Bracing For the Gloat-Fest

[Plaid Adder]

I put up my response to the Big News From Tikrit here:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/plaidder

Basically, it reads kind of like the editorial statement on the DU front page only with more bitterness and despair.

I'll admit it: I never thought they'd get the bastard. I still wonder how they did it. They can all go home and celebrate tonight. I'm sure Rove is doing something appropriately sick and twisted right now in honor of what is sure ot become the Mother Of All Photo-Ops.

Not looking forward to watching America react, I'll tell you that. This is going to bring out whole new shades of ugly in the national complexion.

On the bright side, I bet there are a lot of Iraqis who are genuinely relieved, and glad he's gone. On the other side, the capture of their tyrant may well mean another four years of OUR tyrant.

Sigh,

The Plaid Adder

[Woodstock]

1. I'm just going to say the military did a good job

finding him. I'm proud of our soldiers.

Then I'll say, We spent a lot of money (that taxpayers will be paying back for many, many years to come) and a lot of lives were lost - and many more have horrible wounds - in the process of deposing Sadaam. It's too bad we didn't work with the UN to accomplish this instead. After all, there were no WMD and there was no imminent threat. And of course, now we've damaged relations with other countries and have established a dangerous precidence of preemptive invasions.

Also I'll say, It's too bad, because doing it this way, we increased the risk of terrorism to Americans instead of reducing it. The Taliban is reforming in Pakistan, Al Qaeda still going strong, Afghanistan is back to nearly as bad a shape as it was before we went in, the 9/11 investigation is being blocked by the White House, our military is so tied up in Iraq they aren't available for other duties, and there is insufficient funding for protecting our ports and vulnerable facilities.

Then I'll say, Did you hear about Dick Cheney's Halliburton overcharging the taxpayers on their noncompetative contract in Iraq? And how about James Baker being the one to get involved in the Iraq financial situation, when he is poised to benefit financially. It's really interesting how Bush's associates are making an awful lot of money from the war in Iraq. Did you read about how the Wall Street Journal says our taxes will have to be raised because of all of the Bush Administration's spending?...

[BiggJawn]

12. Halliburton? Oh that is just *SO* "last week"!

We got Saddam! that's all that matters! Who CARES that our grandkiddies will be paying for this mess? Doesn't Dubb look so MANLY with that rolled towel stuffed down his pants?
<sarcasm>

[sleipnir]

2. I'm celebrating too!

I'm happy that a murderous tyrannt was finally brought to justice. I'm sorry, but yes, I'm celebrating in my own way tonight that maybe the people of Iraq will sleep better knowing that their worst nightmare for 20 years is behind bars.

That said, I look forward to a future of Iraq free from colonial rule where those citizens are able to decide their own elected officals and make their own policies.

Yes, despite the inherant political ramifications of the caputre, today is a good day, one that the world should celebrate. Much like we will celebrate one year from now, January 10th, 2005.

The world today has won a single fight against evil, a despot will face his crimes, perhaps more will follow. Mugabe, bin Laden, Pinochet, and all their ilk poison the world with the days that go by without justice visiting them.

[aquart]

7. Why would they sleep better?

You think they don't know what's coming?

Saddam killed two million? Let's see how many more are dead by the time this sorts itself out.

Iraq has three populations that hate each other. First they get the Americans. Then they get each other.

[sleipnir]

8. The storm that is coming is strong

I was speaking about tonight and for a few days. At least give the people their peace for a few nights before the true horror starts up with a civil war....

I'm not naive, I do see the future, but lets hope it won't happen. Perhaps it will work out, I hope it will for their sake. There's been enough suffering in Iraq, but I fear it will continue...

[0007]

16. As long as we have governments that support these despots,

you will always be celebrating. Because they come and go according to the need of the supporting cast.

Case in point, who put Pinochet in power? And how does Kissinger fit in the picture? I know you know bin Laden and the Carlyle group are fairly thick. Just to name a few!

So give me a break with your wild eyed celebrations, 'eh?

[drfemoe]

3. They did

what they said they would do from the beginning .. get his own men to turn against him. Maybe the Mukhabarat can turn up the wmds too? I don't know how many ways that could spin.
...

On December 5, the handpicked Iraqi Ruling Council indicated it plans to revive Mukhabarat.

"We will use their own dogs to hunt them down," exclaimed Nabil al-Musawi, deputy president of the Iraqi National Congress and the party's chief of security. "To think that I am supporting this idea surprises even me. But we have to be realistic... If I have to deal with the devil for short-term gain for the sake of my people, then I will."

http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo12102003.html


On the streets, the conflict played out more openly and bloodily this fall. On a Monday night in November, a white station wagon pulled up to a roadside cigarette stand owned by Shakir Muhammad, a former officer in Mr. Hussein's Mukhabarat. Three masked men hopped out and shot him dead. "His face was all in blood," said one witness, Abu Asad. "They targeted his face."
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031214/ZNYT03/312140464

[Liberal Veteran]

4. At the cost of a couple hundred billion and unknown lives....

....and manpower, there was never any doubt that we could get Saddam Hussein. The question remains: was it worth it? Are we any safer today than we were for the 12 years Saddam was contained and under sanctions in Iraq? I think the answers to both those questions has to be a resounding no. I never lost a minutes sleep worrying about Saddam Hussein. I can say have lost a great deal of sleep over our troops being used for a political agenda that was so blatantly transparent. They've done a bang up job, but the job is still far from complete. Who knows where we will be a year from now? Will their peace in Iraq? We can pray, but history is not on our side for imposing democracy on another country. In the last 100 years only 5 of 18 countries we have forced regime change in have become democracies. Given the severe cultural rivaly between the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis....it's difficult to imagine that a stable, western-style democratic Iraq will arise from the ashes of our attacks. We are already finding that the Iraqi people don't want a government imposed on them by an outside force. In essence we may find ourselves causing more bloodshed than we ever imagined if Iraq breaks out into civil war. Destabilizing a country is not something to be entered into timidly or lightly and this is not something we will easily be able to pull away from in a year's time and say mission accomplished.

Unfortunately, I don't think most Americans truly understand much outside the borders of our own society and will not realize that we may have just as likely set into motion a greater tragedy because the powers that be only see short term gains. The most stable governments in the world are created from within, not by imposition of third party that is looked upon with mistrust.

[Woodstock]

5. that's true

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/12/05/spin_clouds_truth_in_polls_of_iraqis/

...Cheney singled out a question that asked what kind of government Iraq should replicate. Cheney said, "The US wins hands down."

That was another Cheney lie. Of specific countries named, the United States was the "winner," but the favorite of only 21.5 percent of 600 Iraqis. In second place at 16 percent was the monarchy of Saudi Arabia. In third place at 11 percent was the dictatorship of Syria, which the White House and the US Congress have vilified in recent months for not helping us in the war on terrorism. Add in another 9.3 percent of Iraqis who favor an Egyptian or Iranian style of government and Iraqis actually favor less-democratic models of governments in the Arab world over the US model by 34.3 percent to 21.5 percent.

Cheney failed to cite the finding that only 31.5 percent of respondents said the United States and Britain should help make sure a fair government is set up in Iraq, compared to 58.5 percent who say Iraqis should be left to "work this out themselves." Most startling of all was a comparison of which countries Iraqis believe will help or hurt them over the next five years.

In the comparison, 60.2 percent of Iraqis said Saudi Arabia will help Iraq. Only 7.3 percent said Saudi Arabia will hurt. 50.2 percent said the United Nations would help; 18.5 percent said the UN would hurt. But 50 percent said the United States will hurt Iraq; only 35.3 percent said the United States would help...

[jumptheshadow]

6. "Americans (don't understand ) much outside our borders"

How very true.

Like another poster said, I celebrate the capture of this man who perpetuated so any human rights violations.

However, I remain deeply saddened and disgusted by the horrible suffering of the Iraqi people, which has been exacerbated by our administration's petulant unilaterism and greed. The "shock and awe" campaign seemed like a cable-covered snuff film to me.

My heart goes out to anybody who has a relative in the war theater and who pays a daily price in anxiety and financial privation.

My sense of reason tells me that Saddam's crimes could have been handled much more effectively by a President who was effective at waging diplomacy as well as war.

My love of my country causes me to despair at the damage this war has done to our economy, our infrastructure and our social programs, and in the increasing polarization it has generated in our citizenry.

As an internationally oriented person I am deeply discouraged by the rift the war (and other Bush arrogancies) has created with other nations who *want* to like us.

And you are dead right, most Americans just don't understand our true losses. Unfortunately, that blind spot will be exploited, time and again, by Bush & Co.

[Woodstock]

9. & don't forget the horrible losses the US has faced

We'll probably lose 1000 soldiers before this is over, and reports of the horrific injuries of the survivors are heartbreaking - faces blown off, arms and legs blown off, ...

I bring this up, because this naive, everything will be hunky dorey for the Iraqis now, and let's celebrate! stuff is just too much - if the losses the Iraqis have faced in the process of "liberating" them, and the losses they are set to face in the days ahead, don't mean anything to the "let's celebrate" crowd (and it all didn't have to happen - Sadaam could have been controlled with international pressure, that, alas, will no longer happen since Bush has blown any chance they will ever work with us again to hell), perhaps the losses American soldiers have faced/will face will. And that's not even getting into the suffering the massive debt will cause among Americans back home in the years to come... And the military stretched thin causing their sons and daughters to be drafted for another senseless war... And lack of going after the real terrorists causing another 9/11 (God I hope this doesn't happen, but what have they done to prevent it? They've only made the likelihood greater.)

[Liberal Veteran]

10. You make an important point....

When you say that this could have been handled better by a president as adept in diplomacy as war.

It takes no skill to twist a knife through flesh. Any moron can do that. A knife in the hands of a surgeon however becomes a tool of healing, not a tool meant to bring death.

In the larger scheme of things it didn't take much to overthrow the government of Iraq. It was practically child's play when you look at it the imbalance of power. Putting it all back together into a healthy and stable unit has proved to be another matter altogether. It was obvious from the start that our leadership really didn't understand the implication of a creating a vacuum of power in Iraq. I truly think that many people actually believed the fairy tale assumptions that once Saddam was removed from power, we would greeted as liberators with flowers and kisses and democracy would spontaneously emerge to fill the void left by our removal of Saddam Hussein.

I think in the final analysis we are going to find that our childish and romanticized ideas about this adventure will come back to haunt us as we realize that Iraq is a much more complex problem than we ever imagined.

[jumptheshadow]

11. I have to face my conservative colleague today

The one who said to me, "This will be a cakewalk and you will thank George Bush for this." She'll be full of herself. I think I will bury myself in work and ignore everybody.

And I didn't mention the soldiers but my heart goes out to them as well. Everybody I know who served in Nam, the Gulf War or WWII carries deep emotional and/or physical scars.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. No. Walk to her with a BIG smile and say how proud of the MILITARY you are

Trust me, she WON'T like it. She'll look like a child who just found the toy train she got from Santa is broke and has to be taken to the store for changing.

On edit: and at the slightest W-glorifying attempt, swing back with "W? He's a wuss. It was OUR BOUYS who did it, the same ones whose benefits W is cutting. Why do you hate America so much?"

[calimary]

22. How about saying - that military force that Clinton left us with - sure

did a great job, didn't they? GOOD for them!

Then, if you can, absolutely add something about - "maybe bush won't be so anxious cut their VA benefits now..."

[radfringe]

14. back in May or June

Bush* said that Saddam no longer a concern

still looking for the link to that quote - any DUer help is appreciated...

[sendero]

15. Well....

... I'm glad they caught the bastard. But I would say that at a cost of $200 billion, at least 10,000 Iraqi civilians, and 400+ of our men, this was no bargain.

It's pathetic that the "last remaining superpower" has to pay this kind of price to catch one sorry SOB.

[CWebster]

17. Excellent

You articulate the frustration and subsequent feelings of resignation so many feel all to well.

[Woodstock]

18. A guy just gloated at me from down a long hall

I was taken aback. I had no idea what he was laughing about - it was a really mean naa naa naa naa naa laugh - and I consider this guy, if not a friend, someone I get along well with. I said, Huh? He said I was just thinking about Sadaam being captured. I had no idea how deeply Bush's failures in Iraq had bruised their egos. I said will this really change much? He said hell yes, for Bush it will. I said I didn't think so and left it at that.

Too bad I didn't say what a letter writer said to NPR Morning Edition this morning, it went something like this -

"It's nice that Bush is looking out for the Iraqi people and they no longer have to face Sadaam - but when will he look out after the American people, and capture bin Laden? The war in Iraq has been an expensive distraction from the war on terror, and we are still open to attacks like 9/11."

All these lives lost, all this money spent, to "liberate" Iraqis, and we are worse off than before with respect to vulnerability to terrorists.

[opihimoimoi]

19. Score: America 6 Terrorists 264

We got a lot of catching up to do.

[eissa]

20. I'm dreading the holidays

with my freeper family and all their damn gloating. I'm so tormented -- relieved that Saddam is gone (I have family in Iraq and this is a blessing for them), but worried about how this stupid administration will spin this. So far, my line has been "so did the capture of Noreiga end the drug war? We caught someone that the president himself said had nothing to do with 9/11!" I hate repukues! And I soooo distrust this administration -- I really think they have more up their sleeve and are just waiting till close to election to let it rip :-(

[RPG-7]

21. well if they are right and we are wrong..

Iraq should be a veritable garden of eden now that Saddam is gone, right? Democracy is just railroading over the evildoers at record pace? I'd love to be wrong about that, but I'll bet you a bazillion dollars I'm not.