Join the Stop Dean Movement

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

Despite campaigning for 2 years, 75% of Democrats do not want Howard Dean to be the nominee. We are beginning a grassroots organization to prevent Howard Dean from getting the nomination. We invite supporters of all candidates to join our organization as we will not officially endorse a candidate. Our goal is to organize the 75% of Democrats who do not support Dean to vote strategically in their respective states for whoever the top challenger against Dean in that state. Very soon www.stopdean.us will be up and running, and we anticipate to garner the same grassroots support that the Dean campaign itself has been running on. But for now, please join the Stop Dean Yahoo Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stopdean2004/). I ask the proDean folks not to flame as I do not flame their proDean threads. Thank you for your time.

I do not endorse any other candidate at this time (even General Clark) nor am I in any way affiliated with his campaign. I apologize to the General and his supporters for this misunderstanding. I simply admire the man.

[slinkerwink]

1. your post is inflammatory.

[Gman]

30. No its not. This is NOT inflammatory

unless you decide to take it as such. Its simply expressing opposition to Dean.

I'll join today.

[Democrats unite]

51. deleted

edit: decided not to go this route.

[creativelcro]

77. How is it NOT inflammatory

There are so many "deleted" messages... By definition, it is inflammatory, otherwise people would not reply with flames...

[the_boxer_]

129. This is nothing but divisive.

All we need is for a fractured democratic party to run against Bush. This is nonsensical. We need to be united. I like Dean. I like Kucinich. I like Clark. I also like anyone but Bush.

Jeeez. You'd think we'd learn our lesson.

:eyes:

[alwynsw]

The deleted messages are inflammatory - not the post

I copied this from my post on a relevant thread. It needs to be said here as well.

Is it not one of the prime reasons for this venue to provide a place for both the pros and cons of various candidates to be discussed - argued if you will?

Things can get a little rough, especially leading up to the primaries. We all know who we don't want in office. We must collectively decide who the opponent will be. Without free and open discussion about all issues and candidates, we cannot reach a consensus on either.

As my granddad, the preacher used to say, "A debate between a Methodist and a Baptist is good, but if you really want to see the fur fly, go watch a General Baptist and a Southern Baptist debate." My point: as happens with families, the closer we are, the hotter the argument. Same thing with religious debates and political debates and races - the closer we are idealogically, the deeper the divisions over a few issues that outsiders see as minor diversions.

If we are unwilling to let others on this board state their views for or against the candidate(s) of their choice, we are no better than those who would seize power and eliminate our freedoms.

Please note my signature line. Appropriate, don't you think?

[Terran]

158. Do your own math!

If "75% of Democrats do not want Howard Dean to be the nominee", then why do you feel the need to "Stop Dean"? Duh.

[bearfartinthewoods]

61. admin has ruled it isn't so i hope people will accord this thread

the same respect as the thread organizing DUers for Dean .

[bpilgrim]

64. WHAT?

i can not believe skinner is allowing this :crazy:

i won't believe it till i see him state it himself.

peace

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

78. This is 100% legitimate

Why isn't it? If this was "Anybody but Lieberman" EVERYONE on this board would be happy. Since it's "Anybody but Dean" it's somehow bad?

[bpilgrim]

108. ORGANIZING on this board to freep a POLL is PROHIBITED

i would imagine organizing on this board to CAMPAIGN AGAINST a dem would be too.

i will wait to hear what skinner has to say about this...

peace

[alwynsw]

135. How can we expect the process to work without debate?

And that means opinions from all.

[edzontar]

125. Is it disturbing, to say the least...

nt

[cthrumatrix]

112. desparate people (like big $$$) are afraid of Dean.....more the reason

to endorse him...

[LuminousX]

2. Good Luck

If not Dean who?

[Bucky]

3. Luminous X for President!

I'm sure you could keep Jenna from being reelected to a 3rd term (after they pass the 82nd Amendment to allow such things)

[Scoopie]

163. Who?

How 'bout someone who can actually beat Bush?

[LuminousX]

185. And who can actually beat Bush and what evidence do you have

that this person is capable of doing this? What is this person's electoral history? How well has this person done with independent and cross-over voters in the past? How has this person enacted legislation in the past?

[jpgray]

4. I will not join a movement to stop anyone but Bush

No matter how much I disagree with any particular candidate, including Lieberman.

edit: Your post is in *incredibly* poor taste.

[the_boxer_]

132. Agreed, jpgray!!!!

[edzontar]

5. Hurtful, divisive, and a disservice to your avatar...

As someone who supports Dean and Clark in that order, I am offended and deeply annoyed by this post.

Efforts like this serve only the cause of our enemy, Mr. Rove and the pukes.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. sometimes the worst thing about a candidate is their supporters

illustration above.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NicoleM]

7. I remember when, just a week ago,

a lot of anti-Dean people were all about "letting the people decide," instead of telling them who to vote for.

[bearfartinthewoods]

65. so what wrong with people getting together to discuss who they back?

[ET Awful]

8. 75%?

Is that why he leads nationally?

[Maeve]

12. Fun with statistics

If you aren't for him, you must be against him, right? :eyes:

[Guaranteed]

37. Exactly.

That statistic makes use of a common logical fallacy. Dean leads the pack with 25% of Democrats wanting him to be our nominee. Now, that does not mean that 75% of people are against him being our nominee...it just means that 75% are for someone else being the nominee, instead, or are not sure (and, at this point, there are probably still many "not sure"'s).

[retyred]

92. one question

If 75% are for someone else as you say, how is this different than 75% of people are against him? Sounds like fuzzy math.


george bush…pResident?

retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[beyurslf]

117. If you base it off the negative of the support someone has

nationally, then 97% are against DK, 90% against Kerry, and so on. Sounds silly I think.

[Ediacara]

150. you don't have to be against someone if you're not for them

I support Dean, but Clark and Kerry are my number 2 and 3. It doesn't mean I'm against Clark or Kerry. I think Clark or Kerry would be great candidates and probably win in the general, just like Dean.

Opinion polls are based on first choice, and just because someone isn't your first choice, doesn't mean you're against them.

[Ediacara]

147. That's true, but the entire premise is incorrect

Dean leads with MORE than 25% last I checked, so unless his base sample is like 115%.... :-)

[Gore1FL]

19. Well, you have to understand

the margin of error is +/- 70%

[ProfessorGAC]

66. 155%??????

I know you were kidding, but +/-70% of 75% would mean that it was possible that 155% of dems were against Dean.

That struck me as funny, so i had to respond. Get it? 155%! Yeah, i know. What's funny to a stat guy might not be funny to anyone else!
The Professor

[foo_bar]

116. 70+75=155?

I guess I don't get stat humor.

[Vitruvius]

9. The only movement we're interested in is the STOP BUSH movement.

I am among the 75% that would (marginally) prefer another candidate over Dean. But -- ANY of the Democratic candidates is well-qualified and far far better than Bu$h.

I think Kuchinch is excellent and Dean is very good. If Dean is the nominee, I will work for him -- with enthusiasm.

Vitruvius

P.S: ALL the other Clark supporters I know have a much more constructive attitude than yours. You are not representative of Clark supporters, and I will not let your post diminish my opinion of Gen'l Clark.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

68. the two are NOT mutualy exclusive

if a person, like me, feels certain that dean is not the right candidate, then it follows that the only way to stop bush is to stop dean first.

personally, i don't want him stopped, only slowed down a bit so that the process continues at least through february. somehow, this has to be a matter of at least a couple staes worth of people getting to vote rather than simply a matter of who has the biggest cash drawer.

[LeahMira]

10. This is...

... supposed to be satire. Right?

I say "supposed to be" because it sort of fell flat. Well, I hope you're good at something else.

[lostnfound]

11. Clarkies, tell me you are embarassed by this person's approach. n/t

[edzontar]

14. There is no link at the so-called "Stop Dean site" site.

I have contacted the Mods.

[Gman]

32. Not in the least embarassed. Its a legitimate approach

every election there's a "stop somebody" type movement. This is no different.

Get over it.

[edzontar]

38. There is nothing at the link.

Just a domain-to-be.

Seems fishy to me.

[deutsey]

56. Well, you see, you need to know the secret code and all

:eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

57. "Get over it"

Isn't that what some posters said about the 2000 Election, echoing the same words by Al From and his other DLC pukes?

[retyred]

105. Even gore said "Get over It"

when he conceeded the second time....oh wait, it wasn't "Get Over It", it was, "Time To Move On" or something just as silly.



george bush…pResident?

retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[bowens43]

96. Sounds to me like you are admitting that your boy

can't win on his merit. I agree with you. The only way Clark will get the nomination is if there is a coordinated effort by the other candidates to take out the front runner.

[JasonFromWaltham]

49. Entitled to his opinion, but

I think the thread title and using some what associating with clark through the picture, even though there is the disclaimer, is embarrassin

[HoosierClarkie]

87. JasonFromWaltham...

I have to agree. Furthermore,I think we should focus our energy on getting Clark the nomination, not stopping Dean.

[Clark Can WIN]

193. I would probably prefer that he change his avitar for the time being

But he did say the site was not intended to endorse any other specific candidate. There are those of us who are afraid Howard Deans nomination would result in a crushing loss. As I have said before, it's not personal. I don't think he;s evil, I just think that he will lose and I do not want to lose this one. It's too important.

[CWebster]

13. But this is not a pro-anyone thread, this is flamebait

Who founded this group? The Republicans?

[G_j]

15. didn't you get this same post locked yesterday? n/t

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

17. it was different

My previous post was locked because of certain "inflammatory" rhetoric. I say nothing inflammatory in this thread. I respect Dean supporters but I strongly disagree with them, and I intend on uniting the antiDean 75% of the party.

[edzontar]

21. So is that your "future" site that you linked to?

This is not helpful.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

27. just my opinion

but the energy might be better spent working FOR your favorite candidate.
Keep in mind in the awful situation we find our selves in, I can pretty safely say not one of our candidates is a 'monster'. However, Bush is the real thing.

[edzontar]

42. Exactly. How about a postive message in support of Clark?

There is much that I like about him myself.

The candidates as a group are, for the most part, a very admirable bunch.

Why must you be so divisive?

Who do you think this really serves?

[maddezmom]

16. I'm for Clark, but not Anti-Dean or anyother Democratic Candidate

this idea is no better this am than it was last night.

[OneTwentyoNine]

18. Ohh,WOW you got you a domain from Go Daddy!! whoop whoop

What a freakin waste of time and energy.Instead of trying to educate the people with facts why Clark is the better man you go the opposite direction.

What if this doesn't work? Hire Bubba to personally take out Dean??
Shit,this is silly....


David

[bowens43]

20. This is disgusting.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

23. wow. i think i will finally throw my support behind Dean

after reading this. Not being a DEM (although always voting DEM without fail)I usually stay out of this primary fight and just support the nominee in the end but you Clarkies are really getting to be a bit much. you have long surpassed the Deanies in your hysteria...

[maddezmom]

28. are we sure this person is a Clark supporter?

I doubt it. :(

[Barbara917]

90. I wish you would make a decision based upon the candidate....

Why would you judge a whole group of people and Wesley Clark based upon the action of an anonymous individual on the Internet?

Please reconsider. If you choose to support Dean please do so because you have evaluated his positions and experience and have judged him to be the best candidate. I would also ask you to do the same of Clark.

[jonnyblitz]

133. I appreciate your post

but I dont vote in primarys so it doesnt really matter who I support at this stage. I will vote for Clark in the end if he is the nominee no problem. Your thoughtful post is correct in your evaluation of my post I will admit but you would have to understand my political views to see why it doesnt matter to me which DEM I do or do not support at this stage of the game.

[xultar]

24. Please don't post such items as a Clark Supporter, it looks as if

the Clark campaign or Clark supporters as a whole support this type of movement.

Clark has conducted a very classy campaign. Clark has not attacked any other Democratic Canddiate. Please do not destroy his reputation by doing such an act.

Thanks
Turra
Clark Supporter

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gman]

40. Elad didn't like comparing DU to Fox News

this thread does nothing of the sorts. Don't put words in Elad's mouth.

elad ADMIN (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-14-03 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Your tone is not appreciated
Edited on Sun Dec-14-03 07:18 PM by elad


I will not address your question while you're comparing DU to Fox News and accusing us of bias. If you wish to calm down and ask without the unnecessary and insulting rhetoric, please feel free to email me or any other administrator.

Elad

Alert Printer Friendly | | Top

[edzontar]

58. Than you for the link, La Serpiente...

Context is always useful.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

34. 75%

The 75% of Democrats who do not support Howard Dean must be organized. My organization is proDem as it only seeks like minded Democrats and Independents to organize to save the Democratic Party.

[NicoleM]

45. What percentage of Democrats

don't want Clark to be the nominee? 80%? 85%?

[Cheswick2.0]

54. how about the 85 percent who don't support clark?

or the 91 percent who do not support Edwards? :eyes:

[rman]

88. 75%

"75% of Democrats who do not support Howard Dean"

Does not mean 75% of Democrats do oppose Dean, does it?


How many do not support Clark? Do they oppose Clark? Should they organize as well?

Besides, where does that 75% number come from? You mention no source.
I suppose you don't expect us to just take your word for it.

[TexasPatriot]

134. i used this logic

to try to stop both the Dean and Clark people from declaring the race over a couple weeks ago - by saying that 2/3 of the people didnt support EITHER candidate. BUT - that said, once Gore endorsed, it's very clear that Dean is a real honest to god front runner - and he should be treated as the most popular candidate at this point in the race.

That doesnt mean he'll win... or that his ability to engage dems wont hit a wall when he has to go to the supporters of all those candidates that have engaged in all the back and forth bitchslapping.

When the poll percentages had 5 candidates all within the MoE, all the 'we're on top' stuff was silly. It's not silly anymore. If people want to stop Dean, the best way is to make a better case for their own candidate.

People who dont like Dean need to be able to express themselves within our democratic caucus without being inflammatory or being considered as such. There are serious issues with all the candidates that need to be explored - and we're not at the 'get on the bandwagon' stage yet. Dean still has a very low percentage of popularity considering his front runner status - but that statement needs to be moderated.

[vi5]

31. Wow.....this seems counterproductive....

I'm not particularly enamored of Dean and fear his candidacy may be a recipe for not good things. But an entire movement devoted to stopping him seems like a waste of time and energy.

[liberalmuse]

33. In other words, 4 more years for Bush

Thanks. It's people of the sort who stab members of their own party in the back who help the other side. This is....disgusting.

[bearfartinthewoods]

73. did you say the same thing to dean when he was daily attacking

the other dem candidates or, for that matter, when his campaign stabbed joe in the back by mishandling the gore endorsement before gore had a chance to tell him personaly.

for the record, with my own two eyes i saw trippy take responsibility for the news breaking before any phone calls could be made.

[scipan]

192. what Joe Trippi said

that news of Gore's endorsement leaked before the formal announcement. So Lieberman probably heard about it too.
Gore also said he tried to reach Lieberman but couldn't.
So we have Lieberman, knowing what Gore is trying to call him about, probably refusing to take the call, out of pique or possibly political calculation.

Just something to think about.

[JVS]

36. Poop

[ima_sinnic]

39. yes, try to stop more than (so far) a half million people

. . . are you that insecure about your own candidate? He can't stand on his own merits and could win only by a concerted effort to "stop" his opponent? Some candidate!

Thanks, fellow "Democrat." While you are expending energy on defeating one of "your own," be sure not to cheer to loudly when Bush gets re-elected--it just wouldn't look good.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

46. Karl and the Freepers support Dean

Karl Rove and numerous other right wing websites have been channeling money to Dean throughout the election because they understand that a Dean victory in the primaries will mean a Bush victory in the General Election. The reason this group was created was because George Bush must go for America and the Democratic Party to survive. I do not believe Howard Dean can accomplish this. I actually like Howard Dean the man, but believe his is not a good candidate at all to face George W. Bush. Bush must go, but we first we need an electable Democrat.

[edzontar]

55. Divisive, false, and a disservice to the candidate

You claim to support.

Calling all Clarkies!

Repudiate these tactics, please...

[sujan]

198. He is a clark supporter

what did you expect?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

120. Is that why they ran ads against

"those who attack Bush for attacking terrorists" in Iowa, against Dean by name in NH, sent Gillespie to VT for 3 days to campaign against hum?

Yeah, they maybe used to think he'd be a pushover, but not anymore. They're not just afraid of him, they're afraid of his grassroots movement.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

53. We have the power

Dean, himself, says that you have the power. The 75% of Democrats have the power to nominate a candidate other than Howard Dean and we can and will be heard. Thank you.

[IndianaGreen]

47. Most Americans believe that there are still WMDs in Iraq

and that Saddam was involved in 9/11.

So much for your group and its beliefs!

BTW, assuming that all kinds of dirty tricks take place by people that want "anybody-but-Dean" and the Democratic Establishment gets a prowar Democrat as the nominee, how do you propose to get millions of antiwar Americans to vote for your "nominee"?

It is very likely that the antiwar voters will go elsewhere to find their peace candidate. Most of those voters are independent, and are completely oblivious to infantile calls for "party unity," particularly if it seems that the process was subverted by the very same people that pushed the Congressional Democrats into voting for IWR.

I suggest you ask yourself if you are prepared to live with the consequences of your actions...

[Q]

48. Beyond disgusting...

...to the point where you're actually HELPING the Bush* campaign.

[farmbo]

59. You're not going to get grassroots support for an astroturf cause...

Trying to fan the embers of some of these dying Olde Democratic campaigns so that they can slime Dean with Rovian tatics like the Bin Ladin ad is not going to appeal to 75% of the Democrats. Maybe 75 Democrats...paid staff for the beltway candidates.

Join forces with Lieberman, James Hoffa and the Teamsters, and other "progressives" and support stopdean!

Yeah right.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

62. Someone can't count.

75%? Can I see your polling data?

I'm surprised people with this level of intellect can even SPELL Dean.

[HuckleB]

63. This is pitiful.

We are truly our own worst enemy.

[Hep]

67. You gonna sell the domain to Rove

after Dean wins the nomination?

[rman]

69. yeah, don't waste energy on the Stop Bush movement... n/t

-

[bearfartinthewoods]

75. we can't stop bush unless we run the right candidate

some folks seem to have a problem with that concept.

[bobbyboucher]

70. Join the circular firing squad!

It really works! Brilliant. Got any more bright ideas?

[bearfartinthewoods]

118. the circular firing squad???

where in the hell was all this outrage when dean was daily taking pot shots at the rest of the dem candidates?

the hypocracy of some in the dean camp is unreal. dean gets to say anything he wants about the other candidates yet when people fight back it's suddenly a problem. pffffft.

[Cheswick2.0]

72. maybe the administration can link this org on the front page

:shrug:

[rucky]

74. Um, I don't think this is what is meant by "Divide & Conquer"

[JNelson6563]

76. Day late and a dollar short

Gonna start gettin' organized NOW are you? hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

Rots of ruck considering the first primary is like a month away. <snarf> You lone-man-shaking-fist-at-sky types crack me up.

Julie

[janx]

79. It *is* pretty funny. I followed the link to the site, and there's

ONE post there. One member?

!

[madfloridian]

98. Well, now that the thread is open again, there are 15 who have joined.

I think this is good for Dean.

[JNelson6563]

200. how many are you?

Old trick, widely used here too. ;-)

[realFedUp]

80. Very divisive

If I wanted to vote for a Republican, I have some
Democrats to choose from...

[oc2002]

81. Thats just counter productive, and stupid.

This is plain dumb.

You should have a stopBush2004.com or whatever.

If you do not like a candidate, fine. But this is a dirty campaign only suitable of Republicans.

[Duder]

82. It'll be Dean versus Bush...

Your choice.

[CWebster]

83. Wasn't this locked?

No, I see all the posts requesting it be locked have been deleted...At first it made me angry that they unlocked it, but is encouraging to see all the posts disgusted with it.

[madfloridian]

86. It was unlocked because the admin said it was ok.

.

[edzontar]

113. I asked about this in the Admin. thread.

nt

[Bill of Rights]

84. I don't think DU

is the right place for trying to start a movement against a legitimate, viable democrat candidate.

I love Clark's candidancy, and feel that he is not being served well by this trash.

Sorry, but this is what I believe,

[supernova]

85. Can't take this thread seriously

I just can't. The original poster deserves all the laughter and derision directed at him about it.

This is counterproductive, shooting ourselves in the foot, etc. at worst and in very poor taste at best.

[rman]

100. well, my derision got deleted

so be carefull; responding to these kinds of threads will rank up 5 deleted posts (=24 hr ban) in no time.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamondsoul]

91. As a Kucinich supporter,

this just makes me sad. Stop Dean indeed! You want to stop Dean, then push your own candidate, but don't call on Democrats and democrats to attack a Democratic Candidate like this.

[HoosierClarkie]

93. Agree! n/t

[madfloridian]

94. Actually I think this helps Dean and hurts Clark.

I really do. With all the folks from talk radio visiting today, I think it will help. If they see Dean as someone the Democrats want to stop, they might think he is worth looking at.

This is a very important thread.

[maddezmom]

95. RATM

Your words:
<<< I do not endorse any other candidate at this time (even General Clark) nor am I in any way affiliated with his campaign. I apologize to the General and his supporters for this misunderstanding. I simply admire the man.>>>>

Would you consider removing your avatar? It implies you are a supporter and that in some way Clark is for this type of website.

[maddezmom]

141. thank you

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

119. I second my abhorrence and total rejection

Of this post and of these tactics.

In my opinion, at least, they have no place on a site like DU.

[the_boxer_]

146. I third it.

[mzmolly]

99. Have you notified free republic.. I'm sure they'd be interested.

http://freerepublic.com/

[Stuckinthebush]

101. Shortsighted

And just what will you do when Dean wins the nomination? Help a Bush "Stop Dean" movement too?

The term "shortsighted" is the kindest term I can use for this silliness.

Perhaps the mods will lock this since it is clearly inflammatory and not helpful to our collective goal of ousting Bush.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

102. Has someone posted this at the Dean blog? They keep up with sites.

Might be a good idea.

:hi:

[Snellius]

103. This stuff only weakens us

Of course, with so many candidates, most don't agree on who will carry the flag. But is your commitment so weak that you would rather support Bush than back Dean?

[bearfartinthewoods]

151. my commitement is that i'd rather beat bush than back dean

because i don't think he can beat bush. i have raised questions about dean's positions for weeks. they are ignored, mocked or deflected. no one has convinced me that i am wrong in my estimations of his chances. so i am faced with two choices, trust that we can, as Skinner put it, catch lightning in a bottle or do whatever i can to slow down dean and let a normal primary season happen. i chose the latter.

btw...if the dean people have so much confidence in their candidate, why are they so afraid of a full primary process?

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

110. They unlocked it.

Said it was ok.

Let's see, it does not seem to helping Clark at all.

[Fleshdancer]

107. You admire Clark???

That may be true, but with everything I've read and seen about Clark, I bet he wouldn't admire crap like this. Clark runs a campaign on his own ideas and merits and with the goal of getting Bush out of office. That my friend, is leadership. Not anti-insert Democratic candidate name here.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JPace]

114. I'm for the "stop the bush movement"

and last time I looked it was the
Dean Movement that is doing just that!

[Clark Can WIN]

115. Damn, I can't believe they haven't locked this

I understand what you are doing though. If Dean gets the nomination I will fight for him even though I believe he will lose terribly.

Until the nomination is locked, I will continue to work to see that Wes Clark is tne nominee.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[onecitizen]

122. Why don't you come up with.........

an idea of your own instead of copying Dean's ideas?

And please tell us why this is not an inflammatory post?

I had not decided on a candidate yet. I like Dean and Clark. But some of the tactics used by some of the other campaigns go overboard and it makes me less likely to support that candidate.

[KaraokeKarlton]

123. Edited to avoid deletion

I am so disappointed by this. I can't even begin to describe how much so.

[madfloridian]

126. Do not question it.

The mods unlocked it. Said it is legit. It is just another "legit" group the Dean folks need to know about.

;)

[KaraokeKarlton]

130. nevermind

:shrug:

[Selwynn]

127. I'm a Clark supporter, and even I say this thread needs locked.

If you want to actively campaign against any democratic candidates, you ought to have to do it somewhere other than a democratic board.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gringo]

128. How pathetic - you will only drive more people into the Dean camp

How do you figure 75% of dems are against Dean?

If you've got someone so great, put him up against Dean, tell us what's so great about him - why we should vote for him.

Just as the dem candidate needs to run on something other than "Bush is bad, and I'm not Bush", the only way you are going to beat Dean is with a positive candidate and a positive message.

This "Anybody but Dean" crap is a turn-off and makes me want to vote for Dean more.

Instead of telling me what's so terrible about Dean - tell me what's so great about any of these other guys.

[bearfartinthewoods]

136. you have the right to determine who you choose to support

for any reason, vakud or unvalid, as does everyone else. the problem lies with this aura of inevitability of the early frontrunner which is setting things up so that no one or precious few people have a chance to vote on the decision. this type of mass dis-enfranchisment should be an abomination to dems. the idea that this should be over before it even begins is paving the way back to the days before primaries and should be fought at all costs.

[Gringo]

148. I agree with that

But just endlessly bashing somebody does nothing to elevate anybody else against him. I'd ditch Dean for Clark or Kerry in a New York second, if either of them would start campaigning like they really wanted it, and would send out a clear signal that they will be brutal on Bush. So, I guess what I mean is, I want a positive message, but the candidate needs to also show some cojones in challenging Bush on his myriad of failures and crimes. Clark seems too timid, and Kerry just seems bored by it all.

[sendero]

131. Well....

... I've now had my first "post deleted" after hitting "reply" when I meant to hit "alert". After seeing my message, I dedided it was no more against the rules than the original thread-starting post, so I left it.

I guess the moderators have a different idea, and for the first time I can remember, I seriously disagree with them.

Is this an illegal post too? If I start a blatant anti-Kerry or anti-Clark thread, is that legal? If I put up a website as a cover, which I can do for about $8, does that lend creedence and validity to my clearly anti-Dem point?

[madfloridian]

137. How can you edit a picture after an hour?

Amazing, I did not know we could do that now?
Hmmm..mmm
Kick for Dean.

[Elad]

140. Jeez there's no conspiracy here

That's his avatar picture, you change it from your USER OPTIONS screen, and whenever you change it, it changes on all your posts. Someone asked RATM to change it to stop any confusion with Clark's campaign, apparently he decided to do so.

[madfloridian]

142. Sorry, I did not realize that.

That was very nice of him to do that. I think this is good for Dean today.

[Hawkeye-X]

179. Ooh Dustpuppy.

I've got to get that avatar! :D

[Nazgul35]

138. So let me get this straight...

your beef is with a candidate who has support across a large number of primary states, and is in a position to finish in the top three of al of them and your response is to kill him by a thousand cuts because your candidate can't pull the same level of support...

Very clever....instead of this infintile attempt you should have called on all Kerry, Gephardt, Kucinich, Edwards supporters to change their allegiance to Clark....

Perhaps you should have appealed to a consensus around an alternative to Dean in the last month left before Iowa....

But you didn't...and it is sad that desperation has driven you to this level of discourse...

As a Dean supporter...I have run into many people who have left a bad taste in my mouth re: their anti-Dean posts.....almost as many as there have been idiots on the Dean side of the ledger...

But I want to let all of you decent, hard working fellow Dems, Greens and Independents out there that these types of attacks do nothing to influence my personal opinion about our candidates...so don't be concerned....most of us are adults here and know better!!!

Solidarity brothers and sisters!!!

[madfloridian]

139. The Clark icon was there a few minutes ago, now it is not.

Amazing.

[madfloridian]

144. Avatar was changed, reply to clarify my post.

I don't do that often, and did not realize.

I think the mods are angry, and I did not mean to do that.

[jonnyblitz]

145. wow. from Clark to Kennedy. it was Clark when I first read this.

n/t

[bearfartinthewoods]

153. i think this is an attempt to do just what you suggest.

[lewiston]

143. Yeow!

I have met the enemy and he is us

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

149. THANK YOU

My faith in DU has been restored. This is the battle for the heart and soul of the Democratic Party. I imagine Dean supporters will be emboldened by my efforts, but I only hope and anticipate we will build the same grassroots support that Governor Dean has. I changed my avatar because it was requested by certain Clark supporters. Godspeed to all for and against me cause.

[madfloridian]

155. Yes, now it is generic Dem against Dean....that is fine, too.

Best of luck in building up your grassroots movement.
:hi:

[edzontar]

159. Indeed. I am now thoroughly committed to stopping your so-called

"Stop Dean movement."

And I am not proud to be a member of this board today.

[salin]

194. maybe the 'grassroots' movement should be called

"Segretti's Legacy"? I caution you to really think about the long term damage that might be caused by intentionally building anger, vitriol and alienation among different democratic groups. In the end - regardless who the nominee is - we have to work together in a far more significant way than simply going to vote. We will be outspent by a ratio of probably 3:1 or worse... our candidate(s) will be smeared by unanticipated pushpolls and deceptive mailings... the media will be tipped to favor the GOP and the talking heads media will echo Rove's talking points as they did in 2000. The ONLY way to beat that - with ANY democratic candidate - will be to get engaged going door to door, talking one on one, locally getting information out that counters the GOP spin, and presents a positive/alternative message... the election will be won - by a one-on-one strategy. Alienating whole swaths of 'volunteers' by feeding further into divisions.... is likely to hurt the democratic party at the top of the ticket, and on down. Do as you may - but do so taking responsibility for the side-effects that will also result.

[Duncan Grant]

152. "Join the Stop (your candidate here) Movement"

"We are beginning a grassroots organization to prevent Howard Dean from getting the nomination." - RageAgainstTheirMachine

Desperate times call for desperate measures, eh? Mind if I ask what happens once Dean is 'stopped' and a new 'threat' emerges? Shall we then organize to stop them? And then organize to stop the next, and the next, and the next? Who shall emerge as the least common denominator?

Another strategy might be considered...one in which we prepare arguements that prove our candidate is the best person for the job. I find it disappointing that the 'low road' is so seductive here at DU...truly appalling.

[Patriot_Spear]

154. With friends like these who needs the GOP.

If Democrats are behind this movement we deserve to lose.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

172. This is sophistry.....

Are you claiming that any one of the other eight has a better chance against Bush than Dean?

There are maybe three or four who have any chance at all in the Final election, and by any rational estimate, Dean is one of them.

You are not fooling everyone on this board, sir, although you have done some serious damage. I will give you that.

I'll probably get deleted for saying this, but sometimes the REAL truth must be said, especially when it is most under threat.

[maxanne]

the truth is

this is an election. You claim to be a Democrat, yet you're trying to destroy a Democratic candidate. If you are what you say you are - why not let the electoral process do it's work?

Yeah, it's real closeminded of me not to embrace racism and white supremacists. I'll have to work on that.

[robbedvoter]

157. I oppose W's opponent of choice - because I want W out

And I don't think anyone should have to apologize for that. I resent the Rovian tactics of the Deanies: you should denounce this, apologize for that. Voters have a right to chose the most qualified guy - and this is a primary. Stop ganging on any opposition in the name of...ugh...democracy?
So, I am joining RATM's group and commend him/her for taking the initiative that should have been taken earlier. I know the media + Gore say it's unpatriotic to criticize *D. I happen to believe they are wrong . So, those of you who can stand the bullies, come on! Join and defend RATM against this onslaught.

[scipan]

196. would you care to back up ANY of your assertions?

- W's opponent of choice
- Rovian tactics of the Deanies
- media says it's unpatriotic to criticize Dean
- Gore says it's unpatriotic to criticize Dean

And please don't tell me that Rove saying he wants Dean while he is speaking publicly at a parade, is evidence, because that is politically naive in the extreme.

[burning bush]

161. Remember when Kucinich, Sharpton and Braun were dissed?

By a major news network, and a cry rang out all over DU?

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?

So, its appropriate to turn your attention-not in support of any one-but towards defeat of a candidate? The front running candidate?

But its a crime when the bottom tier are left out of the news?

This STINKS, and I don't understand how the responsible parties can show their faces in this forum without shame.

[robbedvoter]

167. I do, and I wrote ABC about it. Media manufactures a nominee and we

should not allow them! All the candidates whose statements were ignored only to be highlighted later - as spoken by the anointed one. Time to do something together about it - even as we continue supporting our candidate of choice.
The primaries are just starting!

[webkev]

162. I disagree..

but I do feel that voters need to use their head and do maths

I really wanted to vote for Nader in 2000 but ended up voting for Gore to try and block Shrub..

I know we won the election, so I am still proud of my decision..

if we don't choose a candidate with the best chance to win, we are not being responsible voters

and we'll be bowing to this in 2014,,

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

164. 30 + members in our first 4 hours

Join the Revolution; If you want to stop Bush, you must first stop Dean.

[edzontar]

168. Join the "Stop the Join the Stop Dean Movement" Movement

Still room on the bus!!

This thread is a disgrace and an embarrassment.

[TLM]

184. LOL!!! 30 members... yet there's what like 200 posts in this thread

most of which are sayign this is stupid shit... even folks who do not support Dean.


So really I have to thank you Dean haters for brinign people together so effectivly to support Dean and attack your efforts to derail the democratic frontrunner.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MGKrebs]

166. I doubt this movement will go anywhere, but

it's worth another $25 to the Gov. anyway!

Cha-ching!

[unfrigginreal]

169. What a great use of my donations to DU

Who would have ever thought that by supporting a forum of Democrats, that I would be subjected to organizing against a Democrat? We sure have come far as a community.

Disgusting.

[robbedvoter]

173. Did you buy silencing of views of *D opponents on DU?

I thought DU was for all progressives - all who want W out. I didn't know that your donor status makes your voice more acceptable than mine. I live on social security and gace the matchable by CFR $ 250 to my candidate. So, ugh, I should shut up now?
Same mentality that gets *D's trolls on our blog to laugh at our fundraisers. Same arrogance that fuels passion into this new thing. Keep it up!

[unfrigginreal]

182. There's a difference between you, me or any individual making...

a case for or against a candidate and allowing organizing against a Democratic candidate.

By these standards, Democrats for Nixon would have probably been received at DU with open arms and they may be again with a variation on the Republican that they support.

[edzontar]

174. My sentiments exactly.

I have passed my own concerns on to the Mods in e-mails.

I suggest that you do the same.

In any event, this is a sad day at DU.

[robbedvoter]

180. Another rich guy I offended?

[Duncan Grant]

175. Agreed!

Skinner has made appeal after appeal to improve the quality of GD. This thread is a new low.

[madfloridian]

170. We have radio folks coming on board soon, so they will see who Dems hate.

Amazing, huh? This is the oddest day or so I have ever seen on forums. Up is down, in is out, black is white.

And we are advocating the overthrow of our own Democrats.

Now that is real anger and hatred, and it is so productive.

Let's keep this up for Dr. Dean, so he can truly see what to expect. I think he knows, but just to be sure.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

171. Tell Howard Dean to drop out and

stop bashing the 8 other candidates.
To beat Bush, we must present a viable candidate; unfortunately Governor Dean is not that candidate.

[TLM]

177. If they can't beat Dean...

then how can they hope to beat Bush?

[burning bush]

181. I just sent another $50 bucks to Dean

I hope that one day you realize that you've created a fence, not a movement, and when you do, I hope you don't find yourself locked on the wrong side, alone with your hate.

Your attitude is fucked.

[maxanne]

183. it's a shame

the right wingers are so afraid of Dean that they resort to this.

[LuminousX]

188. Who is that candidate?

[Hippo_Tron]

176. I have every intention of trying to stop Dean...

By supporting my favorite candidate John Kerry.

[molly]

197. Now this is a very positive post!

me too!

[littlejoe]

178. You will only cause us Dean supporters to be better united

and much stronger. Some democrats, myself included feel that this type of treachery on your part would not be appreciated by any of the candidates.

[robbedvoter]

190. BETTER UNITED? Treachery?

I thought you were quite united as it is - to the point of never questioning what fearless keader does or says. Campaign finance? Who needs it! Truth? Overrated. Is the Kool Aid going to get stronger now? What are the punishments for trachery? Will Ashcroft be involved?

[MarkTwain]

186. GO For It, RATM !!

.... with profound wishes that you prevail on behalf of all the children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of this country who should not be subjected to living under a SCOTUS informed and controlled by the appointments which four more years of Resident McHappyCrack and his cabal of wingnut fundamentalists will install and whose impact will travel for three to four generations.

With regrets to the good Doctor who means well and maybe fifty years from now when this country has matured might well have a chance of being elected, but not this election cycle. No Way !

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drfemoe]

189. Clark is not going to get the nomination

we know today you say you're not affiliated with a campaign, but your blog on Clark's site rather betrays that assertion, as does your position as Director for GW Students for Clark. http://www.gwforclark.com/contact.html .. whiteguy00000


Even Dean voters who once gave Clark notice see this for what it is. Grassroots cannot be bought and manipulated.

Clark has brought his long history of racketeering into the democratic campaign and it won't fly. Clark is still working for the republican party, or at least the democratic wing of the republican party.

Personally, I am prepared to suffer through the rest of my life living in the *u*h empire if that is what life calls on me to do. At least he doesn't pretend to be a democrat.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Elad]

201. I'm now locking this thread - PLEASE READ

I'm locking this thread because it has reached 200 posts and has produced virtually no substantive discussion whatsoever. I want to reiterate, however, that the original post did not violate DU's rules, all candidates are trying to stop the other candidates.

I also want to reiterate disappointment with people's responses to this thread. As you can all see, there are many deleted posts on this thread. Several people felt that because they didn't like the message, it was ok to break DU's rules and a) attack the messenger, b) attack the mods and admins. There is never an excuse to break DU's rules, and it's very disappointing to see that people still think "It's ok in SOME cases..." It's not.

With all that said, this thread has ran it's course, and I no longer have the time to sit here babysitting it for rule violations from people who should know better. I have much more important things to be doing, and so do all of you.