Bush will win Big in 2004 - There Is No Longer Any Hope For Us

[bobd]

The capture of Saddam will fire up the public into a slathering mass of Bush and Republican worship. The media will go absolutely nuts over Bush and the GOP. The fact that this entire war was based on transparent lies means nothing in the minds of the robotic citizenry. This event will be used by all of the powers that control opinon to relentlessly hammer away at any Dem candidate who dares to question the war. Film of Saddam's capure, his perp walk, his trial, his execution will be the centerpiece of Bush's campagin ads. This one event gives him back his flight-suit film AND his turkey film. The Republicans once again are free to define the concepts of patriotism and family to suit their ambitons, once again unambiguously own the symbols of the flag, the cross, and the star of David, and perhaps most importantly, once again own the hearts and minds of the military. After the next election they will own the entire government with veto proof majorities. The remaining, mildly liberal SCOTUS justices will resign and be replaced by ultra-rright wing extremists. All of this will be greeting with cheering crowds and and a fawning media. Count on it. Bet on it. Bet your house on it. It's that bad. It really, really is.

Depressed and despondent as I am, reading DU actually did give me hope for the future. This event negates all that. What can we do? We are hostage to events over which we have no control. We can only watch in horror as all of what we hope for is dashed against he rocks of conservatism.

So go ahead and holler at me, laugh at me, accuse me of being clueless, reply with zzzzzzzzzzzz, call me a freeper, a GOP mole. Tell me to stop my whining, to get lost. Tell me that it's people like me that are dragging our cause down. Tell me to magically become an optimist. Tell me winning is as simple as making phone calls, participating in voter registration drives, shouting from the street corner. Tell me that if only people knew, if only we can find the right combinaton of magic words we will win. While you're at it get in your time machine and tell the people in 1920-30's Germany the same thing. It really worked there didn't it?

I give up.

[Name removed]

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[cms424]

Has nothing to do with our national security?

Absolutely true. The problem is, Bush will paint this event as having "made our nation a safer place for our children," or something equally ludicrous...and people will believe him. Bet on it.

[loudnclear]

33. In the scheme of things...it probably doesn't really matter unless

you are a member of the working class who will have to pay for and supply the children who will be used as warriors in an endless war of arrogance, greed, and racism.

[Bunny]

2. Aw it's not that bad.

I happen to think that Our Fearless Leader has peaked a little too early. In a few weeks this won't be that big of a deal. Hang in there!

[okieinpain]

11. yes, this event would have been a lot better for bush if it was

close too the election. people will (iraqi and american) want to know when are the troops coming home.

[Catherine Vincent]

78. I thought for sure they would have captured him close to mid 2004.

Unless they are waiting to capture Osama at that time. That will probably be the October surprise.

[ecstatic]

3. even my ex-boyfriend was fooled by this crap

He called me this AM all happy about the news.

Unfortunately, most people will not understand or remember that Saddam was in no way connected to 911. But by next year, the nonchalant public will be worried about the economy and jobs, and they will wonder why troops are still dying in Iraq.

Please keep the faith. Don't spread negativity or fall into negative self-fulfilling prophecies.

[0007]

60. I'd tell your boyfriend to make like Saddam Hussein!

..and get lost.

[Name removed]

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[bobd]

7. Clueless - I forgot about that one.

I'll edit my post and add that to the list.

[deutsey]

5. Hate to be so blunt, but good riddance

I'm just glad large numbers of people in the civil rights, suffragette, and labor movements, and the wars against fascism and imperialism, didn't give up so easily.

[bobd]

17. Why can't you repond thoughtfully to my post?

Why do you feel the need to deride my opinion like that?

[deutsey]

41. How am I "deriding" your opinion?

I'm saying I'm glad that your defeatism hasn't been the overriding feeling among people who have had the odds stacked against them.

The civil rights movement in the '60s was the outcome of over a CENTURY of committment among an oppressed people to battle entrenched societal racism; women in America fought for decades to finally have the right to vote, even though they were arrested, ridiculed, and taught by social and religious custom to be subservient to men; many people were beaten, blacklisted, and even killed for organizing workers to demand for better jobs, better pay, better working conditions. After Pearl Harbor, it really seemed that the Nazis and Japanese Empire were unstoppable in Europe and the Pacific.

Thankfully, enough people rose above their self-pity and defeatist attitudes to rally together to fight even when the odds seemed against them.

If that's derision, than so be it. I see it as aligning myself with those in our history who never gave up.

[bobd]

45. I would never say "good riddence"

to someone who posted something I disagreed with. The points you made are valid and something to consider. You could have made them without the sneer. Why is important to be mean?

[deutsey]

53. Just as you mistakenly see inevitable victory for Bush Inc.

you see a sneer in what I wrote.

There's no sneer there, just me expressing how little we need naysayers and defeatists grumbling about how doomed we are.

I have my moments of doubt as we all do, but based on this post and others you've made, it appears as though your "moments" are not moments at all, but a way of being.

If that's how you are, then I don't see where you're doing any good to the cause most (probablly all) of us here at DU are fighting for.

If I'm misreading how you really are--perhaps you are a fighter and you just come to DU in your sullen moments of despair and want to vent--then I'm sorry. Perhaps you should post here when you are directing your anger outward and channeling it into positive, constructive action as well.

[magnolia]

68. Reading your post....

...I thought you were feeling down and wanted to be picked up. But your complaining about the responses tells me that you are having a pitty party and want everyone to join in on your lament. Sorry...not interested. Fortunately when I heard about it, it was through Dan Rather. He acknowledged that this was a big win for Bush...today. Then went on to say that in politics one day is a month and a month is a year. A lot can still happen.

[CWebster]

6. Please stop this self-defeating line of thought.

As simple as that.

[BertrandL]

8. Give it time

Capturing Saddam doesn't necessarily turn everything around. I for one am glad. He was a nut-case tyrant. Sounds like he'll get a fairish trial -- more rights than, say, people at Gitmo. The world wins with this.

Does it reflect well on Bush? I suppose there's some reflected glory, but not as much as you might think. At large eveil-doers are a boon to the Bush campaign. If we get Bin Laden tomorrow, then the campaign can be about issues instead of fear.

[sexybomber]

72. Good point.

It is good that we rid Iraq of this guy, but we did it in a shoddy, f**ked up way. Next November, people are going to say, "So what, you got who we came for. Why are there still troops in Iraq?"

[qanda]

9. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:boring: :boring: :boring:

[bobd]

14. Good bit of ridicule!

I so love being ridiculed for my opinions. It's what makes this country great!

[qanda]

81. I was not attempting to ridicule you for your opinion

If that is what you took from my post, I apologize. My point was that this sentiment had been expressed numerous times and the news of Saddam's capture wasn't even a few hours old. Again, please forgive me if I managed to offend.

[OneTwentyoNine]

62. Or.........pffffffffttttttttt

Yeah,with the five minute attention span of most Murikans I'm real worried...

David

[Beaker]

10. the elections are in 11months-

not next week.

[Walt Starr]

12. Premature ejaculation

For this to have been effective, it would have had to coincide with the GOP convention.

[ogminlo]

29. Since you mention it...

That, I fear, will be the "capture" of Osama bin Laden. The most plausable September surprise I can think of for next year is the convenient nabbing of bin Laden just in time to kick of the 9/11 GOP convention.

[Walt Starr]

42. That's their final trick

and based upon the fact that they've kept quiet about bin Lade, they have no fuckin clue where the man is.

I have no clue where he may be, but my best guess about two places where he isn't would be Afghanistan and Pakistan. I figure he booked out of tht region more than a year ago.

[RandomKoolzip]

13. No, you're right.

It's time we all committed suicide. There's no hope. Who's with me?!!


:eyes:

[thebigidea]

16. I'm already warming up the oven!

oh woe is uh me bop!

[Bunny]

31. I AM!! You go first!!!

:)

[Killarney]

15. Is anyone here going to vote for Bush now because Saddam is caught?

NO! Of course not!

We still have 30% that are guaranteed to vote Democratic. Yes, the swing votes may be a bit harder now that Saddam is caught but it's not like he found WMD. It's not like his lies have been proved as truths. None of that changes.

Iraq is not the only issue in this election. The economy is an issue. Corruption in the oval office is an issue (Halliburton, Advance PCS, etc).

People like you said Bush Sr would win by a landslide at this time in 1991 because we won the Gulf War and look what happened.

Don't help the republican agenda by saying we have no chance and helping them with the self-fullfilling prophecy.

[Rose Siding]

18. Not many willing to get dragged down with you

It should give you a boost that few see it that way.

One arrest negates all your hope for the future? I hope you can recoup and then contribute something positive to the effort.

[HuckleB]

19. Iraq is still a mess. Afghanistan is still a mess. The economy ain't...

improving at the pace the administration is claiming, and is likely to have some setbacks in the next year (and, no, I'm not happy about that). This will jolt his ratings for a short period, ten months before the election. It's not a big deal. Knowing what Saddam knows about the Bush family and others in the administration, if he speaks out, this could backfire on Bush like nothing else we could imagine.

[incapsulated]

20. "aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh.....!"

*jumps off cliff*

[Exultant Democracy]

21. If you are giving up does that mean you are also leaving DU?

I'm not calling you out or anything, I'm just wondering if you are going to stick around for a fight that you belive has no meaning.

[Maddy McCall]

22. BULLSHIT.

Bush has his own battles to fight at home. IT will be his domestic policy more than his foreign that brings him down. My parents are dyed-in-the-wool Republicans who have begun to vote Democratic in the past two years, and who will vote for ABB in 2004 BECAUSE OF THE FALIURE OF BUSH DOMESTIC POLICIES. The recent Medicare fraud only sealed their decision to vote Democratic.

In case you don't recall, the war is not the greatest problem to the american populace.

Here are some domestic issues about which people are more concerned:

The unequal distribution of wealth in the US
Unemployment remains high, even in the face of this Reagan recovery
Bush attempting to undermine overtime wages
The Medicare bill
The number of uninsured
Living wages are not increasing
Women's issues
Racial issues

And, about the war, the capture of Saddam will not change people's lack of support for the war. The reason they have turned to be nonsupportive of the war is because many are seeing body bags with their loved ones returning stateside.

Almost everyone knows someone who has been killed in this war. The capture of the murderous dictator will not change opposition to the war, except in the most fickle of minds.

[seventhson]

23. Surrender Monkeys for Bush???

I think if Americans are this stupid then we never had a chance anyway.

But I think this kind of post and this kind of attitude is very self-destructive.

This is one moment in time. The "euphoria" will pass. Saddam will be executed shortly and the lies will continue and people will be fed up with Bush more thn ever.

Keep the faith and keep the negativity to posts at freeperland.

I heard one report today that after the capture there was an attack in which 6-10 Iraqi police were killed. The police chief said these attacks wqould continue.

It is STILL a quagmire.

This capture means little to nothing in the big picture: Bush is a known liar and this may end up ultimately being WORSE for Bush if Saddam EVER survives to speak up about Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney.

But Saddam was ALWAYS a Bush puppet -- so he may say whatever they want him to say: blame it on France, for example.

[Orrin_73]

37. I like it when people tell it like it is!!!

kudos to you!! :toast:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/
http://www.clark04.com/
http://www.kucinich.us
http://www.sharpton2004.org/

[seventhson]

57. My father worked with the European Underground against Hitler

with people rolling over because Hitler was "unbeatable" - millions died as a result.

Such talk makes me very angry, Especially with the recent revelations that the Bushes financed Hitler as well as Saddam and Osama.

Makes me just sick.

I forgive those who are too chickenshit to resist fascism. But I despise it when they reinforce the fears of others in order to get them to roll over so they will get brutally raped and murdered by global corporate fascism.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. wrong

the war was still wrong and bush is still a criminal president for lying us into war.

[Lars39]

25. Have you eaten yet today? Low blood sugar/dehydration do weird

things to the human body sometimes. :shrug:

[Deja Q]

26. Not optimism. Not pessimism. Vigilance and a wary attitude...

Bush may win. He may lose. It was like that before the capture.

His popularity was ~50% before this capture, a sign that he'd likely win legitimately in 2004.

He may more likely win now because of this, the public's swallowed everything that's been spoon-fed into their collective mouth.

The candidates must play on this very cagily and remind Americans of the lies and deceit that brought us to this illegal war. Amongst everything else.

[1songbird]

27. There are times when I feel despondent as well

but I don't believe in giving up. We don't know what's going to happen between now and election time. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.

[youngred]

28. you thinkg a Saddam bounce will last 11 months?

6-7 of which will be spent pounding his record on everything botched (Iraq included) by the dem nominee.

This is not death for 2004, this is a good thing!

[TankLV]

30. Your statements reflect my own sentiments exactly.

Heil Bunkerboy! Our Great Fuhrer!

Time will tell - but it's still early, too. Lots can happen before now and the elections.

But right now, it does look pretty grim for justice and peace loving persons - and true "patriots" - as opposed to political or chickenhawk patriots in power now.

I'm glad for the capture - if it's indeed true - but I'm also sad for what this portends for us politically.

A very sad time for the world now.

[Prodemsouth]

32. Something to consider here, this guy's threads were defeatist before

Saddam's capture. He was defeatist when Bush was low... zzzz is right, nothing to consider here. He would be defeatist if Bush lost in November.

[bobd]

38. Yes they were defeatist before

Like I said - I'm a depressive. I'm on medication. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. I suppose my negativity makes me a bad person, someone not quite worthy of posting here. I wasn't aware that being upbeat and denying the reality of Bush the the R's dominance was a requirement for being accepted at DU.

I apologize for all of my failings.

[Prodemsouth]

51. Post all you want, I don't care. You tried to play this game last time I

responded to one of your defeatist threads: false implicaton of my post saying you had no right to post here. I am just pointing out to others to consider the source, so they will not become like you. Remember folks, misery loves company.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Even If * Wins It's Not The End Of The Republic.....

I can't give him that much credit....

The pendelum will swing back.....

It always does....

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. I hate these fall on our sword threads

Remember back to Gulf I and how the elder Bush was flying high.

Politics is a fickle world and such things change over night.

[leesa]

36. All it does it point out the total waste of human beings and the trashing

of alliances to get one solitary disarmed man who had complied completely with the UN resolution we used as an excuse to steal his oil.

What fools Neocons are! We murdered tens of thousands, nearly 500 of our own to capture ONE defanged dictator!!!! What a huge waste.

[davsand]

39. This is too early to do shrub any good next November.

People will have WAAAAY too much time to get over the "euphoria" and realize they still have a terrible domestic situation plus kids still coming home in body bags. Frankly, all I see this doing is giving a bump in the polls for a bit--then it will open the door to shrub marching into Syria when Saddam "confesses" the WMD were sent there.

I'm not mixing up the kool aid yet.

Laura

[Scott Lee]

44. EXACTLY

That's what I said on another thead. You almost couldn't have prayed for better timing. Now you just better hope that Ossama doesn't mysteriously get "captured" on or about October of next year.

[1songbird]

You know you make a brilliant yet scary point

It was just Friday I think when Bush signed the Syrian Accountability Act. Now with Saddam, a Bush operative, captured what information is he going to give. I don't believe in ccoincidences. You may be right. This could be the door to a new war.

[Cooley Hurd]

40. Fact: Saddam had little to do with the insurgency...

They caught him in a hole that had no effective means of communication - certainly nothing to the degree of being able to direct the insurgents in real time. The attacks will continue, probably with more ferocity, and any bump in the polls will be neutralized by increasing casualty counts.

Oh, and where's the REAL threat to our security - Osama? Still at large. This is at best a minor victory for Bush...

[snippy]

43. This may be the most pathetic thing ever posted on the entire internet.

The Iraqi people are going to want their country back now. Bush won't like that. Most Americans will side with the Iraqi people. Democrats should make Bush defend retaining control of Iraq.

Most Americans probably thought that Saddam would be killed or captured sooner or later. Rather than think that the capture of Saddam solves everything, they will be asking what happens now. Bush won't have an answer to that question until Turd Blossom Rove runs it through the focus groups.

Democrats should seize this opportunity to argue for turning the reconstruction of Iraq over to the UN. They need to emphasize the number of countries which have offered lots of troops and lots of money if the UN is in charge of the reconstruction. Democrats should stress that this is a wonderful opportunity to save American lives and money. There is no reason that the rebuilding has to be done by Americans. Make Bush defend the continued occupation and exploitation of Iraq and the costs to America in lives and money.

First it was about WMD.

Then it was about removing the evil dictator.

What will it be about now? Bush will look bad answering this question.

[Cooley Hurd]

71. Excellent point, Snippy!

Now that there's no chance of Saddam getting back into power, they'll want their country back even sooner (and the coalition lost their best excuse for continuing the occupation - to assure that Saddam wouldn't regain power). But Saddam's capture doesn't automatically make the situation in Iraq stable. The power vaccuum still exists (since even the US doesn't fully support the governing council), and the different factions are still miles from agreeing on how to govern themselves.

This is a minor victory for Bush, but it creates a more difficult situation for the coalition...

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John_H]

47. Just do a search on this poster.

Always the first to say we're doomed. Always. Is this, like, your job? If so they need to get someone who makes better arguments.

[bobd]

50. Again I apologize

for all of my failings. I know I'm a bad person. I know that negativity is simply a choice that one makes. I know that all it takes to break depression is someone saying "snap out of it".

You make my negativity sound like some grand conspiracy. You make your seach on my postings sound like a real coup - a great find.

[marigold20]

48. No!

I really did agree with you at first, when I found out this morning. But thinking it over, the men and women of the Armed Forces are still there, and will be there for a long time. The Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds won't suddenly engage in a love fest. The economy in our area is still down from the Clinton years.

I do worry about the timing of a trial - Karl's probably looking at October.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Nope.

The invasion of Iraq was still illegal and Saddam was not an imminent threat. NOTHING can ever change those facts. This will do very little to help the shrub...in the LONGTERM. JMCPO

[Kazak]

52. Did this event change your vote???

...didn't change mine.

[farmbo]

54. Chill out, Man...Eleven months is an eternity in politics!

This changes the landscape for now, but events which transpire between now and November will determine the election's outcome.

[Camaro]

55. Bush will not win!

As a member of the Green Party I know how you feel. The Green Party has not realy had a legitimate chance of winning but that will soon change. Maybe not this year but soon.

In the mean time this will die down and the people will make the right choice and oust Bush. Bush has sent hundreds of americans to their death and the public will not forget about this.

[mdmc]

70. welcome to DU bitchin Camaro!

Where Greens are cherished, not chastized! :dem:

[Wapsie B]

56. In the words of Senator Tom Harkin,

Bullshit!

How does this help someone struggling to pay their bills, or someone who's just been "rightsized" out of a job just before Christmas?

No way in hell. The Dem message should be: "We got Saddam, now let's bring the boys home." Any further bloodshed of American soldiers will tarnish chimpy's little victory very quickly.

[scarface2004]

58. wait til saddam tells....

what he knows about rumsfeld! he won't live to the trial!!

[mdmc]

59. Quick Gandhi quote ought to fix you right up

"When I get depressed I remind myself that all dictators eventually fall from power and perish. Think about it. Always"
Now get out there and GOTV! :dem:

[mdmc]

65. Also get a px for zanax

I think that it is the best. Plus, we still have Osama to capture (if I were Rove, Super Tuesday would be the release date for that capture). I actually think that they had this release set for March, but Halliburton had to push it up due to its markups.

[ACK]

61. Look its a pansycrat thread

I guess we should all get Daschle to let us borrow the pink tutus.

Its hopeless and we should all move to Canada or Mexico or some other frickin' place. Why?

Because despite every poll says the nation is divided we continue to fall on our swords, capitulate and generally bend over and spread it wide for every Repuke attack.

We are the "f*ck me please give me another pansycrats".

It is this sort of nonsense self-loathing horseshit along with a Repub-lite plan that in 2002 led us to such horrible defeat.

I am so tired of this. With re-districting and control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency the Republican Revolution came.

With a nation divided in two, we can't keep control of the governorship of a state that is pre-dominantly Democratic. Why?

Because we are self-absorbed wimps more intent on stabbing each other in the damn back than getting the job done.

Clinton took the backstabs plenty of times and came up smiling in the end.

But I am tired of this defeatist nonsense.

BTW, it was the same thing with 1920-30's Germany. The opposition was more intent on ripping each other apart to oppose Hitler's rise. They sat around debating and whining like sorry little bitches till it was too late to stop the madman.

It sounds like that is exactly what some people here want to do.

[Lindsey]

74. Hey bobd

I know in many ways how you feel. I think that some of what you say is basically true because so many Americans are totally clueless (We invaded due to weapons of mass destruction that haven't been found, we invaded because of 9/11, etc.). My loss of faith is in the Media and in the dumbed down masses. That's what makes me worry. Once again, we need to do everything posssible with our own ability to make change. I have committed to volunteer for moveone.org next year. I also contacted George Soros' office because he's willing to put up some big bucks that we must have. We desperately need more media outlets because that's how people get there information. The quote that I have on a bumper sticker that's on my fridge that I read everyday is this: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world."Margaret Mead. I totally know how you're feeling now but give it a little time and think about what we DO have that might make us victoriuos (and what little part you can do to help). Try to "be a hero of your own life" (I think that was from the movie "Cider House Rules"). In the meantime, pleae do yourself a BIG favor and DON'T watch any of the T.V/media bullshit. I have T.V. Land on now and will until all this propaganda dies down. I'll think good thoughts for you and hope that a spark of hope finds it's way into your heart. Take care my friend.

[Bob3]

63. Just a few calm points.

1. This just happened - any comment on how this will play out 11 months from now is extremely premature and no better than a guess. All the talking heads saying this nails it for * could be right but judging by their track record that's not the way to bet.

2. Does the capture of Saddam mean that the Sunnis, the Shiites and the Kurds will now live in peace and harmony? Anybody think so please raise their hands. If anything this may cause more trouble since the Shiites, their long time opressor gone, will start demanding power and taking revenge. And will this have an effect on attacks on our troops? I don't know. This might make it worse and what would that do to *'s standing after taking yet another victory lap?

3. As far as exploting this, well *'s main talent as president has been the ability to shit in his own nest - to have the mediocre re-elect numbers he has considering the real grownswell of support he got after 9-11 and the invasion of Iraq with a fawning lap dog press cheering his every move argues a very very vunerable canidate and someone who isn't very good at running for office. Face it, even a moderately competent cannidate given the kind of advantages * has been handed would be planning the reception at the inguration not crossing the country like a bunny on crack raising money.

4. Ossam Ben Ladden is still out there, Al-Queda is still out there.

5. The ecconmoy is still (cheerleading aside) flopping around like a fish on a river bank. Nobody's hiring and that does not look to change. The quarter growth spurt is slowing down. My company (a big financial one in New York) is talking about layoffs after January 1st. So much for the roaring stock market yes? And there is the unclear effect of the recent drop in the dollar, inflation? Higher intrest rates?

6. Finally, people are not quite as dumb as you and we and sometimes I think. That old you can fool some of the people all of the time ect. saying comes to mind here. Granted most people will not start thinking until they have tried every other methood to solve a problem but it does happen. * offers us nothing but fear and a vague hope we can hang on through the next round of job cuts. What the democratic party standard bearer has to point out is that's not good enough, not for this place, not for this country, we need a dream, we need to be building not hiding.

Keep the faith. Read the Crisis by Tom Paine. Remember we are all in this together.

[Malva Zebrina]

64. many people are now saying that it is wonderful that Saddam

was captured and that without him the Iraqi people now have a chance to be free, or words to that effect. Saddam, they say, is an evil tyrant and should be executed, they say. Who is they? Bush? Uh uh. Unfortunately, many of them are Democrats. I find that position logicaly inconsistent. I will never, ever say that Bush did a good thing when he attacked Iraq--this end did not justify his means--and if I cannot say that Bush did a good thing, I cannot say that the capture of Saddam is a good thing for the people either. It is neither here nor there. This event is going to be another stage production and it turns my stomach to see this type of hype and propaganda used against the unthinking American people. I see Saddam as the necessary manufactured satan that is necessary for Bush to enforce his own tyranny--if Saddam was never captured, the invasions and attack would remain a terrorism perpetrated upon the people of Iraq by George Bush--he lied, remember. Anybody?

Bush will be on at noon--bloviating and strutting about. I wonder what costume he will wear--do you think it could be a black robe like the justices wear?

[onecitizen]

66. Dude, you should consider........

some serious mood elevators.

[G_j]

67. if you 'give up'

please consider 'giving up' posting calls to hopelessness. What's the point may I ask?

[Tansy_Gold]

69. Remember the whole "wag the dog" scenario?

Let me put it to all of you this way, and tell me if I'm wrong.

And please, forgive me for writing the way I think. I know I'm hard to follow sometimes. But at least I'm not defeatist! :-)

If the invasion of Iraq was just a wag-the-dog trick to distract all the rest of us (excepting, of course, those who are on DU and aren't fooled by sleight of propaganda) from the REAL problems facing this administration, doesn't the capture of Saddam Hussein remove the distraction and force a renewed focus on the real problems?

Yes, certain the * folks can spin this wildly, but capturing Saddam was NEVER what this was about. On the surface, it was about 9/11 and Saddam's non-existent ties to the terrorists. Under the surface, it was about the oil. In the heart of the propaganda, it was about freeing the people of Iraq (who were really more the prisoners of the UN's US-sponsored sanctions than of Saddam Hussein).

The biggest "if" in this scenario is "if" the attacks on U.S. troops stop. If they do, and if the Iraqis acquiesce in the face of U.S. occupation, then maybe at least some bets are off. But if the attacks continue, regardless of the motivation, the capture of Saddam is a very hollow victory. None of the other objectives have been achieved, and the one that has is meaningless. It was always meant to be symbolic anyway.

But the whole idea of the distraction of the invasion was to take the attention away from the failing economy, the corporate scandals, the gridlock in congress. Is the capture of Saddam Hussein just another distraction? We don't have to let it be.

As I wrote in response to another post on this topic, I had got up early to watch James Carville on C-Span. His talk was taped Wednesday, so there was no influence from today's events. The program had just started when a friend called to tell me the news about the capture of Saddam. Depressed, she said, "It's all over. He's won. There's nothing we can do now. I give up." Or words to that effect.

But that means we are living in a country where we CONCEDE before the election is even held! That means we give up without even fighting! That means nothing else matters, not the issues raised in another post here -- health care, the economy, taxes, the growing inequality in resource distribution, education, housing, prescription drugs, etc., etc., etc. The * junta has scored a victory, okay, let's give them that. But they have not won the frickin' war!

I'm reminded of the days when my son was on a local swim team. He wasn't the fastest swimmer, but he had endurance. Our problem with him was that when he finished the first leg, everyone was touching and turning before he did, and he'd give up. They were ahead, and he thought he didn't have a chance. But when they were just doing laps for training, he was always one of the first to finish, when many of the other kids couldn't even make it through the 25 or 50 laps required.

If any of our candidates had given up at the beginning, at the first sign of low polls numbers or other obstacles, we wouldn't have ANY of them in the race. Dean was an unknown for a long time. Kucinich still isn't polling all that great. Sharpton and Moseley-Braun haven't raised big bucks. Gephardt lost the big labor endorsements. Lieberman got jilted by Gore. And so on. How many of them threw in the towel?

Maybe I'll eat these words before the day is over. Maybe all the Dems will withdraw from all the races around the country, * will be crowned Emperor of America in the National Cathedral and we'll all be forced into fundamentalist baptism by immersion from which some of us dissenters will not rise. Maybe Jeb will be proclaimed Prince of Whales (I've heard he's putting on a bit of weight) and elections will be cancelled.

But so far, I don't think that's what's happening. I think there are a zillion issues yet to be addressed, and now that Saddam's out of the way, maybe the Dems need to hold the * tootsies to the flames a bit on some of those other issues.

For all the whining about how spineless the Dem leaders have been, I'd have thought the DUers would show a lot more vertebrae that this rolling over and playing dead. The last time I checked, *I* still have a backbone, and it still works.

Fightin' back,

Tansy Gold

[Snellius]

73. If you give up, why aren't you giving up?

If you give up, why are you posting this complaint? Those who quit quit. Despite cable news, politics is not a football game. Everything in truth does not revolve around how many points are scored for the Bush team. This is a great day for Iraq, but not necessarily a great day for America or for Bush. The immediacy of this hour's triumph gives way back to tomorrow's uncertainty and fear. What next? The price paid in lives, money, and friendship is staggering. Does anyone believe, if Iraq becomes a model independent democracy next week, we'll be gone by next month? Now that the world no longer has to fear Saddam, now the world has to face bin Laden and Bush.

[Catherine Vincent]

75. I have to agree with you but I'm not giving up.

Just because Rummy's buddy Saddam is captured, that doesn't bring the dead US soldiers back including the ones that will be killed thereafter. We still should not have invaded Iraq. I will always remember that, no matter how the republicans and their media try and persuade me otherwise.

[mikehiggins]

76. Innocuous, harmless heading: don't give up

Smile.

Relax.

Consider this: there is no way to predict how this will play out over the next few months. Even at this moment, when exhultation and joy should be reigning at the White House, someone, somewhere, maybe down in one of those basement offices, is saying "WTF? Who told them to take him alive?"

From this point on, friend, Hussein is the albatross around the Bush administration's neck.

Is terrorism going to abate? Not likely. There was already an attempt on the life of the Pakistani leader, and not a suicide bomb but an assassination try. Another bomb went off in Iraq, hurting an unknown number of Iraqi's. If more and more Iraqi's end up dead from terrorist attacks, what good will it do to tell them we caught Hussein?

And what does Hussein know, and how willing is he to spill the beans? Or even, heaven forfend, out-right lie about the US's role in the Kuwaiti invasion OR Halliburton's dealings with Iraq post-1991? The British? The French, German and Russian dealings? What a can of worms.

Supposedly Kay and the WMD gang are already preparing to meet with Hussein on that issue. What if he insists there were none? What would he have to lose? He's already deposed; he's already in custody. What can they offer him to get him to play along? His life? His life, as he lived it, is over no matter what. Why not play Ahab and stab at his enemies even as they drag him under?

What if Hussein tells his questioners that he had everyone who ever met with Valerie Plame put to death?

Oh, the potential for mischief is astounding, and we still have to contend with al Quida. The Bush administration is already downplaying bin Laden's role in that organization so catching him won't do too much for world safety.

And what of the US scene? The Republican controlled Congress went home without extending the unemployment benefits for hundreds of thousands of unemployed Americans AT CHRISTMAS, for pete's sake.

There is continuing uncertainty about the srength of the dollar and the chance our allies might cash huge amounts in, driving the value of the dollar down even further.

And some key Bush insiders might be outed during the coming year.

Oh, there's many a mile to be travelled before its time to start looking for someplace else to live, friend.

We may end up looking back on this as the best news of the year.

[izzie]

77. Well you could be right but I will wait to Nov 5th to be sure.

Once the Right-Wing get over their blood thing we can get back to normal. We may ever get Bush un-wrapped from his American flag. If the country does go for Bush what can you do, it will be what the largest % want.I sure will not laugh at you as there are a lot of Americans that love the wars we are in and like rule by force. This may turn out to be a country we do not like and can do not one thing about it.The very sad part is the people who like this style will also pay with their freedom.

[greekspeak]

79. A Bit of Defence for BobD

I can't beleive how people on here are ganging up on Bobd. Not everyone can have pie-in-the-sky optimism in a political climate that is equal to getting repeatedly kicked while down. You all need to have some compassion for Bobd...if Bobd is on medication for depression and you all are bashing this poster while knowing that, you should be ashamed. Its something the neo-cons would do.

I remember Bush I and how people could not get enough of him for a while, and I also remember the plunging end to his presidency. The election is still too early to call, but with some of the stranger-than-fiction things that have happened, I am sure that even you dyed in the wool optimists sometimes wonder where things are going and how bad it is going to be on the way.

[HFishbine]

80. One Reason You Should Be Very Proud

http://www.indystar.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49501