Did Dean Just Pull A "Karl Rove" Maneuver?

[KittyWampus]

Did Dean's own campaign use two former Gep & Kerry staff members to produce the ad which attacks Dean's lack of Foreign Policy experience by using Osama's image?

Remember how Karl Rove wiretapped his own office?

Remember when Junior's campaign mailed a copy of him practising for the debate to Gore's campaign?

This certainly helps get Dean's base all riled up...

Now Dean can get some sympathy while he also gets an opportunity to speak up about his Foreign Policy positions...

Hey, politics is a bloodsport and anything is possible....

Of course, there's no more evidence of Dean producing the ads then there is Kerry or Gep...

Just something to think about.

[SahaleArm]

1. An epiphany from a cynic:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=894830#894969

[mitchum]

23. No, I'm the ORIGINAL cynic...

I first brought this up on the original alarmi$t po$t (see posts 88, 100, 107)
Give my black heart credit when it is due

[SahaleArm]

24. Damn you beat me to it...

:evilgrin:

[KittyWampus]

27. Sort Of Like A Game Of Clue-Calling Miss Marple

[Myra]

49. You officially have credit where credit is due mitchum...

Ok, I don't actually have that authority...

[Myra]

50. Can I at least be the first person to compare this to 911?

The shock the horror the mayhem the confusion the pulling together against a common enemy...who was never identified. And we'll never know for sure because there won't be an investigation.

But who benefited?

There'll probably be a telethon on tomorrow to defend Dean against...this terrible ad that for some reason was leaked to the media in advance; how weird is that?

And now, many Dean supporters will close their minds to any legit criticism or questions about him. Put their fingers in their ears and scream laaa laaa laa to drown out the noise.

Hell, this ad might actually be a sleazy attack from another Dem.

But either way, when an ad is totally over the top like this one is, it's certain to make many Dean supporters dig in and stop listening.

[Walt Starr]

80. Who benefited the most?

Clark.

Clark must be behind the ad.

Fuck Clark.

[Alenne]

85. Dean

A lot of his supporters are saying they won't vote for anyone else but him if the other candidates don't denouce the ad. A lot of his supporters also donated more money to him after hearing about it.

It has only made the candidates accused of being behind it look bad.

Looks like Dean has benefited more.

[Walt Starr]

86. You've convinced me

It was a conspiracy of the Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman, and Clark camps.

The only thing more disgusting than the ad is to suggest Dean had anyting to do with it.

[Alenne]

87. No

The only thing more disgusting than the ad is blaming other candidates without any proof that they are involved. There is just as much proof that Dean is involved as there is that the other candidates are involved. NONE

[Walt Starr]

88. Guilty until they profess their innocence

That's how it works in politics.

[Alenne]

90. So I guess Dean is guilty also

He has beneifited the most. I understand how this works now. Thanks

[Walt Starr]

93. Dean is the victim here

And suggesting he had anything to do with the ad is even more disgusting than the ad itself, IMO. It also shows some hidden fear that a candidate or candidates are responsible, IMO.

[Alenne]

94. I personally feel

suggesting any of them had anything to do with it without having proof is disgusting. But if you and other Dean supporters can do it to the other candidates, what is wrong with supporters of the other candidates doing it to Dean.

[Faygo Kid]

2. Yeah, politics is a bloodsport.

Our blood will be on the line in a second Bush term, thanks to you Dean vs. Clark warriors here. Enjoy.

[mitchum]

29. Dude, I'm a Kerry man

[Ardee]

77. another reason to lose,huh?

I see democrats all to ready to enumerate the various reasons why they will lose, but far to reticent to post why they will win.

faygokid adds another such reason to the list, debate between supporters of the several candidates. That one goes to number two, behind the perpetual winner, Ralph Nader.On a wider note, Nader is now in second place in the list of why everything is wrong with the universe, right behind Clitnon's penus.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. I Don't Think There's Any Way

That despicable ad raises too many potentially difficult questions about Dean for him to have done it himself. One reason it's so evil is because in some ways it's so damn effective and true: one of Dean's weaknesses IS that he has no foreign policy experience.

You might also think me naive (which would be a rarity), but I also just don't think Dean would do something like that.

DTH

[KittyWampus]

4. I Can't Imagine ANYONE Doing It In Real Terms...

except a Republican????

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. Are Gephardt & Kerry's Former Allies Republicans?

If not, I think that some Democrats are behind it, sadly. My money is on DLC.

DTH

[salin]

31. Had this exact response (well almost) on another thread

that before seeing the "who", my thought was GOP/RNC. But to even consider that - means that RNC folks infiltrated the top level of two major dem campaigns.

[Skwmom]

67. Not necessarily. The RNC could have infiltrated the

ad group and gotten them to run an over the top ad rather than an ad comparing Dean's actual record with his constantly changing rhetoric. When tempers are high poor decisions are easily made.

Though I think the RNC could have infiltrated the campaigns. I think they've done the same with unions and the AARP. It's the destroy from within strategy.

[salin]

30. Not naive at all...

for the same reasons - this is potentially more harmful to dean (both in the primaries - and releasing as a gift to the GOP in the General Election) than even in the most cynical view it could be helpful. The political calculus does not make sense for this particulary amusing line of thought. It does make for a very convenient and creative denial, however.

For those that give no concern for the method used against any democratic candidate (and any similar ad - tailored to a specific candidate would work the same way - very bad in the long run for the party) - but who immediately forward the segretti excuse - I find dubious. If folks can not recognize that this level of attack - targetted towards any candidate - is not harmful in the long run to all democrats (including local councils voting against the Patriot Act, and all congressional reps who don't vote lock-step with the GOP - imo this is a form of "silencing dissent" for ALL candidates), before forwarding their theories about who is responsible... then I grow even more concerned for our united chances (eg joining together behind whoever the final nominee is) in the general election.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

32. Not to Highjack, But This Is Another Reason I Think Clark's Candidacy

Is so powerful. Stupid attacks like these just will not "stick" on him.

Great post.

:thumbsup:

DTH

[salin]

37. I like the general

am not firmly in any camp. I wish desperately that there was a very charismatic speaker among the candidates (but, imo, while there are good speakers there are none with that level of charisma that makes other things fade... but then again... what does that matter? Bushjr has the charisma of a grammitically challenged carnival barker!). I do appreciate that Clark, for the most part, has remained above the fray on rhetoric and antics.

For the greater good - I hope the two campaigns with which these individuals behind this ad used to work - actively distance themselves from this effort. To leave it standing - or to leave the innuendo that it was from Dean's campaign - leaves a very weak picture of the democratic party going into the primaries and general election.

[Don Claybrook]

5. That's not what I heard

I heard that Howard Dean was actually the DC-area sniper! Well, I mean, I didn't actually hear it, but it could be true, so I thought I'd post it here.

Also, have you considered that maybe, just maybe, Howard Dean drugged Michael Jackson and put that little boy into his bed? No one has mentioned that to me, but it could be true.

And did you ever consider that Dean might be working DIRECTLY for Karl Rove? Here's the deal: Dean knows he's unelectable, being a communist liberal centerist that Carter called conservative. So his power trip is to get the nomination, lose the election, and as a reward from Karl Rove, he'll be named the HUD Secretary! Well, I mean, no one told me that either, but I figure it must be true.

I've got a million more of 'em if you're interested.

[SahaleArm]

6. The ad hasn't aired and he's already fundraising on it *nm*

[eileen_d]

9. No, it did air

Someone in the longy-long-long thread posted and said they saw it on TV.

[SahaleArm]

16. They said they saw the ad - not that they saw it on TV.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=893464#893972

[Fleshdancer]

43. oops!

That was me, but I wasn't clear...too angry at the time! I saw it on the website, not on tv. I'll go back and edit my post.

[eileen_d]

44. I thought it was you who said that!

So I guess I understood what you meant. :hi:

What state did it show in?

[SahaleArm]

47. "I saw it on the website, not on tv"

:)

[eileen_d]

48. Oh my goodness...

I am officially an idiot tonight. :dunce:

Did I mention I donated to Clark today? Are you ashamed of me? x(

[Demobrat]

12. I bet he pulls in a million bucks, too.

*

[SahaleArm]

17. Yes a very good plan indeed.

This ad won't see the light of day on tv.

[caledesi]

65. Well my husband and I will be donating. "Bring it on." eom

[Raya]

13. Wish Campaign was as Progressive as it is Slick

[salin]

36. had that thought as well... not terribly "progressive".

ah words and self chosen names for organizations are so cheap. Trying to silence a good portion of Congress (all those who have voted against bush on various big issues) - isn't exactly "progressive". Whether or not that is the primary intent of the ad - it is a very likely outcome. Long hale trying to pressure all dems to vote lock step with the perceived "patriotic" bush - less be aligned with those who attacked the US on 911! Long hale the effort by democratic strategists (at least those who until recently worked with major democratic campaigns) to emulate the Saxy Chambliss assualt on Sen. Cleland. A sad day, indeed. I do hope that money has not been spent on this ad - as it forbodes a greater blow for us than rove himself could have dealt at this point in the primary (and its residual effects on Congressional Representatives and Senators in the next year before the elections.)

[pruner]

8. as soon as I heard the allegations against Michael Jackson…

my first thought was that Dean's gotta be involved in this.

;)

[Don Claybrook]

18. You clearly have keen instincts

I thought the same, of course. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something about him that screams 'used car salesman/insurance salesman/child molester'. And just look how angry he is! Anger doesn't win elections, and besides, who has a right to be angry after George Bush has repaired our economy, raised our stature in the world, created a new and thoughtful tone in Washington, and run the freedom-haters back into the holes from whence they came?

We have a saying in Texas. Fool me once...well, I forget the rest, but it's the first part I like.

(and just to keep it all lighthearted, yes, all of this was sarcasm, and I know your post was also. It's the best way to spend time in these anti-Dean threads.)

[Cha]

22. LOL!

[Myra]

39. Hee hee, good one Don.

:thumbsup:

[Eric J in MN]

10. How about evidence? (nt)

nt

[eileen_d]

11. Oh, you need evidence to post on GD now?

:evilgrin:

[pruner]

15. Dean-haters don't need no stinkin' evidence

:eyes:

[maggrwaggr]

14. good lord what a silly post

you actually hit the "submit" button on that one?

[Don Claybrook]

19. Let's be gentle....seizures really do happen sometimes. :) n/t

[Cha]

20. My thought exactly!

More to be pitied than censored.

[Dr Fate]

21. I doubt it. Sounds like Republican or DLC crap to me. n/t

n/t

[KittyWampus]

25. Sure Would Make DLC Lood Pretty Bad Though

Pretty good who-done-it....

[Hep]

26. True

No one will look bad until they find out who's behind it. And we won't, IMO.

[salin]

38. don't know which is worse...

republican would mean that GOP ops worked their way high up into two major democratic campaigns (the two principles behind the organization with this ad were previously with the Gephardt and Kerry Campaigns)... or that it is a bite from the party or other campaigns.

[tsipple]

28. CryingShame, Do You Denounce the Ad?

I sure do. We can agree on that, right?

[mitchum]

33. Uh, you're starting to sound a little Cotton Mather there

[KittyWampus]

35. Absolutely!!! Heck, I'll Donate $ To Dean If A Democratic

Candidate ends up having done this...

will we ever know?

[tsipple]

40. Bless You. Thank You.

I hope we'll find out who the scumbag(s) are who paid for this rubbish. (We know who heads this shadowy group at least.)

I think a lot of us are probably working on getting to the bottom of this disgusting attack.

[KittyWampus]

74. Okay, I'm Going To Qualify This- To Except Lieberman

:evilgrin:

[oasis]

34. "Former" Dem campaign workers can also become former Dem loyalists

if Rove waves enough money in front of them. If they think the presidency is lost anyway, what's the harm in making a fast buck?

[Fleshdancer]

41. If so, it wasn't neccessary

Since Dean is already the front runner, I imagine the campaign would want to use this rovian tactic only if one of the other candidates started to pull out in front of Dean. Plus, there isn't a lull in the fundraising since we just ended the Gore fundraiser an hour ago. So now wouldn't be the optimal time for the Dean campaign to pull something like this off.

If the Dean campaign was going to pull a stunt, then IMO, it would be smarter to have the secret organization be Republican rather than Democratic. That way, everyone would definately believe Bush was afraid of Dean and it would pull the Bush campaign into the race before they're ready and hopefully force them to start spending all that money.

Interesting excercise. Reminds me of chess.

[slinkerwink]

42. I don't think the campaign ever had anything to do with this

but that Gephardt or his unions did.

[Fleshdancer]

45. I certainly don't think so either

I just like to re-arrange the pieces of the puzzle sometimes...I have this thing for strategy games. :) Maybe I was detective in my past life.

[kayob1]

52. Just a thought

Who was that guy who introduced General Clark at the Florida Convention? Because right at the end of his introduction he said something about General Clark, "who doesn't need on-the-job training in foreign policy" or pretty close to that. Just thought it kind of odd for him to say that in an introduction, and now this. Makes you wonder.

[TorchTheWitch]

60. geez

Oh sure, Clark. Yeah riiiiiiight. Clark who has never once attacked any candidate even those (read: Dean) who have attacked him (and with a lie at that) or even when goaded by right wing reporters to do so.

:tinfoilhat:

[kayob1]

83. No, no

I said the guy who INTRODUCED Clark. I am not blaming Clark. It's just that it was Clark he was introducing, and I didn't it fit with Clark - you know, kind of bitchy - that's why it caught my attention.

[rucky]

46. I think i liked it better when Democrats were "spineless"

those were the days. last week.

[kodi]

51. why not go all the way and call in a hit on himself?

dean is too smart of half mesures, he would go all the way and pull a bulworth.

christ, i dont have to watch the X-files anymore on tv, all i have to do is log on here to get the strangest and goofiest stuff imaginable.

[SahaleArm]

53. You just figured that out...

:evilgrin:

[Myra]

54. Reporting from the front. The Dean telethon thread is going strong.

Raising tons of money and intimidating anyone who doesn't denounce THE AD.

$531,476 reported on post #3 of telethon thread.
Non-patriot targeted in same thread and confronted.
I'm pretty sure the bill of rights will have to be sacrificed if everyone doesn't denounce this ad, in order to make the thread safe for everyone.

[SahaleArm]

57. I think they meant signed on people, not money...

Although the whole thing wreaks of fundraising.

[Myra]

58. Thank you for the correction. I'm sure there's an algorithm...

To determine actual funds raised using newly recruited people as input.

[Alenne]

55. If Kerry and Gephardt can be accused with no proof,

so can Dean.

[killbotfactory]

56. Yeah, and he used former Gephardt and Kerry campaigners, too!

What A Gene-e-us!

[burning bush]

59. IF Dean Did This, It Proves One Thing...

That we certainly have a candidate that is able to stand toe to toe, head to head with Rove and W.

Ok Karl, let's play.... ;)

[Skwmom]

64. Could be Rove has an operative assisting the Dean campaign.

[Q]

61. You should have SOME kind of proof before you post something...

...like this. Otherwise, it's just a mindless attack and smear.

- THINK before you help the RWing propagandists.

[SahaleArm]

63. You need proof to post on GD? Oh no - close down all the threads *nm*

[Q]

68. Yes...when you make an accusation like this...

...proof is always necessary unless the thread author wants to be labeled as a spreader of BS, propaganda and misinformation.

- Leave this inventing of crap out of thin air to the GOPers.

[SahaleArm]

70. This is probably the third or fourth thread speculating on the origins...

of the ad; you can choose to ignore it if you wish.

[Skwmom]

62. I've been wondering the very same thing.

Osama doesn't need to be brought into the picture. It would be more effective to do "truth" ads exposing Deans record and flip-flopping rhetoric.

Of course maybe it's Rove that is behind the ad.

[OKNancy]

66. How about this possiblity

That it is what it appears. The Dean camp didn't do it ( but they can sure use it for their own purposes - nothing wrong with that)
and no other campaign was involved either. It is done by this group, headed by a former Congressman, who supports Gephardt, but who did it on his own.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

[SahaleArm]

69. Yeah but playing conspiricy is more fun

And yes, it's probably Gephardt :evilgrin:

[Cheswick2.0]

72. could be Clark

Bush doesn't do his own dirty work either.

[drfemoe]

71. For background info ..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=896077

Speculation is fine. But if you have a bent for real investigation, there are plenty of leads so far.

[Upfront]

73. Dean Did It

What crap.

[PatrickS]

75. Pure Flamebait

There's healty paranoia and there's this kind of paranoia which makes everyone look bad. Surprised this thread ain't locked yet.

[zulchzulu]

76. Dean will say or do anything to get money

Has he rescued any people lately? I know he rescued four people within a 6-month period when most doctors have that kind of thing happen once in their lifetime. Hmmmm, would Dean put illin' Deandroid plants in a crowd and run over and "save them" for political headlines?

This ad (which I would like to see) sounds exactly like something that Trippi would do. And then Ho Ho can go on all the TV channels (including Fox News, which he apparently enjoys despite playing the "we need to break up Fox") with crocodile tears and play "the Victim".

[KittyWampus]

79. Four People In 6 Months? Remember When Frist Stopped On Road

to help someone?

Lots of people suggested somehow that was "planned"

[Padraig18]

89. Have you ANY evidence to back up this wild-assed flame bait?

I noticed you don't seem to wanna respond to that question...

[robbedvoter]

92. About as much as you guys had to accuse everyone running of generating it

If we are going to throw wild accusations, let it rip!

[Rose Siding]

78. Now there's a secret everyone would keep

:eyes:

[Padraig18]

81. Do you have ANY proof to back up this flame bait bullshit?

:eyes:

[robbedvoter]

82. I dunno, but the threats and the intimidation sure look Rovian to me

Renounce Satan or we'll burn you" :puke:

[littlejoe]

84. That's the silliest thing I've heard today

[WillyT]

91. Poop !!!

:hurts: