Uniforms in Public Schools?

[Gringo]

Poll question: Uniforms in Public Schools?

Yes? No?

After my experiences with the Japanese school system, and the Miami schools (which also mandate uniforms) I tend to favor them. They seem to promote a more harmonious atmosphere of unity.

Kids can be fashion plates at the mall on the weekend if they like.

I'm also pretty sad when I see kids below the age of consent with every orifice pierced and hideous tattoos. When the fad blows over they'll be stuck with that junk.

The only thing uglier than an old, saggy wrinkly bod, is one covered with fading, blurring ink, IMO

[K-W]

1. I think its not a case where there is a right answer for everywhere

Uniforms do have an effect on a schools enviroment that would probably be an overall positive in some cases, but I dont think they are a universal good.

[phillybri]

2. I quote George Carlin:

"Don't these schools do enough damage making these kids THINK alike?"

[Monte Carlo]

10. ''BAD theory!!''

You beat me to it.

This is not Japan - we don't all have to be in a uniform. A reasonable dress code is fine, but uniforms!? Can we make our children hate every second of their time in school even more?

[Gringo]

13. Japanese kids love school a lot more than American kids.

If you really think that what gives kids a sense of self-worth is some trendy outfit, you seriously don't understand the mind of a child.

[Monte Carlo]

17. Let me tell you what I think...

This is not about fashion sense or trendy outfits. This is about making our schools even more prison-like than they already are. You don't fix what is broken with our schools today with some superficial uniform. We've become a nation obsessed with defining our schools with meaningless, self-defeating standards, from the teachers to the students. Now we have to standardize appearances? I thought learning was about the world of the mind.

[Gringo]

21. I wish you could visit a Japanese school

or even an American school using the uniforms. They are far from "prison-like". Everyone seemed to be having a lot more FUN than they are at many of our chaotic, and even scary schools.

[ACK]

24. They are safe at the school groped on public transit

Odd place Japan.

[redqueen]

29. Well that's really a whole other subject

Japan's school policies are pretty separate from their social rules regarding sexual behavior, don't you think?

[ACK]

38. Is it?

Every little girl needs to wear skirts and cute little uniforms makes the groping easier.

Easy access.

[redqueen]

42. Gimme a break

Compare a school uniform (and girls can wear pants too, ya know) to what some girls wear. I think you'll find in many cases the uniform is quite modest by comparison.

Oh yeah, and ... perv! :P

[ACK]

47. Think about cheerleaders

That is the real perv concept.

An idea that could only be conceived from the mind of a perverted adult with a desire to see young girls cheering the team in short skirts to up the sex to violence ratio of sports games.

[redqueen]

49. Well I'm not gonna argue with that

I agree with you on that, but yet again, that's another subject. We're not talking about cheerleaders' uniforms after all. :)

[ACK]

53. Come on how much difference is there?

Same short skirts and stuff. They just jump around less. :-)

[redqueen]

60. Oh come now

School uniform skirts go to the knee, the bottom of the knee, usually.

The other kind dip just below the crotch.

[ACK]

61. Depends on the school uniform and

how much the girls hike them up.

[Monte Carlo]

30. But many American schools today are already being run like prisons...

... and I just don't see how uniforms wouldn't add to the problem of baseless standardization. Education is not about conformity, it's about exploring and growing.

[Gringo]

35. I won't belabor this with you

I think you're just repeating platitudes, and don't really understand what uniforms are about, or the kind of atmosphere they create, but you're certainly entitled to oppose them.

Maybe school districts should have a couple non-uniform schools for kids who don't like them.

I'll bet the uniformed schools would CONSISTENTLY outperform the non-uniformed ones.

[Monte Carlo]

41. I happen to think the atmosphere leads to the uniforms...

... and not the other way around. The liberal arts in public schools these days just ain't as liberal as it used to be. In my experience, like George Carlin said, it's bad enough we have to make everyone think alike, now we have to make them all look alike, too.

[OhioStateProgressive]

3. I think they are terrible

just a complete abstraction of Freedom and individualism

Dress codes that establish guidelines for what kids can CHOOSE to wear, is different

[Bill McBlueState]

6. exactly

you ban the most outrageous types of clothing or piercing or whatever, but kids are stifled enough in school. Making everyone wear the same thing only worsens that. I'll admit thought, that if uniforms can be shown to provide a specific, measurable benefit, they could be appropriate for some situations.

[HereSince1628]

33. well students should learn dress "codes" as in semiotics

Students need to understand that the message they send in their dress can be ambiguous. They need to understand that regardless of what they meant to communicate in their dress, people who view and interpret that signal can take it very differently.

[grannylib]

4. I used to be really opposed to them until I went to a school that had them

-Makes it easier for kids and parents
-Really does help I think with an atmosphere conducive to learning
-Makes it easier for the 'have-nots' especially; less to compete with (especially if the school is smart and limits jewelry, accessories, etc.)
-Especially good I think if the school offers some 'mix and match' choices within their requirements; lets the kids have some choice but still adhere to the 'uniform'
I think it can help build pride in their school/themselves/their development; they can focus more on school and less on looks

Just my $.02 :-)

[OhioStateProgressive]

16. life is cheapened if the goal is always "easier"

and about the have nots...why settle for a system that will base all kids out to be equal, instead of a system where the schools have a descretionary budget to give kids small grants and such for things liek clothes and books

works for colleges

[grannylib]

93. you're right, easier was probably a poor choice of words...but I stand

by my opinion anyhoo, no offense! :-)

[Another Bill C.]

5. As a single parent

keeping my kids in clothes was difficult enough but the first time someone said to them, "Where'dya get your clothes? At Kmart?" life got even more complicated because that's probably where their clothes did come from and that's the absolute best I could do.

In all my life, I've never understood why someone would notice what someone else was wearing.

[OhioStateProgressive]

9. you nailed it on the head

and the answer isn't putting kids in white matching uniforms, it is killing this culture of avarice in our society that dictates we all must try and out do one another

in our schools kids are getting made fun of for every possible thing, the wealthy "preppy" kids, by and large, gang up and emotionally beat these kids up over everything from weight, clothes, cars...etc,etc,etc

and when the kid snaps because of it he is blamed and never does the issue of why he is that way taken into consideration

they let it go on in Columbine and a few kids had enough of it and killed 13 people

[redqueen]

7. Oh yeah

I like the idea about offering mix-n-match options. We need to ensure that students understand they're there to learn, not put on a fashion show or, God forbid, a lingerie show. Honestly, have you seen what some girls are wearing these days?!! Where are their parents?!

I remember being in school and feeling very bad about my clothes (hand-me-downs) and being insulted on a regular basis about it. It was NOT fun.

I also think all male and all female classes would be helpful for certain subjects. Math and science specifically. But that's another topic, right?

[Superfly]

8. As long as Cintas cleans them...

I'm all for them. I'm all for them even if they don't.

[Gringo]

11. Japan changed my mind about that.

Teaching for years in Japanese high schools & Junior high schools, I found that contrary to the "Asian Automaton" stereotype so widely believed here, the Japanese kids had much stronger sense of individual identity, MORE personality, and seemed to actually ENJOY school.

The problem with American kids is they try to define themselves through the external, but they're all more or less the same inside. I wish I had enjoyed my school experience the way my Japanese students appeared to be doing. I was too busy with dealling with pressures of drugs, "liquid lunches" in the parking lot at lunch, sex, and trying to fit in with the various cliques to really enjoy it.

Another positive aspect was that rather than the students going around from classroom to classroom, the class stays together as a unit all day, and the teachers of each subjects change classrooms. It gave each class a real team identity - it was amazing how unified they were, and what comeraderie they had.

Last, there is no janitor in the Japanese school. The kids clean up & sweep the classroom and their section of the hall at the end of every day. Needless to say, the schools are SPOTLESS.

[redqueen]

32. "define themselves through the external, but more or less the same inside"

Nailed it.

Bravo.

[Jivenwail]

12. I favor dress codes across the board

After Catholic school (uniforms mandatory) and then public schools where dress codes (not necessarily uniforms)were mandatory and enforcable, I'd vote that way, had it been an option in your poll.

I remember when going to school we had discipline and we had respect for teachers and authority. Girls were made to kneel down ont he gym floor to measure the length of skirts and if too short, they were sent home to change. Boys had to wear their shirts tucked into their pants. Freedom of expression should be reserved for after school hours. School is about getting an education, not about tantalizing others with the varied looks these kids are allowed to wear to classes today. Save the "freedom of expression" for the college campus. We live in a very permissive society and there needs to be discipline, to help these kids realize that life is more than the latest fad you can show off at school. It's a place of learning, not a fashion house.

JMHO, of course.

[Gringo]

18. Almost everyone who has experienced uniforms

seems to favor them.

It seems scary to those only used to the usual fashion contest, but it really is much better once you try it.

[lapislzi]

14. A few points

1. I vote for uniforms, but only if they are made affordable/subsidised for everyone. I lived in South Africa for many years, and it broke my heart to see families struggle to pay for ridiculously expensive (and mandatory) school uniforms. Most also had the disadvantage of looking silly--culturally inappropriate, and just plain dumb (straw boaters on little nappy heads are just ridiculous when your family can't buy food)

2. Why do you find "old wrinkly bodies" ugly? These are bodies that have done a lifetime of service; how should they look? I'm not implying that people should allow themselves to go to seed, but breasts (for example) that have served honorably to nurse children and now droop, are, in my opinion, beautiful.

[Gringo]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

"2. Why do you find "old wrinkly bodies" ugly? These are bodies that have done a lifetime of service; how should they look? I'm not implying that people should allow themselves to go to seed, but breasts (for example) that have served honorably to nurse children and now droop, are, in my opinion, beautiful."

I kinda thought I'd get some flak about that, but I wanted to make the point about old tatoos being hideous.

My wife and I are both starting to sag, and I don't think it's so horrible, but If I were to say that we are anywhere near as beautiful as the underwear models, I'd be lying. The young and fit ARE the most beautiful. It is their day in the sun, and I don't wish to take anything away from that. I had my time, now it's theirs.

I know what you mean, and older people should have a positive body image and all, but old, faded tats make a body that's seen better days look worse.

[lapislzi]

34. I still object to the cult of relentless youth

it causes people to do foolish things. Sure, young bodies are beautiful--biologically, we are hard-wired to perceive this. Such are people in the prime of reproductive life. I can think of no more spectacular specimens of vital humanity than the Williams sisters.

But the cult of youth takes it to extremes. I see it every day. We treat older people as invisible; they're "icky." Nevertheless, I would hope that you and your wife still delight in one another's bodies, and my man and I do (neither of us fits the "beautiful" ideal, but who gives a rat's ass?)

Sorry; I know it's off topic, but I did want to respond.

[redqueen]

40. Offtopic, but...

Just wanted to say I agree with you completely. Check out what people spend on cosmetic surgery trying to stay 'beautiful'. Barf.

Beauty is on the inside, folks. What's on the outside is illusory and temporary. How many of us enjoy the wrapping paper more than the gift? We need to get off the idea that looks mean much of anything at all, and the sooner the better.

[Gringo]

44. No gripes with that

I don't see old people as icky, since I'm becoming one little by little. But when I was twenty, I would have been grossed out by the idea of being with someone my age sexually, much less someone in their 70s.

Nowadays, I still see 20-somethings as sexy, but I'm not really interested in them that way because most of them don't know ANYTHING. Older people have plenty of charms to make up for their lack of tautness.

[VelmaD]

15. Hell no

Our schools are already factories for turning out little conformists. Let's dress them all alike too. Gotta grind down there little spirits so they'll go willingly into the corporate machine.

[Goldmund]

20. Amen

n/t

[OhioStateProgressive]

22. this is what happens when the goal of american schools changed

way back (not really) the shift went from making people smarter, educating them broadly, to preparing them for jobs...some are "choosen" in American High Schools now to have a delayed process, where they get put on an accelerated High School and College program to get just what is required for their choosen field...so in effect, it is just preparing them to get a better paying job

education is becoming more narrow and narrow, it creates narrow people

[reachout]

19. K - 12 mandatory

Reasons I like uniforms:

Less distraction caused by concern about clothes

Less money to Wal-Mart, GAP, Nike etc. for the latest fashions

Less class seperation among students

Less expensive for parents

Fewer convoluted rules that teachers/administrators have to worry about (your pants can only hang this low, you can only show this much of you stomach, etc.)

[Lady President]

23. Like uniforms

I went to a high school that had uniforms and one that did not. I liked wearing uniforms for a number of reasons:

1. You can concentrate on school not your clothes. I was the kid who wore cool, yet uncomfortable clothes when I had the opportunity.

2. Lack of sleep is hurting young people's learning ability and uniforms gave me an extra half-hour every morning.

3. Easier on the students without as much money because they don't need to compete on the fashion front.

4. I've heard that after the initial purchase uniforms save parents money. Also, no one will notice a hand-me-down uniform.

Personally, I believe creativity is not shown merely through clothes. The truly creative will be able to express themselves, regardless of what they wear.

[SoCalDem]

75. School uniforms CAN be cute and comfortable too

Upper-crusty private schools have uniforms, and people would do almost anything they could to get their kids into a private academy..

The link below shows some variety in uniforms too.. There could be a whole color palette, with many variations, so that kids are not all "dressed alike".. Lots of churches even have "uniform exchange" day for outgrown uniforms..

Of course the clothing/accessory/shoe sellers object vehemently and practically accuse them of child abuse.. As a parent, I would have LOVED it.. No more $120 sneakers..no more $50 shirts..:evilgrin:

Kids DO exhibit better behavior when they wear uniforms too.. If you think about it, MOST people wear uniforms without even thinking about it.. suits & ties are a uniform..



These are very reasonably priced too
http://frenchtoast.com/Default.asp?sid=SITE&bhcd2=1071254411

[Loonman]

25. Everybody needs a good dose of conformity at an early age

Otherwise how would you know the difference?

[Gringo]

31. The thing that struck me is

in spite of the external conformity in Japan, there is a much greater diversity of opinion and thought there than here. Coming back here, I was dumbfounded at how many people blathered on endlessly about Atkins, "Friends", then drove off to their cookie-cutter houses in far-flung suburbs, where they all watch the same crap tv - sports on sunday, all with the same center-right political views.

In Japan I met communists, socialists, right-wingers, very wierd artists, people of all stripes everywhere who were very comfortable about sharing their worldview with those who wanted to hear it.

How comfortable do YOU feel sharing YOUR liberal views with people. There is much more social oppression and conformity here.

[vi5]

26. You want your kid to dress nice and not partake in trends...

Fine. That is your right. Just as it's my right to allow my child to be an individual and learn about self expression.

School is about so much more than just academics. It's about socialization and finding your way in this world.

Sorry, no thanks.

[Loonman]

28. Trends are only cool if you have the $$$ to afford the latest thing

If it isn't in your parent's budget, you get ostracized.

Then again, that's a good lesson to.


Demonstrates that choice is an illusion. Why not let them learn that later on in life?

[vi5]

36. There are millions of things to get ostracized over....

I was horrible at sports. I felt like crap about myself because of that. I didn't advocate them banning sports to make me feel better about myself. I simply found my own thing and made my own path and learned to be an individual.

I don't see why clothing is any different.

[redqueen]

52. Hey that brings up a pet peeve of mine

IMO sports should be OUTSIDE the education system. If we want the kids to be physically healthy let them do aerobics or weight training. PE and sports are a distraction and IMO stupid.

I hope not much funding goes toward that kind of 'education'. I'm betting I'd be pretty disappointed to hear the numbers, but would love to be wrong on this.

[vi5]

59. I agree but it's one of those futile battles...

I can see the positive aspects of it even though I hate sports and PE.

[redqueen]

62. Heh not IMO

School funding is a critical issue nowadays. And the positive aspects of sports (team building, cooperation, etc.) can all be achieved through team efforts in other subjects (science, social studies, etc.)

IMO there's just NO reason to waste school resources or students' time on playing soccer, football, basketball, etc. It only cheapens education. If they could correlate some singular benefit only acheiveable through sports (in other words something gained that couldn't be gained by a team effort in another subject) then I wouldn't have a problem, but I don't see that that's the case as of yet.

Conversely, I see that sports actually causes more harm than good to the more intellectual among us, and that, in a setting which is supposedly there for educational purposes, to me is just unbelievable. Additionally, for those who aren't less athletically inclined because they're more 'bookish'... those that are just not too coordinated, PE can be devastating to one's self-confidence. I guess I just view using school time to reinforce the kind of behavior we see in PE (I think most know what I mean) is counter to what we should be trying to achieve as a society.

[vi5]

83. I agree 100%....

I'm just more pessimistic about the actual ability we would have to make that particular change. Or even if as much as I hate it, there aren't many more important things that need to be fixed first.

[Gringo]

87. Self-expression

What does deciding which clique's fashion to mimic have to do with self-expression. Kids are the MOST conformist of all people, whether we put them in uniforms or not.

Self-expression comes from within. If you are defined by your clothes, I'd say there's not much there.

[ACK]

27. Dress them up...

Indoctrinate them.

March them off to the same wars.

March them off to the same corporate jobs.

Look the same. Act the same. Think the same.

Uniforms are fun. The government loves you.

[Gringo]

48. Japan has had a pacifist philosophy and been at peace for 60 years now

A lot better than I can say for the US. When you ask Japanese kids what their dream is, they will reagale you with their dreams of becoming great artists, or architects, or veteranarians, and the great things they will achieve. When my wife asked her students here that question, they just looked at her dumbfounded. None of them even HAD a dream for themselves. One or two of them said they wanted to go to a good school so they could get a good job and make good money. But nobody is inspiring them to have a real dream for themselves. I know this is a bit off-subject, but I do think it contradicts the militaristic image you are portraying.

Americans already act and think the same, in spite of the various clothing styles. Maybe uniformity of appearance would actually encourage people to think different, to BE different, on the inside, where it counts.

[ACK]

58. If we dressed them up in uniforms they would be better people?

Sorry, but I think that is bull.

I also thinks it idolizes a Japanese culture that has issues in and of itself.

We can get into a whole discussion about pre-packaged rebellions and trends.

The whole school uniform debate is an irrational simplification of very big problems in our society.

[Gringo]

82. You equated uniforms with militarism

There is no more militarized nation in the world, yet most of our youth dress ridiculously.

I don't deny that Japan has "issues" Militarism is not one of them.

[Exultant Democracy]

37. I think all kids should got to school nude

1. That way the haves and have-nots will be on even footing.
2. Kids will learn to be comfortable with their own bodies.
3. Girls wearing distracting clothing will no longer affect boys attention.
4. Less money for Wal-Mat, Gap, Nike, etc. for the latest fashions.
5. Instead of dressing to conform each will be the very definition of individuality.
6. If it started in kindergarten when kids don’t even understand clothing in the first place then even as they moved into adolescence it would be no big deal.
7. Cultures without strong nudity taboos have exponentially lower rates of sexual/gender related crimes and abuse.

[jokerman93]

39. Why stop at uniforms?

Why not militarize the public school system completely?

Children could be apptitude tested, and assigned an MOS in first grade. They could then be trained in the arts of war to an expert level by the time they are elegible for the draft. Graduation is rewarded by the privelidges and opportunities available to those elite young boys and girls who have been chosen to fight for our glorious leader in the Neverending War against evildoers, terraists, suiciders and Leather-clad lesbian bikers and other interlopers.

(Yes Boris Dahlink, tell me your fiendish plan!!!)

:smoke:

on edit:
Yeah I think uniforms are a good idea. As Gringo said, the Japanese model seems to work well. ...And everyone loves those sailor uniforms!!!

[lapislzi]

43. Straw man alert

I think you are mistaken in your characterization of school uniforms as "militaristic"--unless I am reading your post wrong.

[jokerman93]

46. I'm just bored and "ironizing", lapislzi

like yer nick :-)

[lapislzi]

56. figured as much...

I don't think uniforms hurt the kids, and they probably eliminate more problems than they cause. They should be simple and cheap, however.

<going after that playing field with a bulldozer>

[Exultant Democracy]

51. Not a straw man. The logical fallacy that it most resembles would be

the slippery slope. In fact by calling it a Straw man when it was not, and using that as the bases for dismissing his argument you are in fact guilty of using a straw man.
Now while we all know that using a slippery slope is not good logic, we do have to admit that as often as not historical trends tend towards lending slippery slope arguments some credence. Straw man arguments on the other hand are completely unforgivable.:)

[lapislzi]

57. Excuse me, my head just exploded

Thank you for that...er, clarification...I'll try hard not to mix up my debating points in the future.

:D

[Exultant Democracy]

64. eh sorry about that I was just messing w/ you.

[JewelDigger]

45. Anybody who is against school uniforms hasn't tried them...

Sure, school uniforms are expensive 'up-front'...but over the course of the school year, you're way ahead/they are much cheaper than buying the junk that falls apart/fades, etc. that is sold at K-Mart, et al. School uniforms wear like 'iron' and they can be worn for years (our school has a uniform 'trading' day at the end of the year that works really well. We can just trade-in a too small uniform for a bigger size and all the people who graduate just donate their uniforms to the 'pot').

The money that my family saves by not buying tons of clothes for school is now used for extra-curricular classes (painting, music, etc.), books, and other things that I believe TRULY help the kids to 'expand their horizons'.

My kids don't stress or fret about what 'they're gonna wear tomorrow' - they know! They look 'nice' every day (no fighting about what's appropriate/not appropriate) And for me, a single mom, it's great b/c every nite (or every other nite ;-) ) I just throw all the uniforms into one wash load and everything is easily all ready and clean for the next day.

Yep, I've thought for a long time that the folks against having 'school uniforms' just don't understand how nice, easy, and beneficial it is - on so MANY levels. It really is great!

[Gringo]

50. I'm surprised how many support uniforms. Part of the "Clark Conspiracy"?

to take over DU? ;-)

[ACK]

54. Don't be

Many liberals here never back up their bull with substance on civil libertarian issues. Even the minor bullshit conformity ones like this.

I do see this as an extension of a civil libertarian style debate on freedom of expression.

[Gringo]

55. I don't see it as a civil liberties issue at all

Education is manadatory, but kids don't have to go to the public schools. Our dress is mandated at many venues we attend. Kids MUST wear uniforms to play team sports. At a black-tie event, we must go formal. Class time is not "their personal time". The school is well within its rights mandating what kids wear. I also think kids are entitled to dress as ridiculously as they like outside school (provided the parents are okay with it.)

At least school uniforms aren't demeaning like the ones many fast-food companies force their wage-slaves to wear.

[ACK]

65. Problems with your correlations

Education is mandatory.

Conformity must be mandatory too?

People working at fast-food places are not on public tax sponsored properity. They are not forced by law to be there like a public school.

Team sports uniforms are for team identification and safety. Kids are forced to play a sport.

What you have to wear day to day is not the same as a voluntary black tie event.

Until they get out of high school they have no rights or assumption of rights at all?

I do not agree with that.

We should force them to go to our schools and get our state sponsored county run education. But, that is not good enough.

Mass conformity of the Japanese people works for them and inspires them so it will work for us. Yeah right.

School would just a better happy place with more freedom and thought and bigger dreams for all the children if only you force them to wear uniforms and all wear the same kinds of clothes.

Yeah right.

God, this whole discussion from a bunch of people who call themselves liberals makes my head hurt.

[lapislzi]

67. I don't think it's about "conformity" necessarily

I see it as being about leveling the playing field. I also don't think we need make more of it than there is. It's a rule (or a potential rule); nothing more or less. There are all kinds of rules in schools, some silly, some not. The general rule of thumb, as I see it, is that issues or items that pose safety hazards OR potential distractions from learning tend to be prohibited: electronic games, fad-toys, weapons.

Many schools (my stepson's in New Mexico included) go too far overboard on the "distractions" prohibition. However, the whole clothing issue tends to foster the social divisiveness that kids seem to incline naturally toward. Let's just remove it from the equation, shall we?

[ACK]

68. simplification of complicating issues

<sarcasm on>

Rich kids after all do not have any other way to intimidate other kids.

If we just dress them up so they look all nice and neat that is how they will act.

The general malaise of american youth will fade away and kids will starting acting like children of vision and dreams again like one poster said about Japanese kids.

We will ignore a culture of high cynicism, narcisism and violence.

That has nothing to do with the problems in schools.

Its what those wild kids with too many piercing and tatoos are wearing!!

If they look like little angels they will be little angels and God will be in Heaven and all will be right with the world.

OMG, I think I am going to cry.... sorry man

</sarcasm>

[lapislzi]

70. riiiiiiiight, then...

and *I* oversimplified?

You can still have piercings and tattoos and wear a uniform, yanno. And can you explain how school uniforms contribute to a "culture of high cynicism, narcissim, and violence?"

And why is everyone on DU picking on me today?

[ACK]

71. They don't contribute but neither do they solve these issues

Focusing on school uniforms ignores the cultural problems.

[lapislzi]

73. Never suggested uniforms would solve cultural problems

There are instances when uniforms can make them worse (see my earlier post on uniforms in South Africa)

There are instances where they can ameliorate, by leveling the playing field.

If the policy is applied with sensitivity, I think that the latter will happen more often than the former. Yes, I know it's asking a lot to expect the policy to be applied with sensitivity. I was just saying.

[ACK]

78. You said it would even the playing field

That implied you thought that school uniforms in and of themselves would eliminate some division between the monied and the less fortunate in society.

I think that many here are over simplifying very complex societal issues.

[lapislzi]

88. And you don't think it will?

It can't close the gap between rich and poor. It can't, as you put it, "eliminate divisions." The wearing of uniforms can change perceptions, however. If all the kids are identically dressed, then the kids (theoretically) don't know who's rich and who's poor, and they'll be forced to interact as equals, at least on that level. Don't get me wrong; kids will find another thing to pick on; they always do...but if you can take away one instrument, one badge of class consciousness and distinction, then why not?

[ACK]

89. In a money-obsessing consumer society like America

No.

I think that is where we are going to have to agree to disagree before we take thread over to the scrolled edge of the screen.

[Gringo]

84. The kids with tats and piercings AREN'T wild

They're bored, and express themselves with CONFORMIST piercings and CONFORMIST tats because they have too much time and too few intellectual and creative outlets. Piercings and tats are the definition of conformity. They are what the media has told kids is "cool" and the kids copy one another.

[ACK]

90. Nope they are not wild

And its just another form of conformity. In your original post, you mentioned them so I mentioned them in my sarcasm on post.

Like I said we could have a completely seperate thread on mass-produced trends and the conformity of media induced stylized rebellion.

[Loonman]

72. So we're not "conforming" to the liberal ideal, ehh?

Heh heh.

[redqueen]

76. Nice

:)

[ACK]

77. Nope but I am not forcing you to conform to my ideals

It just gives me a headache to get into so many conversations today with people about muslim scarves and laws to force women not to wear things that other people see as demeaning to women and ....

then we get into the school uniforms.

There are two sets of conflicting liberal ideals here.

There is a liberal economic and civil libertarian strain of liberalism.

Then there is the liberal economic with social engineering brand of liberalism that I believe runs a foul of civil liberties.

In any case, nobody is forcing you to conform.

[Loonman]

79. You over-analyze

You have to see the forest for the trees.

[ACK]

80. Maybe but others are over-simplifying

We are talking about all kinds of complex issues like wealth and self-loathing and lack of direction and esteem issues.

Then we slam that into a soundbite sized question like whether or not you support school uniforms.

School uniforms will not solve the problems we have with the cynicism, narcism, and violence in today's youth culture.

[jokerman93]

74. I don't know about anyone else here, but you nailed me.

O8)

[hunter]

63. Yes, my kids wear school uniforms...

...and I like it.

Uniforms cut out so much crap. The wealthy kids and the gangsters (who, not surprisingly, share many traits) have less opportunity to lord it over the kids who must wear hand-me-downs and clothes their parents buy at K-Mart.

Most everyone buys their uniforms at K-Mart, Wal-Mart, or Target. To buy a uniform at more expensive places would be goofy, and would not increase one's social standing.

Still, there is a big problem with shoes. The kids always look at shoes, and it's hard to keep up with the current shoe fashions. The gangsters and the rich kids are always coming up with something new. My kids outgrow shoes so fast our family would be broke if we bought $180 shoes.

[blindpig]

66. I can't believe I voted yes

as a victim of Catholic school I hated uniforms and to this day will not wear blue dress pants or white shirts! That said, this high dollar fashion crap that has infected much of our youth is unfair to folks less than well off. Uniforms didn't stop me from being a wildboy.

[HEyHEY]

69. I used to be against it but now I'm for it

Until I spoke to a guy who had been to Taiwan to teach...he said the uniforms phased out class distinction and fashion. SO the kids baseed their friendships more on who they like...sounds all around healthier to me.

[webkev]

81. absolutely

there should be no rich and poor in the school yard..

[Gringo]

85. Like your Clark/Dean montage.

Although the Clrk photos are kinda blurry. Lots of us out here like BOTH of them.

[noonwitch]

86. Officially no, but I'm really more neutral

I understand the money saving aspect from the parents' perspective. I also think that kids should be able to express themselves. When I was in school, I would have hated having to wear a uniform.

[election_2004]

91. Yeah, an "across-the-board" mandate of uniforms....

That's exactly what we need...more government interference with our lives, telling us what to do.

Some of you who support such a draconian mandate make Ashcroft look like Tiny Tim.

I say let the private schools have their uniforms...but there's no way in hell I will ever support the government saying to our public schools, "You must implement uniforms!"

[CalebHayes]

92. If so lets do it for all federall funded places... Parks... Federal jobs..

Com' on. I have a right to freedom of speech to... Right? Today I wore a t-shirt that says "Support the troops... Bring them home!". This is my freedom and I intend to keep it!