Democratic group to broadcast new ad criticizing Dean – using pic of Osama

[pruner]

A new ad questioning Howard Dean's national security credentials is backed by a group that includes former supporters of rivals Dick Gephardt and John Kerry.

The ad shows a picture of Osama bin Laden and says that Dean, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, doesn't have the military or foreign policy experience needed to take on "those who wake up every morning determined to destroy Western civilization."

The Gephardt and Kerry campaigns say they had nothing to do with Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values or its ads.

The group, which says it is not affiliated with any candidate, includes treasurer David Jones, who has been a fund-raiser for Gephardt, and spokesman Robert Gibbs, who last month resigned as chief spokesman for Kerry's campaign.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/12/politics2015EST0748.DTL

[arcos]

1. learning quickly from Saxby Chambliss and Ralph Reed, huh? n/t

[oasis]

156. It was quite shameful how they trashed veteran Max Cleland. (n/t)

[IndianaGreen]

193. This also tells me how corrupt they have become

that we can't tell the Democratic Establishment apart from the GOP.

Thank you boys for resurrecting Ralph Nader's campaign for Prez!

:grr:

BTW, how many Iraqis were among the 9/11 hijackers?

One last point, if the Democrats nominate a candidate that voted for the IWR, the Democrats will lose the election to Bush because millions of Americans that oppose the war will never vote for such a candidate--no matter what we say in DU.

[killbotfactory]

2. Wow!

The sleaze is just oozing off that piece of crap ad.

[Julien Sorel]

3. He's a uniter, not a divider!

[arcane1]

4. we absolutely do NOT need this kind of misleading, PR-driven, Rovian..

BULLSHIT!!!!


:grr::mad::grr:

[slinkerwink]

55. I agree!!!!

:nuke:

[mzmolly]

5. Hmmmm Right out of the Bush playbook...

[funkyflathead]

Sadly.....yes

I bet Rove is smiling and laughing!

[onebigbadwulf]

6. Is it really a good idea for them

to flaunt a picture of the man we stil haven't caught?

"Look at our failure! Look at our failure!"

[asjr]

7. Sigh,

The Repubs won't have to do anything. We'll do it for them. I know how these people feel, but I really think this is ill-advised.

[jpgpenn]

8. It's about time...

someone is getting the facts out. can't wait to see it!

[arcane1]

13. thanks for your input

what are these facts of which you speak?

you are a Dem and can't wait to see this ad... hmm....

[jpgpenn]

109. the fact

Dean has zero military and world experience, like it or not these are the time we live in. granted the ad is alil over the top but it sounds like its putting things in perspective.

[frustrated_lefty]

144. zero world experience?

Umm....he's travelled to over 50 nations which would suggest he has at least a clue regarding international opinion. Soooo....he hasn't been in the military. And you think this is bad, by definition?

[caledesi]

196. Yeah FL, he worked in Africa. * didn't even know Africa was a continent.

[Andromeda]

201. Dean didn't say that...

Dim Son did.

[Andromeda]

203. Sorry - read your post wrong...

.

[caledesi]

212. That's okay, I do it all the time (especially after a few beers).

[jpgpenn]

227. traveled?

ummm skiing and laying in the sun doesn't count.:dunce:

[yankeedem]

145. How much military and world experience did

Reagan have? How about Clinton? or Shrub?

[caledesi]

195. You don't want to go there. Re: Military

If the repugs think they have a "draft-dodger" case, they are totally mistaken. If they keep pushing this non-issue, Dean is the type of person who will say something to the effect of "Gee, was Cheney asked about this? And what did he say...oh yes, I remember, he said he was not in military because 'he had other priorities.' And *, puhleeze, eventually Dean will bring up the fact that * was AWOL during 1971-1972.

Nothing here....move along. Next.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpgpenn]

142. see here

This is what you Dean followers are going to have to understand. The American people deserve to get all the info they can on this guy. Not the filtered garbage the major media working in tandem with the GOP has been putting out.

Many of the other candidates have been beat over the head with made up allegations, Clark, Kerry, Gephardt all of them have public records. Dean refuses to open files. During this nomination process we deserve everything we can get to make a choice.

If you think this is bad , wait till Rove has his way with him. Don't you think your man can stand up to it?

[Scott Lee]

149. Circumstances are quickly proving Dean right on keeping the seal

If the Scumpeddlers are willing to make shit up for ads like this, imagine what they would twist from zillions of innocuous little bits from Dean's record.

And no, he shouldn't be up to this. No one with a teaspoonfull of brains should expose themselves to more flying doo doo than they care to handle.

I cannot wait to see when they unveil the faces behind this one.

[jpgpenn]

228. all hot air!

The people have the "RIGHT" to know everything about a candidate "DURING" the nomination process. What part of that is so hard to understand?

[IndianaGreen]

197. If the Democrats nominate any of the four that voted for IWR

the Democrats will lose the 2004 Election! It doesn't matter what we say in DU about, or how many people get "banned" from DU, the irrefutable fact is that there are millions of Americans that will never vote for a candidate that supported the war in Iraq.

Nominating a prowar Democrat will boost the candidacy of a third party peace candidate, whatever his or her name turned out to be.

In 1917 the Russians faced a similar choice about their participation in World War I, support the prowar Czarists and Mensheviks, or go with the "Peace Now" Bolsheviks. They went with the Bolsheviks, as I would have.

[caledesi]

198. There is no "there" there.

Most governors seal their records. * TRIED to and the only reason they are available is bec it's a law in TX (public record). What the hell are you people getting at...looking for "dirt" on Dean. I think Dean is so damn smart that he is playing w/ these thugs. He saw what they did to McCain and he's not going to let Rove and the cabal do it to him. Eventually the records will be open and there won't be anything there and as usual the repugs will have egg on their face.

[Scott Lee]

9. Lowest of the slime - show scary pictures of Ossama

for maximum fear manipulation.

Cheap, low-bar, doomed to failure.

I guess some of the democratic (?) political ad architects learned nothing from the last few elections.

[librechik]

10. one more reason to reject Gep and Kerry

Dean hasn't made any Osama ads criticizing them!

Why can't democrats stick together once in a while?

Though it's heinous, you gotta admire the lockstep of the Bushbots.

[JI7]

12. this isn't made by gep and kerry

.

[Monte Carlo]

14. Gep and Kerry aren't making these...

... as it says in the article. They were once tied to the campaign, but that is not good reason to connect them like that.

[killbotfactory]

20. Yep. It's just a coincidence that Kerry is using the same attack line.

[Monte Carlo]

40. The offense is the tie-in with Osama a la GOP, not the line.

That Howard Dean doesn't have enough foreign-policy experience to do the job as well is a valid criticism. Foreign policy issues are going to be enormous in this election, and I just don't see where the injustice to Dean comes in.

[drfemoe]

133. I just hope Dean takes off the gloves

I don't like to see dems fighting dems .. but he has to defend himself. Since Kerry and Gep voted for the war action, they are all for it. No need to try to convince me now that they had better intentions.

[caledesi]

200. Foreign policy? Well, he had enough judgment to know that the

attack on Iraq was not a good thing. That alone makes him okay in my book.

Besides, Clinton and the current moran didn't have any "foreign policy" experience either.

[mitchum]

120. Proves my point (see posts 88, 100, 107)

[arcos]

29. Kerry and Gephardt should condemn and repudiate this...

otherwise, they should be rejected, I agree...

[papau]

33. Gep dropped group when trade ads dropped for gun, and now Osama

I don't believe Kerry was ever involved.

[JI7]

35. kerry wasn't involved

the guy who left kerry for dropping jordan as manager went to work there afterwards.

[drfemoe]

87. And

D*ck Cheney worked for the government then halliburton then the government ... in brief.

[caledesi]

202. This crap doesn't sound like Kerry at all. eom

[mitchum]

122. Proves my point (see posts 88, 100, 107)

[eileen_d]

11. OK, that's just crappy.

But sadly, that same theme will probably be used the Bush campaign in 2004. I hope Dean has a good response that goes beyond "I was against the war."

If Dean can respond convincingly to this attack *now*, he'll be prepared for 2004.

[Donna Zen]

16. Same?

Much...much...much worse.

[eileen_d]

21. Oh, I agree it will be worse in 2004

But it's the same message that will be used against Dean.

In an odd way, I think Dean has been given a good opportunity here -- to start responding to this kind of attack, which he *must* know is going to come from the Bush camp, early.

[Malva Zebrina]

15. This makes me feel giddy

I don't know whether it is because it is actually funny, or because the urge to laugh is a cover up for the sadness of it all. As if we, Democrats have not suffered enough--now we are put through this. I do not know what to think.

[LuminousX]

225. Wow, they reached the bottom of the barrel quickly

So the muck is being flung. Is this all the ammo they have left?

[Jerseycoa]

17. Nasty stuff

Didn't this group already do a negative ad a couple of weeks ago?



:dem:

[pruner]

19. yes

I think that one had to do with Dean's positions on guns.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

18. disgusting

Disgusting, and this is exactly the kind of attacks we'll get from Bush after the primary. We sure as hell shouldn't be doing it in the primary.

[eileen_d]

23. If Dean has a convincing answer to this ad

maybe he'll convince *me* to vote for him in the primary.

(Don't worry, kids... my primary vote won't matter at all, it's in June. No worries.)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

30. yeah, here's a good chance for Dean to prove he can fight on defense

If he can rebut the Democrats, he might have a chance of rebutting the Republicans. Seeing it in action would make me feel a lot better about his electability.

[eileen_d]

34. Me too!

I would type that "me too" in all caps with about 40 exclamation points, but that would just be annoying. ;)

[Eric J in MN]

124. I agreee. Responding to this is good practice for the general (nt)

nt

[Q]

22. Another 'anonymous' hit piece...

...where no scummy politician has to take the blame.

[drfemoe]

135. Funny how no one wants to use their name while attacking Dean

eh?? Balls? Remember Kerry and Bush have a 'history' ..

This will hurt Kerry (Gep) more than it will hurt dean ..

Spooks think they are always invisible ..

[madfloridian]

24. Gep and Kerry ....they should stop it.

If it is coming down to this, no one wins.

[JI7]

36. they aren't involved with this

these people USED to work for them.

[drfemoe]

90. AND

D*ck Cheney USED to work for Halli-fucking-burton ..
Beltway politicians think Americans are so stupid ..

[sandnsea]

25. Resigned when Jim Jordan was fired?

One of those people who Kerry said was more loyal to Jordan than him and was pissed all over because he said it???? Now it's Kerry's fault this guy is doing this?

[JI7]

39. kind of like

that republican who is raising money for dean just for the primary to be used against other democrats so it doesn't conflict with his support and work for republicans ? but will go back working for the gop after .

[sandnsea]

41. Something like that

Except there's no reason to think the people who quit Kerry & Gephardt's campaigns have any intentions of going back to work for them.

But there sure is alot of hypocrisy going around.

[JI7]

48. i'm used to it

by now, pretty used to it here.

[drfemoe]

60. No I'm sure

their intentions are completey pure. How many GOPs donated to this bunch?
Who ARE they 'working for'? Funny, they won't say ..

Tricia Enright, a Dean spokeswoman, said, "Governor Dean had the judgment to oppose this war and the guts to stand up to George Bush. The least this nameless, faceless group can do is have the courage to say who they are."

I Trust them Completely.

[sandnsea]

66. Nameless, faceless???

Lots of names flying around this thread. I don't see any nameless, faceless group.

[drfemoe]

84. nameless

The group has said it would comply with campaign finance laws that say the group doesn't have to disclose its donors until February.

[sandnsea]

104. Like Dean's Republican donors

The ones that new Republican fund raiser is going after???

[drfemoe]

129. no proof has ever been OFFERED

that there is a republican fund raiser .. we scraped our knees beggng for a source, some proof.. I posted on that thread .. nothing was ever produced.

Maybe since this walks like Kerry/Gep, quacks like Kerry/Gep and stinks like Kerry/Gep .. it might be KERRY / GEP ..

Ignore my earlier assertion that this is done all the time ..

work for the white house ..work for pharmcos .. work for white house
work for the white house ..work for defense .. work for white house
work for the white house ..work for $$$$$$ .. work for white house

It's not a new concept. Just one that Kerry and Gep think we are too STUPID to correctly identify by smell

[sandnsea]

137. Right, no PROOF

So why make shit up?

Except for the fact that that's all Dean's done all year.

[drfemoe]

194. I didn't make up anything

you're talking about some republican fund raiser .. where is it?

I made a list of links showing that this guy is not a "republican fund raiser". I looked at it. There is a thread on DU. NO ONE has offered any evidence this guy is a "republican fund raiser". That is not made up. So far the only thing made up is that there is a "republican fund raiser" . based on no EVIDENCE. THATS's what I call making stuff up.

[mikehiggins]

26. Kerry and Gephardt should denounce this right away.

This is disgusting and the people behind it should be outed.

[drfemoe]

61. amen bro

[Philostopher]

27. Here's a thought.

I ran a Google search on Edward Farrell Feighan, the guy whose name is on the front page of the site for this group:

http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=2

Here's a blurb on Yahoo about him and the company he's now heading up:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031119/clw040_1.html

An insurance company -- specifically, property and casualty insurance. He's also from Cleveland, Ohio, and served Ohio as a Democrat for many years.

What's the bug up his ass? Dunno, but I thought I'd throw out his name and the company's name that hired him as a chairman and CEO, just to see if it rang any bells with anybody.

Does it? Doesn't with me, but if we're going to fight them, research is the single most important thing we can do.

[cosmicdot]

53. wish more people would dig beyond the headline

so far, my analysis is: what's odd is that there isn't very much information on any of the organizations he's affiliated with ... the Amer. for Jobs, etc., isn't even an ".org" site

who else is involved under "About us"?

opensecrets.org has some info about what campaigns he has contributed to over the years: Gep, Lieberman, DNC Services Corp, Robert Mrazek, Levin, Green


http://38.113.97.196/websites/Health/default.asp?ID=2

who knows anything about this Feighan person? former Congressman from Ohio

FEIGHAN, EDWARD
LAKEWOOD,OH 44107


he's in the insurance business and big on privatizing Russia

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031119/clw040_1.html

Former Congressman Edward Feighan is the President of Americans for Jobs, Health Care & Progressive Values. He is also currently the Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer of ProCentury Corporation, the parent of the Century Insurance Group based in Columbus, Ohio. http://www.procentury.com/ The Century Insurance Group is a specialty-lines insurer, writing commercial property/casualty insurance for niche markets nationwide, operating in 49 States and has annual gross premiums of approximately $175 million. Mr. Feighan has served as member of the board of directors of ProCentury since October, 2000.

Mr. Feighan served 20 consecutive years in elected office beginning in 1972. He served as a State Representative for six years, a Cuyahoga County Commissioner for four years, and as member of the United States House of Representatives for ten years. Congressman Feighan has been recognized as a leading authority on foreign policy and international trade and finance.

Since departing Congress in 1993, Congressman Feighan has served as a member of the Commission on Privatization in Russia; the U.S. Commission for Improving the United Nations; the Board of Trustees of the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs; the National Council of International Programs; and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.

From 1996 to 1998, Mr. Feighan served as the Senior Vice President, founding President, CEO and director of Century Business Services, Inc. (NASDAQ: CBIZ). Century Business Services was recognized as the Best Growth Company in Ohio in 1999 by the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Mr. Feighan is also a founding partner of American Foreign Capital Partners (AFCAP). Maintaining offices in Cleveland, Ohio and St. Petersburg, Russia, AFCAP represents several multi-national businesses in the former Soviet Union. From 1998 until Mr. Feighan joined the senior management of Century Insurance Group, he served as the Managing Partner of Alliance Financial, Limited, a Cleveland, Ohio-based firm specializing in mergers, acquisitions and merchant banking services.

Congressman Feighan earned a law degree from Cleveland State University in 1978 after completing his undergraduate studies at Borromeo Catholic Seminary, Cleveland, Ohio and Loyola University, New Orleans, Louisiana. Mr. Feighan is the father of four children.
http://38.113.97.196/websites/Health/default.asp?ID=3

odd website address

ProCentury Corporation Names Former Congressman and Business Innovatoras New Chairman and CEO
Wednesday November 19, 3:51 pm ET


COLUMBUS, Ohio, Nov. 19 /PRNewswire/ -- ProCentury Corporation, the parent company of Century Insurance Group, has announced that Edward F. Feighan has been named the company's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. Feighan is an investor, entrepreneur and former Cuyahoga County Commissioner, Ohio House Representative, and United States Congressman. Feighan replaces long-time Chairman and CEO Roswell P. (Roz) Ellis. Mr. Ellis will continue to serve as Chairman and CEO of two subsidiaries of ProCentury, Evergreen National Indemnity Company and Continental Heritage Insurance Company.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031119/clw040_1.html

[OKNancy]

71. Dennis the K beat him in his race for Mayor of

Cleveland

[slinkerwink]

28. now, that's just low!

[xray s]

31. Disgusting

I hope Dean's response kicks back hard, and hopefully adresses this issue in a way that takes it off the table for good.

I notice that Gibbs resigned from the Kerry campaign last month (part of Kerry's house cleaning?). I would hope Kerry got rid of the guy because he advocated tactics like this.

All the other candidates should condemn this ad. :mad:

[drfemoe]

32. former supporters?

who the hell do they support now if not Gephardt and Kerry?

[mitchum]

119. Proves my point ( see posts 88, 100, 107)

[drfemoe]

205. read my 90 and 129 . tyvm

[LoZoccolo]

37. If Dean can survive this, he can be elected.

However, if he can't, and one of the other candidates wins the nomination by virtue of this, I think Bush* will win. Here's my forecast: the turnout from Democrats I don't think will be that good, if they are cynical about the Democratic party really changing themselves and representing the people voting for them. People will lose faith in the Democrats and the Green party will grow and we'll lose again possibly in 2008 and 2012. They'll have one more reason to convince younger voters that there's no difference between the Republicans and Democrats.

It would be one thing to sit down with Dean in private and discuss these things with him, and get him to start emphasizing national security, it's completely another to do this Osama thing.

[WhosNext]

42. LOL

Democratic primary voters could care less about Osama. Just because Dean survives this doesn't mean he will be elected. The general election is a whole other ballgame.

[LoZoccolo]

46. I beg to differ.

He'll still have to respond to it, and we'll get to see how he deals with it.

[LoZoccolo]

47. I beg to differ.

He'll still have to respond to it, and we'll get to see how he deals with it. He'll start talking about national security a lot.

[eileen_d]

50. Well, I look forward to it!

I would really like to hear more details of his plans in that area.

[Skwmom]

52. This is nothing compared to what he will face in the general

election.

[drfemoe]

57. If we lose in 2004 . we LOSE

[neuvocat]

72. This might go in his favor.

You never know.

[mot78]

38. WTF?

yeah, this is exactly what we need, *-style attack ads. Hey Americans for Jobs, when * exports more jobs overseas, don't expect us to forgive you for eating are own.

[SahaleArm]

43. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

This hurts Dean, Kerry, and Gephardt - And smells of GOP involvement.

[xray s]

44. delete/apology

I apologize for being taken in by a right wing lie. I thought Gore was the first to bring up Willie Horton in the primaries. I am wrong.

In the primaries Gore did bring up weekend furloughs for convicts, but never mentioned Horton by name.

Bush took the issue and ran with it in the general election. Bush was the one who added the Horton angle.

[SahaleArm]

51. Willie Horton was an inside job? *nm*

[caledesi]

45. Why don't these people join Rove and his thugs? We don't need 'em.

Comeon Dems....Don't do Rove's job for him. Join him. Bye bye.

[pruner]

54. link to ad:

http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=2

[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. Holy Shit

Talk about scare tactics!

DTH

[SahaleArm]

63. Deleted

[killbotfactory]

64. What a bunch of horse crap

Do these idiots realize that Bush HAS NOT MADE US ANY SAFER FROM TERRORISM?

@!)(#&$~!)($%&!($&)(!#&@!(#!@*#!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KaraokeKarlton]

58. Here's what a WhoIs pulled up from the orgs domain registration

The data contained in this Registrar's Whois database,
while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is"
with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This information
is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you in obtaining
information about domain name registration records. Any use of
this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden without
the prior written permission of the Registrar. By submitting an
inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and limitations of warranty.
In particular, you agree not to use this data to allow, enable, or
otherwise make possible, dissemination or collection of this data, in
part or in its entirety, for any purpose, such as the transmission of
unsolicited advertising and solicitations of any kind, including spam.
You further agree not to use this data to enable high volume, automated
or robotic electronic processes designed to collect or compile this data
for any purpose, including mining this data for your own personal or
commercial purposes.

Please note: the owner of the domain name is specified in the "registrant" field.
In most cases, the Registrar is not the owner of domain names listed in this database.


Registrant:
Windermere Communications

Registered through: Yellow Dog Interactive Corp
Domain Name: PROGRESSIVEVALUES.COM

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.ONYXLIGHT.NET
NS2.ONYXLIGHT.NET
NS3.ONYXLIGHT.NET
NS4.ONYXLIGHT.NET

[eileen_d]

62. Here's detailed info on the registrant

my guess is that it's a tech company

Registrant:

Windermere Communications

6355 MetroWest Blvd

Suite 260

ORLANDO, Florida 32835

United States

Edit: yep, http://www.iprocentral.com/Designers117/wind.htm

[Fleshdancer]

59. well I just saw the !$#@% ad!

What the hell???? No seriously, what the hell? This is EXACTLY what I expected from the slime in the GOP....only this time Rove didn't have to spend ONE SINGLE DIME ON THIS CRAP!

And people wonder why Deanies are angry? Can you look at this and wonder why I'm %$!#*@ pissed???

You know what really gets me? I don't know what angers me more...the fact that this was created by a so called "progressive" group (I'll bet money Kucinich would take offense to this group using the term progressive by the way), or the fact that this same damn ad could have easily been written here on DU. Because this is exactly what we have been reduced to...calling ourselves EXACTLY what the GOP and neocons have been calling us for years.

[Cha]

67. It's Ghoulish and it will

come back to bite them in their collective Ghoulish asses.

Why don't they use ads against bush with osama? bush is the one that hasn't caught him.

[Zynx]

65. If that's not a Kerry/Gephardt consortium, I don't know what is.

I have often refuted this "experience" argument and I challenge anybody to a debate on it.

[slinkerwink]

69. yep, it might be them

[mitchum]

117. Proves my point (see posts 88, 100, 107)

[Bucky]

189. Mitch, I suspect that this proves your point from posts 88, 100, & 107

know it all

[mitchum]

115. Proves my point (see posts 88, 100, 107)

[veracity]

68. Bob Herbert's column today....

...addressed the 'circular firing squad' formed by the democratic candidates that we're seeing right now. At this moment... watching them all disintegrate into selfish, power hungry demagogues, -- I can fully understand the Nader people for the first time. Each dem candidate is giving the GOP ammunition to destroy the opposition. Bush won't need to attack Dean or anyone else. He'll just sit back and use the words of the Dem candidates against each other. It's so sad...and so frustrating to watch. They don't seem to care about the country at all... which will totally fall apart if Bush gets another term. They just don't want the other guy to get in. And what's worse....after the changeover in Canada...that's not an option either. Where to run????

[Melinda]

70. Same group did this a few days ago - And Trippi said:

"We're not going to let any attack go unchallenged," Mr. Trippi said, though he would not specify how much his campaign's new advertising would cost or what they would say.

"We are under pretty sustained attack," he said. "Let's see where they want to follow us now, see who has the resources to follow us."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/06/politics/06CAMP.html

Oh and about this group?

Mr. Raftis said of the advertisements, "It absolutely is all about informing voters about issues that I and other progressives care about."

He declined to identify his group's contributors and said he would do so when federal law requires that, next month.

:eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

77. Raftis is in charge of Windermere Communications

So my guess would be that whoever he has ties to is funding the ad and behind it.

[ariesgem]

73. This is why we lose...

This editorial hits the nail right on the head:

OP-ED COLUMNIST
No Will to Win?
By BOB HERBERT

Ready, aim. . . .

The Democratic Party's circular firing squad has assembled. Everybody's angry with everybody else. Joe Lieberman is trying to extricate the knife that, in his view, Al Gore deposited in his back. Al Sharpton is accusing Mr. Gore of engaging in the kind of "bossism" that belongs "in the other party."

The Gore and Clinton families are morphing into the Hatfields and the McCoys. And the runaway Dean machine, which has shown an impressive ability to amass campaign cash and early primary support, is now generating prodigious amounts of fear and loathing as well.

Those cackles of glee you hear in the background are coming from the White House.

One very prominent Southern Democrat, who asked not to be identified, said of Howard Dean, "This guy will take us down like the Titanic. "

Representative Charles Rangel, who endorsed Gen. Wesley Clark at a press conference in Harlem yesterday (just 24 hours after Mr. Gore endorsed Dr. Dean in Harlem), said he didn't think Dr. Dean was a sure loser. But he was openly contemptuous of the Gore-Dean alliance.

"I'm here for General Clark, and people are asking me questions about Gore and Dean," he said. "The best I can figure out, they got in the cab and told the cabbie, `Take us to Harvard' — and the cabbie screwed up and took them to Harlem."

<<<<snip>>>>

The Dems may indeed sink like the Titanic next year. But I don't think Dr. Dean is the problem — at least, not yet. The problem is the party itself. God and the Republicans have blessed the Democrats with the high ground on one important issue after another, from the war in Iraq to national economic policy to health care to education to the environment.

<<<<snip>>>>

But like the Union general George McClellan, the Democrats have been too timid to take full advantage. It's a party for the faint of heart. The Republicans are hijacking elections and redistricting the country and looting the Treasury and ignoring the Constitution and embittering our allies, while the Democrats are — let's see, fumbling their way through an incoherent primary season and freaking out over Al Gore's endorsement of Howard Dean.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/12/opinion/12HERB.html?ei=5062&en=4f07344ffb08aada&ex=1071810000&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position

[mmonk]

74. cheap shot

[ajacobson]

75. Repulsive

I am just disgusted that some Democratic Party operatives would set up a 527 for the sole purpose of denouncing Dean. This is fucking bullshit. What a waste of money that could be used constructively.

All the other campaigns should condemn this in no uncertain terms. Especially the Gep and Kerry campaigns, as people with very recent ties to their campaigns are implicated in this mess.

[Walt Starr]

76. This tells me the other eight campaigns are desperate

and it only serves to shore up my resolve to vote for Dean.

[mmonk]

78. accusations are easy

but really finding out who is responsible takes effort and time.

[Walt Starr]

79. One person used to work for Gephardt

another for Kerry.

I want to hear what those two candidates have to say. If they do not resoundingly denounce the ad, I will refuse to vote for either should they win the nomination.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/12/politics2015EST0748.DTL

[mmonk]

80. doesn't look good IMO

I guess we'll see how they handle denials.

[eileen_d]

82. If everyone refused to vote for candidates who attack other candidates

There would be no ABB, I guess.

[Walt Starr]

Fuck that

These assholes are using the technique that was used on Max Cleland.

I refuse to vote for any Democrat who will sink that low, I don't care who the fuck it is.

Kerry and Gephardt are now on my Do Not Vote list.

[robbedvoter]

215. Max Cleland? THE WAR HERO accused of treason? This is the same -how?

[Walt Starr]

85. Fuck that

These assholes are using the technique that was used on Max Cleland.

I refuse to vote for any Democrat who will sink that low, I don't care who the fuck it is.

Kerry and Gephardt are now on my Do Not Vote list.

[eileen_d]

89. Whatever... there is NO evidence that they funded this

If Dean can respond effectively to the attack, it won't be an issue anyway. I wish Dean supporters would focus their energy on that instead of saying "Fuck Kerry and Gephardt."

[Walt Starr]

92. Nope, not in this case

I refuse to even consider any of the other eight candidates for my vote in the general election until they each openly and publically denounce this ad.

Every last one of them. Right now, as far as I'm concerned, it's Dean or nobody. I will only reconsider when a candidate denounces this ad.

[eileen_d]

101. I wish all the candidates would do exactly what I wanted to do too

But I can accept it if they won't. Good luck.

[Walt Starr]

111. In this case, nothing less than a denouncement is acceptable

nothing.

[LizW]

130. THAT'S why it looks bad for Kerry and Gephart

This is a scurrilous, slimeball, cowardly, cheap-shot ad, and the only thing you can say is Dean should respond?

I'd like to think that Democrats didn't do this, too, but the evidence is they did. To believe Republicans did it, you'd have to believe that the guys who recently worked for Gephart and Kerry suddenly decided to go to work for Republicans masquerading as Democrats to take down other Democrats. And you'd have to believe that the Republicans have decided it would be to their benefit to take down the front running Dem during the primary season, rather than wait until the general election to spend their cash (when it would directly benefit Bush*).

Occam's Razor says that the campaign or campaigns with the most to gain right now did this, and that points to other Dems. It makes me sick, but there it is.

[eileen_d]

138. I do believe Democrats did this

I also think people are quick to judge that Gephardt and Kerry are pulling the strings behind it. I never said I thought Republicans did this.

Dean could use this slimeball, cowardly, cheap-shot ad to his advantage. He could use it to show the American people exactly why he's a fantastic candidate, why the portrayal in the ad is false, and why the people who are behind this ad are idiots.

Or he could use it to attack Kerry and Gephardt. He could start calling for their heads on a plate. He could alienate Democrats who are already leery of him. Talk about not seeing the big picture...

All I can say is - I'm glad I chose to support Clark. Made the decision today & I think I'll be spending more time on their blog.

[Walt Starr]

148. I don't even believe Clark's hands are clean in this

I haven't heard him denounce it yet.

Right now, I'm a Deanocrat and NBD. Nobody But Dean.

[retyred]

81. That is really tacky!

I don't like dean, but this is really in bad taste.


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[SahaleArm]

83. Can someone post a direct link to the video file not the web page?

Thanks.

[killbotfactory]

86. My response to the ad...

For what it's worth...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=100564

[unfrigginreal]

94. Great response KBF

I hope you send them to the campaign when they're produced.

Here's my recommendation to the campaign for a response fwiw...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=100544

[mitchum]

88. Since the group includes FORMER Gep and Kerry associates...

what is the possibility that this is actually coordinated by Dean supporters? It would have the effect of making the two look underhanded, blah, blah, blah...and would also bolster the resolve of current Dean supporters.

[mmonk]

91. too twisted

[mitchum]

96. too innocent

[mmonk]

99. now how would they connect it to them?

[mitchum]

107. Uh, pruner stated in the original post that about the former status...

of the two gentlemen. The mind is supposed to gloss over the "former" part. And it works (look at all of the grumblings of "Goddamn Kerry and Gep...blah...blah...blah" already in this thread)

[salin]

143. or an argument sounding a bit contorted in logic

along the lines of those who dislike Clinton so much that they are willing to try to twist logic so hard to try to lay the fault of blame of everything upon him.

In the calculus here - there is bigger damage to Dean (as the GOP will pick it up and run with it were he to ever win the nomination) than there is to other candidates - even if tied to it. The effect of "negative campaigning" has a moderate negative impact on those accused of carrying out - less than those targeted by an effective attack - otherwise the tactic would not still be "risked" to be used. For the most classic examples of primary attacks that harmed the center of the attack more than the attacker, even after the attacker was known... see South Carolina, GOP primary, 2000.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

100. Not really. I used to be involved in some heavy-duty campaign dirty...

tricks in my former life. This is exactly the type of operation I would have encouraged. It is very effective if it is used judiciously (just look out all of the outrage in this thread) This will not hurt Dean.

[salin]

168. ah... so you are familiar

with segrettian tactics. Interesting because my first thought was I wondered if it was GOP - in the true Segretti style. Don't want to think that - since those associated with this were previously associated (high up) with two dem. candidates - to believe it was GOP would be to think that Rove et al infiltrated to the top of multiple campaigns.

I don't buy your theory. I don't know who is behind it and chose not to speculate. But it does more future (ge) harm to dean than short term gain, than it does potential harm to current candidates were they associated with this effort. The "dean did it!" still rings absurdly hollow.

[mitchum]

185. very familiar

[salin]

187. so noted.

guess that is why I went to into policy. While complicated - and never giving the "clean" answers that folks more ideologically driven want... no stench.

[drfemoe]

199. It's not Dean

it's his incompetent desperate 'competition'.

They didn't get the campaigns going through the normal channels, so they've decided to go undercover.

You are also suggesting that Dean's campaign would be interested in heavy-duty campaign dirty tricks . and I don't think so.
This will work for Dean because everything the candidates have thrown at him so far have helped him. The harder they try, the faster they fail.

We will find out who these people are and who's interests they are really trying to advance. They won't be in Dean's camp.

[salin]

141. absurd.

classically so. To put up something that would be far more damaging to self... to MAYBE implicate rivals... right... that makes a great deal of sense. :eyes:

While I am not one to jump into the fray of who to blame, I do find the "its Dean himself" claim to be beyond silly. Almost along the lines of lets blame everything - regardless of how BIG of a stretch it is... on Clinton's Penis.

[mitchum]

150. With all due respect, the judicious use of this type of attack...

can be very effective. The electorate has a very short attention span and an ad like this in the primary season will not carry over to the general election (but can have a great impact in the primary) I had a great deal of experience with these types of dirty tricks in an area of the country you seem to be familiar with (however, I wasn't involved in the particular one you referenced above) I said that there was the possibility, not probability, that this was Dean support orchestrated. If I were truly paranoid, I would say that you were another op who had posted in an effort to soberly debunk my assertion. I know that's not true. Sincerely.

[salin]

171. very small possibility

as the calculus suggests more self inflicted damage were this the case.

No I haven't been involved in that regions campaigning though I was DC based and for a brief time in the "consultants" circle (I was just a staffer) among dems when we took back the senate in 1986. Since then have been midwestern and pacific coast (now returned to the midwest) - just a policy person who has enough experience to know what I am following (and I do follow it closely.)

Have never had any respect for Segretti (or the more ugly Atwater style) type primary tactics. Best I saw however was a standoff early in a general when the republicans were going very dirty (introducing heavy inneundo/dirt in the acceptance of the GOP nomination for senator...)... when the dems had equally damaging goods on said candidate (who still floats in and out on a national level - including being floated for a cabinet position in this adminiostration)... within 24 hours they conferred.. the dems said... continue down this road - and we will let loose with x. And a relatively clean campaign was run from there on out - on the issues - and the democrat (it was an open seat) won - and has won every election since.

[Hep]

182. Unlikely

It's an awful lot of money. And more people will see the ad than see the response. Plus, it WORKED against Cleland. Ruined him. Helluva risk.

Anyhow, it's not what the Dean campaign is about.

[1songbird]

95. This sort of thing is not constructive at all.

I'm no big fan of Dean but this is not right.

[Walt Starr]

98. It's made me Dean or nobody

Fuck any candidate who does not publically denounce this ad.

[mitchum]

114. Proves my point (see posts 88, 100, 107)

[Walt Starr]

136. Bullshit

Only one thing can prove it. The list of donors that gets released in February.

As far as I'm concerned, all eight candidates are guilty until proven innocent.

I'm now Dean or nobody. End of story.

[mitchum]

177. No, your reaction proves that this will only bolster the resolve of Dean..

supporters. Have you cooled off just enough to write out a check to the campaign?

[1songbird]

164. I hope that none of the candidates are involved

in this. This is a nasty situation brewing here but we must not let this divide us. Many of us have pledged ABB(Lieberman?) and we intend to stick to it.

[Alenne]

97. The ad is sick but

so is involving the Gephardt and Kerry campaigns without any proof.

[Walt Starr]

102. Until they denounce it, I'm done with them

Read it and weep:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/12/politics2015EST0748.DTL

[eileen_d]

103. Yes, we get it.

[Walt Starr]

106. Kerry wanted his Civil War

He's got one now, as far as I'm concerned.

[eileen_d]

108. Enjoy the drama.

:toast:

[KaraokeKarlton]

121. If they don't want to disclose funders until February

I'm betting that at least one candidate is chipping in. I'll be watching and whoever helped pay for this crap should be kicked out of the party.

[Walt Starr]

126. Right now, I am considering them all guilty

until they profess their inocence. All eight of 'em.

[SadEagle]

172. The key question:

WHEN in February. Before or after the big primary day?

[Eloriel]

186. And/or one candidate's wife n/t

[BootinUp]

105. I do not like the Osama bin 'laiden' add

But are we sure it is connected to the DNC?

I disagree with fear tactics like what the repugs use, we must win from the high ground!

[pruner]

116. I don't think anyone's suggesting the DNC is connected to the ad per se…

rather, people (myself included) are pissed that the DNC is sitting on the sidelines allowing Democratic special interest groups to use GOP-inspired attack ad instead of disavowing the ads and tactics.

[BootinUp]

125. This will backfire

So I support you pruner. I hope to see some statements condemning this ad.

[Jack Rabbit]

110. Who needs Bush to beat us?

We'll do it ourselves.

[Blade]

112. OH geez...

that's the worst thing anyone could do right now - come out with ads on tv to attack a frontrunner of the Democratic nomination, if you're not a republican.

Other American people would not find that appealing when Dems attack other dems on national tv.

This is getting WAY outta hand...

[KaraokeKarlton]

113. All I can say is this...

If other Democrats continue to try to bring Dean down and they succeed, they deserve the 4 more years of Bush that they will get as a result. What they fail to realize is that the general public sees Dean as the strongest Democrat because he's leading all over. The general consensus of the public will be that Dean is the best candidate the Democrats have to offer (I agree). If they see other Democrats telling them the best they have to offer is bad they are going to vote for Bush.

This is why attack ads destroy the Democratic Party. If those who do this can't figure that out by now they deserve King George.

[laruemtt]

118. why the f*ck didn't they use that

perfectly good money to run an ad against our common enemy? how stupid.

[LizW]

140. Good question

Answer: because right now, the enemy of the people who ran this ad is Howard Dean. They are desperate.

[eileen_d]

123. OK, Dean supporters....

I would like to start a whole new thread about this but don't want to watch it drop. Here is my question:

Are you going to respond to this ad by attacking the alleged Democrats who are behind it? thus furthering the division in the Democratic Party (and I'm not going to get into who started it, or whose fault it is)....

OR...

Are you going to get Dean's national security message out to the Democrats who desperately want to be reassured that Dean can beat Bush?

In other words... which is more important...kicking the opposition Democrats out of the party (as has been suggested on this thread) or showing the voters that Dean can beat Bush?

[unfrigginreal]

128. He really has no choice but to respond in kind

If there is one thing that I've learned in politics, nice guys ALWAYS finish last. You can't counter a punch to the face with a scolding.

[eileen_d]

132. eh, he could do both

I am just of the opinion that Dean should make his response more about his strengths and less about how the other candidates are jerks. But he could still include both elements. I've said the same thing over and over though, so I should probably just stop. ;)

[dansolo]

160. He could emphasize what he has been saying all along

He has been arguing that Iraq was not a threat, and that Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda is the real enemy, and that invading Iraq has only taken away the resources that we need to capture Osama bin Laden, and resulted in more recruitment for al Qaeda.

[eileen_d]

181. Yep, that would work for me! n/t

[pruner]

131. I think it's equally important to get rid of Bush and his enablers

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that the Progressive Values group is a Bush enabler since they're doing his work for him.

[eileen_d]

134. I do agree with that.

They're not the kind of Democrats I would want to associate with, that's for sure.

[Scott Lee]

146. By sending Bushhole and the DNC into an ice flow aboard the Titanic

Well I can dream, can't I?

[eileen_d]

155. Oh, I'd never deny your right to dream.

:hug:

[frustrated_lefty]

152. My response

was to send an email to the site which plans to run the ad and lambast them for using corrupt practices. I then went to the Dean website and made a donation. I hope that money gets spent on countering ads of this sort.

I don't blame Kerry or Gephardt, but I would respect them much more if they repudiated the ad.

[LizW]

170. For starters, read this speech

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_speech_foreign_cfr

(sorry for the long link)

It has been quite effectively proven in recent history that a President does not have to have served in the military to be an effective and competent Commander in Chief. Neither does he have to be a hawk, constantly seeking out the next enemy in order to practice perpetual war. I think most Americans would agree that a Commander in Chief should not send our soldiers into battle thoughtlessly, or without adequate supplies, preparation and training. Howard Dean's opposition to the invasion of Iraq shows that he also believes that. He has stated in the speech linked above that he will follow the example of Eisenhower, Truman and Kennedy in seeking the assistance of international institutions and of our allies around the world before placing our troops in harms way. While he will not hesitate to address imminent threats to our nation, he will not use our forces for purposes of imperialism or revenge.

For those who think that a candidate who opposed the invasion of Iraq cannot lead as President, Dean points out that President John F. Kennedy, during the Cuban missile crisis, faced Joint Chiefs and a Congress who advocated going to war. Kennedy prevailed with toughness and diplomacy, and war was averted.

Dean says that the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war, and our unilateral action has damaged America's stature in the world. He intends to repair our integrity with our allies.

Specifically, Dean would see that the questions about the WMD's, Bush's reason for taking us to war in Iraq, are answered fully. If there are WMD's, where are they? If there are none, the Dean will see to it that a full investigation is conducted into why our intelligence was so wrong, or so misleading. An honest assessment of this basic rationale for war, open for the world to see, will help to repair America's reputation with the world.

Further, Dean says that he will see that a full investigation is conducted into the reasons why we went to war without a coherent plan for the peace after the war. This includes an evaluation of the effects of using Reservists and National Guard Units in active and hostile military operations.

There is much, much more, but you should really read for yourself. The bottom line is, Dean will pay attention to the threat of terrorism, and not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but elsewhere in the world. He pledges to keep our military strong, but to use force only when the evidence requires it, not when idealogy does. He promises to address the threats posed by nations with nuclear capability, something Bush* has ignored. Dean will build back the alliances Bush* has pissed on.

Now, You can't say no one pointed you in the direction of the "response" you seek from Dean supporters. There's lots more out there if you choose to look.

I understand that there are some voters who will only feel comfortable with a military guy. That can't be changed, and those people have Clark or Kerry to choose from, and more power to them. But for me, even with the God-awful mess left by Bush*, I am very, very comfortable with the prospect of Howard Dean as Commander in Chief.

Now that my response is out of the way, let me say that this ad is sleazy, slimeball, crap, and whoever is behind it are a bunch of cowardly scoundrels. If it turns out that one or more of the other Democrats' campaigns are involved in this, I will be sickened, as I await the karma that puts Bush* in office for another four years.

[eileen_d]

179. I appreciate the information

although not the implication that my question was not sincere (if I am interpreting your response correctly, which I may not be)

I just want to see Dean do something other than attack the other Democrats... distasteful as the other Democrats' tactics may be. That's all it would take for me to be comfortable with him.

[LizW]

183. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your question

was not sincere.

YOUR question definitely deserved a response (and my answer doesn't really do enough justice, but there's so much information out there, I had to give bare bones).

Obviously, I'm frustrated by this anonymous sleaze ad. I wish it could be answered with a hearty "FO" to the group behind it. That would be very satisfying, but hardly productive.

Since I read the initial response of the Dean campaign to the ad, I feel better. There's a reason why they run presidential campaigns and I don't. ;) I expect they will come out with an excellent substantive response to the attack ad very soon.

[eileen_d]

184. I admit I'm a little touchy

because I got attacked in another thread, where I admittedly was not as tactful (and got my message deleted from it)

I have been leaning towards Clark (I just donated today actually) and must admit to myself that I would be furious if I saw this kind of ad, especially if it was done by other Democrats. It is easier to play devil's advocate when the devil isn't targeting my candidate, I guess. Oh well... I really think Dean and his campaign will get past this shameful ad, and I will be glad when they do.

[frustrated_lefty]

127. First donation to Dean because of this

I have a wife, 3 kids, and support them on my single income which isn't that great. We stretch from month to month, and we've been saving for months to make sure the kids have a Christmas. But this is offensive and MUST be answered. I was planning to make my first donation in January with my next paycheck, but screw it, I'll eat Ramen for the rest of the month.

Dean will answer this ad, and I very much think other candidates should repudiate it. This ad is akin to chimpie in a flight suit.

There was an episode of the West Wing that immediately came to mind. One of Bartlet's advisors recommended doing something like this, and Sheen's character said: "WE don't do that." That's their gig, this is supposed to be the party of values.

[slinkerwink]

151. thanks for your donation!

:hi:

[quaker bill]

139. These guys need to hang it up.

They are done.

Perhaps it is a conspiracy to get Dean more supporters and money. I suspect it will work that way.

[Bill of Rights]

147. It wasn't Braun, Sharpton or Kucinich

I doubt it was Edwards or Clark. Both are running a positive campaign. That leaves Gep or Kerry or some group that wants Dean to lose the nomination.

Possible groups:
Democrat - a group that thinks Dean is unelectable in the General Election, a group that supports another candidate's positions and policies.

Republican - a group that wants Dean to lose because they fear him.

[slinkerwink]

153. well, I won't count out any other campaign until the donor list is out

[Walt Starr]

154. Even then, I'm not counting out any campaign that does not

denounce the ad.

[slinkerwink]

157. you know what, let's do a FEC search and see which campaign

they donated money to.

[frustrated_lefty]

159. Walt...

calm down, a little at least. There really isn't evidence Kerry or Gephardt had anything to do with this. We have to be prepared for much worse than this.

Save the anger and outrage til February, when we know where the money for this comes from. If you have to do something with the outrage now, put it towards something productive....enroll new voters, donate to the campaign, hell, pay for an ad in your local paper expressing your view. Jumping on and of the candidates at this point is wasteful, it's spending your energy when there are better ways you could direct it.

[WillyT]

163. I'm Wondering What Kind Of Stress This Will Put On ABB !!!

I'm supporting Dean, and am not suprised that his rivals will try their best to beat him. I am not suprised that a few will gang up to block him. I'm not so naieve as to not expect a 'Stop Dean' movement. This has happened many times in Americas political history.


BUT..........

When I saw this shit, my first reaction was, "These mother fuckers better be careful how they go about stopping Howard Dean. Or I might just stay the fuck home!!!"

IOW - If they can out argue, out phone bank, out contribute, and out campaign Dean, good on 'em. I'll still support the Dem nominee! ABB!!!

Then THIS PIECE OF SHIT appears, and for the first time I'm realizing that some assholes IN OUR OWN RANKS may be engaging in what was called 'rat-fucking' by the Nixon boys. And if THAT is how the Dem 'Insiders' plan to stop Dean, then they may just lose my life long support for the Democratic Party.

I realize politics ain't beanbag, but it shouldn't be slappin your stepchildren either.

If your gonna stop Dean, be very fucking careful how you do it. You have thousands of new hopeful Democrats joining in this fight, many for the first time. And although I'm sure Dr. Dean will urge his supporters to keep the faith and throw their support to any other Dem if he were to lose the primary race, that does by NO means mean that they will. Once their hope is destroyed by feces flinging insiders, they will see the system as grotesque and corrupt, and may just go surfing on election day leaving the sewer rats to wonder once again why their tactics backfired on them.

And giving us all 4 more years of *.

:grr::nuke::mad:

[pruner]

204. if any Dem candidate is directly tied to this ad I will not vote for them…

if they end up winning the nomination.

I'll stay at home & smoke an extra joint instead.

[SadEagle]

176. well, realistically.

some campaigns probably can't afford to run the ad.

[SadEagle]

175. You forgot to list Lieberman.

eom

[Ksec]

158. Deans not like Usama... Id say he more closely resembles Saddam

The way he rules over his people and they worship him or are torn apart by the likes of the evil Deaniacs...

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

165. Uh...

check the rules

[Ksec]

167. It was meant to be funny.

You didnt think it was?

[frustrated_lefty]

169. My bad, Ksec

It is sometimes difficult to distinguish between satire and fervent beliefs, especially lately. :(

[Ksec]

173. No worries. I guess I have a pretty bad sense of humor

and its really hard to read when a serious conversation is going on. We Dems need to laugh occasionally . Its the only way you can handle the craziness of the world.

[SadEagle]

178. The scary part...

... is when I read that post of yours, I gave it only a 60% chance of being sarcasm. Not very encouraging wrt to my opinion of current DU flame wars, isn't it? :-(

[mitchum]

180. Yes, it was funny...

but notifying someone of an alert now fall under a personal attack (I just found out earlier this evening) Apparently you can't do that anymore (but I didn't rat on you)

[THX1138]

162. Contact Info for these creeps

"Americans for Jobs Healthcare and Progressive Values"

12700 Lake Avenue, Suite 1607
Lakewood, Ohio 44107

Phone:

202-285-0587 for press inquiries - Robert Gibbs

E-mail:

[e-mail]

[creativelcro]

166. ahah, this is gonna be the nail in the coffin for Gephardt and Kerry

[jpgray]

174. This is disgusting--I hope no campaign is part of it (nt)

[Myra]

188. This feels just like 911. Huge assault! Who dunnit? Who benefits?

Why on earth would info on an attack ad be leaked
to an obliging media in advance of its airing?

Who benefits?

[Zomby Woof]

190. it could be Rove, it could be Gep

Out of all the reindeer you know you're the mastermind
Run, run Rudolph, Randalph's not too far behind
Run, run Rudolph, Santa's got to make it to town
Randalph he can hurry, he can take the freeway down
And away went Rudolph a whizzing like a merry - go - round

Said Santa to a boy child What have you been longing for?
All I want for Christmas is a Rock and Roll electric guitar
And away went Rudolph a whizzing like a shooting star

Run, run Rudolph, Santa's got to make it to town
Can't you make him hurry, tell him he can take the freeway down
And away went Rudolph a whizzing like a merry - go - round

Said Santa to a girl child What would you like most to get?
I want a little baby doll that can cry, scream and wet
And away went Rudolph a whizzing like a Saber jet

Run, run Rudolph, run, run Rudolph, a running like a son - of - a - gun.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

191. This kind of crap hurts all Dems

I'm worried that we'll get out of the primaries with a Dem so tar-and-feathered by ourselves that Bush won't have to try very hard to win.

[slinkerwink]

192. because this ad legitimizes bush's foreign policy

which is so effing stupid.

[IndianaGreen]

206. This ad says that anyone that opposes the Iraq war is pro-terrorist

This is the sort of ad that may turn millions of antiwar voters away from the Democratic Party, particularly if it nominates one of the four prowar candidates, to a real peace party such as the Green.

A choice between continuing the war under Bush or a Democrat is a false choice!

[salin]

211. not to mention with the alienation and extreme vitriol between

supporters of various candidates that we cut our nose off in terms of being able to mobilize the level of grassroots campaigning that is going to be required to take on the bushies and their ugly campaigning and their extreme $$$ advantage.

[SahaleArm]

207. At this point the signs point to Dick Gephardt

http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/search.asp?NumOfThou=0&txtName=Feighan%2C+Edward&txtState=%28all+states%29&txtZip=&txtEmploy=&txtCand=&txt2004=Y&txt2002=Y&txt2000=Y&Order=N

FEIGHAN, EDWARD
LAKEWOOD,OH 44107
CENTURY INSURANCE GROUP/DIRECTOR
2/5/2003
$2,000
Gephardt, Richard A

FEIGHAN, EDWARD
LAKEWOOD,OH 44107
CENTURY BUSINESS SER
4/21/1999
$250
Democratic National Cmte

FEIGHAN, EDWARD F
NEW YORK,NY 10003
ALLIANCE FINANCIAL LTD
11/12/1999
$1,000
Flanagan, Edward Sawyer

FEIGHAN, EDWARD F
NEW YORK,NY 10003
ALLIANCE FINANCIAL LTD
6/16/1999
$1,000
Flanagan, Edward Sawyer

FEIGHAN, EDWARD MR
LAKEWOOD,OH 44107
SELF-EMPLOYED/CONSULTANT
6/17/2003
$2,000
DNC Services Corp

----------------------------

On Edit:

http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/search.asp?NumOfThou=0&txtName=Feighan%2C+Edward&txtState=%28all+states%29&txtZip=&txtEmploy=&txtCand=&txt1998=Y&txt1996=Y&Order=N

FEIGHAN, EDWARD
CLEVELAND,OH 44125
INVESTOR
11/2/1998
$1,000
Levin, Sander M

FEIGHAN, EDWARD
LAKEWOOD,OH 44107
ALLIANCE HOLDING COMPANY
5/16/1997
$1,000
Gephardt, Richard A

FEIGHAN, EDWARD F
LAKEWOOD,OH 44107
3/26/1998
$250
Green, Mark

[pruner]

208. that seems to be the consensus opinion at the Dean blog

I have no doubt that the truth will be uncovered by Dean bloggers, the media, or other forces long before the Feb. disclosure deadline.

[slinkerwink]

209. gotta agree

and now for bed....

[IndianaGreen]

210. Dickless Gephardt?

President, House Leadership Agree on Iraq Resolution



President George W. Bush along with bipartisan leaders from the House and Senate announced the Joint Resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Iraq. "The statement of support from the Congress will show to friend and enemy alike the resolve of the United States," President Bush said during the announcement in the Rose Garden, Wednesday, October 2, 2002. White House photo by Paul Morse.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-7.html

[Fahrenheit911]

213. dick!

ha ha.. what a sour loser sheesh

[janx]

214. "Former Gephardt and Kerry supporters" ?? Whom are

they supporting now?

Why doesn't the article divulge that?


What campaign is behind this?

[slinkerwink]

216. you have a PM

[windansea]

217. could it be Soros?

surprised no one has mentioned him

Looks like the big sharks are starting to circle

[Tinoire]

219. Welcome to DU! SOROS could very well be behind this

:toast:

I just posted this in another thread. Just spent an hour researching and documenting the Soros/Clinton/DLC/AEI angle. Soros is only giving $15 million to the Democrats to ensure that no matter which party wins the election, his investments remain safe.

So not to rub it in to all the people who were celebrating the arrival of this money (I honestly mean that) but, if Soros is behind this, where will the devil's money take these Primaries? I still don't like Dean because he's an opportunistic Centrist who talks out of both side however Dean is not (yet)signed on to the neo-con agenda. They have no idea how Dean will behave and can not risk their investment. Dean's been getting, like Gore, a little too carried away with the populist rhetoric and might get confused down the road. He might even be like Clinton and waffle- agree to bomb the crap out of Iraq for 8 years straight and spin his way out of an obscene war (like Yugoslavia) but he's not a member of the AEI's good old boy club yet and no one knows just how loyal a servant of the Empire he'll be.

Then of course, Edward Feighan could be a true progressive but I highly doubt it. There's one group that thinks they can scare us into voting for just wanyone with their rallying cry of ABB and "gotta look strong on security" and "gotta dismantle the terrorist network wherever it may be".

... Dean, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, doesn't have the military or foreign policy experience needed to take on "those who wake up every morning determined to destroy Western civilization."

This needs a lot more research. These primaries are going to be very, very ugly. The stakes are HUGE, corporations, neo-cons, and informed Progressives will be fighting ferociously over this election while sincere people remain totally oblivious to what's going on behind the scenes.

This is NO time for partisan politics and head-burying. We need to find out as much as possible about every single Democratic candidate out there and vote for the best, strongest one to defeat the Bush machine. And the strongest one is not necessarily Dean. Dean is waaaay too easy to defeat and you will NOT rally enough people behind him because of Dean's own contradictory statements, gaffes, and the fact that what he's paraded himself as to get the nomination is too easily turned to marshmallow fluff by his own words and record.

When Judicial Watch wins its suit to have Dean's records unsealed, Dean may end up finished and exposed as a fraud. I just pray that happens in enough time before the Primaries so that people can make an informed choice. If he turns out ok, then GOOD for Dean and GOOD for the Democratic Party because of all the support he has but, if he comes out as an opportunist hypocrite- then we can KISS THIS ELECTION good-bye and welcome to 4 more years of Bush. Partisanship be damned because it may very well damn us all.


Neo-cons
vs
Centrists
vs
Progressives
vs
Corporations
vs
sincere, confused people, who don't have a clue about what's really going on



====
Welcome to the Soros paid ads. Expect many more.

Edward F. Feighan was Bill Clinton's campaign Communications Director who got pretty close to Hillary at the Institute for Policy Studies
http://www.ips-dc.org/index.htm

It was Edward F. Feighan who introduced the Brady Bill in the House in 1987 as the NRA campaigned heavily against the gun control issue. http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Aborn1.html

George Stephanopoulos was his Administrative Assistant and later his Chief of Staff.
http://63.147.65.175/books/chap0411b.htm

Served on the Clinton Administration: Committee on Health, Education, Labor & Pensions
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/dward/classes/congpres/sim00.html

[windansea]

220. thanks!

and thanks for the research!

[Tinoire]

221. :) Anytime

One of these days we should have a discussion about Soros.

What compelled you to think of Soros? I have about 5 million threads here (slight exaggeration ;) ) about why he is the biggest danger to Democracy anywhere in the world.

This is typical Soros MO. What he is doing here is exactly what he did in Yugoslavia, Georgia, Venezuela and what he was trying to do in Russia before Putin arrested his mafia oil partner in crime, shut down Soros operation and sternly warned the US to stay the hell out of the Caspian Sea.

Anyway, why did you surmise it was Soros? I've just seen this coming for a while now.

I'm frankly a little surprised it took so long but it does take a while to establish all those Progressive Think Tanks and all.

While I agree with the points brought up in the ads, these politics are dirtier than usual and they're not coming from Bush.

[windansea]

224. just a guess

The battle is now engaged for control of the democratic party

Soros appears to side with the Clintons and others resisting a Gore/Dean takeover.

Mrs Clinton has positioned herself a hawk....why?

Like you, I do not trust billionaires who hop around the globe trying to influence elections.

[Tinoire]

226. I'd send you a PM but you don't have enough posts yet...

:(

Wanted to add to my friends list and find out what state you're in. Stay in touch ok?

Hillary, Hillary... I once had such hopes for her but they were dashed when I looked at her closely. My enthusiasm for Clinton was really dampened during his second term when I really woke up politically because of Yugoslavia, Haiti, WTO, NAFTA, Welfare Reform, etc...

My esteem of him was pretty much destroyed these last 2 years. As my hatred of Bush grew and I started looking at the people behind the scenes, I found too many strange alliances. If Hillary comes back, which I fear is the plan (for her to team up with Clark) then I am kissing the Democratic Party good-bye because the DLC & AEI will have won.

She's a bright woman but I can not agree with her politics.

[catherineD]

218. A Test. If Ad Works Against Dems, It Will Be Proven Right.

This should be an interesting test. If this ad is successful at swaying Democrats not to vote for Dean, then it would surely be effective if used by Republicans in the general election, where you'd have so many more waffling independents and only Bush on the other side.

While it does seem a bit below the belt, remember how vicious our Republican opponents will be. They would have thought of this on their own, there can be no doubt.

Let's see if Democrats are affected by this kind of advertising. Because that's the kind of information we need to know.

[Ksec]

222. To be fair if Dean was benefitting from this would you guys be mad?

Its all about money, you have it, its great, you dont , its not.

I havent seen the Deans complaining about the fact that they have loads more money than anyone else.

Free Market. It aint always fair to everyone.

[citizen snips]

223. I wonder if it will work.

I wonder if it will work. But I don't think these attacks on Dean will oust him from his top spot.