The reason the anti-Dean ad is so wrong

[KaraokeKarlton]

Is that it implies that George Bush is better on defense and foreign policy than Dean would be. Any Democrat who actually believes that or tries to push that kind of thinking is not only an idiot, but they are sending the message to swing voters that the frontrunner Democratic nominee (strongest candidate in the eyes of the public) is worse than Bush on these issues. Those behind this ad basically told the voting public this: "Don't vote for the Democrats because we are weak on defense!" This ad isn't just against Dean, it's against the entire Democratic Party. Anyone involved in this should just join the Republican Party, in my opinion because that's who they are pulling for.

[HFishbine]

1. Not only that

As John Edwards has been driving home latley, what people need is a message of hope. Others, it seems, would rather wallow in Bush's fabricated paradigm of fear. A candidate who tries to convince voters that he or she is best suited to to play on Rove's court is selling out democratic values. No thanks. Give me a candidate who repudiates the lies and fear-mongering; one who will stand up for the truth and for democratic values -- that's the guy I'll vote for.

It's more of the same ol' crap really. Just as they did when they voted for the IWR, some spineless candidates are capitulating, once again, to the Bush world view in order to advance their political careers. They were wrong to buy into the Bush stratagem the first time and they are wrong to appropriate his contrivences this time. They apparently will never learn that democrats want an opposition party, not automatons on the assembly line of manufactured fear.

If any candidate is behind these ads, and I'm reserving judgement for now, he can rest assured that he WILL NOT get my vote, not in the primary, not in the general.

[KaraokeKarlton]

10. Edwards has done one thing that bothers me

It was what he said about Dean's confederate flag comment. He never should have taken the "We don't need some northerner coming down here and telling us what to think" route. That's a Dixiecrat line and I was really disappointed over it. Other than that, Edwards has been one of the candidates I like other than Dean. Dean is always going to be my favorite, but I like Clark and Edwards too.

[maddezmom]

2. is the ad on-line?

I'm sure it's been posted if it has but I missed it.

[HFishbine]

3. Here

Yes, view them here:

http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=2

[maddezmom]

4. thanks

[DianeK]

5. you can watch the ad

at the deanblog website http://blog.deanforamerica.com/

i was surprised to see another bat so soon but i will have to drag out the plastic again

[zulchzulu]

6. The link to the ad

http://38.113.97.196/websites/Health/images/flash/movie2.wmv

Windows Media file

As for you thinking it is attacking the Democrats generally, well it isn't. It's a warning that Bush will use Dean's lack of foreign policy experience and make such ads.

While the ad is a little manipulative using OBL on Time with the usual VO and eery music, it does actually bring up the point that this next election IS going to be about national security and foreign policy experience.

[w13rd0]

7. Capitulating to the GOP agenda again?

THAT is what is losing elections. Quit capitulating to their framing of the debate.

[zulchzulu]

15. You are capitulating with GOP agenda by supporting Dean

It's both frightening and funny that Deaniacs can't take ANY criticism of their flawed candidate and resort to calling any criticism of Dean as "acting Republican" or whatever.

You have your blinders on! Take them off.

The GOP wants Dean so bad they can taste it. That's the Republican agenda....support Dean.

[PatrickS]

16. LOL!!!!!!

Sure :eyes:

[liberalmuse]

19. Nope.

The Republican agenda is to get Democrats to attack their own candidates instead of attacking Bush, and then stand back and watch the Democratic Party eat itself. After reading your words, I'm afraid they are succeeding.

[zulchzulu]

28. So Stalinist rule should be the norm?

Are the marching orders now to not criticize Dean?

OK, then why is Dean attacking his fellow ooponents? Is that cool but the others can't show Dean's flaws?

[AntiCoup2K4]

27. And according to you, the best way to fight the GOP agenda is with...

A Skull and Bones member advised by PNAC who wants to appoint James Fucking Baker the election fixing nazi criminal to his cabinet.

Sorry, I don't think so!

[zulchzulu]

32. Tin foil hats are on special

Are you saying Kerry was advised by PNAC and would have Baker in his cabinet? Surely, you jest.

As for the S&B, Kerry did get in and that whole pile of bile about a "secret government" bladdedy blah blah blah is for black helicopter conspiracy "theorists". If anything, Kerry was integral in getting women, minorities, gays and Jews to be allowed for the silly Yale frat award. Ask the many writers, poets, artists and others who are members about Skull and Bones. They'd laugh that the meetings were a bore.

[JNelson6563]

51. Here's the deal with Kerry

How many times have I seen his supporters assure us he has the goods on the BFEE. Oh yeah, gonna bring those bastards down! They've hated and feared him for ages! Yes indeedy, he knows so much they are history, like the minute he's sworn in. He knows all there is to know about their slimey ways and is the man to take them down.

Of course he voted for their war of imperialism AND, admitted recently he didn't know the boy king "would fuck it up" so badly.

Boy with an expert like that....:eyes:

But we're all idiots for not thinking like you that he's the king shit. Whatever.

Julie

[Hep]

33. That's what you call criticism?

The bar for valid thoughts on this forum are so low I can't believe this isn't a RIGHT WING site.

[Cha]

54. what a ZILCH statement.

[sendero]

64. Yawn...

.... this debate is ridiculous. "Lack of foreign policy experience"?

How much did Bush* have, and how well has he done? Dean has done the best job and will do the best job of convincing the American people that Bush* hasn't a clue what he is doing in foreign affairs and the results prove it. Where is Iraq Democracy? Where is Saddam? Where is OBL? Where is our consensus coalition? Why is Iraq practically an entirely American burden?

If the Reps want to make this their issue, bring it on. Dean will shove it down their throats, because he dropped the pink tutu long ago and the other candidates (except Clark) are still trying to wriggle out of theirs.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. I'm a swing voter, registered Independent

My reaction to the ad and perception of it is going to be more in line with how other swing voters react to it. The clear message I got from the ad is that the Democratic Party has no faith in their stongest candidate, so why should I.

[Sideways]

21. Like Chimp Has Any Experience In Either Field..You Ain't Thinkin Straight

Ahhhh Fucking nonsense the fucking chimp can't tie his own fucking shoes. Security....foreign policy.... Dubya...please don't make me crap my pants.

Can we say AWOL DOWN SYNDROME TWIT WHO SPITS IN THE WORLD'S EYE BECAUSE HE IS A DRUNKEN FUKWITTAGE IS GOING TO HAVE THE ASS THAT HE HAS SHOVED UP HIS HEAD GONE IN NOVEMBER.

Good I knew you could....

[rucky]

40. If I didn't know that Dems were behind this...

I'd swear the GOP was.

I was making fun of the Dean bat last night, but I'm donating right now.

Thanks to this thread, I also got to put my first person on ignore! Another Dean basher with a low post count. Where do you suppose they're all coming from, anyways?

[salin]

8. Is this ad just on-line, or are there plans to run it on tv?

My understanding is that it has not been 'aired' on TV. Are there plans to do this or is it just an online flash type ad?

[PatrickS]

9. I agree

Anyone who thinks this ad is correct is not a democrat.

[zulchzulu]

18. Whoever disagrees with the ad is brainwashed

The ad makes the point that Dean has no foreign policy experience. Bush will make that a HUGE issue.

If the ad is incorrect, then please, please, please tell me what national security and foreign policy experience Howard Dean has.

Please. Pretty please...

As for Dean choosing a VP to cover up that huge hole in his candidacy, that shows by default and is admitting that he is a weak candidate to run against Bush.

[PatrickS]

20. And what foreign policy experience

did Dumbya have before he was selected as pretzeldent?

NONE! NADA. ZIP. RIEN. NOTHING!!!!!!

And that doesn't seem to bother ya.

[HFishbine]

22. The ad is not incorrect

so much as it is deceptive. It starts with the assumptive premise that the boogey man wakes up everyday ready to take down Western civilization. It's fear mongering and an unworthy message to send to the home of the brave.

[kentuck]

48. I suppose they could say Dean would be like Bush was at first.....

He could come into office with no foreign policy experience and be caught asleep at the wheel, as he was when the WTC was attacked. He was the CinC. The buck stopped with him and he and his supporters cannot accept responsibility. We wouldn't want Dean to be like Bush. Is that the argument?

[coloradodem2005]

50. Hmmmm. No Foreign policy experience (Dean)....

....as opposed to someone who makes nothing but foreign policy blunders (Bush).

[mzmolly]

57. Whoever agrees with this ad is "brainwashed"

Osama Bin Laden is roaming around 'in spite of Washingtons collective foreign policy experience.' This add plays into Bush's hands, Rove couldn't have done any better at helping the Bush cause.

Deans so called lack of experience led him to the right decision on the war, and "If I were an impolite person, I'd tell Gep/Kerry where they could put their so called foreign policy experience." ;)

[Demobrat]

11. The whole ad is based on the mistaken premise

that Bush is even competent on foreign policy. BUSH HAS FUCKED UP FOREIGN POLICY COMPLETELY! And any Democrat that goes along with the false premise that Bush has any strength in that area at all is a disgusting Bush enabler.

[retyred]

12. The ad is just a preview

of things to come, nothing more, nothing less.



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[Hep]

23. We need a preview?

Like we didn't already know what was coming?

To the people who don't participate in politics this early and saw that ad, this was NOT a preview. It was the main attraction.

[sistersofmercy]

13. Let me ask you this

Does this ad change your opinion of Dean? Obviously, no and I suspect no other Dean supporters. In my eyes, whether I disagree with the running of the ad or not, it allows Dean a chance to get the issue out of the way or in other words, when bush* co try to use it as a line of attack the strategy will be less effective. So if you fervently believe Dean will get the nomination, don't sweat it. Eventhough, I don't support Dean at the moment, I believe he is very cunning and will choose a VP that would also leave no room for this questioning. Peace

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. I'm not talking about how the ad affects people already supporting anyone

I'm telling you that if this ad airs on television it's going to turn off swing voters and the undecideds who haven't been paying attention.

The media has convinced the public that Dean is the front runner and will probably be the nominee. If this ad airs the message it sends to the voting public is that the best the Democratic Party has to offer should not be voted for because it will leave us open to another terror attack. The only person this ad will help if aired is Bush. Any Democrat who takes part in this is harmful to the party and the country.

[sistersofmercy]

24. I think we have a long way to go before the election and plenty of

time to clear up the issue that bush* would be better at US security. If one tv ad would cause swing voters and undecideds to fall into the bush* co camp, it would have happened when bush* campaign kicks into full force attack and still may.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. You're missing the most important point here

Sure Bush will run ads like this...and voters will see it as the Republican trying to convince them he is better. When Democrats run ads like this against their own voters will see it as the Democrats admitting that they are weak on defense and terrorism and that they have NO CONFIDENCE in their ability to lead the country effectively.

If you don't think this is bad for the entire party you aren't looking at it objectively.

[sistersofmercy]

42. No I am looking at this with a great deal of objectivity.

The truth is this ad will quite possibly swing some undecided Dem voters behind another Dem candidate that you don't support but to assume it's going to affect the campaign next fall is just placing more importance on the ad than need be.

[shindig]

52. Wrong! Dean would be the challenger to Bush!

You said: "Sure Bush will run ads like this...and voters will see it as the Republican trying to convince them he is better."

DEAN, as challenger to the incumbent, HAS TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT WHY HE IS BETTER THAN BUSH. Otherwise the incumbent war time president wins by default. How can Dean argue that he is better than Bush on foreign policy? Preaching to the choir is not good enough. WE all KNOW already that BUSH IS NO GOOD. But to win the general election, Dean must convince others, besides us, that he is better. He can't, because he has no foreign policy experience. Do you not understand this? You can pretend that foreign policy experience does not matter in the is election, or we must choose another candidate as a nominee, ONE WHO CAN make the case that he is better than Bush. That candidate is Wesley Clark.

[zulchzulu]

25. This is purely wishful thinking

I'd rather this ad run now and show one of the major weaknesses in a Dean candidacy and get the message out to the voters that have no idea that Bush will use this type of ad (which unfortunately for Dean, happens to be true) about having a candidate that has zero foreign policy and national security experience running in a time of war against a wartime president.

As for somehow thinking that Dean has been appointed the candidate because the self-appointed kingmaker Al Gore says so, you have a bit to learn about politics.

Clearly this ad (and many more like it will come) shows the voting public that they don't have to vote for a flawed candidate.

Dean, pure and simple, is NOT the best the Democratic Party has to offer. And the voters will start seeing that and are beginning to see that reality.

Dean has been given a free pass on his record and lack of experience for too long while he attacked the other candidates as "Washington insiders".

Well, now with Gore laying the medal of "Washington Insider" around Dean's neck, he can't pontificate about that lie any more either.

[HFishbine]

45. And who is the best the dems have to offer

in your opinion?

[shindig]

53. Wesley Clark is!

Because he can make a case that he is better than Bush on foreign policy, which is what the election will be all about. And his domestic policy is liberal too boot. If we could only let go of this Dean steamroller, we can put our best candidate forward and go on offense. Clark will put us in offensive mode, because he can neutralize what the Republicans want to run on. Once the republicans are neutralized on their main (only?) issue, the sky is the limit for us all. Don't you see why the republicans want to run against Dean and how General Clark is their worst nightmare? With Dean, we stay on defense the whole time because he will never be able to neutralize the Repubs on the foreign policy stuff.

[Cha]

58. Yes...Dean will be able to "neutralilze the

repubs on foreign policy"...9/11 happened on the Fricken' watch of the bushwa...ya can't get much worse than that!
Dean is a fighter and it's all good.

[mzmolly]

59. Dean is the best the party has to offer....

and he's going to go up against Bush. The people who ran this add care more about their own ass then they do this country. They may very well contribute to another 4 years of Bush co.

Shall we thank them in advance?

[Upfront]

26. Dean has a Brain

B*** lacks one. This is a blatant attack on Dean, nothing else!

[Q]

29. You're right...the ad makes the assumption that Bush's* foreign policy...

...is not only acceptable...but superior to that of the (current) Democratic frontrunner.

- And with the 'mainstream media' beating the war drums and having no complaints about Bush's* foreign policy blunders...this ad only reinforces what the Bush* media is telling them.

- If this ad was put together by a Democrat...they're a traitor to the Democratic party AND America.

[kentuck]

49. As John Kerry said...

He fucked it up.

[mzmolly]

61. Johns foreign policy experience should have prevented said fuck up.

That's what experience is supposed to be for...you know, doing the right thing.

[AntiCoup2K4]

30. This sickening ad is nothing but the last pathetic gasps of breath from...

...a candidate who just can't "ketchup" to the frontrunner, so he'll try to drag him down along with him.

[Romberry]

31. Not only that but is a direct attack on...

..hundreds of thousands of other Dean supporters and that includes me. Kerry and Gephardt and Lieberman have proven that it's all about them. If they can't win the nomination then they will drag Dean down with them.

With Democrats like these, who needs Republicans?

[Cha]

56. Fortunately ...no matter how hard they try...

Dean is Not draggable!

[zulchzulu]

34. Please list Dean's foreign policy/national security experience

List it. I'll then admit the ad was wrong. Otherwise, the ad is correct.

All you have to do is list his foreign policy/national security experience. It should be real easy.

[slinkerwink]

37. Dean has dealed with the prime minister of Canada since Vermont

is right there on the border. Dean's also talked to the president of Venezuela, and been to 51 countries in his lifetime, more than Bush ever has before he became president.

[zulchzulu]

39. Got links?

Do you have any info on the talks with Canada (Jacques Cretain) or why he was talking with the Venezuelan president? NAFTA and South American oil maybe?

As for being in other countries, were those ski jaunts? :->

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. You are missing the point entirely

There is one message that will reach voters with this ad, and one message only. It is this:

Democrats have no confidence and concede that they are weak on defense and terrorism. They are telling me that even they think I should vote for Bush if I want to be safe.

If Bush runs ads like this it is viewed as one party trying to convince voters that they are better than the other party.

If Democrats run ads like this against Democrats it is viewed as one party trying to convince voters that the other party is better than they are.

There is a distinct difference. It sickens me the way Deomcrats participate in self-sabotage.

Why do they do this?
:shrug:

[zulchzulu]

41. OK, look at the Dean ads and tell me they don't attack others

Do they? Yes. Checkmate!

[HFishbine]

67. Gotta link?

What Dean ads?

[slinkerwink]

47. they'd rather have control of the party than let us have it

even if it means four more years of Bush.

[SahaleArm]

63. So if Dean gets control he'll automatically win the election? *nm*

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

60. Dean has shown he has the ability to make better decisions than those

that claim to be 'experienced' in foreign policy. I'll take the wisdom of Dean, over the so called experience of the Iraq War enablers any day. Instead of spending 170 billion searching for Osama, we are spending it needlessly in Iraq thanks to the 'leadership' and 'vision' of Kerry and Gephardt.

[mzmolly]

66. I'll list Kerry's recent experience...

supported the Iraq War Resolution.

[slinkerwink]

36. exactly

[w4rma]

44. That ad, and the orginization that produced it, is despicable. (n/t)

[KaraokeKarlton]

46. yes, it is

n/t

[Cha]

55. It's Ghoulish and show very Low

mentality.

[Duder]

62. Dumb Democrats

It's offensive to "progressives" as there's nothing "progressive" about this group. To pose behind a front like this is chickensh*t and I consider those responsible to be the Anthrax Coulter's of the Democratic party. A Democrat that supports this Osama gop-lite crap might as well send a contribution to the rnc and prepare for the "national security" of 4 more years of plastic and duct tape. Democrats that complained about the recent gop terrorist ad and not this one are hypocrites,imo.

I'm going to go send a contribution to the candidate whose foreign policy the real President of the United States has faith in.

[mzmolly]

65. Email them here...

[e-mail]