The Ragin' Cagun weighs in on Dean.

[chaska]

"The Democratic strategist openly boasted that the Vermont Democrat's
presidential bid was doomed, recounting a conversation he had with one top Dean aide.
"I told Steve McMahon, the media guy for Dean, who was on 'Crossfire': You have one of the three most influential presidential campaigns of my lifetime. That's the good news. The bad news is the other two are McGovern and Goldwater.""


I know it's hard for Dean supporters to accept that pointing out articles and statements that reflect badly on Dean's chances aren't done out of pure malice. But I assure you all that the vast majority of us do this out of a sincere belief that Dean will lose if nominated for the presidency.

I understand the natural inclination to bristle when such things are presented. The kindest thing I can do is to not reciprocate. However, it is my duty as a Democrat to point out when I think the party is considering committing to a disastrous course.

For those of you who are open to it.... For those who are not, you have my apology.

[quinnox]

1. Uh Oh

Now no doubt Carville will be cast as the enemy, and a Rove agent by overzealous followers of you-know-who.

[Don Claybrook]

3. No, I don't think he's working for Rove

I think he's whoring for the DLC. Unless, of course, he's still busy whoring for the corporate interests in Venezuela.

[bearfartinthewoods]

57. well, we could argue about whether he is a whore

if you use whore to describe people who get paid for what they do...

the issue should be is he a smart, experienced dem opperative who's input we should consider?

[xJlM]

5. Of course

Is there any doubt about that? Spinning and justifying seem to be their stock in trade.

[Don Claybrook]

2. How disingenuous of him

Isn't Carville the one always telling Democrats to speak up, to get a spine, to tell the blatant truth, and so on?

If this is an accurate portrayal of his words, I'll go with his earlier body of advice, thanks.

[bpilgrim]

15. that's him alright...

i thought he was gonna congratulate him on his successful campaign and for applying the strategies advocated by himself but sadly he apparently buys into the vrwc meme :shrug:

peace

[OBrien]

4. I agree 100%

Living in Houston with a population from all over the country, many Republicans I have talked to seem quite interested in Clark. Dean has no appeal to them. We might as well give it up if Dean is nominated.

[Don Claybrook]

13. You may even want to give up on Clark

I mean, I'd fight for either of them if I still lived in Houston. But you're asking us to field a candidate who will appeal to the same people (Sugarland, Houston, whatever) who keep sending Tom DeLay back to Congress every freaking 2 years. These are not people with rational minds. You have your task cut out for you.

And there's a chance, an outside chance, that Dean might just win Texas anyway.

[OBrien]

19. I live inside the Loop

Not in burb. my Congresswomen is Sheila Jacksom Lee. The newly elected Mayor is a Democrat. We are not all "irrational"

[dave29]

64. Your congresswoman

endorsed Dean

FYI

[OKNancy]

30. It's good to be optimistic, but come on

I think it's pretty remote that anyone, especially Dean, will win Texas.

[OBrien]

36. People from Houston have families all over...

the country. If they are interested in Clark, it's a pretty good chance there are plenty more out there.

[TexasPatriot]

39. HEY

no fair

just because we're in texas doesn't mean we're a lost cause

We may not be rational, but at least we're rational about what we can do about it. Afterall, our votes might not count for much, but we can vote with our money - and that sure as hell does.

We're not all marching in lockstep with Tom. As an example, I'd direct you to the fort bend star, and http://www.brazosriver.com/franken.htm

[Don Claybrook]

46. I used to live in Atascocita

I know not everyone is irrational, and I'm not trying to slam the entire population. But you do have a real uphill battle. And again, I'll stress that I think it's slightly possible that Dean could win Texas. He probably won't, but it's worth fighting for. Just as Clark would be worth fighting for if he picked up the nomination. Either way, it would be exceedingly difficult, but worth the fight.

[Blue_Roses]

105. I'm not trying to see this as the glass is half empty, just

looking at the reality of Dean or any Dem winning Texas. I just moved from Texas after living there for 10 years and there is no way Dean or any other Democrat will win Texas.


This was taken out of LBN--

Perry: `Texas is Bush country'

AUSTIN -- President Bush, his job approval marks slipping but still strong in his home state, officially became a candidate Wednesday in the March 9 Texas Republican primary.

Gov. Rick Perry, flanked by other GOP officeholders, filed the necessary paperwork at Texas Republican headquarters. He predicted a close presidential race next year but said Bush, his predecessor as governor, will run strong in Texas.

"Texas is Bush country, and you can bet it's going to stay that way in 2004," Perry said.

Bush's filing came one day after a new Scripps Howard Texas Poll indicated that the president's job approval rating in Texas has fallen 7 percentage points since August and 13 percentage points since June.

source: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2286433

[rumguy]

58. Losing attitude

Listen to yourself man - you want to lose - saying crap like we don't want their votes anyway!

[Don Claybrook]

62. You didn't read my post very carefully

Try again.

[rumguy]

74. go to clark04.com

it will help.

[Quahog]

73. We need Lieberman

Yeah, Lieberman would win TX. If TX is the prize, Joe's our man. He's the only Dem that's enough like a rethug to capture the long stare state.

[Mountainman]

Just for a test I ask myself why doesn't Dean appeal to me

I don't know why and I am a Dem. How will independents and Repubs react to him?

Dean just does not have the charisma to carry a nation and I can't seem to get a vision of him as President. I have tried, believe me. When I see him on TV I try to picture him as President but nothing comes to me.

I feel like a used car salesman is talking me to when I listen to Dean.
That "you have the power" thing just turns me off!

I had similar feelings about Gore. I knew that a lot of people just wouldn't like him as a person and many people vote on that basis.

I am very afraid that Dean will get the nomination and we will lose to Bush again.

I am not speaking as a supporter for other candidates other than I think Clark would get more Independent and Repub votes than Dean would and I dread the day when I will have to say that "if only Clark had been the nominee instead of Dean."

[adadem]

31. OMG

I never thought of used car salesman....hit the nail on the head.

[bearfartinthewoods]

63. i'm torn between used car and insurnce salesman

and have been since day one...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. Yes, that's been my impression, too

He does not appeal to me on a gut level, and I was trying to figure out exactly why, since so many people I respect support him, but you've put your finger on it. There's just something slick and corporate and...suburban...about him.

I'll vote for him if he's nominated, but I will not be enthusiastic.

If he's elected, he will be another Bill Clinton, and I'm referring to the negative aspects of Clinton's time in office: lack of a coherent vision, willingness to cave in when confronted by the Republicans, and too much solicitude for corporate interests.

[OBrien]

32. we NEED the swing voters

and I think Houston is really a good cross-section of the country. Clark would be an easy alternative to Bush who, you may find surprising, is not all that loved here.

[Demobrat]

26. Clark was fired from the Army for wanting to attack Russia.

Now, I know that Clarkies can spin that until they screw themselves into the ground, but you don't think Rove would have a field day with the "unstable" general? And unfortunately, the "unstable" general doesn't have the troops on the ground to counteract. If Clark is nominated, we're doomed.

[Loonman]

38. No, there is no spin

His actions in Pristina were totally justified.

[Demobrat]

93. Rove's got $200 million that says otherwise.

Clark's got nothing to fight back with.

[virtualobserver]

41. Clark's opening contradictory statements scared me off.....

In less than 24 hours he stated that he would probably have voted for IWR, then that he never would have.

That AD from the Bush campaign is already written. It totally undercuts his ability to criticize Bush on IRAQ.

[Demobrat]

99. I can see it now.

The tried and true commander-in-chief vs. the psycho soldier who's never held elected office before. Shoot, those spots write themselves.

[retyred]

106. Being a Clark supporter

I would like to see a link that says, what happened at Pristina airport caused Clark to be fired as you claim.

Also I would like to understand how attempting to follow orders makes the General unstable, unless of course you consider pissing off the Russians as being unstable.

*********

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/671495.stm

''I called the Secretary General and told him what the circumstances were,'' General Clark tells the BBC programme Moral Combat: Nato at War.

''He talked about what the risks were and what might happen if the Russian's got there first, and he said: 'Of course you have to get to the airport'.

''I said: 'Do you consider I have the authority to do so?' He said: 'Of course you do, you have transfer of authority'.''

But General Clark's plan was blocked by General Sir Mike Jackson, K-For's British commander.

"I'm not going to start the Third World War for you," he reportedly told General Clark during one heated exchange.

*******************

So the claim that this action would have started WW3 was evident by what? a statement by General Sir Mike Jackson, K-For's British commander saying it would have?

By Jacksons own account, that statement was his own assumption with no basis of fact that it would have: General Jackson tells the BBC: ''We were a possibility....of confrontation with the Russian contingent which seemed to me probably not the right way to start off a relationship with Russians who were going to become part of my command.''

************

Now you can spin it any way you choose but, a possibility....of confrontation with the Russian contingent does not equate to WW3 nor does it equate to wanting to attack Russia.


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[Stuckinthebush]

6. Fine

But you will support Dean if he gets the nomination...right?

[Rowdyboy]

7. James is a master of the backhanded compliment

Whatever else you say about him, he is attuned to politics and, right or wrong, he speaks his mind unapologetically.

[mrgorth]

8. One sentence

You take out of that statement that he doesn't support Dean? Ludicrous. I'll tell you why we're going to lose next year. Because the rest of you can't stop ripping into the other candidates. I now have no hope of any of our people winning next year, thanks to you all, even though ALL of our people are light years better than Bush. Thank you very, very much.

[DinahMoeHum]

9. Do you have a link on this?

n/t

:kick:

[HFishbine]

55. Apparently not

........

[bushisanidiot]

10. So The Idea Is That Whomever Runs Away with the Dem Nomination

is doomed to W. But someone else, who get's maybe half as many votes has a better chance of beating the dimwit. hmmmm... i'm not following that at all.

Dean has energized the democratic party. He has brought people out who have NEVER participated in a campaign before. I"m not talking about just a few people.. i'm talking about thousands. He's got "it" and I think Carville knows it. If anything, Carville is playing chess with Rove.

[LuminousX]

11. Carville has a right to his opinion

I'm just really curious if people think that suddenly all of Dean's supporters are just going to abandon him over something like this.

What do you want me to do? Vote against my gut? You are trying to tell me that your gut has better instincts than my gut? At the end of the day, I have to cast the vote that means something to me. I don't like Clark - why should I vote for him? I'm disenchanted with Kerry - why should I vote for him? I have fundamental disagreements with Kucinich - why should I vote for him?

I support Dean. I know Dean can win. So do all the other people who have been giving money to him, campaigning for him, and getting ulcers debating his critics. Carville can't change that.

How do you expect another candidate to garner the support Dean has? Do you really think the primary system is flawed and we will nominate someone no one wants to vote for?

edit: adding another comment

[RogueTrooper]

12. Well

Seeing as this is a Clark attack on Dean:

Personally, I learned my lesson, about supporting candidates with no political experience, after the Florida gubernatorial election. I liked Bill McBride and felt he could do the business against Bush. His resume was excellent and his performances were good. He lacked the experience to effectively lead his campaign against Bush. He was soundly beaten. I link Wesley Clark, and think he has a lot of things to say. He will go the same way as Bill McBride.

However, on the matter of Dean's candidacy. I would say that it reminds me more of The British Labour Party and 1997 than it does either Goldwater or McGovern. The language the Dean campaign uses, and the way it uses language, is reminiscent of Blair. The grassroots support is similar ( but more extensive ) to the way the Labour party pre-1997 recruitment strategy.

The Labour Party won by the largest landslide in British political history.

[Kosmos Mariner]

78. McBride = Clark???

Come on, that is a weak comparison. McBride is not even in the same league. I liked the guy, but he never had a chance. Completely different candidate.


:dem:

[RogueTrooper]

80. Same lack of experience

same reliance on biography. McBride's outstanding military record was touted as his firewall against Bush smearing.


His biography did not carry the day. I do not believe that Clark's will either.

[Kanola]

14. So ... How is Clark going to beat Bush

Dean has the most momentum, money, supporters, grass roots activists than Clark. How is Clark going to beat Bush? This Dean is doomed is getting real tired because right now all it is is speculation.

[Larkspur]

20. Remember Clark asked Dean if Dean's supporters' enthusiasm was

automatically transferrable to his campaign should he win the nomination?

Clark is banking on Dean doing the hard work of getting supporters to join politics so that he can profit from it.

[LuminousX]

25. Simple Mathematical Logic

Dean beats Clark in Primaries.
Dean loses to Bush in General Election.
Clark beats Bush in General Election.

Wait... that isn't logical at all. If Clark can't beat Dean, and Dean can't beat Bush, then logic says Clark can't beat Bush, either.

I know for a fact Bush in not electable, though. So I'm not worried. Whoever gets the nomination will beat Bush.

[rumguy]

51. that makes no sense

it is a flawed syllogism - as the pools of people voting are very different in the primary and gen. election

[LuminousX]

56. Then maybe Clark should run as an Independent and avoid the Primaries

If he can't get the nomination from this pool of voters but can win against Bush in the GE, then he should run as an independent.

[last_texas_dem]

84. I disagree with that logic

Primaries seem to be a whole different ballgame than the general election. For example, Shrub beat McCain in the Republican primary. However, I think there is a much better chance that President Gore would have truly lost to McCain rather than only "losing" to Shrub in the sense that Shrub's cronies stole the election for him. Or, a more understandable example: the '84 election. Mondale beat Hart in the Democratic primaries, but then got stomped by Ray-gun in the general. I love Walter Mondale, but there is a good chance Hart would have done better against Reagan than Mondale did. Just a couple examples, but this is why I disagree with the comparisons above.

[bearfartinthewoods]

88. you are kidding right?

if not, i am dumbfounded that such a level of..of..damn...how do i even phrase this without being insulting.

i can't...nevermind

[deminflorida]

16. I think Carville is speaking up, and I think alot of people need

to speak up before January. He certainly speaks what is on my mind.

[Upfront]

49. Carville

If this is true, and there is no more to it, James has seen his lasrt dime from me.

[Individualist]

81. I lost respect for Carville

in May 2002 when he said it's idiotic to think Bush knew 9/11 was going to happen and didn't do anything about it. www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/22/cf.crossfire/

[HFishbine]

17. Link?

Source?

[Loonman]

18. Carville has a good read on the situation

He doesn't talk just to hear himself speak.

[AWD]

21. The big difference is.....

...I have pledged full support in everyway possible to the candidate no matter who it is.

I doubt that many of the people who post anti-Dean articles will do the same.

And to be honest, I don't think what you posted here was all that bad. I'm not one to get all upset over Carville's words there, because I know he'll be on the frontlines fighting like mad to elect any Dem on the ticket.

It's the threads that try to say Dean was a bad leader because NOW there's a Repub Governor in Vermont....it's bullshit like that that's lame, contrived, inflammatory, and makes freepers smile.

[bleedingheart]

22. Honest question - Who is Carville working for?

Which campaign has he signed up with?

[tinanator]

42. He's a coupmonger and whore in his mother's name

in dire need of an ass whuppin for working against Chavez.
I fart in his general direction as he gags down a few more inches of Satan's scaly pecker. Friends like these...

[adadem]

23. Has anyone else noticed

that none of the best-selling authors (of liberal political) books, columnists (other than Ivins) or top-tier Dem strategists are whole-heartedly supporting Howard Dean?

Is it early? Yes. But based on their comments so far it sure looks like an endorsement isn't coming the Dean way.

[Capn Sunshine]

61. Well we best just pack up then

what a LOAD. Why do I care what anyone thinks? I know what is right and I know what I like. Carvilles entitled to his opinion, but for the last four years, hes hasn't been right about much in American politics.

He has however , made money working for Tony "poodle" Blair , and the anti-Chavez pro oil company coup forces in Venezuela.

So i guess in the same mold as kerry and Clark, he's a true democrat.

Whatever Howard Dean may be, the fact that he doesn't NEED these beltway guys to win irks them no end.

Those of you in your top down campaigns still don't grasp what is going on here. Rail away, if you're a true dem you'll come around.

If Clark loses , will he vote for Bush? You decide.

[deminflorida]

24. As a side note, your not going to get people to stop speaking...

they are going to speak all the way to Jan. and the voters are going to decide. They need to speak that's the process. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

[LuminousX]

29. Who is trying to stop people from speaking?

[terrisel]

27. You are free to point it out.

I think the public discussion is good. It engages more and more people and gets them thinking that there is more than one alternative to the Bush disaster.

I got a long and thoughtful email the other day from an evangelical Christian who laid out all of his concerns about the path the Bush administration has set us on-the war and more.

We need strong alternatives. Otherwise there is too much potential for the sabotaging of the eventual candidate.

One reason the civil rights movement collapsed after MLK, Jr was killed is because the movement was unable to stop the media from identifying that movement with one individual.

Widespread determination to get Bush and Cheney out of office and to hold all office holders accountable is more important than who the candidate is.

The neoconservatives and the corporatists need to know that they can't thwart the will of the people by destroying one candidate.

[bearfartinthewoods]

79. if i'm reading you right and you are calling for a fall back position,

i agree. if we lose, the only hope is for impeachment but with the current status re:dems/pubs, that's pretty hopeless too.

[truthspeaker]

28. I don't mind you posting this quote and your opinion

But I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to explain why Dean is unelectable.

[bearfartinthewoods]

you don't go to the bible belt and

tell people to forget about God, gays and guns. please, don't even do it here in PA. we are trying desperately to get rid of spectre.

play with this map and tell me how we win without either a couple southern states or PA.

btw....on the bar that runs across the top of the map you can see the red /ble from part elections.

[truthspeaker]

97. I'm not following you

[Loonman]

33. This election is crucial

If Dean gets the nomination and cocks it up, there is going to be a lot of angry people.

Same for the other candidates that are polling right behind him.



My grandpa used to say: "you can crap in one hand, and wish in another, and see which one fills up faster".

[madfloridian]

34. There were some previous threads here about Carville and his projects.

The threads were very revealing, and some here were quite critical of him. I don't really have an opinion either way. Did anyone happen to save them?

It was involving some projects in South or Central America which he was working on, and he was gone for a while.

I have talked to party leaders here in Florida enough to know that they are being very Republicanish. They always are. They want what will make the Republican Party happy, they don't want to offend.

So, we here are used to that "fear" factor.

I would love it if someone could come up with a thread or two. I just did an archive search with no luck.

I think he and Begala are acting very "establishment" in their attitude toward Dean. That is their right.

Oh, BTW reread what you just wrote and think about what you just said and implied.
SNIP..."I understand the natural inclination to bristle when such things are presented. The kindest thing I can do is to not reciprocate. However, it is my duty as a Democrat to point out when I think the party is considering committing to a disastrous course...."

Actually I bristle at condescension from anyone. The kindest thing you could have done would be not to talk down to us.

[Loonman]

35. Why would they be acting like that? Simple Question.

If Carville and other establishment Dems are giving Dean the freeze, there has to be a reason for it.

What could that reason be?

[dand]

50. Carville and Begala know a loser when they see one,

Dean's attitude toward minorities and his lack of support with Democratic politicians means four more years with the war criminal, we need CLARK.

[Loonman]

54. Carville and Begala also have no stake in any of this

So their opinions can be construed as genuine.

[madfloridian]

91. Same reasons they had for leaving Gore hanging in 2000?

Even Florida Democrats like Penelas let him down. They want the the party to go right,and they have their plans for it.

[GalleryGod]

37. Thanks! Got a Chance To Fatten-up My "Ignore" List , too!

:donut: Your Man in the Faculty Lounge,
GG:yourock:

[CWebster]

40. Who needs Republicans

When democrats are more than willing to market their dirty work?

[Q]

43. It seems to me...

...that it's the same posters who spend most of their time on DU finding attack articles against canididates rather than supporting their own.

- Carville's opinion means no more than anyone elses. I'm kind of shocked to hear him lash out at another Democrat like this when there's so much at stake. Like the DUer who started this thread...Carville is more than welcome to support the candidate of his choice...but steps over the line when they actively try to take down another Democrat.

- He's abusing the 'power of the press' to promote his own personal agenda...something we say we hate when RWingers the same.

[pansypoo53219]

44. and what does he say NOW?

taint the right historical president. i see more Truman.

[JanMichael]

45. Carville was/is working for the Plutocrats tying to overthrow Chavez.

In Venezuela.

So really, honestly, I could care less what he has to say about much of anything.

[Zomby Woof]

47. Carville's been there

No one worked the trenches uphill harder than Carville on a presidential campaign. His analysis is worth listening to, and it's s shame too many close-minded people with dismiss his wisdom with the usual "Rove meme" crap. When you fall back on the "meme" cliché, you have run out of arguments.

I don't think Dean is unelectable, just undesirable. He has more than a bit of the huckster about him.

[rumguy]

48. Yes Carville knows what it takes to win....

[truthspeaker]

60. yeah

that explains the stellar successes of Democrats in the 2000 and 2002 elections.

[OBrien]

75. We did win in 2000 and he wasn't working ..

on a campaign in 2002

[dave29]

72. for Bill Clinton

he certainly didn't help us in '00 or '02 did he

[kodi]

52. goldwater's campaign realigned the GOP & made it dominant in 16 years

the changes in the GOP that were initiated by the '64 goldwater campaign have made the GOP the force it is today and one in which has had the upper hand in US politics for over 20 years.

what goldwater started is still reverberating throughout america and the world.

we should be so lucky to do the same.

i think that carvelle is afraid that he and his types will be diminished by a true grass roots movement which will sweep away his type of alleged political animal and bring back a more representitive democracy.

i gave up on carvelle when it was revealed that he was a paid consult to the coupe leaders and opponents of the venezuelan president chavez

[K-W]

59. He is certainly no radical

but he is a good democrat and he has a keen eye for elections. Im not sure I agree with all your statements about Goldwater, the republicans have been taken over by a very efficient and scary group and that takeover started wtih Goldwater, but the GOP havent been dominant ever since. They have just scared us by being able to get elected consistantly on propaganda alone, while doing massive damage to our country.

The other problem with your comparison is that Dean is no Goldwater. He is not a representitive of a new group on the scene. He is not a idealogue. Dean is a fairly establishment democrat who has, in this time and place, excited the liberal base of the party. Hes not running on a progressive platform and isnt leading a progressive movement.

THe goldwater comparison, as far as what he meant for the years to come would really only work if we had someone like kucinich go into the presidential race.

I think Dean can win the general election, but I think going in with him leaves us very vulnerable to the type of campaigns that Republicans are very good at.

[kodi]

66. i am referring to the movement of activists goldwater initiated in the GOP

i was not referring to personalities or political policies.

what the goldwater movement started was the use of grass roots organization by right wing radicals who took over the GOP from the bottom up.

by spreading out from the local to the national they have captured the GOP from traditional main street and wall street republicans.

dean's campaign has the potential to do likewise in the democratic party.

[K-W]

68. No, it doesnt

because the Dean campaign is not about a new approach to liberalism. He is a moderate democrat. He isnt an icon for progressiveness, he isnt one now, he wont be one running for president, and he will never in his career be one. He is a fairly fiscally conservative moderate democrat. The fact that a large number of alienated liberals have latched onto him because of the specific situation in this election does not mean he is pushing the party in a different direction. He isnt.

There is no parrallel to the neo conservatives. If you want to see a progressive movement develop in and take over the dem party, then dont back dean. Back Kucinich.

[kodi]

86. separate the campaign's structure from the man or his policies

fixate on personalities if it makes one feel better, but the movement of grass roots activism is not because of a single person or program.

it is about people engaging in the political process itself, regardless of the politics.

this is why the goldwater campaign and its subsequent impact on the GOP is apropos as a model when discussing dean's campaign structure and activism.

at the local town and county public political meetings i attend, i see some dean supporters, but not a single kucinich suporter, perhaps they are busy elsewhere, but engagement at the local level to influence the process of decision-making is the point of a grass roots movment.

dean has been more effective in this than anyone else.

you are dwelling on what people are thinking, i am referring to what they are doing to bring about what they are thinking.

i am more interested in getting people involved in using the most effective path one takes to achieve their goals than in the goals themselves since goals change with each issue, yet the path can be the same.

[Duder]

53. Did Carville also say...

That Clark reminded him of Ross Perot without the Ferenghi ears?

Without a link to the story who knows...?

[DancingBear]

65. I saw Carville and Matalin speak at a convention

six months before the 2000 election. The room was probably 85% Republican, and Matalin came on first. Carville came on after she finished, to tepid applause. He had a map of the U.S. behind him, and for the next 25 minutes gave everyone in that room a lesson on how campaigns are won. He was absolutely spot on with regard to framing an opponent, selectively campaigning in designated areas, sound-bites for public consumption, etc. He then "drew" the 2000 electoral map, in red and blue. He was absolutely spot on again (save for West Virginia), even down to declaring Florida as the pivotal state.

If he says Dean is not the man, then Dean is not the man. End of story. We are not talking of Carville's other involvements here, we are talking solely of his ability to analyze U.S. political trends and campaigns. He is without peer in this regard.

Whichever campaign gets him (if any) will be VERY lucky.

[JNelson6563]

67. What do you expect from a Clinton-man?

Do you think he would predict victory for the candidate who is not Clinton's horse in this race?

I couldn't be less surprised.

Julie

[October]

69. First off, the icon doesn't help

If it were true that you post the criticism of another candidate just to inform people of negative "articles and statements" that are out there -- then why not post the same for your preferred candidate?

It's when your icon screams "Clark" and you post something negative about "Dean" that ticks people off. It's not going to be taken objectively.

It seems transparent, and hence another flame war at DU.

[Rowdyboy]

87. I disagree with that

I appreciate people who let you know where they're coming from. The poster is up-front and honest about his/her preferences. I prefer that to people who hide behind non-specific avatars and attack candidates. You have no idea where they're coming from.

JMO.

[mzmolly]

70. Got a link?

thanks, I like to see articles in context.

[QC]

76. He is clearly an agent of Goldstein, um, Rove!

[rumguy]

83. Pretty soon we'll all be hanging out in the Chestnut Tree Cafe

[Ksec]

77. The Rajun Cajun is a southerner

and hes got that attitude about Yankees.

I like him but hes got issues.

[OBrien]

96. nobody can win without the South!

and he knows it!

[calimary]

82. Well, guys, the more stuff like this gets repeated, the more it's

likely to become true. Do you REALLY want to risk that? Are you SO adamant about not giving your all to the candidate that looks very likely to be the one we all are gonna have to get behind?

Let me say here (while also asserting that I will support WHOMEVER is our nominee) that I also don't believe than anyone dissing Dean as not electable is actually a mole for the bushies.

But it sure seems as though they're acting like it.

[retyred]

85. Carville was pretty astute following selection 2000

His take was that those that voted for bush weren't voting for the lesser of two evils, they were voting for the evil of the two lessers!

Say what you will, this man lives democrat pollitics, and whatever his observations, they do mean something, I would not take what the man says lightly.

Then again I like Clinton and Clark....go figure!


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[hey2370]

89. It's hard to accept criticism of Dean from a Clark supporter

The "here's another person who believes Dean's undelectable" opinion would have a little more credibility coming from a poster that doesn't think Clark is the only candidate that is electable.

Would Clark supporters agree that it is important for every Dem voter to consider and reconsider the fact that Clark has absolutely no experience in elected political office every freaking day?

That Clark has stated publicly that bin Laden should be tried in the Hague if he is captured?

That Clark must have been either fired or quit from his military post, but claims neither occurred?

Frankly, these "look, another person thinks Dean is a sure loser" threads are political attacks by partisans for less successful candidates. If you think you are just doing this for the general education of people who read the posts on this site, you are deluding yourself.

[John_H]

90. More wierdness from the bizarro world of Deanspin Land

where Tweety and Lunz are fair and balanced journalists, not GOP operatives and James Carville is a DLC idiot.

[kaitykaity]

92. Gee, a link would be nice.

I respect Carville--he's a partisan who knows how
to fight. So I don't believe this.

Sorry.

[ieoeja]

94. Apples, Oranges, and a Nut

Theorem: opposition to an active war will cause a candidate to lose a presidential race in the United States.

Proof: McGovern opposed Vietnam and lost badly.

The problem is that this proof stands alone. We need another example under different conditions. For example, the 1968 election took place under the following other conditions:

1. years of civil disobedience and counter protests had created a populace sick and tired of protests and protestors,

2. yet more protests and acts of civil disobedience opposed, not just to this war, but to any war by people stupid enough to think they could win over the general populace to their position by calling Americans "baby-killers",

3. the so called "anti war" candidate made no attempt to, or was completely ineffective at, countering the notion that he naively opposed any use of the military and could not be trusted to defend this country.

We are already in the clear on the first condition. The second is unlikely. So all we need now is for Dean to win the nomination, fight back against opposition spin (and he appears ready and able to do just that), and lose badly. Until then the theory that opposition to any war means automatic defeat has little evidence to back it up.




Theorem: advocating the use of nuclear weapons on a country that represents no direct threat will cause a candidate to lose a presidential race in the United States.

Proof: Goldwater promised to do just that and lost badly.

Again, this is backed up by a single example. Truman won an election AFTER using the bomb, but that was against a serious threat and nobody really knew anything about the bomb at that time. And while MacArthur also ordered the bomb be used, his order was ignored, it was kept secret from the American public until long after MacArthur's presidential campaign, and MacArthur was defeated in the primary.

Unfortunately, nobody is advocating the use of nuclear weapons in Iraq. So we will have to wait until a future election for additional evidence for this theory.

[Cheswick2.0]

95. Carville is both a political and now a media whore

he sells his service to the highest bidder including republicans.

This particular thread has lost points for Clark in my eyes. You don't reflect well on your candidate.

[CMT]

98. do you have a link for your quote?

I would like to see the whole context of what he said. I've seen Carville stand up for Dean many times.

Also you don't help by the smug way you present this "I know it's hard for Dean supporters to accept..."

How would you feel if your candidate (who by the way is losing to Bush in most polls and certainly not running as well against Bush as he was just a couple of months ago--while Dean has been improving his standing) was always told that "you can't win". I think it is counter productive to say that of any candidate since the polls show that all the major candidates are often within the moe against one another vs. Bush. There might be a point or two difference in one candidate or anothers favor. For instance, according to Quinnipiac Dean is running a point or two better than Clark in NY. In NJ, Clark is running a point or two better than Dean. In Florida, Both are running 8-points behind Bush.

[madfloridian]

100. I found the Carville/Venezuela/Chavez article......

http://www.americas.org/news/nir/20030525_one_killed_during_march.asp

SNIP...."Chávez agreed to commit Venezuelan troops to work with U.S. agents in fighting narcotrafficking near the Colombian border, though he reiterated his opposition to Plan Colombia.

Meanwhile, Venezuelan opposition forces are getting support from various U.S. sources in their bid to unseat Chávez. Among other things, they are consulting with well-known Clinton strategist James Carville. U.S. media has also been largely hostile to Chávez. A recent editorial in the Wall Street Journal blasts Chávez for filling the oil industry with incompetent workers and harps on his supposed ties to “totalitarian” forces in Cuba.
...."

I am posting this because I referred to it in an above post. Does it mean anything? I don't know. He and Begala do not want Dean, he does not fit their desires.

[killbotfactory]

101. Well, all the pundits have been dead wrong so far...

500th doomsday predictions a charm, eh?

[Fleshdancer]

102. Well, let's just all give up right now

and vote for Bush. Raising millions of dollars, recieving key endorsements, having a grassroots network of over half a million people prior to the Iowa caucus is obviously nothing, so why bother?

Believing in a candidate and loving my country enough to fight for change was getting too silly anyway. I'll just stop because James Carville said so. Just like you will stop supporting Clark because Gore said so.

I can understand debating the issues, but come on, isn't it just a little bit ridiculous to call the hypothetical general election before the primaries even begin? I just love how the closer we get to election year, suddenly everyone has a functioning magical crystal ball...it worked SO well when everyone predicted Gore would lose the popular vote but win the electoral. :eyes:

[bobbyboucher]

103. Maybe it's a head-fake.

You ever thought of that. I mean, why would Carville repeat what every partisan Repuke hack has been saying. Rope-a-dope maybe?

Who knows? All I know, is that when I see Howard Dean talking about the issues, he makes sense. He makes the points that I would make. I think he has a chance. Bush is not God.

Remember, more people voted for Gore, and many didn't vote at all.

[unfrigginreal]

104. Ahh, some things never change

Why don't you post the link to this NEWSMAX piece?

Have you ever sourced anything other than right-wing rags?

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbyboucher]

108. Where is the link?

Is it really from Newsmax?

How many DUers believe that at least a fair portion of this anti-Dean rhetoric is from trolling Rovite Freepers?

[Moderator]

109. locked

please review the rules for posting a new thread in GD before posting a new thread in GD. Newsmax is a conservative site.

Thanks

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