Is the real story about Dean's Gov's Papers his ties to lobbyists?

[AP]

There's a 74 post thread below which got me thinking about this. Dean gave Enron a huge tax break to locate that captive in VT. People say that anything to get employers into a state is good. However, you can't give EVERYONE a fat tax break, or you're asking individual taxpayers to underwrite the profitability of businesses (and, in some cases, businesses which aren't all that interested in individuals amassing any personal wealth, like, oh, say, energy and insurance companies).

Then there's also Dean's record of aggressively persuing CA-style deregulation in VT. I was just rereading how CA got CA-style energy deregulation: aggressive lobbying.

So, I'm thinking that Dean's records might contain a lot of evidence of willingness to deal with lobbyists, and not just any lobbyists, but the kind of lobbyists that the Cato Inst loves -- the kind the Republicans have been servicing for 20 years.

Discuss.

[AP]

1. For some reason, I'm unable to edit the post & I want to add:

60% tax reductions don't come out of thin air. I'm sure Enron lobbied hard for that break.

[Hep]

2. Dean did what governors do

and yet he's singled out for it. Easy in a one governor race.

And we apparently suspect Dean of pulling CA style rderegulation yet what happened to Vermont's energy crisis and revolving brown outs?

This is what happens when people have Dean on the brain, an affliction far less expected and far more pervasive than Gulf War syndrome and Monkey Pox combined. It's a natural side effect to Dean's campaign model.

Or is that not what you wanted to discuss?

[molly]

3. I didn't know VT had brown outs?

[dsc]

4. that his point

they didn't. In point of fact when the east coast went dark Vermont didn't. Even though places like Cleveland did.

[blm]

7. Thanks to the legislature which wouldn't cave to Dean on deregulation.

If Dean had his way, Vermont electricity would have been deregulated.

How anyone can twist that into a point towards Dean is simply astounding. Let's applaud Dean because he was INEFFECTIVE in his push to deregulate? Huh?

[AP]

16. And if Dean was bending over backwards for the same people who

lobbied CA (where they had more success with the legislature) then he would be the bad guy.

[AP]

8. dean thanked legislature for denying him the deregulation he wanted

So, do we owe lack of brownouts to Dean or to legislature, or does it have nothing to do with either?

[Hep]

10. So dean admitted fault

and he's a bad guy and still believes what he believed before he admitted fault.

The only thing that could make this arc more idiotic would be some quote from an undetermined time taken out of context. Care to help us out, AP?

[AP]

15. more like, CYA

He had to say something, or people were going to figure out the truth.

Why is Dean's term as governor an "undetermined" time?

When he GOVERNED he did a lot of stuff that he now says he's against when he's CAMPAIGNING. There's your context.

[Hep]

19. There we go

More expert analyss from the all knowing.

[AP]

28. This is such a weak rhetorical substitute for addressing the issues.

Unless you're just trying to force these threads to become so labarythine that people are discouraged from reading them, I have no idea what you think comments like serve to achieve.

[Donna Zen]

23. New England grid

IIRC we have a consortium. They were able to go to a regional set up as the black out continued to roll.

[molly]

9. I don't think the entire state of VT has the population

count of Cleveland - nor the industry.

[AP]

5. Yes. All Governors are torn in every direction by lobbyists.

But they don't give everyone everything they want. And it might be very telling to look at to whom Dean gave.

So far, it looks like he gave some Wall St companies with deep connections to Republicans everything they wanted.

So long as he was balancing budgets, so what? Is that what you think?

[Hep]

11. I'm thinking you're not from Vermont

And I'm wondering what exactly John Edwards has done to address this problem, coinsidering he's done nothing in NC.

[AP]

14. see, it's Edwards that made me think about this...

At his commonwealth club speech he said that (1) Bush is auctioning off the government to private buyers, and (2) that Bush should go out on the WH lawn once a week and explain to the public how much it costs them every week when Bush gives lobbyists everything they want.

Edwards doesn't take any money from lobbyists and PACs so they barely bother him.

He's right. At this point in America the marriage of money and gov't is one of its biggest problems. Dean sounds like he can be the Democratic poster boy for that marriage.

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. He doesn't NOW

You really need to go to opensecrets.org and check out Edwards' donor list and profiles. He's not as "squeaky clean" as you think, AP.

[AP]

18. I do go on opensecrets, and Edwards does look pretty clean to me.

Do you have any specific allegations?

In Feb 2002, Dean got over 100K seed money for his presidential run from the energy company execs he worked so hard to assist as governor.

Do you really think, at this moment in American history, we need to replace a Republican married to lobbyists with a Democrat who sleeps arround with lobbyists himnself?

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. There's a little scandal on Edwards regarding his funds

Seeing as I'm not quite as gung ho about slandering Edwards as you are about slandering Dean, I'm going to be nice and not plaster it all over this site.

Claiming that Dean supports Star Wars was bad enough, AP, especially since it was blatantly false. But now you've resorted to re-posting things that have already been quite thoroughly debunked. That doesn't help John Edwards one bit. And it certainly doesn't change any Dean supporters' minds about supporting him. It just makes YOU look bad. If that's the way you want to be perceived, that's your business, but I happen to think it's really lame.

[AP]

30. I'll take that as evidence Edwards is clean.

(1) I like that tactic -- waiving around the reams of blank papers, pretending something's in there. Where have I seen that before?

Could you be talking about thos Miss donations from the secretaries? They gave that money back, and Edwards can hardly be blamed if lawfirms with which he's never ever had any business can see for themselves what Bush is doing to the civil justice system in America and get a little too zealous. Dean knows that feeling, except it seems that it's the energy lobby which is zealous about him.

And, and by the way, that's cute how you disguise either the fact that you don't what this story was about, or that you do know, and you know that there's nothing to it, behind the characterization that you're above "slandering." That's cute. Incidentally, the truth is a defense to a charge of defemation. I think I have the truth on my side.

(2) The Star Wars thing -- Hello. That was an article that I cut and pasted and discussed with everyone else. I'm not responsible for the content of a news stories I post in LBN, so I don't see how I can be responsible for that. However, I stand by my analysis: Dean seems to like spending taxpayer money on very big business, and he didn't seem like he was prepared to draw the line at militarizing space. You can't deny that can you?

(3) What has been debunked?

[redqueen]

31. The claim that he got seed money from energy execs

was debunked?

Please cite a reference. If this has been debunked I'd like to know for sure.

Thanks.

[AP]

32. Karaoke is making a purposefully non-specific, general claim...

...of debunking. I don't even think there's a specific allegation that Dean's seed money wasn't from the energy execs. I think if you follow the thread here, Karaoke is making a reference to dsc's claim that the WS piece lauding Dean's libertarian-ness was debunked in regard only to claims that Dean raised every tax he could.

If you read that piece, the general message is Dean is a libertarian. He may do some things that don't seem very libertarian, but we shouldn't be too worried about him, becuase he does lots of things we like too. I haven't seen dsc's 'debunking', but my intution tells me that dsc proved that the things the article claims Dean did that weren't very libertarian were exaggerated, and that nothing in it is therefore credible.

On the whole, though, you can't ignore (1) Dean's pro-libertarian quotes (and what the hell is he doing at the Cato Inst in the first place?), and (2) the fact that you have the WS soft pedaling on Dean (which they did again this past week in an article which tries to argue Dean's electability).

[Padraig18]

35. Would you be referring to the sale of his house, KK?

One wonders... ;)

[Hep]

20. Who needs a PAC

when 55% of your donations have been at the $2000 level? It appears to be a good thing that he's not having people offering to reimburse secretaries for circumventing FEC regulations anymore.

And Edwards has done a tremendous job in Congress of helping out our state WRT the hog industry, the textile industry, the tobacco industry, and the furniture industry. He's been real stand up.

[AP]

25. Thanks for chance to explain why even you'll be voting for Edwards.

Did you know that the DLC doesn't like Edwards because he has voted to protect the interests of NC workers rather than further the goals of globalization?

That's what happens when you don't deal with lobbyists and PACs. You do what's right for workers. Edwards didn't help the hog industry, textile industry or tobacco industry becuase he was lobbied by management. He helped them when it was the right thing to do to protect jobs in industries vital to NC economic well being -- jobs which allowed the working class and middle class to get bigger and stronger.

Enron. Now there's another story. Helping Enron didn't make any employee better off. In fact, helping Enron probably pushed out competitors from the marketplace who were ethical, and would be paying out to pensions today, and employing people today.

Enron was about the transfer of money from the middle class to the wealthy. And Dean didn't help them because it was the right thing to do for VT.

Dean probably helped Enron because he's the energy lobby's bitch.

[HFishbine]

36. On Thin Ice

I hope you're not really counting on that angle to get Edwards any traction. He's been plenty responsive to corporate lobbyists even at the expense of NC's environment and public health. Really, you don't want to try to hold Edwards up as someone untouched by corporate influence -- it's simply untrue.

[AP]

37. If he doesn't take lobby and PAC money what does he gain?

Clearly he's motivated by the desire to do what's right for the majority of NC'ians, and the majority are employees and not management.

When politicians are cutting tax deals for Enron, who's getting the bulk of the wealth created by that? You merely need to look at Ken Lay's inside trading records for the year before Enron went dead to answer that question. It isn't the employees.

And I suspect that if you had anything worth talking about, you'd state your facts rather then mage vague, general, unsupported statements.

If you have something, I'd love to talk about it, 'cause I'm getting a little tired talking about Dean's miserable record on being big business's bitch all the time.

[HFishbine]

44. Pssst! In here

AP, I like Edwards more than not. But I know from first hand experience that he has put coprorate interests ahead of the interests of common North Carolinians in the past.

I'm not sure where you get the notion that he hasn't accpected money from lobbyists, but is blatantly untrue. Here is one I found in two minutes.

$31,600 in 2002 from Womble Carlyle -- registered lobbyists for FedEx.

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00002283&cycle=2002

and

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/firm.asp?ID=95181&year=2000

[KittyWampus]

6. Quibble Re: Dean's DeRegulation Scheme

AP- from what I read Dean used a scheme similar to the one used in Quebec... and it was already apparent when Dean was pushing for it that it cost Quebec taxpayers a bundle without doing much good for the consumers. So the Quibble is that it was more like Quebec, perhaps, than CA. At least we see that Dean had a bad example in his own back yard.

DeRegulation is NOT inherently BAD. There are schemes where it can work to everone's advantage. Like caps on certain pricing. Not my strong suit but I've found good arguments for certain kinds of deregulation.

Found this bit from the Watchman #33:

About six years ago, our benevolent power companies and a few high level politicians and bureaucrats rammed through a disastrously overpriced deal with Hydro Quebec. A lot of people complained about it at the time but the financial implications flew far over the heads of most Vermonters. Now, the chickens come home to roost. And now S-62 proposes to give nearly the same cast of bad actors, bumbling and/or conniving utility executives, their political cat's paws, and their captive techno-bureaucrats, the responsibility of cleaning up this very smelly hen house.

Contrary to the usual media slush, S-62 does NOT deregulate the electric utility industry in Vermont any more than NAFTA brought about "free trade."

http://together.net/~wudchuck/987_watchman_34.html

For really insightful and well-rounded information on DeRegulation, Free Trade & Globalization Etc:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/FreeTrade/ProtectOrDeregulate.asp

[AP]

12. I read something here a while ago -- it was a quote from a Dean admin

official who was trying to convince VT'ers that Dean's deregulation was good because the sale price meant VT'ers were getting a big chunk of cash.

However, the logic of this baffles me. Private buyers wouldn't lay down that cash unless they were getting a return on their investment.

It's like a credit card advance. Yeah, you get a big chunk of cash. But the credit card company is getting the money back, plus more. So you better be spending that money on something valuable and not, for example, be using it to give tax cuts to rich people.

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. This is nothing but a load of mallarky...do the math people!

The tax cuts being whined about are from 1993. Enron opened their captive in 1995. The cut was already in effect 2 years before Enron opened their captive. Pray tell me, just how the hell does that add up to Dean giving Enron a huge tax break? Enron wasn't even there yet. The truth of the matter is this...Enron saw that Vermont was a good place to open a captive and opened one rather than opening one in Bermuda or the Caymans. It was perfectly legal for Enron to open a captive here and even if Dean wanted to he couldn't tell them no. And none of us have a crystal ball. Who knew Enron would turn out to be corporate crooks? Apparently those who are making a big deal out of this knew...so why didn't they tell the rest of us?

This thread ain't nothin' but shit.

[bearfartinthewoods]

22. we'll never know...oh...that's right, we get to find out what he's hiding

in february when it's too late to do anything about it except listen to the rove spin on it.

[Donna Zen]

24. A repost from the original thread:

Although we support different candidates for the top of the ticket, AP and I are often on the same side in these discussions, and today is no exception. First, a thank you to AP for keeping and ordering some important links, a task I seem unable to do. Second, I will try to make sense of my perceptions about what is going on here. Gov. Dean’s supporters freely admit that their choice is not a liberal, and often describe him as a centrist, fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Now that would be a common position among some Democrats, especially Democrats of the DLC. Bill Clinton proved to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. As AP’s links have pointed out Dr. Dean is far more fiscally conservative and far less socially liberal than Clinton. So what ideology does that leave? The CATO, a libertarian aligned group would seem to be Dean’s ideological home. A republican who smokes dope is the definition that is often the quip, although the explanation is more complex. Nevertheless, a cognitive disconnect would seem to be occuring among the base who agree that their candidate is a centrist, and yet argue that he is not.

Now what I think is being said here is this: why would one want to nominate Gov. Dean? Aside from a rather muddy stance against the war, what is he offering to the Democratic Party? If he is going to represent “the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, what worth and meaning does that statement contain other than the sound bite value used to fire up the base but meaning little less nothing? Or is the base center-Libertarian? Finally, what appeal to the general electorate does Gov. Dean bring? IOW, is he electable?

Which boils down to: why oh why are we doing this? Of course I am ABB, but I would also like to replace bush in the general electiion. And, I would like to replace him with someone who is on liberal side of the spectrum.

The real skinny...Why are we doing this? Why are we considering nominating a conservative Democrat without anything of particular value to offer a liberal?

[AP]

27. My question EXACTLY.

I guess we just have to keep asking it until more people understand it.

[ozone_man]

33. Being a Vermonter, but not knowing all the specifics,

I think Dean did what governors are supposed to do, i.e., attract business to the state that is appropriate. Apparently the means to allow this captive insurance industry operate in Vermont had been established long before Dean arrived on the scene. He did no doubt help set up alot of these business relationships.

I vaguely recall hearing that it was considered a good growth business for Vermont, one that was compatible with the limted infrastructure, etc. For example, heavy industry might not be suitable, requiring too much in the way of infrastructure, lax zoning and pollution requirements. Vermont has very strict zoning and environmental regulations, etc., so something like software and electronics (IBM), insurance industry, universities (UVM), hospitals, these are the largest employers in Vermont.

Since Dean took office, I believe the captive insurance industry, facilitated by Governor Richard Snelling, has yielded about $20M/year in revenue for the state. This helps reduce our taxes or, helps fund needed social programs.

I know most Dems don't want to see higher taxes on the middle class (especially not AP) and would probably like to see some of Dean's health care initiatives funded, like "Success by Six", so what exactly is your issue here?

[AP]

34. Dean didn't pass the law allowing the business. He did lower the tax rate

to attract the business (according to what I've read here).

Like I said elsewhere, every business lobbies the government for breaks, and you have to pick who you're going to help. You can't help them all. Who you help reveals a lot about a politician.

It's very interesting that Dean gave a break to an industry that helped Enron make money (and then Ernon ended up costing society way more money than it made...as does the insurance and deregulated energy industries generally).

Other governors, like Clinton, tried to give breaks to businesses that brought more value to society.

[ozone_man]

38. Sounds like Dean chose well.

I don't know how many insurance companies are doing business in Vermont, maybe 5 or 10? It provides jobs for Vermonters and taxes to take the burden off of our tax payers. That's good, right? I know you are against raising taxes on the back of the middle class, so I'm just poking fun at you.

I think it's great that Dean was able to keep more jobs from leaving the country and snagging this business for us. The problem we are facing now is exactly this, that jobs are being shipped to China, India, Mexico, anywhere that there might be cheaper labor.

IBM is our largest employer and has 6,500 employees, supporting manufacturing, engineering, etc. Dean as governor must negociate to keep business like IBM in Vermont. This is not easy, and we are balancing on a tight rope with IBM. They could shut the plant and relocate in NY. So, my point is that a governor must play a balance to attract appropriate business by reasonable means. Offering tax breaks is one of those means as is somnetimes offering infrastructure to enable a plant location.

You might have noticed that in today's paper, IBM says it is sending several thousand software jobs to India. This is exactly my point. What does that leave us? As president, I will count on Dean establishing incentives to keep business here and level the playing field in this "free trade" agreement to consider environmental and human rights issues, child labor, etc.

It sounds like the tax breaks Dean offered the captive insurance companies was a win for us, since we have the jobs and $20M in tax revenue per year. Dean is a smart business man I think.

[AP]

39. Didn't Dean already CHA on IBM? Didn't he say the tax breaks weren't worth

it considering they can just pick up and move?

It's one thing to attract business with sensible legislation and wealth middle class citizens and good infrastructure that helps all. It's another to transfer public wealth to private hands.

Enron? The insurance industry? 60% tax breaks? What do you think was happening in VT?

Do you want a president who knows how to build sustainable growth while looking after the best interests of a majority of American citizens? Or do you want the energy lobby's bitch as president?

[AP]

40. Why are Governors giving the insurance industry a competitve advantage

so that they can better rip us off?

The insurance industry has been making money hand over foot and continue to jack up rates. They don't need no stinking tax breaks!

You think Dean could have found a better industry to bend over backwards for?

It doesn't help that it was Enron's insurance company. (Are they even in business today? They should be in jail.)

[ozone_man]

41. These companies would be taking their business to the Caymans.

I suspect Enron was just one of several, how many I don't know, but you seem to be stuck on them. I think this was an Enron subsidiary in Vermont. I didn't hear about any wrong doings in Vermont, though we know that the parent company had many.

As I've said, I don't know the specifics and am not that motivated to research it, but it's the way business works in our capitalist system. From the perspective of a governor of rural state, you have to examine business options that offer jobs and revenue for the state. A small state like Vermont, like a small business, is able to attract or occupy business niches that are too small or overlooked by larger states as insignificant. I think that is what this captive insurance thing in Vermont is, a niche business situation. There are the Caymans and then there is Vermont, where do you want the jobs to go?

We have alot of small businesses up here, though sometimes they grow large, Ben & Jerry's, IDX (software), e.g. Dean supports small business and has plans at the national level to introduce incentives that will promote small business, offering more jobs, more return on investment. I am very much in favor of this.

[AP]

42. Tony Blair and Bill Clinton were pushing the Cayman's and other Tax Havens

to change their tax laws so that shit like this didn't happen. Bush shit-canned those plans.

Attracting these businesses is something you'd expect Republicans and libertarians to do, perhaps. It's not the kind of thing democrats do.

[ozone_man]

43. The legislation that allowed captive insurance companies

in VT was passed by a Republican Governor Snelling. Dean took over after he died in office.

From my perspective, most large business seems to be controlled by Republicans. I can't say what share Libertarians might have.

As I said before, that $20M a year in taxes and jobs sure helps us Vermonter's out, and I'd prefer to have jobs in Vermont instead of being shipped off shore. Didn't Bill Clinton have something to do with that? NAFTA? Seems to me that Dr. Dean, making use of ex-Governor Snelling's work, attracted jobs and revenues to help fund his health care initiatives like "Success by Six". He plans to take this and other health care programs to the national level. You're not against health care are you, and you do like the fact that Dean lowered taxes twice, right?

[blm]

26. Like Toby Moffett, one of his advisors?

I think he's keeping his dealings with the Koch brothers hidden. Which is absurd since the Koch brothers will gladly have given Rove the duplicate paperwork long ago. In fact, i wouldn't doubt they set up Dean knowing he was planning to run.

[AP]

29. Between being the CU governor and a willingness to be energy lobby's bitch

the Republicans probably knew they had a live one back in 2000.

Kills two birds with one stone: pull the Democratic party to the right on the issues that matter to them (giving tax money to BIG companies), and having a resume that keeps you from getting elected.