A Bush "win" will be disasterous. Please stop savaging our candidates.

[JanMichael]

Competition is fine. Candidate hatred is a completely different animal. Hell I don't even dislike Lieberman as much as some of our DU partisans have shown distain for their candidate's percieved political challengers.

The media, Rove, and a quarter of a billion dollars, will attack whomever is our candidate (and us) unlike anything you've ever seen.

If Bush gets more votes in either the popular election or the electoral college the resulting trasformation of this country into a Corpo Police State will be mind blowing and fast.

More wars will happen. I can't imagine them not doing something to either Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Syria, Iran, or hell, maybe even the EU (Economically silly). Of course this "War Situation" will require the snuffing out of dissent here at home, they can't have any enemies inside the gates now, can they? Nope. Vocal, active, dissent is too dangerous for the liars so they'll be met with an ever more aggressive "Miami Model" of suppresion. Don't wear shorts to protest, if protests are still allowed.

Social Security will cease to exist as part of our Social Contract. It will be Privatised, period. Same with Medicare and Medicade. HUD? Gone would be my guess.

Worse yet I can imagine things we take for granted like municipal water will dissapear too. Welcome your Halliburtan Police Force? Maybe your Brown & Root Fire Department? Too far fetched? Why?

Taxes will continue to be shifted down to those least able to pay them and still maintain a decent standard of living. That old Progressive Value of not taxing essential food purchases will likely get the boot too. You know, those poor people have big families and they eat a lot of crap, that's a prime regressive revenue source.

Unions will come under Legislative attack, all workers will, health and safety in the workplace will deteriorate. So will wages and all benefits. The Walmartization of most of the population should be interesting to watch...from a gated community. Heck I bet the Anti-Trust Laws will even get gutted. Imagine a Milk Trust, with 90% market share, owned by the BFEE? Wouldn't surprise me one bit. Healthcare? Sorry, the best Healthcare is not getting sick, here have a smoke.

Hmm. Reminds me of that book "Jennifer Government". Perhaps we'll all assume the name of our corporate masters as our surname? If I worked for Walmart I could be Jan Michael Walmart! How cool would that be?

Seriously folks, the gig will be up.

Please?

[Cleita]

1. I couldn't agree more JanMichael.

Democrats have to keep their focus on ridding our government of the BFEE and any influence they have in Congress and our state governments. None of the candidates deserve the hatred their own are heaping on them.

If we don't, we can look forward to another four years of Bush. That's no lie.

[JanMichael]

3. It won't be just four more years.

It may be generational.

[cthrumatrix]

38. I agee.......throwing away my for Clark and down with Dean memo

nothing more than an ambush...rove could not have done any better.

To bash any candidate over SH capture is unwarranted and smells of desparation.

[OneTwentyoNine]

2. Damn right,I'll bump this to the top........ n/t

[camero]

4. We should get started right now by doing the following:

1. Help your local Dem org. with get out the vote drives.

2. Encourage people to vote Absentee. No Diebold shit on an absentee ballot. (I know, they can be messed up too. But it's a paper trail.)

[blondeatlast]

13. No. 2 is crucial--CRUCIAL.

Thanks for the reminder. Vote early, Dems (but NOT often ;)).

[camero]

19. Ah, we all need reminding now and then.

:)

[bearfartinthewoods]

36. it's a shame no one got this message

through to dean when he began attacking the other dem candidates.

[Tansy_Gold]

5. I'm with you, JanMichael

By the way, a community near where I live in Arizona is already reaping the horrors of privatized fire protection.

Here's a link to just one story from this past September:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special21/articles/0915County15.html

<snip>
Simmering political tensions in the West Valley heightened in November when Goodyear and Avondale canceled mutual-aid pacts with Rural/Metro, complaining that the cities were "subsidizing" the Scottsdale-based company by assisting on calls without being repaid.

The cities said their fire services are already stretched thin and need to focus on residents, not county islands.

Rural/Metro was taken aback by the decision, particularly since the company called Goodyear for assistance just eight times in the previous 11 months, spokeswoman Ruthanne Gilbert said.

The feud hit a fever pitch Aug. 4, when 2-year-old Taylor Carnes tumbled into a swimming pool in Sarival Gardens, a county island on the western side of Goodyear. Without a unit nearby, Rural/Metro asked Goodyear to respond, but Goodyear refused. Avondale also refused.

<end snip>

Six years ago, we had a similar situation in my own community when financial considerations left some homeowners sitting literally a quarter mile OR LESS from a fire station but being denied service, because one tax-supported fire service entity refused to share resources with another.

[JanMichael]

7. I don't want to live in that world.

It's been creeping up on us for twenty years but I fear 2004 could create an avalanche.

I believe in collective enterprises, public resources, impartial entities.

Fire Department are critical to the health of a community, I can't believe that people want to trade that away.

Most Government is not a profit driven enterprise. It's an impartial service provider. Corporate Police? That's a damned nightmare...And we're probably halfway there already.

[blondeatlast]

14. Don't I know it--my mom was really impressed with Rural/Metro

(she's a longtime central Scottsdale resident). When the issue of keeping R/M came up, she was sure she would vote for keeping it. But while we were at lunch one day, I (City of Phoenix employee) told her about the evils of privatization. As luck would have it, some Scottsdale firefighters sat down nearby and she asked them how they would vote. She volunteered to help the union defeat the measure that afternoon.

It passed anyway, as I'm sure you are aware.

My sympathies are with you, TG. I'm proud to support my brethren in the Phoenix Fire Dept.

[Lastgasp]

6. Even Lieberman is better than the Chimp . . .

I will work for, and vote for any Democrat who wins the nomination. That's a guarantee!

[JanMichael]

8. Very true.

I see it this way. Bush is pure political evil and a 2004 loss will be catastrophic.

If the Dems can regain some type of control then I can transition to Progressivizing them:-)

[Cheswick2.0]

37. Your help Liberalizing the democratic party would be most welcome

!

[blondeatlast]

16. Any Dem will do.

[hlthe2b]

9. Yup... Many of us keep sending that message....

but I find that there is never a shortage of people who won't (yet) listen....


Keep hammering the point, home folks!

[JanMichael]

10. I know. What blows my mind is that I, a freakin' Socialist, have....

...to keep pointing this crap out! Hell a Bush "win" would probably be the best thing to happen for the Far Left since, um, the Wobblies!? Sure it'd get ugly BUT it'd also wake people the hell up.

That said I simply don't want to see that happen and I can't stand the internecine fighting going on here.

:shrug:

[Tansy_Gold]

12. Yeah, it would be ugly.

Like the French Revolution was ugly. ick.

Three years ago, as the 2000 campaign was winding down, one of my profs said he thought Gore would win (he was correct) but that it might actually be better if * did, because he would fuck things up so bad (he was correct there, too) the GOP would never recover.

But I think it could get much worse before it gets better, and I'm not sure I want to live through the worse. Seems to me there's got to be a better way than guillotines, firing squads, etc.

My concern right now is with the stock market. I see another bubble building, worse than the last one, and when the mutual funds collapse this time, it will wipe out a good portion of what's left of the middle class, especially in the boomer generation, which happens to be mine. I think the Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, and other big collapses sucked a lot of cash out of the middle class, but not enough for the aristos. They are trying to get their hands on the big government pension funds and the mutuals. I think so, anyway. I am NOT any kind of investment analyst.

But when the public services -- fire, police, schools, water, sewage, transport, etc. -- are privatized and there is no money in the hands of the middle class to pay for them, we are fucked but good. There is nowhere left to go then but to the barricades.

Yuck.

Trying not to make myself too depressed after a day of actually being forceful and positive,

Tansy Gold

[Norbert]

11. Best Thread on the GD board today, JanMichael

This is all about "Anybody but bu$h". We cannot afford to get fragmented at an important time like this.

There are threats right now on:

-The Alaskan wilderness
-The US Constitution
-Wildlife
-Temperate forests
-Wetlands
-Jobs
-Our standard of living
-Our privacy
-Our two party system
-Clean Air

to name a few

The very worst Democratic candidate would be infinitely better than the squatter we have in there now.

P L E A S E people. It's big picture time.

[blondeatlast]

20. A few more:

-Freedom of Expression
-Health care
-trampling of worker's rights
-true representation
-the SUPREME COURT (a biggie, but easily overlooked)
-Stem-Cell research
-Medicare
-Civil Rights

We must stop the train to Hell we are on and we must put the brakes on NOW to do it.

My candidate is an Ass, it doesn't matter which Ass.

[Tansy_Gold]

32. I LOVE IT!!!!!

"My candidate is an Ass. It doesn't matter which Ass."

Gave me the best chuckle I've had all day!!!!

[PurityOfEssence]

15. There's nothing we can say that they don't know about and won't hit harder

Therefore, there's no reason not to go at it hammer and tongs and see who can and will survive. That's the premise on which primaries evolved.

I guarantee you, there's nothing we can find out and use on each other that Rove doesn't already know or won't find out. This is like rehearsal before the openings out of town. You don't want a candidate who can't take it or has vulnerabilities that aren't readily apparent.

Yes, I'd prefer not to keep everything in the gutter, but there's going to be an element to that, and to deny it is political suicide.

If you keep your eyes peeled--not to say that you haven't--you'll see lots of positive and constructive bits of information and orderly discourse around here, and you'll see lots in the public campaigning. Ugliness just gets better press, and that's because it's more compelling.

We should all be mindful of our manners, but the argument that we imperil ourself by bringing this up is absolutely incorrect; we need this kind of interplay to determine the issues. This is important. Politics is a bloodsport, and although I don't claim that as a justification for deplorable behavior, it's an element in the process.

[JanMichael]

17. Height (Heard on DU) shouldn't be a part of any GD conversation.

Ever.

Mostly I agree with you but personal shit like that is supremely juvenile.


EDIT: PurityOfEssence did NOT say that! It's an example of what a Clarkie said about Dean.

[PurityOfEssence]

21. Please explain that; I didn't mention anything about that

Are you responding to someone else? Please review this and make a correction in a subject line of a new response; this was sincere discourse and you're doing a great disservice here.

If you're going to slam me for juvenility and make the subject line look like I took an ugly cheap shot, you owe it to all readers to make amends.

Harumph.

[JanMichael]

24. It's an example of what I read here on DU. There's no implication that...

...you said it.

"If you're going to slam me for juvenility and make the subject line look like I took an ugly cheap shot, you owe it to all readers to make amends."

I didn't. If someone was reading this thread it ought to be bloody obvious that I wasn't refering to your post!

Harumph.

[PurityOfEssence]

27. Let's put this to bed

Of course it seems like you're addressing me, you posted a response to my post, and it said (pre-editing) that "Height should never be an issue on the board". You then go on to say:

"Ever.

Mostly I agree with you but personal shit like that is supremely juvenile."

That REALLY leads one to believe that I've done it, and if you're "mostly agreeing with me" but that "personal shit like that is supremely juvenile", it really smells like a rebuke.

Regardless, a casual reader who's just looking at the subject lines would convict me on the spot of a really nasty childish attack. That's an issue.

Suck as I may in many ways, I try to keep the level of discussion focused and on the issues, and I try to concede points when valid. We've got enough trouble on the board right now, so we all need to be very careful with our posts. If this sounds like a lecture, it's because it is. If you'd at least copped to having been INCREDIBLY misleading, instead of huffing outrage and claiming that competent readers would never think you were talking of me, I'd have gone easier. As it is, you reared up and denied everything. That's Deanesque. It wasn't the least bit "bloody obvious"; hell, it didn't even have a pus-like sheen of obscurity to it. I'll presume compositional sloppiness, but I'm not going to let you skate more than that.

Now, enough of this, so let's go about our business and continue making our individual mistakes.

"I didn't get a harumph from that man!"

[JanMichael]

29. You saw my edits. Yet you didn't "Drop it". You kept it going.

Keep the lectures to yourself.

Better yet you even slammed Dean in your rather pious reply, how civil of you.:-)

BTW: I'm not a Deanie (why bother slamming him when he hadn't been mentioned? Criminy.) or a Clarkie or any other weirded out, hyper aggressive, cultish supporter.

PSS~ You're on ignore now so save your breath.

[prolesunited]

18. Heretic!!!

Stop making sense. That's not allowed today in GD. :hi:

[Cleita]

23. Yes, I believe you've got it right.

I personally like the doctor because our health care system is self-destructing in this country because of corporate malfaesance. The people who need health care aren't getting it. We spend more money per capita than any country in the world for health care, so this money is not going for health care but profits. I know he will work on this problem and do his best to turn things around. Even if he can't do evertthing, I know he will fight to end to change this problem.

[Triana]

22. I wish our candidates would QUIT savaging each other...

...and spend all that time and energy savaging GWB and his cabal instead! After all, the OBJECTIVE is to get Bu$h out of the White House in 2005, isn't it?

I hate to say it, but Dem candidates who are Presidential material will put the interest of this country over their own personal self-interest in winning. If they cannot do that, why are the running for office?

They need to expend every iota of time, energy, and effort sabatoging BUSH, not each other for chrissakes!

[JanMichael]

28. I hate to say it but my intention was to point out the horrors...

...of a second Bush "administration".

The candidate crap was just a knee jerk reaction to some of the rather insideous anti-"Insert Candidate Here" threads of late.

My focus was to describe the Amerika that would result in a Bush "win".

[dpibel]

31. Second that

Somehow, it seems to me far more sensible to have a primary based on the premise that the candidates should try to out-Democrat one another.

Calling one another various forms of the spawn of Beelzebub does nothing but help Karl Rove load his howitzers. I don't particularly care if that's tradition, either. If tradition is the best excuse a person can come up with, they must not have a very convincing point. (Just to avoid any confusion, this mini-rant on tradition is not pointed at the poster under whom this is threaded--it's aimed at folk who say, "Hey! Name-calling is the fun part of primaries. That's how we always do it.)

[rbnyc]

25. kick

:kick:

Keepin' the good stuff on top.

[UTUSN]

26. Wit-choo n/t

[Octafish]

30. This Cockroach Loathes Bush.

That's why I'm for John Kerry. He'll pop the BFEE in jail ASAFP.

Regarding sliming the DEMs. Yeh, that's part of primary politics. My horse has been tarred and feathered here for almost two years now. I don't remember any of the current worry warts standing up to help him then or now.

[w4rma]

33. tit for tat (n/t)

[Norbert]

34. kick

[Cheswick2.0]

35. you are right

thank you.