Other thing bothering me: Are Dems mean enough to compete with Repukes?

[Wetzelbill]

Some are. I don't think anybody would mess around with say, James Carville too much, but all in all most of us are above the fray. We like to trust our intellect, elequent oratory, grassroots development and good sound public policy. However, it's tough to be above it all when good candidates are getting push polled, or somebody like Max Cleland is getting hammered ruthlessly in a totally uncivil, unwarranted manner. Diebold. PNAC. Tom Delay. Karl Rove. Newt Gingrich. We are talking about some mean, awful people. Nasty. Willing to crack heads, cut throats or do whatever has to do. Meanwhile, Ted Kennedy or Robert Byrd might speak up and kick some ass on the Senate floor, yet Dems essentially stay out of the icky stuff. Do we need to pull "Willie Horton" type stunts or start getting ugly like Rove did to John McCain in South Carolina during the last primary cycle? Are progressives -liberals whatever we call ourselves- destined for second place because nice guys finish last?

So, in order to make an omelette, are we going to have to go out and crack a few eggs or what? I'm not sure if I could ever do that myself. More thoughts on this?

[jmaier]

1. Probably.

I suspect this time out they probably are.

[Cocoa]

2. oh yeah

if the whores think they've been seeing "Bush hatred" they've got another thing coming.

The whores are going to get their own share as well, the dems know they're the enemy too.

[mark0rama]

3. Not sure what to say, Wetzelbill

Part of me wants to give as good as we get, but when I see your avatar of Paul Wellstone on the page, it's like my conscience looking back at me. I've always admired how well he could fight while taking the high road.

Sorry to have to put it this way, but WWPD?

[Wetzelbill]

4. Precisely

I want to be mean as hell, however, guys like Wellstone and now Kucinich have so much honor and principle. It's something I wrestle with a lot because I plan on working in public policy. I'm mainly a writer, but politics has me enthralled. I just might be too nice for it all. I'm perfectly capable of defending myself with lots of anger, but to just ad hominem attack somebody below the belt, I just don't know.

[bearfartinthewoods]

15. have you been gere the last couple weeks?

i don't think mean dems are in short supply.

[slinkerwink]

5. yep, we're certainly being mean to each other right now

[ldf]

14. that was my first thought....

if anyone is looking for mean democrats, all they need to do is check that hotbed of meanness, the GD forum of DU.

[Skwmom]

6. One of the reasons I like Clark - he can be tough as nails

when he has to, he doesn't back down from a fight (even if it will cost him as evidenced by the Kosovo conflict with the pentagon brass), but he is NOT a bully.

[PurityOfEssence]

7. Undeniably, that's a drawback

Couple this with the essential premise of liberalism/progressivism--that nobody has all the answers, and everyone has a right to be heard--and there's always a tactical advantage for the conservatives. We will allow them to speak, and even concede points to them when they're correct; they do not recognize the right of anyone to disagree with them, and they already know all the answers. This is also why religion is the natural bedfellow of conservatism: we have the answer, the subject is closed, so shut up. Extremists (Falwell, Coulter) take it to the logical conclusion that those who don't accept the truth (heretics, traitors) simply don't deserve to exist. Whether Dr. Jerry or Witchypoo think those inferiors should be killed or not, they definitely think that non-allies should DEFINITELY be relegated to--at best--the status of second-class citizenry. With us or against us, my way or the highway, it's all the same.

The politeness needs to be moderated somewhat, but we can't just become screaming haters, either. I'm up for some serious hammering, though, and it's long past time. They must be shot down every time they try to put words in our mouths at the start of their statements; too many talkshow pundits start with "well, since George Bush brought honor and integrity back into government..." before making their point. They have to be stopped there and then. The catchphrases like "the excesses of the nineties" need to be interrupted and called out for the cryptofascist bashing that they are. Whenever they say "global climate change" they should be interrupted and corrected with "global warming". "Family flexibility" should be corrected as "abolishing overtime pay". "Corporate shenanigans" should be called "Criminal fraud", and on down the line.

Democrats crave backbone; that's the real explanation for Dean's success. Whether he's able to keep his recklessness in check is anybody's guess; this, and whether his brand of "centrism" is the best we can do are the true questions we have to answer, and we have to answer them now.

[Wetzelbill]

12. gosh, nicely said

[stevedeshazer]

19. Best answer yet

Anyone reading this who still believes in the mythical "liberal media" should note how the terms of the debate are highjacked by the right and become part of the mainstream dialogue.

POE has some great examples in this post.

It is time to call things as they are. The radical right foes this every day, it is long past time to hit back.

Good original post, wetzelbill.

[Padraig18]

8. Dean is ready to kick ass and take names.

I think Clark is, too, and some of the others may be capable of it. :)

[LuminousX]

9. No, Democratic leaders can't be mean enough

When Democrats try to "get mean" they come off looking silly and contemptuous. When Democrats choose to be strong and forceful though, they are immensely successful each and every time. Truman wasn't mean. FDR wasn't mean. Kennedy wasn't mean. Johnson was mean, but that was just his nature, he got more done through the Johnson treatment than by making legislators talk to him while he was on the commode.

[Killarney]

10. Yes and no

Yes, we're angry enough, but no I don't think we're mean enough and I don't think that we would resort to the dirty tactics that we know Rove is planning right now.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

11. I think we're going to have to get used to getting our hands dirty

A lot of why Dean is my top choice is for this reason. Say what you want about the guy, but he WILL hit back. Hard.

[ieoeja]

13. They're urban.

Plenty of meanness among those "northern, big city" Democrats. It really isn't any different than the nastiness you get among the Republicans, but they have a different accent. So where Republican meanies sound like regular guys outside the cities, city meanies sound just like that: meanies.

For real nastiness you should have seen our local Democratic Committee Member election in 2000. The city alderman, wanting to also head up the party within his ward and with the backing of the mayor, ran against the incumbent. He then had the temerity to send muscle around to the polling places to get rid of the incumbent's people handing out campaign literature. You would think Muhammad Ali's campaigning on behalf of the incumbent would have served as a reminder that the incumbent had several decades experience as a youth boxing coach with several decades worth of alumni he could call upon to counter this tactic. Bar I hang out in is owned by one of the alderman's assistants, and employees close relatives of the incumbent, so I got to hear a lot of amusing play-by-play.

Another night I was sitting in the bar watching election results for the local ward with "90% of the precincts reporting" at which point the guy I had been talking with through several drinks reached in his pocket, pulled out the results for the other 10% of the precincts and said, "oops, looks like I'd better get the last vote tallies in". And you worry about BBV. I was actually quite upset when I found out this guy was carrying the official vote tallies around in his pocket. I didn't mind the stopping off for a drink (or six), but he's a PACKERS fan!?!

Chicago where the three biggest sports franchises are the Bears, the Cubs, and the Democratic Party.

[mlawson]

16. They could be, but they won't.

Damn! Why does daschle's face keep coming to mind while I type this???
ARRRRRRGH!!!!!

[proud patriot]

17. Well I'm mean enough I'm lean enough

However only in Repuke eyes cause all I have is the truth
and I use it . Honest that's what I am repukes just think
it's mean to be honest :shrug:

[AntiCoup2K4]

18. Just call me Ann Coulter without the gender identity disorder....

If they ever get that "Liberal TV network" up and running, I'd be more than happy to go on the air and do some character assassination on the Bush Criminal Empire :evilgrin:

[Turkw]

20. It's not the candidates that have to get down and dirty, they just have to

be strong and tough.

It's us how have to get mean, vocal, and active.

Bush does little of his own dirty work, Rove does the back room stuff, the laundry list of repub hitmen is extensive. We have to hit at all levels- Bush, Rove, Drudge, Rush, FOXlies, etc.

We have to write to editors and reporters and screem our heads off, call them for every slanted story, praise them when they get it right, push them to do their jobs and report, do the research ourselves and prod the reporters to actualy do some themselves.

Local, state, and national, give the Repubs hell!!
part of what they call "grassroots" is really local level political machines, all talking the party line.

[piece sine]

21. do you believe it's all one-sided?

you list some nasty critters, indeed, but it's not the the Dems. don't have own pitbulls. You ever seen Henry Waxman tearing somebody a new one? Washington, D.C. is a million shades of grey and only thing white is the marble.

[angee_is_mad]

22. Hell no

and it pisses me off sometimes. Heck you get tired of turning the other cheek all the time. I am not saying, tell lies or go hard core negative, but come with your game face on to the battle.
This party is so focused on going to the center to get democrats who had left the party to vote republican. If we want to be republican like, take what they do better than us. That is when they are in a fight, they come to fight and make no apologies for it.
The only republican that I know of who has ever come close to apologizing for being republican is Colin Powell. Lord knows he is paying for it now.
On the other hand, how many democrats do we know are more republican than Bush. I mucha it is more than one.

[deminflorida]

23. Well just looking at the smear campaign that's been launched

at Dean, I'd have to say...

Hell Yes.

[kodi]

24. no they would rather lose gracefully & look moral instead of win ugly

which is why the GOP runs the show.

believing they have the moral high ground appears to satisfy most democrats into believing that because their cause is just they will overcome. as if a just God determines history?

unfortunately history does not seem to reflect that and i wonder if democrats have been poisoned by frank capra movies.

its really quite funny because many of the same democrats who scoff at the idea of God working in the world believe that good triumphs over evil because good itself is innately superior.

some joke.