"Just the Facts" Ad Fine, "Osama Ad "Tasteless

[kerryistheanswer]

You all should go watch the two ads being run by Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values and make up your own minds. http://38.113.97.196/websites/Health/default.asp?ID=2

I don't believe that either the Kerry of Gephardt campaign had anything to do with them and will denounce them today.

But I think the "Just the Facts" ad is fine, and in some ways necessary. Howard Dean's 100% NRA rating is scary and people need to know that. It's interesting that the ad includes Dean's support of Nafta - Kerry supported it too. It's just another reason why Kerry has nothing to do with the ad.

Peace.

[JailBush]

1. Hmmmmm...

I wonder how the NRA would rate Osama bin Laden...

[midnight armadillo]

2. Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values

The only member appears to be this Ed Feighan guy, a former Dem congressman.

Former Congressman Edward Feighan is the President of Americans for Jobs, Health Care & Progressive Values. He is also currently the Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer of ProCentury Corporation, the parent of the Century Insurance Group based in Columbus, Ohio.

The About Us page on their web site does not even mention anyone else. This group is, I suspect, basically acting as a front for anti-Dean money.

[drfemoe]

4. He's not the only member

for more background info see..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=896077

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. He's the one who gave $2000 to Gephardt

Edward Feighan. I have never heard of him before, but it's obvious he's filth.

[Skwmom]

3. I agree.

Truth ads exposing Dean's record and constant flip-flops on the record should be the approach.

[KaraokeKarlton]

16. Too bad the ad you approve of is telling lies, not the truth

n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Some Dems don't find Dean's rating as scary

I'm a leftist, but on the point of bearing arms I veer from traditional liberal thinking. I believe that what is needed is tighter controls to make sure convicted felons and mental patients don't get guns and that people who do get guns take gun safety courses. So Dean's position on guns doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I think he will gain votes because of it.

[Zynx]

6. It could easily be a Gephardt ad though.

The foreign policy experience one seems like a Kerry ad though. Gephardt doesn't really have any "experience" other than being in Congress which is quite irrelevant in of itself.

[solinvictus]

7. Dean and the NRA

What is the big deal about Dean's support of gun rights? Face it, gun control, as expressed by the Million Mom March/Brady Campaign/ Violence Policy Center was instrumental in losing Gore several states that he should have won in 2000. The Democratic party leadership needs to see that this is a dead issue that will do nothing but siphon votes if invoked.

[eyesroll]

8. Also: The NRA ratings are "passive" -- that is, the candidate does nothing

to piss off the NRA, he or she will be rated highly automatically. The candidate or politician doesn't actually need to do anything to get an NRA rating. Since Vermont is a state with low gun crime, and not much clamoring there from either side of the aisle for gun control, there hasn't even been much opportunity to get anything other than an A rating.

I might also garner a high rating from the NRA -- I have never lobbied for gun control, or against gun rights (or, for that matter, I've never lobbied for gun rights or against gun control -- this isn't a big issue for me).

I suspect that if Dean was governor of a state that really wanted some gun laws, his rating would be different.

[kerryistheanswer]

9. stop making excuses

Look on NRA's website and you will see thousands of people who've been identified as enemies of the NRA - Jerry Seinfeld, Britney Spears, etc. - did these people speak out strongly against the NRA? Probably not.

Howard Dean has NOT been passive in his support of NRA policies. Don't make excuses - that's his record and people should know about it.

[eyesroll]

10. Again: As governor of Vermont, he had no reason to want gun control

His constitutents didn't want it. The crime stats didn't beg for it.

From his issues page:

If you say “gun control” in Vermont or Wyoming, people think it means taking away their hunting rifle. If you say "gun control" in New York City or Los Angeles, people are relieved at the prospect of having Uzis or illegal handguns taken off the streets. They’re both right. That’s why I think Vermont ought to be able to have a different set of laws than California.

I believe the federal gun laws we have -- like the Brady Bill -- are important, and I would veto any attempt to repeal or gut them. The Assault Weapons Ban expires next year, and it should be renewed. Although President Bush has claimed he supports renewing it, he is talking out both sides of his mouth; his staff has signaled that he doesn’t want or expect Congress to renew the ban, and that is wrong.

I don’t think we need a lot of new federal laws. But we do need to do a few things at the federal level, like requiring Insta-Check on all retail and gun show sales. We also must do a better job of enforcing the laws on the books. President Bush promised to be tough in enforcing gun laws, but his Administration has prosecuted only about 2% of all gun crimes and they are virtually ignoring 20 of the 22 major federal gun laws on the books. That is an abysmal record, and as President, I’d make tough enforcement a reality, not just political rhetoric.

After that, I would let the states decide for themselves what, if any, additional gun safety laws they want. Just as we resist attempts by President Bush to dictate to the states how we run our school systems and what kind of welfare programs to have, we need to resist attempts to tell states how to deal with guns beyond existing federal law and fixing a few loopholes and problems.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_sensiblegunlaws

I know the major objections to this -- that guns and criminals don't recongize state borders, that the assault-weapons ban is just window dressing, etc.

Look, I'm not making excuses. I don't like the NRA as an organization. I have no idea how one gets on the NRA enemies list. It's silly anyway. But I don't disagree with Dean on this -- I don't really think more federal gun control would be effective or necessary.

Neither you not I can predict what Dean would have done in, say, New York City, if he was the mayor and a gun-control bill came across his desk. I suspect he would have signed it, if it was reasonable and enforceable. I believe Dean pays attention to the wants of his constituents. But that's pure speculation.

And remember how John Edwards told Dean that people in the South don't like northerners coming in and telling them what to do? Well, in this example, Dean is explicitly saying he won't tell people in the South (or anywhere else) what to do, beyond some common-sense federal stuff. I think this position will resonate in many places.

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. Actually, you are wrong

The only time Dean had any dealings at all that I'm aware of with the NRA was during the time he was working on protecting the Champion lands. The NRA pushed for it's members to support Dean in his effort to protect the lands from development. So, the NRA was sticking up for an environmental issue that everyone here can agree with them on. Vermont has never been a gun rights vs gun control battle state. The only state issues the NRA is involved in here is environmental and preservation issues, where they are on the same page as Democrats. Too many anti-gun people seem to forget that the NRA and Democrats are not always on different sides of an issue.

The A rating has nothing to do with anything. There was never any gun control vs gun rights battles here so there were no gun control laws. Any politician who hasn't played a part in gun control has an A rating by default.

[eyesroll]

11. My comments on the ads themselves

They won't load on my computer right now, so I'm basing this on the descriptions I've hear.


I agree that they're probably not coming from the Kerry or Gephardt campaigns (or any of the other Dem campaigns.). Too often, we do confuse supporters of a candidate -- or even former supporters of a candidate -- with the campaigns themselves.

Putting Osama Bin Laden in an ad like this is tasteless and obnoxious.

Pointing out the facts in an attack ad is OK. Assuming that the ad stuck to facts (like I said, haven't seen it), it's fine if it points out what the ad designers see as shortcomings. So, based on what I've heard, I agree with the assessment in your threat title.

[webkev]

12. Endoresd by the NRA????????

Whaaaaaaaa!!

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. One of the people behind the ad is a supporter of Gephardt

and contributed $2000 to his campaign. I know Kerry and Gephardt supporters don't want to think they are involved in this, and I can't blame them. However, when I consider the way both of them have tried to harm Dean by playing into fear, race baiting, and these same kinds of attacks, affiliation with those behind the ads and the fact that they are saying the exact same things makes it very difficult for me to think they aren't involved. And frankly, this behavior is even more "Bush-Lite" than their war votes. The truth will be known in February who is involved with that ad. And I hope that if they are behind it that they will be voted out of their current positions because anyone who would do this isn't fit to hold public office.

[webkev]

14. what scared me most about this add..

..is that it was actually being gentle on Howard Dean compared to what the repugs will do,,

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. The ad won't hurt Dean at all

The reason people are upset over it is because it came from Deomcrats who basically said that Bush is better on defense and foreign policy than Dean would be. Anyone who honestly believes that is a total idiot.

[cally]

19. That's what I think

The republican ads will be much worse. Dean better figure out a better way to respond than whining about other Democrats.

Dean was the first to attack fellow Democrats and frequently distorts the other candidates record.

[hedda_foil]

20. Dean and the campaign can handle the ad and its backers.

In fact, in case you didn't notice, we already are ... and I don't just mean the new bat to fight it. Did you happen to notice how the press handled these ads and this group? Check the WP and NYT if you haven't. How do you think they found out who was behind these ads? We all know damn well that the press isn't that curious. We've got a great oppo team that doesn't waste its time digging up spin points against other Dems. (Frankly we bloggers are more than up to THAT task for heaven's sake, and the campaign doesn't use those tactics anyway.) Our oppo (I doubt if they even needed that Ace guy to do it) tracked down the key players and their links in no time. Now Ace ... I have no doubt Ace is tracking the funding because that's what good oppo is about.

I would never believe that Gep and Kerry could be involved in this kind of crap except they've been using the same kind of garbage in their campaigns and they dissed GORE, our elected President!

[retyred]

21. From what I've seen in these two ads alone

If dean can weather the truth with a little help of his friends, he can certainly hold his own with the lies as long as his supporters keep sending money.