The only way DEAN will lose is if: Enough Dem candidates and their

[opihimoimoi]

supporters, the Naderites, the Greenies, the Blueies, the Working Class, the Poor, Women, the Middle Class, The ones who care and share for America....... vote for Bush.

This is a Call for a UNIFIED approach to defeat the Bushites. If the nom is Kerry, Clark, or Dean, whoever, so be it. We should be united in our efforts towards the removal of Bush and the policies he represents.

The Pubs wish to fragment us, let us not fall for their baits.

The Nader is gonna play GOOD COP BAD COP with the Pubs.

The Greenies can only win by joining, at least they will have a say. If Bush prevails, we all lose.

The Middle Class wants better, join now or forever pay higher taxes while the Rich goes skating.

Women want men deciding their maternity fate?? Step to the Plate.

The Z Generation?? They DON'T wanna pay for the Pubs Losing Spending?
Join the Dem effort.

Its a big tent and we cannot forget this. We got our diff's. But to lose track of the cancer, the evil, the GOAL, of getting the Bush guys out, is dreadful.

Come, help gather stones for the IMU(stove), help gather fish, dry the meat, prepare the poi, make Haupia coconut pie,

we got a LUAU to make, Lets go Global.

now, where do we get those Hula Girls and Sword Dancers?

[RandomKoolzip]

1. But...but...Dean is like a used car salesman!!!

And that's enough to keep me from voting Democratic. :eyes:

[opihimoimoi]

7. I hope you were being facetious, and if not, its cool

Come, we go surfing

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[opihimoimoi]

21. I will ,,,Mahalo

come, we find manini to fry

[RandomKoolzip]

27. It's a reference to an anti-Dean post this morning...

Somebody posted "Anybody but Dean and Lieberman" and the only reason he said he didn't like DEan was because Dean reminded him of "A ued car salesman." No facts, no substance, just an insult. awesome, huh?

[retyred]

45. Dean is not like a used car salesman

so stop saying that!!!



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[Nederland]

2. Not the only way

All that has to happen is for independents to vote Bush.

[bearfartinthewoods]

40. funny how this fact seems to slip under soooo many people's radar.

somehow this myth that all that is needed to elect the dem is for all dems to vote, has imbedded itself in the psych of the Dean camp. it's WRONG and foolish, magical thinking and we as sooo shit assed outta luck if they don't come to their senses and realize we need independents, otherwise known as the swing voters as well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Proud member of the ABB

Party...

And that is the way people have to think

Here is the way I see it, fight for YOUR CANDIDATE thruogh the
primaries

After the Primary get behind the Candidate, whoever it is

[opihimoimoi]

5. Glad to see your wisdom,,, both of you

Come, help with the Ti leaves

[TrueAmerican]

4. Dems can't win it alone

We need independents and some Republicans to cross over and vote Democratic. We need a candidate that won't alienate them. I'll vote for Dean, but it's going to be hell trying to convince my father-in-law to do.

[Melodybe]

19. Not as hard as you think, my father-inlaw is a diehard repub

and the only one of the Democrats he would vote for is Dean. He likes that Dean is good with money, it really speaks to him. Plus, my f-i-l is incredibly intelligent and likes it when politicians are too(as for shrub, your guess is as good as mine) but he likes that Dean is a doctor. The whole he is too conservative stuff that I often hear from some greens (I am a former green, so no offense) is the EXACT reason that plenty of repubs will vote for him. The folks that decide that they don't like Dean's social issues, they will be much harder to win over. They don't seem to mind killing tons of innocent Iraqi women and children but gay marriages that is the devils work!

Look at those who support Dean they spand all ages, all races, and all backgrounds. That is why he can and will win, if he gets to be nominee.

I swear if I hear one more person say that Dean won't appeal to black voters, I'll scream. All the black people I know (I'm in the south, so unlike some, I actually know plenty of black people) want shrub gone, ABB, end of story But of the ones that know who Dean is they REALLY like him and the Gore endorsement means a lot to them.

[GR]

20. I Don't Know....I Think This May Be A Base-Driven Election...

Some in-depth polls show there really aren't many "independents" at all. Those who describe themselves as such ususally vote one way or the other consistently. So it's who can bring out new voters and energize their base. Sorry but Gephart , Lieberman, Kerry and Edwards will energize the base and bring out new voters like Dole did for republicans in 1996. Clark is too much of a novice, but still has a dark horse's chance should Dean screw up badly.

[bearfartinthewoods]

42. with me it's my sister and brother in law

and they are freakin dems. i'm not saying they'll vote for bush but they are sure they won't vote to raise their own taxes.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

6. How can he win or lose if he is not the nominee?

:hi:

TWL

[opihimoimoi]

9. Yes, he is not the Nom. But I did mention this is a call for Unity.

I only mentioned Dean cause of his front runner status. and I also called for Independents too, "working class, women, the young voters, etc"

[Cocoa]

8. don't believe the hype about dem divisions

i.e., right on, Opi.

[opihimoimoi]

13. I don't but its disturbing to see so many posts reflecting fragmentation

This is a call for UNITY

A COMMON ENEMY

leads us.

We should be taking steps with the BEST ODDS to remove the Bushweed from the WH lawn

[ThirdWheelLegend]

26. "with the BEST ODDS"

You say its a call for unity. Then you say we need to take steps with the BEST ODDS. You support Dean and he is the subject of your thread.
I don't see how I am not to infer that it is Dean you say should be our nominee.

Sure General Election unity can be great. I believe that we should nomiate the candidate with the most integrity and the one that is best on the issues. Therefore I support Dennis Kucinich in the primaries.

TWL

[opihimoimoi]

43. I used to be a Kerry guy, then after some time, switched to what I see is

A winning Hand. After hearing both sides over these many weeks, I feel Dean has the touch/the passion/the odds to do it.

I did not mean to infer pure neutralism but instead a stealth Dean Bean. I have been openly for Dean for a time now based on what I saw of him and the success he has in the campaign to date.

But I am also an odds guy. like to see decisions made with common sense, logic, and Reason.

And I respect those who back other candidates/philosophy as I shouls, I try to listen with care/objectiveity, more so if their odds are in the high zone; better yet if their ideas are sound and favors goodness for more of all "us guys".

Come, we Ti leave sliding in the mud, down the steep hill.

[Padraig18]

10. We HAVE to be united!

This election is about reclaiming our sovereign right to be a self-governing people, and it is too important to adopt the 'my way or the highway' mentality! I will work my fingers to the bone and max out my contributions to ANY Democrat who gains the nomination--even Joe Lieberman!

We MUST NOT lose sight of the forest, for the trees...

[opihimoimoi]

18. P 18, you and many others see the light, please help with the

removal of blinders, or perhaps, email the Visine guys to stronger formulas. and LOL, those coffee guys too. make strong coffee trees to help wake us up.

Come, we get the Peace Fire Walk ready.

[Padraig18]

29. I'm trying.

Every single one of our candidates would make a 10K-fold better Chief Executive than *.

Stay focused, people, and remember that we are DEMOCRATS, first and foremost!

:dem:

[Loonman]

11. What if Dean loses despite everyone's best efforts?

What then?

[opihimoimoi]

15. If the vote was rigged, tyranny exists, Lets hope not

Bad shit happens in gov't that go with tyranny

[GR]

22. There's A Better Than Even Chance This Will Happen...

But at least you've stood for something. To try to be like Bush only less so makes me sick. Bush is not worthy of one democratic vote, in my opinion.

[Mountainman]

12. Not to slight your wealth of knowledge which I respect, Dennis

I'm not sure Dean can get enough swing votes or disenchanted Repubs to beat Bush.

All Dems don't vote even though we out number Repubs. It is the Electoral College that decides who wins so we have to win states not just votes. Dean will not carry enough Southern States to win I think.

[opihimoimoi]

17. If we lose, At the very least we can say we gave the effort the best

shot and America will deserve everything we get from the Bush Guys. Up till now, we got tax cuts for the rich, a flawed Medicare, and now Barney Cam.

We deserve so much more, yes us, the working class, the poor, the ones who care/share for the Future.

Unfortunately we got all too many who WANT this system of things to die so they can go to HEAVEN. In some cases, this Heaven will alot them 72 virgins, 5 acres, and much water, fish in the streams, cattle in the pastures, etc etc.

Why not make Heaven on EARTH by UNITING???

[Mountainman]

28. I like heaven on earth, If you can't be happy here how do you get happy

later.

My teachers in Catholic school said we needed to suffer on earth to get a higher place in heaven. I always wondered how are you going to be happy in heaven when you didn't learn how to be happy on earth. Then I gave up on the idea of heaven and decided we should try to be happy here and don't worry about heaven cause it doesn't exist.

[opihimoimoi]

36. Hot Ribs and cold Beer for the Mountain Man.

Somebody write that one down, its a keeper.

[GR]

24. We Only Need Florida....And That Could Be Offset By Ohio...

and say Louisiana and Arkansas, I think, if we can't get Florida. We didn't win a damn southern state in 2000, except Florida, and the Supreme Court took that one away, but we still won the election.

[jmaier]

25. Whoa!

I hate to see this "we only need this one state" argument. First, the electoral population shift changes the 2000 results AND there is no certainty that all BLUE states from 2000 remain so -- many were very, very close.

If we're serious about ousting Bush then we need to consider the politics CAREFULLY. It simply isn't true that 1) any Dem could beat Bush if we just YELL the truth loud enough (an Atrios point) or 2) that Bush is so wildly unpopular that he is HIGHLY vulnerable.

Yes, he's vulnerable. It will take the right candidate, and there might be a couple, an energetic campaign, activists in the streets, attack ads, some good luck AND a few more Bush missteps along the way.

Okay. My $.02 rant!

[opihimoimoi]

37. JM, your 2 cents is 2 Million in my Book. As many times before

wisdom is shown.

[bearfartinthewoods]

46. here is a great graphic way to see the problem

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/map/

especially the bar at the top of the map that let's you display the red/blue breakdown in part elections.

[Zomby Woof]

14. nope

He can lose merely by failing to connect with the American people. Outside of his "excited base", he could very well be a flop on a wider scale, and it will be no fault of any Democrat.

[opihimoimoi]

23. Well, we can help by making sure

He does connect with the people... hope some of his stuph sticks,

Come, we gather fire wood.

[littlejoe]

33. I definitely don't see that happening

There have been no other candidates to generate that kind of buzz and excitement at the grassroots level. What makes you think that course will reverse itself. He has done the best job of connecting with the people on issues to date. Please explain to me why that would change?

[littlejoe]

30. To quote a long gone Louisiana politician,

the only way Dean is going to lose is, "If he's caught with a dead woman or a live boy."

[opihimoimoi]

39. Smoked Meat and Dried fish to go along with cold beer for littlejoe

More pearls to the strand.

Come, we have great need for more PEARLS?

Of wisdom of course.

Common Sense tells us we need more "Pearls" so the Strands we create is Brighter, Stronger, etc. Of the Highest Quality. These Pearls of Wisdom will ultimately give us DEMs the Best Odds of prevailing over bullshit.

Come, we find way to more Pearls, the very best Pearls.

[Myra]

31. That's simply not true. Dean is vulnerable on draft and sealed records.

He is very vulnerable.

And, as Conason said, Dean himself warned:

"In the past, when we've done this, settled on somebody quick, then you have buyer's remorse."

If we enter the GE with Dean, KKKarlCo *will* gleefully go
after his post-draft deferment ski spree, and his refusal to
unseal his records.

Dean glibly retorts "I'll unseal his mine if he'll unseal his."
First, that won't fly. The media whores will eat him alive.
Second, are there Dean supporters who can think critically and
who are bothered by the fact that Dean wants to hide his records?

Why does he want to hide his records?

Remember, this is nothing like the intensity of questioning
he'll get if he makes it to the GE.
Don't make me or the message the enemy. We have to have
a candidate that can survive the brutal KKKarling they
will get in the GE.

They're just waiting to spring these issues on Dean.
Why do you think they've held off doing so?

[littlejoe]

32. Much ado about nothing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

47. and on raising taxes.

she-bear's brother and his wife won't vote for him. we are working on them but it's not going to change their thinking. they have declared that there is no way they will vote for a tax increase.

[library_max]

34. Three cheers and a kick!

[Tela Zasloff]

35. Dean Anti-War? Not Exactly.

DEAN ANTI-WAR? NOT EXACTLY.

Howard Dean is running a TV ad in Iowa that raises questions about Dean, not his opponents. Says Dean on a small town street, “I opposed the war in Iraq.” That simple statement, coupled with his constant claim that his opponents voted for the war and therefore are to blame for it, has been the gas driving Dean to front-runner status in some of the polls in the Democratic campaign for the presidency.

Dean promotes himself as different and better than his opponents with his claim that he is the anti-war candidate. This may look like good political strategy—given the anger at Bush’s lies and mishandling of the war—but when it doesn’t square with the facts, Dean’s personal integrity is in question.

Here are the facts:
1. Dean was not anti-war preceding the Iraq War Resolution vote in October 2002, although he stated repeatedly the next year that he opposed the war “from the beginning” .
On 9/4/02 , he did say, “Bush needs to first make the case, and he has not done that.” But by Sept. 8, Bush went all out to do just that, with the administration’s disinformation campaign to convince America that 9/11 could happen again with Iraqi nuclear weapons .

2. Dean was not anti-war two weeks before the vote.
On Face the Nation, September 30, Dean said, when asked what the president had
to prove about Iraq, “I don’t think he really has to prove anything. I think that most Americans, including myself, will take the president’s word for it.” And on CBS News that same day, Dean was asked, what if Saddam Hussein had the means to give WMDs to a terrorist group? He answered, “Well, that’s correct, that would certainly be grounds for us to intervene, and if we had to do so unilaterally, we could do that."

3. After the Iraq War Resolution vote and for the next few months, Dean supported the Biden/Lugar resolution and proposed scenarios for unilateral war.
On January 31, 2003, the LA Times reported, “If Bush presents what
considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization.” Evidently Dean was persuaded because. . .
On February 10 Dean said, “Action with the U.N. is where we should be aiming at right now. We should be going back and setting a timeline. . . .I’ve chosen 60 days. . . Look, Saddam has to be disarmed. Everybody has to understand that.”
On February 20, Dean said to salon.com ("as I’ve said about eight times today") "that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn’t, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.”
On February 25, PBS News Hour, Dean said, “If Saddam refuses, for example, to destroy the missiles. . ., then the U.N. is going to have an obligation to disarm him. If he were , I would advocate unilateral action.”

Then, when Bush broke his word to Congress and the American people by rushing to war, Dean came out strongly against the war, attacking the other candidates who voted for the war resolution--a decision he didn’t have to make. Now Dean claims repeatedly that he clearly saw through Bush’s lies from the beginning and that he was anti-war all along. For example, on MSNBC Hard Ball, 12/1/03, he said that while the other candidates “were in favor of this resolution,. . . .I was not. If I came to a different conclusion than they did, it seems to me that their kind of foreign policy experience is not the kind we want in the White House and mine is.”

What kind of foreign policy experience is his kind? It amounts to no real experience in foreign policy, but rather the simple-minded and less-than-truthful positions of an ambitious politician. We get enough of that with our present president.

Tela Zasloff, Williamstown, MA

[TLM]

38. Oh look another noob dean basher for my ignore file...

2. Dean was not anti-war two weeks before the vote.
On Face the Nation, September 30, Dean said, when asked what the president had
to prove about Iraq, “I don’t think he really has to prove anything. I think that most Americans, including myself, will take the president’s word for it.”


Why not quote the next line? Maybe because Dean then said that Bush still had not made the case for war?



And on CBS News that same day, Dean was asked, what if Saddam Hussein had the means to give WMDs to a terrorist group? He answered, “Well, that’s correct, that would certainly be grounds for us to intervene, and if we had to do so unilaterally, we could do that."


Why not quote the question? Because the question was if there was proof that Saddam was giving weapons to terrorists would that be ground for war.

If Dean is so bad, why do you have to lie about his quotes?




3. After the Iraq War Resolution vote and for the next few months, Dean supported the Biden/Lugar resolution and proposed scenarios for unilateral war.
On January 31, 2003, the LA Times reported, “If Bush presents what
considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization.”


Then Dean pointed out that Bush had not presented such evidence.


Evidently Dean was persuaded because. . .
On February 10 Dean said, “Action with the U.N. is where we should be aiming at right now. We should be going back and setting a timeline. . . .I’ve chosen 60 days. . . Look, Saddam has to be disarmed. Everybody has to understand that.”


What part of action "with the U.N." did you not comprehend?


"On February 20, Dean said to salon.com ("as I’ve said about eight times today") "that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn’t, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.”

And two lines prior to that in the Salon piece Dean clearly said that Bush HAD NOT MADE THE CASE FOR WAR.


On February 25, PBS News Hour, Dean said, “If Saddam refuses, for example, to destroy the missiles. . ., then the U.N. is going to have an obligation to disarm him. If he were , I would advocate unilateral action.”

Why chop up the quotes if they say what you claim... why not link to the source? Do you even know the sources or are you just repeating somebody else's garbage attacks?

[opihimoimoi]

41. Dean is not perfect, no one is. The question comes down to::

Is a Flawed Dean still better than a Flawed Bush? And I happen think Deans Major Flaw Count is lower much lower than Bushies is.

Bushes Major Flaw Count is one of the Highest in the History of Leadership in Democracies.

Dean shows a lot of Promise to have a Much Lower Flaw Count.

Come, we look the larger picture, mo ono. More Tasty

[mzmolly]

44. More quotes taken out of context.... amazing

clue #1. Dean supporters know he's not 'anti-war' he's pro-common f-ing sense.