Dean says Republicans need to stop acting like the Pharisees....hypocrites

[madfloridian]

Quick definitions (Pharisee)

noun: a member of an ancient Jewish sect noted for strict obedience to Jewish traditions
noun: a self-righteous or sanctimonious person
MORE:
pharisee
noun
1 Pharisee a member of an ancient group of Jews, written about in the Bible, who believed in obeying religious laws very carefully and separated themselves from the ordinary people

2 DISAPPROVING a person who thinks they are very religious, but who does not care about others
(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

I still have the tape. He was talking with Judy Woodruff on Monday. She hushed up about religion.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/08/ip.00.html

SNIP..."WOODRUFF: At the same time, Governor, I'm sure you know the Republicans are already starting to talk about the fact that you -- I think by your own acknowledgment, left the Episcopal Church in some dispute over a bike path, and you switched to another denomination, the Congregationalist denomination.

They're asking what does this say about the depth of your commitment to your own faith?

DEAN: You know what it really says? It says the Republicans are talking like they're out of the Pharisees. Because if you're a Christian, you're a Christian. I don't believe it ought to matter what kind of a denomination you are.

As a matter of fact, if you're a religious person, you're a religious person. I don't think it ought to matter what religion you are.

So people who talk like that are what Jesus would call the Pharisees. And I think that's enough of that kind of stuff in the Republican Party. We are all in this together, whether you are a Christian, or a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu. And there's plenty of all to go around in this country.

[mzmolly]

1. Ha Ha good for Dean

:thumbsup:

[killbotfactory]

2. Hahaha!

Dean rocks!

[Kremer]

3. That's how a real President should answer!

Great answer by Dean!

[janx]

8. He does not appear to be afraid of the truth, that's certain.

.

[slinkerwink]

and it's one that bears repeating!

[janx]

32. The least we can do is to keep this thread kicked.

.

[slinkerwink]

58. I agree!

[janx]

61. kick

[coloradodem2005]

4. Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[janx]

5. I still can't believe he said that. Too good to be true!

!

[calimary]

77. Yeah, me, too. Pharisees they ARE.

He couldn't be more spot-on.

Might be nice to have someone with such clear-eyed judgment in the White House...

[janx]

100. We soon will, if we care enough to contribute.

I can't wait.

[slinkerwink]

6. that's awesome!

:bounce: GO DEAN! :bounce:

[janx]

10. From later in the same interview...

WOODRUFF: ... in that interview on Fox, but just to be clear in when you went to the draft board, did they make the decision based on your medical records or on their own separate medical assessment?

DEAN: I have no way of knowing that. We asked for our the draft files a long time ago, anticipating interest in questions like this from interested parties. And all we know - all I know is I went down there, I had my draft physical along with about 250 other guys of all sizes and colors, and I went through the physical and about three, four, five weeks later I got a letter saying I was deferred except in case of a national emergency.

WOODRUFF: And you don't know -- the fact that you were able to bring in your own private medical doctor's assessment...

DEAN: Everybody brings in their own records. If you have a record you bring it in. And I don't -- you know, I was not privy to the decisions so I have no idea how they made the decision.

WOODRUFF: Let me quickly quote a comment from the man who was the director of selective service in 1970, Curtis Tar (ph). He said, quote, "It's one of the real inequities left in the system because young men from wealthier family," which you were, "could afford to pay for test that might uncover some deferrable medical condition." And other people couldn't.

DEAN: Yes, of course, that has no application to my situation whatsoever. I had an injury four years earlier which is how I knew I had a bad back in the first place. I had a bad back and couldn't run track, that's how the pain developed.

And I had went to the doctor like most people would, whether they're wealthy or whether they're middle class or even poor folks can see a doctor if they need to, if they have a serious problem unless they have no insurance, which I intend to fix if I become president of the United States.

WOODRUFF: Do you feel any guilt at all today, Governor, about not having served when so many others went?

DEAN: No. I took my physical. I told the truth, they chose not to take me. That's what happened.

WOODRUFF: So the fact that there were other young men who didn't have the ability to get good medical care and get medical tests doesn't -- there's not an inequity there that bothers you... DEAN: Judy, I was a high school junior, senior, I had a back pain, I went to the doctor, the doctor told me had I had a congenital problem in my back. Four years later I went to the draft physical, they told me I couldn't serve. I don't know what else I can tell you.

WOODRUFF: But we know today there were people who went to Vietnam who had back pain.

DEAN: So your argument is that I could have lied to the draft board and gotten in.

WOODRUFF: No, I'm -- no. That's not what I'm -- I'm just asking if you have any twinge of any feeling about it.

DEAN: I have a lot of twinge about the terrible policy that sent our young people to Vietnam for an exercise that turned out not to be justified, as we're doing right now in Iraq. Yes, I have twinges about that.

He couldn't resist TWINGE.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. My husband isn't rich, and he was deferred

for a congenital heart condition. He didn't have money (his father died when he was 14, and his mom went back to work to try and make ends meet), but he had a family doctor who sent a letter along with him to the draft board. I see nothing different in what happened to Dean-both of them knew they had a problem, and both got doctors to write up papers that told the draft board about it.

[janx]

14. My brother was deferred for flat feet. My husband was deferred

because of asthma.

A lot of guys were deferred.

[Khephra]

17. Brilliant answer!

DEAN: So your argument is that I could have lied to the draft board and gotten in.

:toast: to Dean for not taking crap from Judy.

[janx]

22. I know, khep. The guy is so completely matter-of fact!

It's so funny.

[ozone_man]

24. That's a great interview.

I never really know about Judy Woodruff (persistent), but Dean was great and a perfect answer at the end. I guess that's what I like about Dean.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

35. Sorry I missed that

great responses from Dean.

DEAN: So your argument is that I could have lied to the draft board and gotten in.

LOL.

[janx]

47. Yeah, he cut to the chase on that one.

So incredibly funny!

[Cocoa]

41. I like how he handles this

Dean is good with the whores, he's not as good as Clark, but he's good. :-)

[truthspeaker]

83. when is Woodruff going to ask Bush about HIS military service?

rhetorical question, obviously

[janx]

85. Perhaps Dean will,

eventually.

[janx]

7. I wish I could see him do this debating Chimpy.

It's about time somebody called a spade a spade!

[arewethereyet]

9. this called for a two sentence answer

and he screwed the pooch

[janx]

15. Care to elaborate?

?

[arewethereyet]

21. I remain commited to Christs teachings. What commitment did you mean ?

two sentences, question answered fully with no retort. The rest of what he said was scrambling because he could not think of a proper answer.

How do you suppose he'll do conversing with world leaders who DO know how to be statesmen ? He choked against Judy Woodruff. Tony Blair will have him rejoining the Commonwealth.

[janx]

25. I don't think it was scrambling. I think it was succinct.

WWJD?

He didn't jive very well with the Pharisees either.

Why would you have Dean answer that way? To appease the Pharisees?

[arewethereyet]

30. its honest and succinct and points the hypocrit arrow where it belongs

seems like a good plan to me

[ldf]

112. to me your answer

sounds like a non-answer, and avoidance, if anything.

[arewethereyet]

113. hardly, and here's why

Judy's purpose with the question was to use what she believed to be a hot topic personal ethics goad to get Dean angry and back on his heels. She believed that this somehow represented changing teams and that was the justification for asking.

Well, to repel an attack to first find the root of it and expose it's falicy. Both denominations are Christian churches, you worship Christ in each and all Christian are welcome in a Christian church.

The statement succintly makes this point and has the added benefit of exposing the asker for the obviously transparant question thereby putting them back on their heels and gaining or regaining control of the interview.

In sted he got angry as anticipated, realized that he can't be angry when discussing relgion and starts groping for something to say to get out of the situation.

Score it a knock out for Woodruff, minimum of a T-OK.

To address your two points, it is the best answer because it re-frames the question to the proper Christian view and once done, there was never anything to avoid. Judy had you off balance and on your heels too. Without even knowing you were there.

[madfloridian]

26. What is your denomination? Which version of his teachings?

The Southern Baptist version? The Methodist version? The pentecostal version.

Your statement sounds very righteous to me, like you think your God is better than my God or Dean's God?

Are you judging us? Do we meet your criteria?

On Edit:
What Janx said about what you said makes sense, that you were suggesting. Sorry about that. Trouble is they are so righteous that is you are a Democrat you can't measure up.

[janx]

29. I think arewethereyet means that those were sentences

that Dean should have said.

Why s/he thinks so is beyond me.

[madfloridian]

34. That's what I mean. There are too many versions.

I like what Dean said.

[arewethereyet]

40. there were sentences that did not speak to the question

and therefore made him appear to be caught in the headlights. he might have said many things but what he chose to say did not put him is the best light.

but that was sort of close Janx, thanx

[arewethereyet]

37. I'm Episcopalian and there are no "versions"

there is only scripture. I thought I was very clear about drawing the focus of both denominations,and the others you mention as well, which is Jesus Christ. The question was intended to show him to be un-committed, this was a way to make Judy aware of the focus of all Christian's commitment. Has nothing to do with non-Christians because Judy was saying nothing about non-Christians.

I judge noone, ever.

The point is that Dr Dean does not conduct himself well when pressured.

[janx]

42. "drawing the focus of both denominations..."

I don't understand what you mean here. I mean this sincerely.

[arewethereyet]

50. they are both Christian denominations (unless I'm way wrong)

so the focus of any Christian denomination is Jesus Christ. Judy wanted to make it see that if you went from one Christian denomination to another it was an abanonment of some sort.

Its not.

Any Christian is welcome to worship at ANY other Christian church irrespective of who'sname is on the door.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

[janx]

51. Thanks for clarifying.

I understand what you meant now.

[arewethereyet]

56. great, and you're most certainly welcome.

n/t

[madfloridian]

43. Yes, he most certainly does.

And I most thoroughly disagree with on the interpretations of the scripture.

The Pharisees were in their mind very religious and very good...yes it has to do with religion.

[arewethereyet]

55. I propose we agree to disagree on these points

and come out shaking hands.

they represent opinion and we're both entitled to our own.

Agreed ?

[madfloridian]

60. Agreed.

I am open-minded because we just left the Southern Baptist Church where I grew up. They are so intolerant and close-minded, and they call Iraq a Holy War.

We were called unpatriotic.

I know how they can be, and this is the type of Christian or religious person Dean was referring. Whited sepulchres, they are.

[arewethereyet]

65. kinda sad whats become of that group

onward and upward !

[janx]

66. madfloridian, are you serious?

They called it a Holy War? I'm wondering now just how widespread that kind of thing is...

[arewethereyet]

67. among those sorts, its de facto

bordering (if not totally predicated) on Revelation related Anti-Christ imagry.

but they were doing the same thing with the Ayatollah, Clinton, the wall that killed Earnhardt, what have you.

its a good way to fill the plates if you take my meaning.

[janx]

68. Yes, I take your meaning.

;-)

Yet how awful! Church is where people are supposed to go for spiritual comfort, not fear. Promoting such an ignorant idea is both terrible and dangerous.

But corruption can find its way into churches, too.

[truthspeaker]

87. you're just noticing that???

There are a LOT of corrupt churches in America. Check out Assemblies of God, Church of Christ (not to be confused with United Church of Christ), and Ashcroft's Pentacostals. The Religious Reich is a powerful force, one which liberal and moderate Christians have been ignoring for too long.

Remember General Boynkin comparing Islam to Satanism?

[janx]

90. No, I'm not just noticing that--and grew up Congregationalist

for some years, so I know UCC well.

But I am a little taken aback at the blatent politics when it comes to Chimpy and this war, all for more bills in the collection plate.

After what madfloridian said about the Baptist experience there, I'm firmly convinced that this situation is totally out of control.

[truthspeaker]

94. UCC are the good guys

CofC are the nutjobs, just to clarify. I know a girl on internet infidels who was raised CoC. She was not allowed to go to swim class in school because they had "mixed swimming" - boys and girls, in swimsuits, in the same pool. When she turned 18 she was given two options: go to Bible college or get married. When she moved out on her own her parents tried to have her committed.

[janx]

96. "internet infidels" ??

What on earth is that?

[truthspeaker]

99. my favorite web site

main site: www.infidels.org

discussion board: www.iidb.org
my handle there is Godless Dave

[janx]

101. You crack me up...

!

[madfloridian]

69. Take a look at this thread in LBN....see my posts.

There is a perfect example of a Pharisee. The heads of this wonderful church took it over bit by bit. I linked to some articles there.

[janx]

73. Thanks, MF. I'll check it out.

I don't like the sound of this at all.

[madfloridian]

75. It was moved to GD from LBN.

Good luck on finding it. :evilgrin:

[janx]

80. Yikes.

I'll try anyway though...

[madfloridian]

82. I also think of another term in association with these guys.

They are as "whited sepulchres".

[janx]

84. Glad to see this PHARISEES topic kicked up again this morning...

We should never let it die.

[SharonAnn]

70. Like the Christian's my mother used to describe

"They'd leave their dying mother's bedside so that they didn't miss church on Sunday."

[janx]

107. We have hope now, regarless of religion.

And Dean is a religious guy.

[janx]

45. Ah, BUT--

There are people in the United States who aren't Christians. He is running for president, and he respects that.

It's clear to me that he's pretty sick of intolerance regarding religion, and I am too.

[arewethereyet]

54. no problem wit that at all

but Judy was trying to make him look like a quitter over some snitty little thing, she was in no way making a religeous point. what better way to highlight her assenine question than to point out that both churchs are essentially the same ? then if she is foolish enough to try a followup, he might have THEN taken the opportunity to move the conversation back to a political one and get into seperation of chuch & state, tolerance, etc.

its not the general principles at issue, its the image you present to the world. do you have poise and tact or do you blurt out the only thing that comes to mind.

he could have done better.

[janx]

59. Somebody had to say it. It was just waiting to be said publicly.

People in this thread, including me, have said as much before themselves.

He's not afraid to say it.

[arewethereyet]

64. and good for him for doing it

I just wish he could have done it effectively, without the defensive stance and the strike back attitude.

Its not just what you say, its how you say it that makes impressions on people.

[calimary]

78. Might do well to point that question toward bush, who claims

I believe to have been a Methodist, yet he refused even to see the head of the Methodist Church when the fellow wanted to lobby against the war. Bush apparently feels more comfortable hanging with the hardcore Southern Baptists - so what would Judy Woodruff have to say about THAT?

Dean ROCKS! I am SO proud of him, especially to bring up the word Pharisees - which is exactly what those sanctimonious, holier-than-thous in the republi-CON party are.

The good doctor can certainly diagnose things...

[cally]

11. I love that comment

I've referred to them as Pharisees myself.

[janx]

12. So have I! So have many people, I suspect.

!

[xray s]

16. The second paragraph plays right into the Republicans hands

First, let me say that a person's religious faith should be a private matter in this country. It should never be a qualifier for public office. I resent that Woodruff would ask Dean a question like that. It just goes to show how much the Right controls the agenda in this country. It was a rude question and Dean should have told her exactly that.

I think the Republicans are injecting religion into the race because they are concerned Dean is making headway with their base. That is good. He has them on the run.

His answer starts out great, and ends great, but the part in the middle reinforces the question of his committment to Christianity. A Christian would not believe "if you're a religious person, you're a religious person. I don't think it ought to matter what religion you are." I am not saying those comments are wrong. I am just saying they are contrary to the Christian faith.

In that regard, Dean's comments lend themself to Republican mischief.

[madfloridian]

19. Will you stop letting the GOP define you? Think for yourself.

My goodness, we are all so worried here about what the Republicans think. They do not intend to vote for us anyway.

[janx]

20. Yes. It's better for us to make the definitions--esp. Pharisees!

That's one of the best Dean answers I've seen so far. Magnificent.

[xray s]

23. No they won't vote for us

40% of the population votes GOP. 40% of the population votes Dem. As polarized as we are right now, no one is going to swing a hard core supporter either way.

The battle will be for the 20% in the middle. It is VERY important to understand how Republicans will think in trying to get the middle to vote their way. Qnd what motivates their base.

[madfloridian]

27. You sound very scared of them.

So were all our candidates in 2000 and 2002, and most of them lost.

[janx]

31. Skeered, skeered, skeered of Rove and the

Pharisees!
:scared: :scared::scared:
:scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:


:scared: :scared:


:scared:

[xray s]

36. DAMN RIGHT I AM SCARED

I have a 17 year old son and I do not want him to go off and fight in any Bush wars for oil.

So I want to make sure we WIN next year.

[janx]

38. Is this supposed to make me feel guilty?

?

If it's any consolation, I have a son who is 22 and would probably get drafted before yours...but I'm not going to get into a conversation about that.

You have nothing to fear. We'll kick the Chimp out.

[madfloridian]

39. Then you need someone who gets right back at Bush.

Our party has tried talking nice and compromising, and it has not worked at all. We are now in Iraq, and the Democrats could have stopped it.

[janx]

33. But the middle, by and large, is not made up of Pharisees.

The middle doesn't think that way.

[Melinda]

46. "40% of the population votes GOP"?

What actual percentage of those registered to vote did so in 2000?

Just the middle? I think there are others as well. :)

What's the actual percentage of those eligible to vote, but who remain unregistered?

What's the actual percentage of those who are going to vote in 2004 for the first time?


*Oops. :) On edit - :yourock: Dr. Dean. :loveya:

[Cocoa]

48. It doesn't even matter

they're going to find a way to say what they want to say about Dean, even if they have to make shit up.

Dean should be concerned with hitting back, like he just did.

[janx]

49. And they WILL make shit up.

It's the only way they know. But it's not going to work this time.

[madfloridian]

57. You are right. I fear they would attack any candidate equally.

It is what they do. They do it well. They have had years of practice and lots of instilled hatred. Nice will not work.

[janx]

72. It's not only what is nice and what is not--

It's what is right for our country and our heritage. It's time that someone stood up for that. It reminds me of

"Dude, Where's My Country?"

although that title isn't important enough.

So many of us don't recognize what is happening as anything we knew as our own country or culture.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. I hope the right pays you well for the space they rent in your brain

Dean is correct. Even people in the middle can recognize the truth when SOMEONE HAS THE GUTS TO SAY IT TO THEM. Surely you are not saying that the whole middle of the voter base are fundy christians!

[dsc]

74. that is baldly false

That statement may not lend itself to some or even most Christian faiths but there are others that it does lend itself to. There are several Christian faiths that hold that being faithful in other religions is equal to being faithful in Christianity. Universalists to name one. Don't presume to speak for all Christians.

[Spirochete]

18. WOODRUFF: Do you feel any guilt at all today, Governor, about not having

served when so many others went?

Dean: Of course. There isn't a day goes by when I don't wish I'd weaseled my way into the National Guard and then deserted for the last year or two of my contract...

[madfloridian]

28. Excellent.

:evilgrin:

[Selwynn]

53. Now THAT was awesome :)

[spooky3]

102. why is there ANY wonder that he's fired up so much of the base?

He may stumble sometimes and have other imperfections, but boy, someone on his staff and he have really worked out the right responses to these stupid and biased inquiries.

[Cocoa]

44. I love how Judy says "the Republicans"

if she were being truthful, she should have used the first person.

I hope Dean uses this Pharisee line every single time religion comes up, it's awesome. :-)

[Eric J in MN]

52. Good point. People being interviewed shouldn't stand for

Good point. People being interviewed shouldn't stand for anonymous accusations supposedly coming from "critics" or "Republicans" or whomever. If the reporter can't name anyone, it's just the reporter speaking for himself or herself.

[janx]

62. He will probably have opportunities to say so, if he wants to.

They're going to come after him about civil unions, etc. to please their Pharisee base.

[slinkerwink]

81. yep

[slinkerwink]

71. me too!

[spooky3]

92. You're right! All the candidates should feel free to ask for citations

before feeling obliged to respond to what "they" say.

But I like his answer to this a lot.

[roguevalley]

76. GO DEAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[slinkerwink]

79. heh.....

:yourock:

[Military Brat]

86. And the anger thing? Then what about Jesus in the temple?

Dean is perfectly within his rights to inform his detractors that anger in the right time and place, accompanied by the right actions, is an honest person's normal and justified reaction. Had it not been for Jesus driving out the money-changers in the temple (like the profiteering in the Whitewash House, eh?) then Jesus would have been derelict in his God-given duty to the people.

Not saying that Dean has a mission from God, but I guess we all do, in a way, to drive the war-profiteering money-changers from our temple of government.

Can I hear an amen?

:evilgrin:

[janx]

104. Hell yes! AMEN!

:smoke:

[Q]

88. Woodruff is a RWing shill asking inappropriate questions...

...of candidate. There is no requirement to have ANY religion to become president. Judy sounds as if she's giving a 'religious test' to the candidates and using their religion or lack thereof against them.

- Have Americans become so brain-dead that they don't resent a question like this coming from what's suppose to be a 'neutral' journalist?

[spooky3]

89. Good for Dr. Dean. He's right on target.

[adadem]

91. Yeah Dean

Great response...good job. Would have loved to see that Judy smirk!

[tom_paine]

93. Way to go, Howard!

You call those bastards bastards!

And keep it up!

[Romberry]

95. Just another example of why I am a Deanocrat!

Go Doctor, Go!

[madfloridian]

97. Mistakes of the Pharisees.....great webpage.

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0206/page5.html

I am very impressed with this page. Since I have worked to "save" the state library here, I appreciate the one about taking away the key to knowledge.

I think that is what they are trying to do. It is called the "dumbing down of America", and the testing is just the beginning.

There are links on this page to these topics:
In Luke 11, Jesus confronted the Pharisees with several deficiencies of their religion. Let's see what their faults tell us not only about the Pharisees but also about ourselves.


They Settled For Looking Good
They Made Much Of Little
They Loved The Approval Of Others
They Practiced Coverup Rather Than Disclosure
They Added To Life's Burdens
They Deceived Themselves
They Took Away The Key Of Knowledge
They Made Converts To Hell

[janx]

105. This is great, madfloridian.

A fine, close analogy!

[slinkerwink]

106. yep, that's what the repubs are

[slinkerwink]

98. kick

[slinkerwink]

103. kick

[w4rma]

108. An exactly accurate reponse! (n/t)

[DinahMoeHum]

109. Amen, Brother Howard Dean !!

He must have taken some cues from Bill Clinton and The Washington Monthly magazine in that he realizes that "...in order to win in '04, the (Democrat) nominee needs to get religion..."


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0306.sullivan.html


:kick:

[janx]

110. Now might be a time to investigate who Judas was...

seems appropriate!

[janx]

111. one more kick..

!