Can we all discuss something very important?

[KissMyAsscroft]

I just wanted to start off by apologizing for bashing Kucinich.

Let me explain my position.

My position is that there are thousands of people in America with great ideas and awesome speeches to give. Kucinich has good, valid points as do all of the other candidates. I recognize that, and so do Dean supporters.

That being said...these CANDIDATES are RUNNING FOR OFFICE.

They are trying to become the next POTUS. They are not running for city council, they are not giving speeches at a university, they are trying to further progressive goals nationaly.

Therefore, we should be supporting the canidate who can WIN. Supporting Kucinich or Sharpton or Braun is POINTLESS.

I supprt Dean because he has the charisma, the money and the fight in him to beat Bush. I do not agree with all of his positions, but he will point us in the right direction.

The reason I was comparing Kucinich to Nader was because they will both LOSE. Next year after they both lose, no one will give a RATS ASS what their ideas were. That will be IRRELEVANT. It will be business as usual.

Under a Dean presidency, Kucinich's views would gain more ground. It isn't going to happen all at once, you must take baby steps and vote with your party. That is the ONLY way you will ever have a chance to bring Kucnich's ideas to fruition.

For the last time people....FIGURE IT OUT! Dont throw away your vote! I am not telling you what to do, I am stating REALITY.

[Darranar]

1. Assuming that Kucinich is unelectable...

(which I am not sure is true), at the very least he manages to fight the others hard and bring them to the Left. He challenges them when they're wrong. He can be honest, because he doesn't have reporters watching his every word. Electable or not, he's wotrthy of support.

[liberalhistorian]

2. I fully agree, and that's

the point I've been trying to get across to every Dem I know. Normally, it wouldn't really matter much, but this is the most critical election we've ever faced as a nation and we simply MUST MUST MUST all put aside our differences and divisions, pull together and focus like a laser beam on the one sole goal of getting the Bushistas the hell out of the WH, or they will, quite literally, destroy this country.

And that is also a very good point about Kucinich's ideas gaining more ground under a Dean administration, or that of any other more "mainstream" Dem. I wish more people would understand that.

[KissMyAsscroft]

6. Excactly.

Imagine Kucnich running against an incumbent Dean and not Bush.

[Kanary]

3. You can yell and be rude in other people's threads all you want

And liberalhistorian, you can agree all you want.

That isn't going to make ONE Kucitizen jump ship and suddenly send money to Dean.

All it does is add to the increasing volume, and the increasing unhappiness with Dean.

Ease up, already.

Kanary

[liberalhistorian]

14. Who was yelling and being rude in

a thread? Was that something that happened earlier, I've only been on here about a half hour.

And no, I'm not at all against Kucinich, in fact, I live near Cleveland and was around 12 when he was elected as mayor so I've pretty much grown up with him and have always very much admired and respected him and his ideas, especially the way he's stuck to his beliefs and principles no matter what shit was thrown his way or what pressure was put on him. His decision not to sell the municipal power plant, which was blamed for putting the city into default when it was really the blackmail of the banks, many of whose board members were also on the boards of the private power plants that would have taken over the municipal plant's business and thus screwed many citizens over, was especially noteworthy and deserving of praise and has been found, in hindsight, to have been the right decision.

But he's simply not electable as a mainstream candidate, and that fact has to be faced, unfortunately. We MUST win this election, and I frankly don't think Kucinich would have any chance at all, especially not in this media environment.

[never cry wolf]

4. I disagree

I agree that Dennis does not stand a chance to win the nomination and feel that Roveco would tear him a new one in the GE if he somehow were to get the nod.

But, I do feel that each candidate has a say in framing the debate and the Dem talking points. Look at how Dean really brought the Anti-war message and Bush bashing into the fore at a time when most of the candidates were afraid of being accused of being labeled traitors and soft on defense.

Dennis offers alot of great ideas to the whole and by him being the farthest to the left naturally pulls the others that way to some extent. His stand on BBV and putting the Diebold memos on his web site hopefully will force the others to do likewise.

Since we do not have a parlimentary system the nomination process is one of the few ways "outsiders" have to help build a platform. If Dennis were to get some support and money you can bet the other candidates would want to know why and move in that direction in the same way they saw the success of Dean over the anti-war issue and started to whack shrub as well.

My policy views are maybe most aligned with Dennis but I am as yet undecided and being in Illinois with a late primary my vote will be mostly meaningless, I suspect by then the field will be quite evidently narrowed down, but I DO want everyone's voice to play a part and leave it's mark. Dennis will not get the nomination but the longer he can state his views by staying in the hunt the more the eventual nominee will have to address his issues.

I will support our candidate wholeheartedly once selected but supporting Dennis at this stage detracts nothing from the GE.

on edit: spelun and stuff

[KissMyAsscroft]

5. thats all I ask...

Just vote for the Dem who will win, you will be better off for it and so will Kucinich.

[never cry wolf]

9. I will vote for the Dem in the GE

and pray to God he will win. In the primary I intend to vote for the candidate (whoever is still in it by then) who I believe would do the best job as president of our nation. As of now, I do not know who that is.

[MuseRider]

7. Thanks for the apology but

there are many of us who are willing to take the risk to support Kucinich, after all it is only the primary. If he wins that I do not think he stands any less chance against Bush* than any of the others, except perhaps for Dean who I see as entirely unelectable. To me Dean has 0 charisma, I don't think he stands a chance in hell against Bush*. Now this is just my opinion, I am not bashing you all. I have enormous respect for the commitment to Dean that you all have but statements by his supporters who are not (like it or not) any more credible than any of the rest of us, that our candidates do not stand a chance are just as polarizing as those who would say that voting for our guy is a vote for Bush*. So I am NOT going to figure it out. No vote is thrown away when it is cast for the right reason and I do not share your version of reality.

[Zomby Woof]

8. charisma is your FIRST reason?

I supprt Dean because he has the charisma

I am impressed. Charisma! ALWAYS a valid reason to support someone. You mentioned money too, of course. Knowing history like I do, charisma is NOT always a desirable quality. It can go either way.

FDR: Good charisma.
Hitler: Bad charisma.

Ghandi: Good charisma.
Robespierre: Bad charisma.

And so on. Although I will add that Dean has none, so that makes your choice even more astonishing.

As for the rest of what I want to tell you about your screed that I am "wasting" my sacred vote, before the primaries have even started, is prohibited under DU's new civility rules.

[KissMyAsscroft]

16. No...

His issues are what draws me, and he obviously has charisma or else he wouldn't have a dime.

And who the hell was talking about Hitler, that is just insanity.

Charisma is important in a candidate, look at Ahnuld. Americans want a fighter, ans someone they can "have a beer with"

[MuseRider]

20. You see Dean

as a fighter? Someone to have a beer with? Sure. Unlikely on either count but two more good reasons to cast your vote for him. I prefer intellegence and integrity, the last lacking in Dr. Dean.

[Zomby Woof]

29. I was contrasting good and bad kinds

Relax. I said Dean has none, so he is safe from unfounded Hitler comparisons, which are out of line anyway.

It was an ILLUSTRATION of how charisma is NOT a reliable indicator of good and humane leadership.

I for one am sick of kowtowing to the Lowest Common Denominator (aka "What Americans Want"). I refuse to bend over for mediocrity with or without the Crisco.

Dean is both mediocrity AND the status quo. Vote for him, that is your right. Unlike you, I would NEVER tell you your vote is wasted. It is NOT. Put that right to use, and leave your erroneous judgments about the rest of us out of it.

[ajacobson]

34. hmmmm.....beer.........

Homer J. Simpson
American

[SahaleArm]

48. Funny you should mention that...

That's exactly how I've felt about Dean. Somebody I wouldn't mind having a beer with but not the next POTUS.

[Kanary]

10. You owe me a personal apology

Telling me I won't survive, and practically gloating over it.

So much for your humanity.

You're a Deanie, right?

You're sure some representative of your candidate, telling me something like that.

Be human, apologize for that ugly, horrible statement, and do some soul searching.

Kanary

[KissMyAsscroft]

17. Stop being so melodramatic.

A good speech wont help you.

An elected representitive will.

If you think Kucinich is electable I have some poll numbers to show you and a Dean bank account to compare with Kucinich's.

Figure it out.

[Kanary]

28. Just apologize for being so hateful

Or your "sincere" apology at the beginning of this thread is meaningless.

[Colin Ex]

35. Things that Clearly Matter in Politics, Part One.

"If you think Kucinich is electable I have some poll numbers to show you and a Dean bank account to compare with Kucinich's."

More money = better leader! Another mystery of the universe solved!

2+2=5

[Kool Kitty]

45. Good point.

If the most money=leadership, then I guess that makes Bush a shoe-in, because NO ONE is going to raise as much as W. Sheesh, what a revolting thought.

[Minstrel Boy]

11. Winning means more than finishing first.

And I don't mean that in a sloppy sentimental way.

It means contributing to the debate, and garnering enough delegates to influence the platform and gain the ear of the eventual leader. And to a candidate who cares about ideas, it means building an ideological base which may someday challenge the party establishment.

Example:

Earlier in the year my party, the NDP, held a leadership contest. The winner had, as you say of Dean, "the charisma, the money and the fight in him", and by the time of the convention he'd developed a commanding lead. He had been my city councillor, I knew him, I was comfortable with him and I was delighted he won. Yet I didn't vote for him. I voted instead for the candidate of a faction within the party which I wanted represented at the policy table. The candidate would have made a disastrous leader in a general election, and in fact there was no chance she would have been chosen to lead the party, but I wanted the ideas she was promoting to be accorded greater respect. So I gave her my first ballot vote. That was all that was needed, but if it had gone to a second ballot I would have then thrown my support to the eventual leader, because my candidate had finished last and was dropped from the race, and it would have been time to make strategic choices. Did I waste my vote? I don't think so.

It's not just about the horse race. Not even now.

[never cry wolf]

15. Exactly the point I was trying to make...n/t

[KissMyAsscroft]

18. Well...that is an entirely different situtation.

This is the Presidency, not the city council.

[never cry wolf]

22. This part of MB's post is VERY pertinent!!

"It means contributing to the debate, and garnering enough delegates to influence the platform and gain the ear of the eventual leader. And to a candidate who cares about ideas, it means building an ideological base which may someday challenge the party establishment."

[Minstrel Boy]

38. the situation

was a contest for the federal leader of my country's second most popular party. The candidate who eventually won had been my city councillor. Apologies if my post wasn't clear enough.

[cally]

12. Could you do me a favor

and save this post on your hard drive and read it in 10 years. You have every right to support and believe in your candidate. You have reasons for it, but all of us do too. I see nothing in your post that is not belief. That is part of supporting a candidate, but please take the time to read this a few years hence when the next candidate comes along.

Dean has many strengths, but many of us see his weaknesses and are terrified where he is leading this party. I don't vote to support the ordained one, I vote to support who I think is best for our country. I certainly don't support a candidate because he is going to win. Sheesh. We do have primaries and voters. I can't count the number of Dems I've voted for who have lost to Repukes. By your logic, I guess I should vote Republican. They usually have more money and they seem to get the movie stars with the really cool tans. (I live in California.)

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MuseRider]

25. Is this another call

for lockstep loyalty? Sounds creepy to me.

[cally]

30. OK

Thanks. I should vote Republican???? What about Dean's strategy to excite the base and get folks out to vote? grassroots effort. We don't need the middle because we will get the base in record numbers.


Yeah, political expert that you are. I'm dumb. Get out my dollars, vote, and effort. Remember if Dean wins the nomination, he will have to pull the rest of the party together. Posts like yours scare me.


I will support the Dem nominee but posts like just don't help.

[Tinoire]

41. You? Vote Republican?!

Oh lol! The day the Republicans have people like you voting for them, I'll run for office on the Republican ticket and be damn proud to do so!

[Devlzown]

13. It's bad enough we have to hear this shit

from Ted Koppel and his ilk. Not one vote has been cast in the primaries yet. Maybe that doesn't mean anything to you, but some of us still believe in the democratic process. You only "throw your vote away" when you vote for a candidate you don't really believe in.

[KissMyAsscroft]

24. Ted Koppel and me have nothing in common.

Ted Koppel was trying to piss the candidates off for ratings.

What the hell does that have to do woth me?

I want the Repubs to face a unified Democratic party with the intent of tossing Bush out on his arrogant ass.

I intend to support the person who will do this.

You guys need to stop whining about your candidate and get behind someone that will help your party.

America is moving towards the right right now because of Dems who piss and moan abd throw temper tantrums voting for Nader and other unelectable people.

[Devlzown]

33. The party will be unified when a nominee is chosen.

Why do you want to skip over the primaries so badly? Do you think Kucinich supporters will be more willing to support Dean now if you call them whiners or accuse them of throwing temper tantrums?

[Tinoire]

42. "Your Party"? Now what Party would that be? More precisely,

what party are you with?



If Democratic, what stripe? Progressive? Liberal? Moderate? Centrist? Conservative?



Pick whichever color you're most comfortable with ;)

[mrgorth]

19. as a Dean supporter

No more unelectable posts. They suck for me and I'm sure they suck for dennis' people. Let them vote in the primary and then hopefully the general. It has to play itself out.

[MuseRider]

23. mrgorth

A big kiss to you! It does have to play itself out and it is about time everyone, including me, realized it.

[KissMyAsscroft]

26. This IS how it is playing out.

It is playing out with your candidate being left in the dust.

[MuseRider]

31. Bullshit.

No votes have been cast. If he loses then fine, it will be because the Democrats did not vote for him. What you say has nothing to offer anyone of us. If you actually wanted to really talk about policy, fine but all you are offering here is baseless bashing of a respected member of congress.

[Kool Kitty]

46. And how do you know that?

It's bad enough that our votes might get screwed up with these friggin' voting machines. Do we at least get to cast one? Why do you have such a problem with that? Why must we all get in line and vote for the candidate you think will be the sure winner?

[frustrated_lefty]

27. I'd like to second that.

Let the people vote.

[JohnKleeb]

32. Thanks yeah they do

We get so many, I agree with him but hes unelectable.

[G_j]

36. agreed mrgorth n/t

[snoochie]

37. Oh for crying out loud

STILL no substance?

Honestly... what do we win with Dr. Dean? A slower stampede off the cliff? No thanks. I'll vote for him if I have to in the GE.

Sounds to me like you're believing your own hype. Calm down and get your feet on the ground. This is the primaries. We are not going to get in line no matter WHO says we should. Not you, not Gore, not anyone. You can piss and moan (and yes, that's what you're doing - project much?) about how this is bad for the party, but I'm willing to bet my last dime that those of us who actually still respect democracy disagree vehemently.

And you DO owe Kanary an apology. She and many other disabled people are being left out in the cold, and yes, CLINTON did this to them as well, so to expect someone like she, who knows all too well how utterly wasted a vote is when it's used to elect another backstabbing, compromising, corporate-whore centrist REALLY is, to throw her vote away by helping to elect someone who will only continue to show how little they really care is beyond foolish. It actually borders on the insane. You are asking her to sacrifice herself, and for what? Further clintonization? More being sold down the river, by the party of 'us too, just not as much'?

Some of us have learned from history and no matter what scare tactics you use, you're not going to scare us into voting against our own interests. You may be convinced that baby steps are going to get you somewhere, but if so I'd like to direct you to the graph Mairead posted. Study it a while and let me know if you think that shows any indication whatsoever that continuing to behave like centrists (and yes, given the current political spectrum in this country, that IS republican lite) is going to get this party anywhere but further down the spiral towards obsolescence.

You go ahead and believe what you want, it's a free country. But remember that... IT'S A FREE COUNTRY.

[Tinoire]

43. I don't think that's really a Dean supporter.

If so... definitely not the DU sort.

[snoochie]

44. Yes you're right

Sorry... I get a bit carried away sometimes. *blush*

Thanks for the calm and reasonable posts. :)

[Pastiche423]

39. The REALITY

of the situation is, we are in a primary. A Democratic primary where we get to hear Democratic voices.

How long have we all been dying to hear Dems speak up and against whistle ass? Psst........ it's been three years yesterday.

Each voice of each candidate, well not each, exactly, but most, is sweet, sweet music. And I, for one, want to hear that music for as long as possible.

Sheesh, after what Koppel did at the debates, I am ashamed to hear another Dem (?) say what you did.

Btw, I am a Dean supporter.

[Tinoire]

40. How pathetically transparent. You must be really afraid.

KUCINICH 2004!

[HEyHEY]

47. I see your points and it's too bad you're right

Because I'd like to see Dennis in there. But the US isn't ready for him, too bad, but it's true. I still will be supporting him though...but I can't vote down there so I can afford to go with my gut.