reaction would be if the second way that a flag can be retired were shown(burying)?

[Drifter]

19. It is also the proper way ...

to dispose of a disgraced flag. You know, one that has touched the ground, is ripped or has been attached to your car for the last 8 months.

Cheers
Drifter

[Sir_Shrek]

20. Yeah, I think it's offensive....

...but hey, there is no freedom from being offended, we all know that. If someone wants to do something like burn a flag or post a picture of burning a flag or be a proponent of burning the flag, that's fine.

One thing I think you hit on that makes a good point is the whole "playing into the RW arguments" bit. I'm of the belief that if you're going to do something controversial, and certainly flag burning falls into that category, you have to be ready to take the flack that comes with it. It probably does play into the RWs hand, but you're the one that dealt them that card, so don't complain.

[thebigidea]

23. why would we EVER complain about ANYTHING the RW does?

they are good and thoughtful, and in the right light - very handsome.

Oh, that dreamy John Ashcroft!

[Sir_Shrek]

35. I didn't say don't complain in general....

If you're going to go around doing controversial things, don't be surprised at the backlash, whether it's justified or not.

[Q]

21. I'm an American. Why would I be anti-myself?

- It's really disturbing that you and so many others seem concerned what the criminals in the WH think or say about us.

[RPG-7]

22. who gives a shit?

[liberalhistorian]

25. Okay, not to

"flame" (sorry, couldn't resist it, lol!) here, because I do see your point in a way. Flag burning, while not something I will ever find myself engaged in, does not, I believe, mean that those engaging in it are against the Constitution and are spitting on our nation's ideals. Quite the contrary.

It's meant as a symbol of what's gone wrong with the implementation of the nation's core principles enshrined in the Constitution, which gives us the right to burn the flag if a person so chooses, something the repukes simply refuse to understand. Most of the countries that have forbidden the "desecration" of their flags are fascist, communist, or dictatorships.

I don't consider it unpatriotic at all, and I deeply resent the implication that, because it doesn't offend me, I'm any less of a patriotic American than you are. I also resent, and I think most DUers do as well, being told what is "unpatriotic" and what isn't.

IMHO, the repuke wingnuts currently in charge are the ones who are unpatriotic, to say the least, and who are symbolically "burning the flag" every single damn day, from ASSkroft's stripping of civil rights and attempt to turn us into a police state, to Shrub's refusal to allow the media to film the caskets of dead soldiers returning from Iraq, his sealing and hiding of all kinds of records and documents, to lying about the reasons for war and causing us to preemptively attack another nation that wasn't a threat, for the first time in our history as a nation, etc., etc., etc., etc.

[KensPen]

26. I don't think there should be a law against it.....

though I might support someone giving the burner an ass kicking.

I think it's crazy when the wingnuts claim people die for the flag. The flag is just fabric.

that being said.....

I love this country and hate when people trash it.

Trash the government,
it's leaders
our policies
etc.

but I believe our country to be the greatest on Earth.

[thebigidea]

30. so, its not a good idea to die for a flag - but ok to beat someone over it

Ok, good to know where the line is.

[dpibel]

40. Really now

You're in favor of delivering an ass-kicking to a group of American Legion members, boy and girl scouts, and military cadets?

Why would you want to do that?

[thebigidea]

45. for FREEDOM.

[KensPen]

49. Call me crazy......

I am offended when I see someone burning a flag.

at the same time I see it as a right of free speech.

If I actually saw someone do it I would be highly offended and outraged.

If I was at a rally opposing Bush and his policies and a flag was burned, I would not feel that to be an appropriate symbol of my opposition.

and yes.....

when I heard the trade towers came down,
and there were reports of the muslim community in Paterson celebrating and burning the flag, I think I would have responded with violence if I was there....



Speaking of which, has that ever been proven to be an actual occurrance or is that myth?

[thebigidea]

52. hurray! Have yourself a Snickers bar, soldier - you're a REAL AMERICAN

ready to do violence at the drop of a hat when his flag is "dissed" and/or "maligned."

Ladies and gentlemen, the Punchy Patriot, MISTER FREEDOM!

BILLY: "Mister Freedom, help! Some sour-smelling Arabs are dancing around and yelling stuff about the Great Satan!"

MISTER FREEDOM: "Freedom of speech is for WHITE PEOPLE, Billy. Lets go show those darkies a lesson - American-style!"

BILLY: "Golly!"

[KensPen]

55. does that attack make you feel good?

isn't being civilized having urges and supressing them,
because you know they are wrong.

I was expressing my opinion,
which I assumed to be an unpopular, yet honest one here.

Not looking for medals or Kudos.

I don't like the notion of flag burning.
yet I support the right to do so.

[thebigidea]

57. so the urge to beat the shit out of someone, you shouldn't suppress that?

"I don't like the notion of flag burning.
yet I support the right to do so."

er? You support the right to do so? Then why did you want to do the violence thing? Must be some weird kind of support you have in mind.

"I support your right... to TASTE MY FIST!"

[KensPen]

60. So I guess

you've never been internally conflicted.

supported something because of a higher ideal.


I am not a fighter, I might have misspoke, expressing a reaction or urge in terms of an actual action.
whatever.

[thebigidea]

64. of course not, like John Ashcroft, I'm ALWAYS RIGHT

doubt? internal conflict? These are concepts foreign to me. I have only an Ashcroftian certitude and a fully clothed statue.

[dpibel]

53. Please read the article n/t

[Gringo]

27. It's an editorial photo

No different than a photo in the newspaper of some Nigerians burning it.

Doesn't equal "DU Burns the flag" Most of us here would NEVER do that.

[Leftist78]

29. Nope

not offensive in the least.

[Minstrel Boy]

31. Flag retirement

Bush autographs the flag. He wraps it around his criminal intent. He waves it like a club.

Perhaps the dishonours piled upon the flag are too great. Is it time it be retired?

The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
UNITED STATES CODE : TITLE 36 : CHAPTER 10 §176. Respect for flag : Flag Retirement

[Kolesar]

32. IOW, what sort of "Message" is Democratic Underground saying to America?

That image carries a lot of meaning, and at quick glance it "might" be misconstrued.
No, make that Will be misconstrued.
You raise a good point Wtmusic.

[EarlG]

33. Anyone who thinks that the photo is offensive

Hasn't bothered to read the article.

It is a picture of a flag being "retired." Read the article and you'll find out what it's all about.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/12/11_flags.html

[wtmusic]

37. I read the article

I don't think the photo is appropriate for the front page of DU, that's all, in the same way you wouldn't show the corpse of a slain soldier.

[greyl]

39. If that were true

you wouldn't have said this "To me burning the flag says not that you are protesting the current administration; it says that you are protesting the Constitution and the rights that we enjoy to criticize and change this administration. IMO it IS unpatriotic, and plays into RW arguments that opponents to the BFEE are anti-American."

I don't buy it, dude. But look, it's not that big of a deal - forgive yourself to posting to quickly.

[greyl]

47. Also, it's not analogous to showing a soldier's corpse,

it's analogous to showing a soldier's honorable funeral.

[wtmusic]

54. With the coffin wide open...

If DU ever displayed the flag as a symbol of patriotism it could be taken in context.

Prominently displayed as it is, it's just vulgar to anyone who regards the flag as a symbol.

Just a piece of cloth? Ask a vet. Democrats just might need some of those vet swing votes come next November.

[greyl]

68. oh piss. It's picture of an American ceremony

not a protest, not an act of disrespect like you initially said.

If it was a picture of the American flag hanging out of Rush Limbaugh's generously cysted and polyped ass, THEN it would be somewhat more analogous to a humiliating image of a soldier's corpse.

This picture of the burning flag is not a picture of the flag being demeaned, humiliated or devalued - simple as that.

[wtmusic]

73. I'm afraid wingnuts might think

a flag hanging out of Rush's ass might be patriotic--now we've truly come full circle!!

:silly:

[greyl]

77. That's a valid fear. :)

[liberalhistorian]

89. ROFLMAO!

I don't know what would be funnier, the sight of that or the fact that freeps might actually consider it to be "patriotic" according to their own warped definition of the word, which they insist on jamming down everyone else's throat.

[Kolesar]

41. I just read it too, and I stand by my previous post

And now I know what a satrap is:

satrap

\Sa"trap\ (? or ?; 277), n. van ruler: cf. F. satrape.] The governor of a province in ancient Persia; hence, a petty autocrat despot.

[Tinoire]

43. That's my vote for the next picture! Slain soldier, dead Iraqi child

A nice daily reminder of what we're fighting here.

[tkmorris]

72. Earl I understand that

The trouble is a new visitor may well never get that far. Just about anyone coming here for the first time has heard from both sides. He/she has heard that we are a wellspring of democratic ideas, and conversely he/she has heard from other that think we are a bunch of communist or anarchist loons.

Immediately upon clicking the link they face that picture and I am betting the majority make up their minds then and there which of those two categories we actually belong in. The wrong one.

You can stand on principle. I support that, I do it all the time. Be prepared to pay the price for it though, and in this case it seems rather without a point.

[jokerman93]

34. Have at you?

wtmusic --

:wtf:

did you even read the article that came with the photo?

FYI - for all the fragile people who are offended by flag burning.

It has long been a ceremony of respect to decommision a flag by burning it. I learned this as a boy scout more than 30 years ago. Flag burning is a non-issue.

Patriotism these days:

Don't know nothin'. See a pitchure of a burning flag. Make a pitchure in my mind. Have a kneejerk reaction to it. Be offended.

Back at ya!

[Maeve]

36. The picture and this thread encouraged me to read the article

Kudos to Max Black for the writing! :thumbsup:

[atreides1]

38. Not Offended At All

Your right it is symbol of our country, it represents freedom, equality, justice.

It also represents genocide, wanton murder, disregard for the freedom
of others, no respect for people of color, or those that do not worship a Christian deity.

Am I offended by a picture of it burning, no. There are more things in this country and the world that are more offensive to me.

Things like hunger, homelessness, child abuse, disregard for the elderly. These are the things that I find offensive

The flag is a symbol, but what it was supposed to symbolize is almost
dead. And as this administration continues the flag will symbolize nothing but corporate greed.

So if it burns it's just a symbol of what has happened to this nation.

[jokerman93]

51. Flag burning as a form of protest

I suspect those who do burn flags as a protest, are spiritually in accord with your perceptions atraides1.

Protest burning is a metaphorical decommisioning of a flag for the reason that the America it once represented is felt to be nearly defunct.

Burning the flag is to lay it to rest. Protest burning is a form of public lament rooted in the humanistic expression of compassion, grief, and political outrage. I applaud such public speech when performed responsibly and presented in context.

People who are offended by symbolic actions like this may also be at risk of believing in voodoo and other forms of sympathetic magic as politically dangerous; difficulty knowing the difference between theater and real life; tendency to miss all but the most superficial meanings of public discourse.

Pretty dangerous and stupid mindset for determining the parameters of free speech.

[stopbush]

42. Did you bother to read the article?

If not, what the hell's wrong with you?

[Maine-i-acs]

44. A tattered plastic flag on the window of a gas-sucking SUV is offensive.

And there's a lot of them where I live. Phony patriots all.

Bush autographing the flag is offensive.

Burning a worn flag is not offensive.
Protesting fascism is not offenisve either.

[bowens43]

46. No. I don't find it offensive.

[neebob]

48. It didn't bother me

even before I read the article.

Coincidentally, I was thinking about the flag before I saw that photo. I just happen to be home today because my car wouldn't even try to start this morning (I'm having the thing where everything breaks down at once). I just got back from a walk to the store, having passed a yard with a giant flagpole and thought it's long past time they replaced that ripped, faded, ratty flag. Seriously, it's about to disintegrate.

I knew there were some rules, but I didn't realize they retire flags by burning them. I found the article both timely and informative.

[Patriot_Spear]

50. This is America- where you're free to be offended...

I find a burning flag an uncomfortable image- but if I believe in the Constitution I must accept it as a form of Free Speech.

[Bertha Venation]

56. To burn it is to CELEBRATE, not protest, the Constitution.

I have a dream of burning one in Lafayette Park. Burning one on the Ellipse. Burning one at the VVM or the Lincoln Memorial. I celebrate the rights we're supposed to be guaranteed.

I would burn it not to protest the Constitution but the current denial of my civil rights under that document.

That the RW would not see the burning my way doesn't trouble me one bit -- why should I care what they think; they don't even think my rights are being violated.

[haele]

58. No - that's a proper way one disposes of a damaged flag.

Personally, I find pictures of Shrub, Cheney, Ashcroft, Lott, Delay, Falwell, Dobson, Limbaugh, et all surrounded by US flags far more offensive than this one - they're actually desecrating those flags by their jingoistic, preverse presence and use of them as propaganda.

Haele

[David__77]

59. The picture does not advocate burning the US flag.

Are you offended if news media shows a picture of a demonstration at which flags are burned? I think we should be aware of the context and meaning of the picture.

[creativelcro]

61. I don't find ANY picture offensive

[el_gato]

62. I don't believe in nationalism

and I don't believe in mindless flag waving

[Stuckinthebush]

63. No

My love of country is not wrapped up in a symbol.

Also, EarlG pointed out that this is a picture of the proper way to retire a flag. I see a lot of flags flapping off of SUVs by "patriotic" Americans that need to be retired.

[leesa]

65. Not offensive at all. It's just a symbol and it is quite accurate

if it represents the US to show it combusting since that is what our country is doing.

[dionysus]

66. You obviously didn't read the article

Which was about the author's attendance at the annual VFW retiring of old flags, which means burning them.

[Kolesar]

71. is there an echo in here?

posts 17, 33, 42, ... Y'all have made your point

You know, some people have a simple view of the world and will not see past the flames on Old Glory.

"Buncha Communists" "hate freedom"--we have to counter these messages.

[NoKingGeorge]

69. Yes very offensive.

Whatever the beliefs of some on this board, there are many who have sacrificed protecting the principles behind that symbol. Let's respect others with conviction.

[liberalhistorian]

90. And one of those principles, as

my uncle who served two tours of duty as a Marine in the front lines of Vietnam, likes to say, is extending freedom of speech, thought, and assembly to all citizens REGARDLESS OF WHAT THAT OPINION OR SPEECH MAY BE. That, to me, is the ultimate irony of people complaining about the offensiveness of flag burning because of the sacrifices that have been made to keep us free.

[LuminousX]

70. Offended? No. Did I have an emotional reaction to it? Yes.

That was the point though.

I support a person's right to burn the flag, his/her own flag on his/her own property. Burn a U.S. flag (or a copy of Hustler) on publice property, and I reserve the right to douse it with water.

The article that accompanied it put the picture with context.

[AnnabelLee]

74. I don't find it offensive

Neither does my husband, an Army veteran.

[dreissig]

75. What the Flag Represents

The flag represents our country, which is not sacred. At least I hope things haven't gotten to that point. This stuff about the heroic sacrifice of the Marines at Iwo Jima, etc. is beside the point. You might argue that these sacrifices are sacred, but our country is not. And neither is the flag.

"Desecrating" the flag suggests that the flag is more sacred than what it represents. That's nonsense.

[Nlighten1]

78. Not!

[otohara]

79. Oh For God's Sake!

we're not a fucking republicans -

[Dems Will Win]

80. It will backfire on DU when the Oxy-Moron (Rush) reports it to the nation

Please take it down ASAP. It can't possibly help to oust Bush in '04 if you think about it.

[chiburb]

81. At least now we know what picture Plaid Adder should use...

To get her next column read and a discussion going...

:-)

[Superfly]

82. Yes, I hate seeing that.

1) I hate seeing the flag being burned by anybody. (except for the approved method of flag disposal)
2) I will stop a person I see from burning a flag.

[Lars39]

85. The flag in the photo IS being burned in the approved manner.

[liberalhistorian]

91. And what right do you have to do that?

While you have every right to be angered and offended, you have no more right to stop someone from expressing themselves in that way than you do to stop any other kind of expression just because you don't like it.

[thebeaglehaslanded]

83. Shooting children is offensive.

Destruction of an symbol is an expression of free speech.

[Fixated]

84. But it's a symbol we should respect

I don't take this view, but it's certainly easy for someone to paint people here as un-American.

[MoonRiver]

86. I rarely go to the homepage (being linked to discussion boards) but,

our flag is, symbolically, burning. So, no, I don't find the picture offensive. I believe it to be representative of reality.

[LifeDuringWartime]

87. why does it matter?

it's only a piece of cloth. if somebody were burning an effigy of the constitution, i can understand being upset. i would be.

its a flag. some might say it looks pretty (i sure as hell wouldn't).

why the strange flag worship? (pledge of allegience, flags everywhere, etc)

[Cronus Protagonist]

88. Is it OK to burn the Statue of Liberty?

http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=122



Note: No actual flags were burnt in this portrayal, but the Statue of Liberty was actually burned by French people protesting the US foreign policy.

[Stuckinthebush]

96. I thought you meant the real one

But one in effigy? Sure.

[Kolesar]

92. I can see how a conservative Democrat would not fit in at DU

Or even moderate Democrats who have a strong connection to the flag--a connection that is a visceral gut-feeling that defies explanation.

[farmbo]

93. Why give the GOP "bullitin board" material?

Personally, it doesn't offend me, but its now going to show up-- again and again and again-- in RW diatribes about DU.

[Zomby Woof]

95. I like burning flags

On the 4th of July.

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. I'm British; should I be offended?

The article says a Union Jack was burned too; but the recommended way (in the Royal Navy at least) to dispose of it is 'torn up into small pieces and disposed of as rags'.

http://flagspot.net/flags/gb.html

Of course, I'm not offended. I am amazed that a Constitutional amendment is talked about, though: anyone who thinks bylaws belong in the document that gives the foundation of a country, needs a refresher in History, and probably English too.

[reachout]

98. Here's my thought

[JohnLocke]

99. Yes, but I think that the morons [flag burners, not DU] have a right