Fighting during the Primaries: A Primer

[WilliamPitt]

VOODOO ECONOMICS: Was Bush Right All Along?

Bush Had to Pay the Price for Reagan's Deficits

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/2783

Had Gerald Ford not suggested that he serve in a kind of co-presidency with Ronald Reagan, George Bush would not have become vice president. Bush had already been dismissed by Reagan as a "wimp" after their bizarre "battle over the mike" during the New Hampshire primary in 1980. In Pennsylvania, as Bush aide Peter Teeley recalls it, "we wanted to separate ourselves from Reagan on economic matters and one of the criticisms that came up later of the Reagan economic plan was you couldn't cut taxes, increase defense spending to the degree that he had proposed, and not cut the entitlement programs, and still balance the budget." And Bush, Teeley added, "didn't believe it either." So he picked up Teeley's phrase and called the idea "voodoo economics." Still, even after their leader surrendered to his more pragmatic instincts and added his rival to the ticket, Reaganauts knew a slur when they heard one.

Once he became the vice presidential candidate, Bush dutifully got on board.

(WRP comment: Ugly fights there. Who won that race?)

======================



Chicago. 1968. 'Nuff said.

======================

'Push polling' takes center stage in Bush-McCain South Carolina fight; Dems campaign in California
February 10, 2000
Web posted at: 7:04 p.m. EST (0004 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/02/10/campaign.wrap/

The tone of the gathering changed after a woman in the audience told McCain that her 13-year-old son was told that the Arizona senator is a "liar and a cheat," during a telephone "push poll" conducted the night before.

"Push-polling" refers to a practice where callers represent themselves as a non-partisan member of a polling organization, then provide negative information about a candidate in an effort to discourage voting.

"I was so mad last night I didn't sleep," said Donna Duren, who described her son as being "on the verge of tears" over the experience.

"I promise you, I have never and will never have anything to do with that," McCain replied. He met briefly with Duren after the meeting and promised to call her son.

(One of the ugliest races in history)

===============================

Bill Clinton
1992: Road To The White House

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/democrat/clinton/campaign.92.shtml

Then the Gennifer Flowers story broke. On January 17, the New York Post, New York Daily News, the Boston Herald and the Fox TV Network began reporting a story from an upcoming issue of the tabloid "Star." The story quoted Larry Nichols' allegations that Clinton had had affairs with at least five women. Nichols had first made the allegations in 1990. Questioned by reporters, Clinton called the story "totally bogus." After both Bill and Hillary denounced the story during a joint appearance in Bedford, New Hampshire on January 18, most major news outlets picked up the "Star" story and the denials. On January 23, the "Star" leaked an upcoming article in which an Arkansas State employee, Gennifer Flowers, alleged (in a paid interview) she had a 12-year affair with Clinton. The next day, Clinton said "The allegations in the Star are not true...She's obviously taken money to change her story."

(snip)

On February 6, The Wall Street Journal published an article saying Clinton had received a Vietnam draft deferment for a ROTC program he never joined. The article said Clinton was granted the deferment while studying as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford University in England in the summer of 1969. (Later, it was revealed Clinton had actually received an induction notice while in England in April 1969). He promised to join ROTC when he returned to the University of Arkansas to study law. The article says the promise exempted him from the draft in September and October of 1969, two months when he likely would have been called up. By October, Clinton had changed his mind about entering ROTC. He subjected himself to possible induction, but the draft lottery was about to take effect and Clinton's lottery number was high enough that he was never called to serve.

=====================

I could go on, but you get the point. Primary season is a savage time. This has, to date, been tame by comparison.

Oh...and DU is not America.

[slinkerwink]

1. still no excuse in taking a candidate's quotes out of context

when that candidate is of your own party.

[WilliamPitt]

2. Again, I called it like I saw it

and am still not sold on the explanation.

Now here's the point where you bring up Kerry. Go ahead. I'm here.

[slinkerwink]

16. why did Kerry say he had voted against Medicare when he really hadn't?

I remember he said that in the next-to-last debate.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. you mean the medicare bill that he filibustered against?

Yeah, I'd say Kerry was against it.

[slinkerwink]

19. then I concede my point.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

18. nope, and that was a childish remark

[VelmaD]

33. Oh and the Dean supporters and their...

little "poop" comments aren't childish? :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

43. Poop

:hurts:

NOTE: This in no way detrats from the value of Will's thread. This Poop was directed as the response to a single post, not the thread.

[VelmaD]

51. Thank you

for proving my point. You can "poop" all you want - it's still an immature response that adds not one whit to the level of discourse. All it does is make you look childish.

[La_Serpiente]

53. here here

:toast:

[RetroLounge]

90. Poop

eom

[Selwynn]

62. Forgive me: please stop making baseless and dishonest claims about others

I just thought the former post was shorter and more to the point, but oh well.

So to elaborate, I find your statement to be ignorant and without merit and desire that you cease speaking on the subject in question for those reasons. Will's post was far from what you attempt to make it out to be.

I hope I have made my meaning more clear in the spirit of fair minded disagreement and honest difference of opinon. Thank you for flying Selwynn Airlines, have a nice day.

[tameszu]

84. Touche

The same goes for Dean, I would argue.

As you have already admitted in your own thread on this subject when I challenged you, Dean deserves no credit for being any wiser regarding Iraq than any of the other candidates, as he did not object to the final version of the IWR until well after Congress approved it, when it became apparent that Bush would go to war even though Saddam admitted the inspectors. Given your admission, maybe you should lay off (I would go so far as to say apologize to) Will.

Of course, even if Dean isn't really any more anti-Iraq war than a Kerry, Dean has still proven himself to be a better candidate than Kerry by virtue of the former's movement and (not separable from the first factor) his proven greater ability to be ruthlessly effective in attacking his opponents--even if they are Dems; one hopes that after all this, he will be able to work the same mojo against Bush. But from perspective right now, Eric Alterman's original comment on Kerry on his blog was closer to the point--it wasn't his vote on the IWR, so much as his incompetence and lack of charisma and energy on the campaign trail that makes him a less than optimal choice for the nomination.

[HFishbine]

3. Chicago '68

or DU '03?

[rucky]

4. Are the mods going to beat us senseless?

or is there any sense left to beat?

[retread]

6. NOT even close!!!

*

[oasis]

7. good one.

:-)

[WilliamPitt]

8. When I smell the tear gas and see the billy clubs,

I'll believe it. Otherwise, I'll maintain my opinion that this is an internet message board.

[janx]

10. It's starting to feel that way around here.

I have essays to grade. They are kinder to my eye than this stuff is, so I will look forward to the grading process.

[littlejoe]

5. What is YOUR agenda?

[WilliamPitt]

9. To make you wonder what my agenda is.

:freak:

[slinkerwink]

22. ahhh, it's to support Kerry by tearing down the front-runner

real smart strategy there for a campaign that's faltering in the water.

[WilliamPitt]

24. How does one 'falter in the water'?

One sinks or swims, or floats. Falters? You can falter on the road, I guess.

Work on those mixed metaphors. :)

[slinkerwink]

30. falter means to "move waveringly or hesitatingly"

and there are different ways of swimming in the water---right now, Kerry's barely managing to stay afloat at which point he's "faltering"

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

13. "Primary season is a savage time"

True, but a person of your stature should proceed with caution, you may be influencing some who are on the fence to vote for Nader in 04. Remember the last election came down to 500 votes Will. You may do damage that can't be undone.

There were two things that kept me sane during the madness of the past few years.

1. Howard Dean
2. Truth out

As I said before, you have a responsibility most of us here don't have. You need to take the high road Will. Always...

I followed Dean through it all, I know his position on the war, have all along...which is why I can't be a party to the 'revisionist' agenda of the imbittered Mr. Kerry. I'm sorry if your not convinced.

[WilliamPitt]

14. HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

I'm gonna make Nader more powerful?

Oh come ON. Your email was better.

Taking the high road = not voicing an opinion, basically. Sorry. No sale.

[slinkerwink]

20. if you're such an esteemed member of DU, perhaps you should stay out

of this primary fight, and then work for the Dem nominee after the primaries. That's what the moderators are doing.

[WilliamPitt]

21. I guess I'm not that esteemed

because I'm in it until the balloons drop in Boston, darlin'. :)

[slinkerwink]

29. I'm in it too, but it's ridiculous to take quotes out of context

that's one thing I cannot forgive you for unless you acknowledge that.

[WilliamPitt]

31. Keep beating that drum

and I will somehow struggle on without your forgiveness.

[slinkerwink]

47. heh

[Walt Starr]

57. How about building your candidate up

instead of trying to drag the front runner down?

You may actually convince me to switch again. Dumping on Dean certainly does nothing ut firm up my resolve.

The Clark threads that have been positive have been turning my head lately. You might want to take a cue from them. Clark is looking mighty good to me right now because I've been hearing a lot of positive things about him from the Clark supporters. Of course, I have to Poop on a few posts when Deanies come into the threads and try to drag Clark down, but pooping on the negative posts has become a fun pastime for me of late.

[dobak]

91. Tearing the lead candidate down is the definition of politics...

Anyone ever read about the first couple elections in this country? Adams and Jefferson didn't talk for years afterwards (they were very close friends prior to the election).

Anyway, as long as the attacks are about the candidates policies and/or message.... Anything goes.

That's politics and it will never change.

[bicentennial_baby]

25. Oh that's rich....

:eyes: Will can and should say whatever the hell he feels, just like anyone else here.

[eileen_d]

34. No way! He's a Hollywood liberal elite

and should STAY OUT OF POLITICS! </sarcasm>

Seriously, Will, say whatever the hell you want.

[mzmolly]

35. Will isn't "just like eveybody else"

He is a powerful voice in the 'movement' for change. Yes he should say what he wants, but he should do so with 'caution'.

[eileen_d]

38. You are giving him WAAAAY too much power.

By the same argument, Gore shouldn't have endorsed Dean... Gore being a powerful voice in the movement for change, and all. (I don't have any problems with the Gore endorsement, BTW)

[mzmolly]

40. Actually I agree that Gore shouldn't have endorsed anyone.

But note that Gore didn't tear down any other candidates in the process.

[eileen_d]

41. Well, then we can agree to disagree.

[mzmolly]

45. Once again..

:hi:

[VelmaD]

46. Make up your mind...

what you want Will to be. (Although frankly I don't think he cares what anyone wants him to be - he's just Will.)

He didn't get to where he is by being cautious. You cannot be a "powerful voice" for change and be cautious. If he was supporting your candidate would you want him to be more cautious?

[mzmolly]

49. Actually I would want him to be 'cautious' regardless ... so the answer is

YES.

[mzmolly]

23. Voice your opinion all you want...

but realize that your voice is more powerful then you may think.

The thread you posted about Dean yesterday was worthy of the 'Enquirer' Will. Your better than that.

[WilliamPitt]

26. Your opinion.

And it is appreciated. But since your opinions also seem to have me throwing elections to Nader, I'm going to keep this grain of salt handy.

[mzmolly]

28. Throwing elections for Nader was a catastrophic prediction

on my part. However, mark my word...there will be some you can't get back in the end, just know the part you may have played.

And, if this election comes down to 500 votes, you can ponder that with your grain of salt. :)

Respectfully yours,
Mzmolly

[eileen_d]

36. Will Pitt... the new DIEBOLD.

This is getting ridiculous

[mzmolly]

37. If you don't want to acknowlege that Mr. Pitt is more influential here

than you or I, so be it.

[eileen_d]

39. see post 38. n/t

[WilliamPitt]

44. Here = not much of anywhere, really

DU is not America. Understand that.

[mzmolly]

52. I do Will, but there are 35,000 members and countless observers

including Limbaugh. Imagine him reading some of your posts on air? Would you want that? :shrug: You are a very respected/noted author, and need to behave as such :spank: though I know It's no fun, and I'm not your mama ;) please consider what I have said.

[Eloriel]

81. I have to agree

Unfortunately you've sacrificed some of your privacy and (obviously) anonymity by virtue of whatever level of fame you have attained -- and will attain since google keeps all sorts of our secrets. You ARE risking your reputation wih your pugilistic verbal jousts and when you go askew of good journalistic ethics by cherry-picking quotes in order to make a (misrepresented) point.

I have no problem with you supporting Kerry. (Well, I do, but at the same time I vigorously uphold your right to support whoever you like.)

I just think you need to watch your reputation when you are tempted to get into verbal fist fights. I wrote about this in a private email to you, and believe me public standing, reputation, etc. CAN and will suffer when you try to resolve that tension in the easy, typical way. It's set up that way: call it a trap.

You have a voice like a nightingale, Will. Please give some thought to not sullying it or your reputation.

By all means, support and fight for Kerry -- but do it cleanly, honestly, and without this pugilistic sparring you are sometimes prone to here at DU which makes you look NOT like that amazing writer with the unparalleled, soaring voice and vision to match, but a common street fighter and thug.

Eloriel

[mot78]

15. You're right about Primary attacks being normal, but 2004 is differant

in 1980 there wasn't a Liberal propaganda machine trying to spin Reagan, and we didn't have a bunch of angry white male pundits on cable talking about how Reagan would destroy the New Deal and provoke WW III with the Soviets (if only we did). THe Repugs have something now that neither party had in the past: control of the media and their ability to premptively caricature.

[MuseRider]

32. You are right and

that makes it all the more important that we know what we are doing. I want the good stuff and the bad stuff, I want to be able to know it all so I can talk my way out of any situation. This is going to be very ugly. Where they are mean we have always relied on our wits. These days even a quick wit and knowledge are looked down on and suspect to many. We have to be hardened and ready. Look, I am very thin skinned but willing to get a few scars to be ready for this. They will come out swinging and if we are not ready we are dead before we begin. It has been worse but I think we are looking at something we have never even imagined. I am ready, I know what they will do with my candidate, I have learned it right here. Now, we should all pay attention so we can advise the other supporters if our candidate gets the nomination. I say we need to put up with this and learn from it but that is just my opinion.

[goodhue]

27. agree wholeheartedly

I've been really puzzled about all the handwringing on DU. Jousting amongst the primary candidates is a healthy and normal part of democracy. The media on the other had have become much worse in filtering the differences away and focusing solely on polls, money and endorsements with little regard for issues or policy.

[MuseRider]

42. Yes

Democracy is messy and it is a lot of work, not entertainment.

[rucky]

48. It's just business

Life isn't fair
That's just the way it is
Get over it
Desperate times call for desperate measures
It's a dog-eat-dog world

Maybe these phrases are true, but that doesn't mean you have to jump right in and perpetuate the social darwinist mythology of alpha-dog America.

Sorry if this seems unfair, Will, but your language just struck a pet peeve of mine. It's great you've made your choice, and pretty good career move to boot. By all means give us your facts and analysis.

But please stick to your principles and spare us the bullshit rationalization. You doth protest too much. Quit explaining yourself and support Kerry already.

[WilliamPitt]

50. That's a bit strange

Most everyone will explain their support of a candidate in personal terms. Happens here every day, most emotively.

[rucky]

56. If you truly see nothing wrong with the "savage nature" of primaries

then I made an incorrect assumption.

[WilliamPitt]

63. I see the savage nature of the primaries as being

about as old as the republic. Go look up some of the crazy shit Jefferson said about Adams, and vice versa. If we're doing something wrong, we've been doing it wrong for 227 years.

[rucky]

79. It just is, eh?

very zenlike.

but do you think it's good or bad for the process? I'll agree that anything worthwhile is created after some degree of struggle. Fair play, civility & good sportsmanship would be an improvement, tho.

[WilliamPitt]

87. 227 years

is a good argument that it is healthy. The fact that the framers organized it this way is another good argument.

[VelmaD]

58. Haven't you figured it out yet Will?

You have to be perfect all the time. You have to say things that we all agree with 100 percent of the time. You aren't allowed to have feelings, especially if they don't agree with ours.

But, you have to be a passionate advocate for...something. You have to stir us all to action. You have to be eloquent and articulate and ON FIRE all the time. You have to change the fucking world. But you have to do it without upsetting any of us.

:eyes:

<sarcasm off>

I like you just the way you are. :-)

[rucky]

74. Am I being an asshole?

I don't think I'm being an asshole, here.

<sarcasm not necessary>

Judges?

[VelmaD]

80. Wasn't aimed at you personally

Sorry. Was mostly just teasing Will a little bit about how he gets treated around here sometimes.

[dave29]

54. I love this

an entire thread devoted to how it is ok for us to tear each other a new one.

Kudos, Will.

I'd like to point something very important out:

in all of the cases you pointed out above, irreperable harm was done to the candidates. For Bush Sr, the perception that he was a wimp, which he overcame only by invading another country. For Clinton, an avenue for Republicans to attack him ceaselessly. For McCain, he lost South Carolina.

Yes, it's a tough business, but we shouldn't eat our own, at least not in such a way as we are doing it now.

[Armstead]

55. You're being condescending and it's boring

Primary 101, eh?

Why not just tell us how greast you think Kerry is, instead of giving us a lesson in politics while telling us how bad Howard Dean is?

[WilliamPitt]

64. Or you could hit the nifty little x next to this thread

and stop trying to tell me how to act.

[dave29]

66. Strong words

from a man who just gave us a primer on how to behave during a primary.

:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

68. Find me where I *told* you where to behave

Perhaps this is here because a lot of people are freaking out that different candidate supporters are...gasp...fighting with each other. Dread the thought. Fighting never happens in primaries.

Perhaps.

[dave29]

75. My apologies Will

you didn't tell us how to behave. You merely insinuated it.

The top definition for primer (aside from paint) at dictionary.com

primer
1) An elementary textbook for teaching children to read.

[Armstead]

69. You're too interesting for the little "X"

One of the things I admired about you is your avoidence of the internal mudwrestling. But now you're soundiong like one of those "oh you lefties are so unrealistic and naive" types.

Pump for Kerry all you want. And I certainly know better then to try to tell you how to act. ;)

But in the interest of the larger cause, you'd do a lot better for Kerry and yourself if you try to follow your own past policies and not help instigate this kind of flame fest.

[WilliamPitt]

70. That's an interesting issue right there

Are they 'flame fests' because the issues discussed are totally unworthy and inflammatory...or are they 'flame fests' because the guardians of some candidates flip out when their candidate gets question?

[Armstead]

78. Guardians or supporters?

There's different types. Some of them are "temporary" DU visitors who are only here to push their candidate and slam all the otehrs. Some people get passionate about their candidate.

And some of it that it's just more "fun" to bash and counter-bash than to try and keep it civil or serious....(That's one reason the Green Dem flamefests are a perennial hit on DU.)

But a lot of people are trying debate the candidates without getting heated about it. Normally I would put you in that category. That's why this kind of thread bugs me......Just my opinion, obviously, but you're better at being a uniter than a divider.

Obviously, pointing out differences is part of the process. But I don't like hearing the candidates try to drag each otehr down personally, and I don't like seeing supporters doing it either....It's an easy temptation to fall into (I've done it myself). But it is ultimately helping to pertpetuate GOP talking points, and setting up needless tensions on our side that'll be difficult to heal after the primaries.

[VelmaD]

72. Do we know the same Will Pitt?

'Cause I'm trying to remember a time when his posts weren't the cause of a significant number of "flame-fests" and I'm drawing a blank. :-)

[Zomby Woof]

59. I was hoping DU *was* America

"I'm Idaho!"

[VelmaD]

61. Zomby, you're a nut

*snort*

*smooches*

Thanks, I needed that.

[MuseRider]

71. Gotta say it again

you crack me up! There are several of you around here that make me smile almost without fail and this time of the year I really need that. THANKS!

[Zomby Woof]

76. You're welcome!

GD needs some laughs! :-)

[La_Serpiente]

60. This thread is a keeper

*click* = SAVE

[Paragon]

65. A little Sun Tzu will clear ALL this up

"He will triumph who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

Politics isn't always backyard wrestling, Will. More often, it's kissing babies, compromises, and other unpleasant things.

Use the "fight" and "war" metaphors judiciously, or you'll end up sounding like a Bush. To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven. Turn, turn, turn...

Eyes on the prize, people...eyes on the prize.

[stevedeshazer]

67. I HATE your candidate

And I LOVE mine. Whooo-hooo! Bring 'em on!

</sarcasm>

Some of you are beginning to taste good...

And not one vote has been cast. Not a one.

I'd love to see a big 'ol pissing match in Boston.

[La_Serpiente]

73. *Snarf*

LMFAO

ROTFF

[Patriot_Spear]

77. Huh. I wonder whatever happened to, "Anger is a Gift"?

"Anger is a Gift"; it used to the signature line of someone on here. In fact it was an empowering phrase I took to heart- because truly a justifiable anger in some cases will produce positive results where a reserved demeanor will not.

Dean supporters get angry over the Bush* occupation and it motivates them to push a formerly third tier, non-annointed candidate all the way to unrivaled leader- and that's good.

Dean supporters get angry at the unrelenting attacks from fellow Democrats against Dean, and they respond aggressively (like before)- and now that's bad.

Apparently my anger isn't nearly descriminating enough.

[WilliamPitt]

86. Anger is a gift for everyone

Not just Dean supporters.

[Duder]

82. I agree up to a point..

Kerry has about 30 days to try to turn it around. Thus, attacks such as Will's on the frontrunner are a normal part of the political process. However, if the national polls in January show a clear frontrunner, then that will likely be the nominee (9 out of past 10) and so dragging the "fighting the fight" out longer than January will only aid Bush. My reason is based on a predictive model developed by Professor William G. Mayer and I feel that this election is too important for a long unnecessary battle among ourselves.

[HuckleB]

83. Yup.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

85. EVERyBODY PLEaSe STOP piCKinG oN WiLl pItt!?!

Put yourself in his shoe. Imagine
being stuck with Sen John Kerry as you
candidate as the waves close over the
Senator's distinguish tall wavy head
and Linconlques features for the third
time. If I was for Kerry dangnambit I
would take things out in context and
rearrange the deck chairs and get Zen
or do what any ever other else SAVAGE
things I had to do to fight back and try
to get at that odd bad mad blinky Doctor
from Vermontylvania and help Sen Kerry
to not falter and sink forever for the
last time. In fact, just because of all
the picking on Will Pitt and because
he fights back valaintly standing on
the sinking distinquish sad head of Sen
Kerry, I am changing my vote to Sen Kerry
at least for to day.

[curse10]

89. LMAO!

:hug:

[JustJoe]

92. "the sinking distinquish sad head of Sen Kerry"

*snerfle*

[David Zephyr]

88. Willy, I'm Only Waiting For When You Kiss Howard Dean's Ring.

Which you will properly do, of course.

Until then, I will, in my most generous spirit, patiently abide your death rattle and last gasps of protestations from the moribund Kerry campaign.

And I'll hand you the hanky the night JK pulls out of the race...and see that you get your well deserved group hug.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: