Dean picks up where Clinton left off

[Eloriel]

Well, not entirely, but it's a darn good point made re the party, AND what I like to call The Dean Mustique:

Blog: http://www.blogforamerica.com/

TAP article: http://www.prospect.org/print/V15/1/tomasky-m.html

It's also what I and so many others have been trying to explain to DUers about one of the things that makes Dean really and truly different:



After the bottom fell out from under the Democratic party in 1988, Tomasky argues in today's must-read, it was Bill Clinton who rebuilt the party ideologically and as a fundraising machine:

But there is one way in which Clinton did not rebuild the Democratic Party: from the ground up....

This is where Howard Dean comes in.... Clinton rebuilt... the superstructure. Dean is rebuilding the base....

There's a tricky thing about this rebuilding stage, though: It excludes party insiders. It has nothing to do with Washington. It's no wonder that Democratic insiders, so accustomed to having complete ownership of a process like a party primary campaign, should dislike Dean and even fear him: He has stolen the process right out of their hands. He is not "of" them in any way, shape or form. In fact, his accumulating successes merely serve to emphasize their irrelevance to this rebuilding stage....

At this point, after he has amassed the armies of small donors and bloggers and volunteers, blocking Dean is not blocking one man. It's blocking the hopes of millions of Democrats who—understand the importance of this—would walk through fire for a candidate for the first time in their lives. That isn't something that should be done cavalierly; in the long term, blocking the active participation of these millions may do more damage to the Democratic Party than four more years of George W. Bush.

At this point, after he has amassed the armies of small donors and bloggers and volunteers, blocking Dean is not blocking one man. It's blocking the hopes of millions of Democrats who— understand the importance of this— would walk through fire for a candidate for the first time in their lives. That isn't something that should be done cavalierly; in the long term, blocking the active participation of these millions may do more damage to the Democratic Party than four more years of George W. Bush.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

1. Did you notice Clinton said he would have voted for IWR?

Stop pretending Dean is anything close to the leader Clinton was.

[opihimoimoi]

3. If we were in a Poker Game, the Dean Hand has the best odds

And from the looks of it, he is skillful in the political game, more so than others perhaps.

He has what it takes, the Pubs are mortified.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. and we can't even see Bush's hand

well some of us can and it looks like Dean's hand is very weak.

[Demobrat]

8. Dean is not the leader Clinton was.

Dean is the leader Clinton was without the skirt-chasing.

[mzmolly]

11. There it is!!!!

:toast:

[mzmolly]

10. Don't you remember Biden Lugar is the same?!

:eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. Actually, Dean is proving to be a better leader than Clinton ever was

He raised more money than Clinton did, too. Not trying to dis Clinton, just speaking the truth.

[Zomby Woof]

19. um, not quite

Clinton served as Arkansas governor for about the same amount of time as Dean served in Vermont, but one of them was merely President of the United States for 8 years, presiding over record surpluses, jobs, growth, falling crime, rising real income...etc.

Campaigns are not merely numbers games. A sad fallacy to make when estimating the worth or even potential worth of a leader.

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. No, Dean is definitely a better leader

Clinton was a good policy maker and president, but he wasn't a great leader. A leader is someone who leads other people. Dean does that better than any politician in my lifetime. The only one that compares would be Bobby Kennedy, and I still think Dean has outdone him too.

[curse10]

22. Wow

I can't believe you would disgrace Bobby Kennedy's memory like that. Shameful.

[JohnKleeb]

27. I know

:(
Bobby did so much in his 43 years, he was for how I would like to see the democratic party, he was a man who sought justice.
"What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence or lawlessness; but love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or they be black ...
"Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world."
Bobby may have not lived long KK but he did more for the party and this nation I think than any of the candiates have. Bobby had something about him, he was special, and I dont think any of the democrats we have now can compare to him.

[curse10]

30. Dead on!

:-)

[JohnKleeb]

31. Thanks Kirsten

Bobby may have fell when he was only 43 years old but Bobby is a party hero and man for all times, I dont think I could count any of the candiates including my own in that light. Bobby was a special man, and I dont think his greatness is even on the same level as these 9.

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. I'm talking about leadership of PEOPLE

not policy and actions. There is a big difference. Has anyone before Dean ever mobilized half a million campaign volunteers and activists to work for them and donate money to them?

[curse10]

36. Well, Clinton was the leader of the free fucking world

and if Dean is so grassroots why does money matter so much?

[KaraokeKarlton]

39. Why are you getting so upset over this?

I'm stating a fact that I've heard a lot of other people say too. It's not the money itself that matters. What matters is the fact that so many people are giving theirs to Dean. No one has ever managed to inspire people enough to cause them to do that before.

[curse10]

45. Rinse. Repeat.

Yes, Dean is the greatest candidate that has ever lived.

Never mind people like Eugene Debs who got half a million votes while he was in jail. **slaps herself upside the head**

Sorry. Dean is the greatest candidate that has ever lived.

[KaraokeKarlton]

47. Now you're putting words in my mouth

He's not the greatest candidate ever, but he's probably the greateast campaigner ever. And he's definitely the best leader of people out of any presidential candidates I can recall.

[curse10]

51. Ooops. Sorry.

Dean is the best campaigner ever!
Dean is the best campaigner ever!
Dean is the best campaigner ever!
Dean is the best campaigner ever!
Dean is the best campaigner ever!
Dean is the best campaigner ever!
Dean is the best campaigner ever!
Dean is the best campaigner ever!
Dean is the best campaigner ever!

we ingrates will get it sooner or later.

[bread_and_roses]

43. George W. Bush

according to recent reports.

[KaraokeKarlton]

33. I'm not "disgracing" anyone

And I've heard plenty of people say that no one has had this kind of grassroots since Bobby Kennedy. I'm also being truthful in stating that Dean's grassroots movement is more powerful than even Bobby Kennedy's was. Dean has motivated many more people to volunteer than have ever been mobilized in the past. If you have a problem with facts, that's your problem.

[curse10]

Whatever KK

it's a wonder anyone even bothers to respond to this sort of thing. We should know better by now. KaraokeKarlton is always right about Dean. We must all support Dean, because he has lots of money. We must all support Dean because lots of other people do. Rinse. Repeat.

[KaraokeKarlton]

37. Actually, you just weren't listening to what I was saying

I am talking about Dean's success as a leader of the people. He's accomplished more than any politician in American history that I'm aware of. Nowhere did I say anyone else was bad nor did I imply that. I just said that when it comes to mobilizing, motivating and leading voters, I think Dean is proving himself to be the best as it.

[Zomby Woof]

24. get back to me

...when Dean has served 8 years as president, shows his leadership by getting Arafat on the White House lawn with the Israeli leader, passes an amazing deficit recovery plan (for which Dean wouldn't have gotten half the things done in Vermont he did without it), brokers a successful end of hostilities in Ireland, ends genocide in Bosnia... oh, I could go on, but you get the idea.

Dean does not have the qualities Clinton posseses to pull things of that stature on a global scale.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. Actually, you missed the point I was making

I'm talking about Dean's leadership of the American people and his ability to motivate and mobilize them. Dean is clearly better than Clinton at that. He's also better at convincing people to donate to his cause.

[Darranar]

38. How has he mobilized and motivated the American people?

[KaraokeKarlton]

40. Simple

He has more people volunteering for him than has ever been seen in the past, and earlier than usual. He is the only presidential candidate to ever attract such massive crowds outside of his own state (he got to the point where he kept breaking his own record) and before most people were even paying attention. He has motivated more everday Americans to donate to his campaign than any presidential candidate has ever done. That's a few.

[Darranar]

41. Have a source for any of this?

[KaraokeKarlton]

46. Nope, and I'm not going to look for any either

Anyone who has been paying attention has read the same articles and seen the same reports I have. I do know he broke the crowd record in Texas, of all places, moths ago before the Sleepless Summer Tour. The record before that had been something like 1200 people. Since everyone knows that until the $2000 contribution limit that special interest and soft money funded campaigns, not the donations of the little guys.

[curse10]

49. Surprise! Surprise! n/t

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. I don't need to because people know it's true

Besides that, you're the one objecting to what I've said, so the responsibility to prove me wrong is on your shoulders. Go find proof that some other presidential candidate raised as much as Dean has from average americans with the average donation of $77. Go find proof that another presidential candidate had over half a million volunteers working hard to get him elected in a primary race.

[curse10]

54. LMAO!

Classic!

[KaraokeKarlton]

56. Do you like that tactic?

I borrowed it from a Kerry supporter. :shrug:

[curse10]

57. LoL

Karaoke! You are so funny!

[Darranar]

58. You made the claim, you find the proof.

[KaraokeKarlton]

64. I don't need to because even you know it's true

that is all.

[jumptheshadow]

63. His campaign manager made brilliant use of the Internet

But a lot of Americans were left out of that "democratic" process.

[jumptheshadow]

62. Clinton, the Rhodes scholar

Clinton may have been governor of a small state, but his impeccable European education helped to shape him as a statesman.

[cally]

28. What?

You may have hopes that Dean will create jobs, leave Iraq, etc but I don't understand how you can compare the record at this point in time. You may love Dean more than other Dems, but I just don't see his record as justifying your post. Maybe one day he will be there. :shrug:

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. I'm not talking about his record, which is damn great too

I'm talking about his ability to mobilize and motivate the people. And anyone who denies that Dean is the best at this isn't being honest with themself.

[Darranar]

48. There are lots of people who are able to inspire and motivate...

he doesn't inspire me or motivate me, but that's just my personal opinion. Other people have, Dennis Kucinich among them.

I'd still like a source for your claims above, btw.

[KaraokeKarlton]

55. I'm not saying that others don't motivate or inspire too

Only that Dean has proven to be the most effective at it that we've ever seen in a presidential candidate and probably any politician in this country. This isn't even the general election, it's a primary electionn. For anyone to do as Dean has done during a primary election is unheard of.

[Darranar]

59. Dean was in the right place at the right time...

it is not necessarily a sign of his charisma that he was able to gain such support.

And why is money the only thing that matters?

[Zomby Woof]

26. another rebuttal

Your group is focused way too much on DEAN, to whom you all seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.

And you all are preoccupied with making money.

[KaraokeKarlton]

50. My "group"? And what "group" would that be?

Dean has the most active and powerful grassroots campaign ever, and he is leading that campaign. This is the context I was talking about. The only part the money plays into this is WHERE it came from, which NO ONE has pulled off before Dean.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

12. Brrszzzt

No, NewYorkerFromMA. Very close, tho, very. ;-)

The wedding was beautiful, just beautiful.

[wyldwolf]

4. THAT is so funny it hurts...

After all your "Clinton can't pick our candidate" and other anti-Clinton type dems trash you've batted around, now you want to compare Dean to him?

6. the article, not Eloriel

I'm not sure if Eloriel is equating Clinton and Dean (Equating seems to be more the word you're looking for, in my opinion) but what the article is doing is contrasting them and in some ways criticizing Clinton for not bringing the "base" into the party.
Isn't there some truth to that critique of Clinton?

[DinkyDem]

7. Dean picks up by selling out

our Democratic principles for Republican's votes.

Welfare reform = pro-gun legislation?

[Schmendrick54]

14. OK, I can't help it. I gotta ask.

Hello DinkyDem,

I was just wondering if there is any Democrat who gets the DinkyDem Seal of Approval? I am just curious.

Thanks.
Schmendrick

[DinkyDem]

16. Yes

The REAL Democrats do.

Sharpton, Mosley-Braun, Kucinich, and Gephardt.

I'm leaning towards Sharpton. I think It's About Time.

Also, the Reverend has the charisma and the platform that will inspire the People.

[Eloriel]

9. Reading comprehension, folks, it actually helps one in life

not to mention DU.

No, as someone kindly -- and accurately -- pointed out, *I* absolutely do NOT compare Clinton and Dean. The first phrase in the post shoulda been your first clue.

FURTHER, neither does the article, which you might have tumbled onto from a reading of the excerpt -- but the full article would've convinced all except those who were just itching for something to diss and take issue with.

[mzmolly]

13. I totally agree. Great article!

:)

[mzmolly]

15. My two favorite quotes...

"Unless, that is, he benefited from an insider-driven process designed to block Dean at all costs. At this point, after he has amassed the armies of small donors and bloggers and volunteers, blocking Dean is not blocking one man. It's blocking the hopes of millions of Democrats who—understand the importance of this—would walk through fire for a candidate for the first time in their lives. That isn't something that should be done cavalierly; in the long term, blocking the active participation of these millions may do more damage to the Democratic Party than four more years of George W. Bush."

...

"Insiders need to start thinking about making their peace with Deanism. The party—the (still) post-1988 party—needs a rebuilt base, and Dean is doing that in a way that has no precedent. And instead of fretting about all the ways Dean could lose, the insiders might do better to spend some time thinking about how he might win."

[opihimoimoi]

29. MzMOlly, you come to my luau anytime. You have a standing invatation

Come, I prepare the rooms for you and husband/partner.

[mzmolly]

32. he he, sounds good...it's mighty cold where I am

[littlejoe]

18. Good article and good point, Eloriel

At this particular point in time, I have nothing profound to say.

[directinfection]

21. right...but

I think what you are saying is right, but i don't think dean is the man to do it. you say "He is not "of" them in any way, shape or form."

your right. he is more of a republican.

why can't we have a real demcrat rebuild the base?

[drfemoe]

44. Which of the nine

candidates do you consider to be a "real democrat"?

It seems you don't like Dean, so I would very much like to hear who you are supporting to move the party to the left?

[AP]

23. Clinton says democrats believe in deficit spending during recession

Dean thinks budgets should be balanced no matter what (which is what the Republicans in CA are trying to put on the March referendum).

[mzmolly]

25. Ah no, Dean says jobs come before a balanced budget...

:)

[bread_and_roses]

53. What's to explain?

"It's also what I and so many others have been trying to explain to DUers about one of the things that makes Dean really and truly different"

I don't see people knocking the campaign; he is running a great campaign. After the campaign, though, comes the Presidency, should the candidate win. Some of us think other candidates would make better occupants of that position than Dean, however good his campaign.

I question whether the article doesn't both overstate the numbers "willing to walk through the fire" for Dean (millions? millions that committed? I rather doubt it) and also ignores an awful lot of the "base."

Neither the internet nor DU occupies much space in most people's universe.

[angee_is_mad]

60. what is the democratic base?

Who are these people? Does his campaign supporters reflect this so-called base?

[arewethereyet]

61. well thought out but I cannot agree

Edwards far moreso than the rest.