Dean...Whopper of the week award

[windansea]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2092515/

The Doctor indulges in some equivocation.

[robbedvoter]

1. I am sure it was for national security reasons!

See:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=913670&mesg_id=913670
;-)

[Exultant Democracy]

2. So where is the whopper?

I didn't see one. He didn't make any accusations himself; all he did was make a commentary on the hearsay and speculation that was going on in the absence of fact.

[AP]

4. Here:

Scott Spradling, WMUR-TV: Governor Dean, you had once stated that you thought it was possible that the president of the United States had been forewarned about the 9/11 terrorist attacks. You later said that you didn't really know.

A statement like that, don't you see the possibility of some Democrats being nervous about statements like that leading them to the conclusion that you are not right for being the next commander in chief?

Howard Dean: Well, in all due respect, I did not exactly state that.
...
Diane Rehm, WAMU (public) radio: Why do you think he's suppressing that report?

Dean: I don't know. There are many theories about it. The most interesting theory that I've heard so far, which is nothing more than a theory, I can't—think it can't be proved, is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis. Now, who knows what the real situation is, but the trouble is that by suppressing that kind of information, you lead to those kinds of theories, whether they have any truth to them or not, and then eventually they get repeated as fact. So I think the president is taking a great risk by suppressing the clear, the key information that needs to go to the Kean commission.

[bowens43]

7. I still don't see the 'whopper'

[AP]

16. He said he didn't say something he said.

Savy?

[stickdog]

27. No. He took exception with an inaccurate characterization

of what he said.

And he said nothing wrong or disputable to begin with.

The fact that you are trying to make points off this shows that your eyes are distinctly NOT on the prize.

[bearfartinthewoods]

50. i've heard that dean profited from keeping rush on a radio station

despite efforts to remove him, dean protected rush because rush's show was raking in the cash.

[Capn Sunshine]

61. did you hear that on Rush this morning?

millions did.

[bearfartinthewoods]

74. yes, i hoped to quote it to prove a point but it didn't work

[Scott Lee]

63. I've heard that Dean eats little kittens and pours salt on snails

That mean old guy.


Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean.

[stickdog]

26. They knew it or they blew it.

And that's no lie.

[Hep]

47. You don't get it?

Thw hopper is when he claimed to have invented the internet.

Wait, what year is this? WHo's clowning this time?

[NewJeffCT]

3. I'm not a Dean supporter

But, he clearly did not attribute that line of thinking to himself... I can see that he was implying that the White House stonewalling the investigation leads to conspiracy theories like that.

[AP]

5. The point of the question wasn't that he believed it.

It was that he was hurting his party's credibility by interjecting it into an answer about why "suppressing...information" can lead to credibility problems for the president.

The funny thing is that he has some first hand experience in suppressing information.

[AP]

8. Incidentally, the article points out that Dean did damage

to the legitimate argument that the Bush administration should have picked up the 9/11 clues before 9/11. By saying that president knew it was going to happen, he makes it harder to get people to understand the implications of the argument that the president should have known it was going to happen.

[Gringo]

9. So if Bush & company had scads of specific prior warning prior to 9-11

That wouldn't be a "legitimate" question? As far as I'm concerned, there seem to be a lot of unanswered questions that make me wonder whether Bush & co might even be involved somehow in the thing. His culpapbility, whether due to gross incompetence or deliberate inaction, is not in doubt.

[AP]

13. And Dean was reaching out to people like you (and me) when he said that.

And he may have been reaching a little farther, over your shoulder, to the guy who thinks Bush knew.

But the fact is, he's not going to win in 2004 if he goes around saying Bush knew. And, as the article says, he might be undermining his credibility on a discussion about, say, the intelligence failures.

I think the fact that Dean is now pretending that he never said that is evidence of how silly it was to even speculate.

[ozone_man]

51. He didn't say exactly what the interviewer said.

Simple as that. You have to read the full transcript to understand the context.

I think everyone here knows what Dean said, and I agree totally that it is a question that should be asked repeatedly of Bush. Why is he suppressing 911 information. Appointing Henry Kissinger to lead off the investigation was a dead give away that they were trying to suppress the investigation.

[AP]

53. If we all knew what Dean said, we wouldn't have a thread this long.

[windansea]

12. exactly (nt)

[Exultant Democracy]

17. Willy Brown's security wouldn't let him fly that morning

So someone did know something. I would hate to think that Willy Brown's security has better info then the NSA. This said it would not be right for Dean to make an outright accusation with evidence of a cover up, and in fact he made no accusations at all, all he did was report on "the wildest" accusation that he had heard so far.

[ruralpro]

33. cant prove

the allegation you just wrote. No one warned about anything. lets keep it to the facts.

[OneTwentyoNine]

45. Ashcroft wasn't warned not to fly commercial??

Are you claiming that no one in the Bush WH wasn't warned to stay off of commercial aircraft before 9/11?

David

[arcane1]

67. Brown has mentioned this openly

it's his word against yours...

and the news of Ashcroft being told not to fly commercial due to a "threat" is old news too

no speculation in these two items, they are documented

[JNelson6563]

23. You must be joking

Where did Dean say "president knew it was going to happen"?

Julie from Travis City, Mich.: nce we get you in the White House, would you please make sure that there is a thorough investigation of 9/11, and not—

Dean: Yes.

Julie:—stonewall it?

Dean: There is a report which the president is suppressing evidence for which is a thorough investigation of 9/11.

Diane Rehm, WAMU (public) radio: Why do you think he's suppressing that report?

Dean: I don't know. There are many theories about it. The most interesting theory that I've heard so far, which is nothing more than a theory, I can't—think it can't be proved, is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis. Now, who knows what the real situation is, but the trouble is that by suppressing that kind of information, you lead to those kinds of theories, whether they have any truth to them or not, and then eventually they get repeated as fact. So I think the president is taking a great risk by suppressing the clear, the key information that needs to go to the Kean commission.



He is clearly stating that theories are going around because of Team Bush secrecy. I cannot believe there is a person on this board who would criticize this or even go so far at to try to twist it (aka lie).

Julie

BTW, I am the Julie asking this question of Dean.

[windansea]

35. Hi Julie

I am glad you asked the question...but here is where the whopper, (actually double cheeseburger) lies...whether you believe in LIHOP or not...it's obvious Trippi doesn't think it will sell or Dean wouldn't have answered you the way he did.

Discussion. In answering Spradling at the New Hampshire debate, Dean failed to acknowledge his Diane Rehm Show appearance, in which he introduced the bizarre and irresponsible accusation that Bush got advance warning about 9/11 (ostensibly as an example of the kind of speculation Bush lends credence to by not cooperating with the Kean commission). Dean's denial that he said what Spradling said he said is false and dishonest if you take the Diane Rehm appearance into account. Spradling's summary of Dean's remarks was more than adequate, with the trivial caveat that Dean said then and there (and not "later") that he didn't know whether the rumor was true.

Instead of talking about the Diane Rehm Show appearance, Dean pretended, at the New Hampshire debate, that the subject first came up when he appeared on Fox News Sunday six days later:

[JNelson6563]

43. Hi Windinsea

I was asked on Fox "fair and balanced" News that—



—I was asked why I thought the president was withholding information, I think it was, or 9/11 or something like that. And I said, well, the most interesting theory that I heard, which I did not believe , was that the Saudis had tipped him off. ... I did not believe , and I made it clear on the Fox News show that I didn't believe that theory, but I had heard that. And there are going to be a lot of crazy theories that come out if the information is not given to the Kean commission as it should be.

It is obvious to me that the question he was asked on Faux was in direct response to Dean's comments to my question. It was his answer to my question that caused all the follow up questions.

I don't see which setting he cites, he says essentially the same thing each time. Do you think the only way he could be considered "honest" about it if he said "In response to a caller on the Dianne Rheam show I said this.......the next several days was a barrage of questions regarding Bush foreknowledge and my opinion of it based on my answer to that caller. One of those was Faux where I said......."

I see no dishonesty by Dean here but it does appear you are looking for a juice "there" when there is no "there" there. :shrug:

Julie

[windansea]

49. hi

I did not award him the whopper...Slate did.

Perhaps you should write to Timothy Noah and maybe he can clear it up for you, or maybe you can convince him to retract the whopper award.

[JNelson6563]

85. Not a bad idea

Perhaps he merely needs some enlightening? ;-)

Julie

[windansea]

89. go for it!

You have mucho credibility as an eyewitness!

B-)

[thebgrkng]

46. I feel like I should post here...(n/t)

[newyawker99]

76. Hi thebgrkng!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[windansea]

40. PS

i didn't write the article or award the whopper to Dean

Tim Noah at Slate did...they are hardly a conservative news site, just take a look at previous recipients.

[stickdog]

25. But Dean never said Bush knew. He said that if the White House keeps

suppressing evidence, a number of people will assume the worse.

Do you disagree?

[dsc]

6. Thank God for those trivial caveats

Discussion. In answering Spradling at the New Hampshire debate, Dean failed to acknowledge his Diane Rehm Show appearance, in which he introduced the bizarre and irresponsible accusation that Bush got advance warning about 9/11 (ostensibly as an example of the kind of speculation Bush lends credence to by not cooperating with the Kean commission). Dean's denial that he said what Spradling said he said is false and dishonest if you take the Diane Rehm appearance into account. Spradling's summary of Dean's remarks was more than adequate, with the trivial caveat that Dean said then and there (and not "later") that he didn't know whether the rumor was true.

Never mind that was the whole point of the question. Dean should have mentioned the Rehm appearence which he didn't. But the question was way more than trivially off. He made the same point on her show that he made on Fox. There is nothing trivial about that caveat.

[AP]

10. I think that part that you have to scratch your head over is that...

...when Dean left that Rehm interview, if his campaign has two brains to rub together, they should have berated him for saying that. That he said something else after that suggests that they did. Then to pretend that he didn't remember the Rehm show and the berating suggests that Dean thinks he might be able to erase the past just by saying it didn't happen. He must have remembered.

Or, maybe he really didn't remember what he said on the Diane Rehm show.

[windansea]

14. Of course he did

He's a really smart doctor remember?

[HuckleB]

11. I'm no fan of Burger King, but that ain't no Whopper.

It ain't even White Castle on the side. It's a whole lot of dead air.

Is the the best the "Stop Dean" "movement" can muster?

[windansea]

15. heh heh

very funny! I would call it a double cheese burger.

[AP]

18. If my candidate did something like that ONCE, I'd be sick to my stomach.

It amazes me that this isn't anything for Dean supporters, and it's never anything every time stuff like this comes up.

[HuckleB]

30. I doubt it.

I really do.

[AP]

37. The only thing remotely close for Edwards...

...was the Shelton thing, and I expressed my confusion at the time. I'm looking forward to the full story on this.

Other than that, I can't help it if Edwards isn't prone to saying things that are so antithetical to my democratic principles.

[stickdog]

34. What? He had the guts to take Bush to the task for stonewalling the 9/11

commission, they he had the smarts not to let the media twist his words around in a lame attempt to play "gotcha" on a bvery important issue.

Meanwhile, you are trying to use Dean's courage, intelligence and anti-Bush resolve to make points against him and for your pro-war, pro-Patriot Act candidate.

Learn something about 9/11:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/

Here's a good place to start:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html

[Jerseycoa]

19. I think Dean fumbled this ball a whole lot

Very clumsy. But, basically, he is making the same clumsily made statement each time. I guess the "whopper" is Dean's saying Fox News Sunday raised the issue, when this was six days after Dean first made the statement on Diane Rehm, Dec. 1. Surely it's not a great big whopper.

This is the important thing:

"Ironically, if Dean had answered Rehm's question more carefully, he could have stated truthfully and non-hysterically that the Bush administration did receive various hints prior to 9/11 that something was afoot."

It's more about him running his mouth incautiously than anything, I think.


:dem:

[stickdog]

22. 9/11 & Bush = No Truth Allowed

The corporate media has been enforcing this maxim without exception. This is just another example.

[stickdog]

20. How dare Dean discuss 9/11 and then insist that his true statements be

characterized correctly.

[HuckleB]

31. It is terrible.

And shocking!

It's just SHOCKING!

[JackRiddler]

21. You people are amazing!

Finally someone shows the balls to question Bush on the ongoing 9/11 coverup. Some of you condemn him obviously without even knowing the facts - Bush got multiple and specific warnings from many foreign and U.S. intel services, and certainly acted suspiciously on the day itself - while others want to compare the two years of obstruction of the 9/11 investigations with Dean's wanting to keep his earth-shaking Vermont records secret.

You all should be grateful to Dean! And I don't say this as a supporter of him, but as a supporter of 9/11 truth disclosure!

[windansea]

24. sorry but no

having balls is sticking by your statements.

Dean backed down on the original statement and also tried to further distance himself from it by saying it happened on Fox news.

[mzmolly]

28. Dean is not an idiot, he's playing the game in the manner it has to be

played. The man is brilliant, and while his sly approach is lost on some, I fully appreciate it.

[windansea]

39. The game he's playing is with his supporters

apparently this "sly" approach is lost on you.

[mzmolly]

41. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. I know Howard Dean and am familiar with his positions..

He's going to be the nominee 'get used to it'...

[windansea]

52. ok then

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/SaddamCaptured/main.asp

heh heh

[mzmolly]

56. ok then

heh heh

[stickdog]

32. No. He took issue with the questioner's characterization of what he said.

And that was intelligent. Don't let somebody put inaccurate words in your mouth.

[JNelson6563]

86. This has been dispelled

in my post above.

Me thinks you realize the twisting here and are participating. tsk tsk

Julie

[AP]

29. If he has balls, why'd he lie and say he didn't say it?

?

[JackRiddler]

36. He did say it on FOX...

After the Rehm show, FOX put the question to him in a subsequent appearance and he stuck to his guns, as he did in the debate. Where do you see any discrepancy.

AND WHO CARES?

This isn't about Dean, it's about the 9/11 coverup!

Bush is the one who is hiding foreknowledge and intentionally allowing the attacks to go ahead, killing 3,000 Americans so that his crew could start the wars they had already planned and prepared in advance of Sept. 11 and institute the police-state and extreme right-wing policies at home.

[AP]

38. see post 35.

And it's getting to be quite a cliche to say that Dean's mistakes aren't about Dean. This isn't about Bush hiding anything. It's about whether dean has the character, honesty, intelligence, sayv and foresight to be president.

[mzmolly]

42. The answer is a resounding YES!

Character, Honesty, INTELLIGENCE, Savy, and foresight... all rolled up into one "feisty little bastard" ~ credit Rummy/TP for that one. ;)

[OneTwentyoNine]

44. agreed.....

All I'm getting is that Dean merely put the bug in peoples ears that YES Bush is stonewalling a full investigation of 9/11 and YES there is a theory that Bush LIHOP--BUT Dean doesn't believe the theory without more proof.

This is a whopper of a lie?? Shit,I'm glad he has the GUTS to at least mention that he's not going lockstep with Bush and his version of 9/11

From the WHOPPER report:

"Dean's denial that he said what Spradling said he said is false and dishonest if you take the Diane Rehm appearance into account."

What? Man,whatever......

David

[Jerseycoa]

65. I'm not grateful

Because Dean is in no way the first candidate to take Bush on in terms of 9/11, although I am happy when any candidate does it. Bob Graham questioned this issue unendingly before and during his presidential campaign, and since. Wes Clark has been, too. Finally, "somebody showing the balls" is bullshit. However, I do think this "whopper" is bullshit, too.

[Zomby Woof]

48. doesn't compare to this Whopper

[Beaker]

54. This Weak with george snufflophegus had a nice Dean clip on Sunday-

clip 1-
interview between the dr. and the back-stabber-
George: "...but you were a strong supporter of NAFTA..."

Dean: "...I don't know where you get that from George, I never said that I was a strong supporter of NAFTA..."(words to that effect, i don't recall exact quote)

cut to clip 2:
(unidentified clip of dr. dean, perhaps 6-8 years old or more)
Dean:"...I was a strong supporter of NAFTA"

Get used to it, if Dean gets the nomination, karl rove will make sure it's on in prime time 5 times a night, 7 days a week.

[AP]

55. Why does Dean KEEP doing this.

They must have a rule: "your record is so bad, Governor. There's no point in defending it. Just say what you know people want to hear, and we'll use the campaign money, the internet, and the willingness of the media to hold off on destroying you until AFTER you're nominated to fight the truth." Ie, we'll worry about the truth later. Let's win the nomination now.

[blm]

60. That's what I see - 40 times a day EVERY day for weeks.

I will even be too disgusted to say "I told you so."

[MGKrebs]

66. Well, here's the exact quote for you:

After Stephanopoulos began a question by saying that Dean had been a "strong supporter of NAFTA," the former governor testily cut him off: "Where do you get the 'I'm a strong supporter of NAFTA?' I didn't do anything about it. I didn't vote on it. I didn't march down the street supporting it. I wrote a letter supporting it."

[Beaker]

71. is that the full quote from the original interview?

I don't remember them including the stuff he said past ""Where do you get the 'I'm a strong supporter of NAFTA?'" in yesterday's clip...it seemed like they went from him saying that, to the clip of him saying "I was a strong supporter of NAFTA".
It was actually pretty funny when they did it...in a sad, stomach-wrenching kind of way.

[MGKrebs]

73. It's not the full quote of the whole interview.

This is the only place I could find even that much.

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=708

[MGKrebs]

57. This is pitiful.

I'm not even sure what the "issue" is, but I'll try anyway.

Dean apparently never stated (Spradlings word) "I think it's possible that the the POTUS had been forewarned.." etc. Which is what Spradling alleged.

Dean brings up an example of how rumors and conspiracies can get out of control if information is witheld, and Spradling stretched that into a statement that Dean "stated" that it was "possible" that Bush knew.

Now, maybe Dean does believe it is possible. After all, many things are possible. But, HE NEVER STATED THAT HE THOUGHT IT WAS POSSIBLE. If any candidate were to deny that they thought it was "possible", would you believe them?
News hack: Sir, is it possible that the POTUS had advance warning of 9/11?
Candidate X: No. Not possible. Actually, it's IMPOSSIBLE. Couldn't happen.

Of course it's POSSIBLE, if it's not impossible. Stupid semantical game. But Dean never "stated" what the guy said he stated. He said he didn't know. Which may mean the same thing, but the question was loaded and inaccurate and deserved challenge.

[AP]

62. Repeating what's above: Dean not accused of BELIEVING conspiracy theory

Dean was asked if he thought that, because he REPEATED the theory (even without endorsing it), should Dems be justifiably worried about his candidacy.

The correct answer is: I wasn't saying that there was conspiracy. I was just saying that it's one logical conclusion from Bush's actions. (Is it?)

Instead Dean said, "I never said that."

He's going to hide behind the argument that he "heard" the accusation that he believed it, and he's denying that. But that's not going to fly. Either he's trying to erase the past, or he has bad listening skills. Which is it?

Furthermore, does Dean think that it's OK for people to develop conspiracy theories about what's hidden in his governor's records?

[Beaker]

69. just like gore never said he invented the internet...

or that he and tipper were the inspiration for "Love Story"...and look how that turned out.

[magnoliamouth]

80. GORE NEVER SAID HE INVENTED THE INTERNET

Newsflash! Gore never actually said that.

This is another case of some half-wit reporter mischaraterizing something someone (i.e. Gore or Dean) says and then people take that mischaracterization as FACT and it's repeated over and over.

You think I'm wrong? Then reply to THIS post with Gore's EXACT quote and where you find it.

[TrueAmerican]

58. Looks like Dean is getting some of that Al Gore love

He's going to be painted as a fabricator, just like Gore was. One of many attack angles that Rove is waiting to launch.

[dajabr]

59. Hey, anybody seen sandnsea?

I thought for sure they would be posting to this thread.

:shrug:

[Scott Lee]

64. I would guess they have transformed to "windnsea"

Thereby attempting to create the perception that ADJHS is growing.

[windansea]

79. mystery shopper

just testing your response times

[Le Taz Hot]

68. Hmmm....

windnsea . . . seems like I've seen another DUer with a VERY similar name --- sand something -- who is also a chronic Dean basher. I guess Skinner's numerous pleas to police oneself once again, goes unheeded. Some people need to grow the f*** up.

[arcane1]

70. funny... Bush HIDES the truth of the matter

and "certain" people want to make it all about Dean, as if Dean's mere mentioning of the scandal is somehow bigger than the scandal itself!

:crazy:


you summed it up nicely, Taz- GTFU :toast:

[AP]

72. I don't understand how sandnsea and windansea is an issue.

If they're the same, that was a pretty thinly veiled attempt to hide behind two idenitities.

On the other hand, anyone can sign up with any name they chose, so long as it hasn't been taken already. How could sandnsea be blamed if someone else took a similar name.

On the, uhm, third hand, I think we all operate under the implicit awareness that anyone -- Dean supporters, Kerry supporters, or Edwards supporters -- could have multiple screen names. This is an ANONYMOUS forum for 99.9% of the posters. Furthermore, I'm not sure what it says about credibility.

[arcane1]

75. not really an issue to me...

I could drive myself mad trying to figure out who is who... I was merely commenting on the odd sense of importance placed on Dean's remarks, compared to the near-avoidance of what he was remarking about

windnsea is on my shit list anyway, I don't care much who he/she/it might be in some other guise.

[windansea]

77. wow!

feels great to be part of a conspiracy theory!

windansea is a beach...any similarities between my posts and those of sandnsea are probably based in similar perceptions

can't stand the heat? get out of the kitchen!

[sandnsea]

84. And go to the beach!

Mine's in Oregon, where's yours?

(And if the rest of you think I'm nuts enough to carry on a conversation with myself, well then blech all over ya')

[windansea]

87. california...san diego

howdy secret identity!

[hippywife]

78. Notice this little bit

Dean: I don't know. There are many theories about it. The most interesting theory that I've heard so far, which is nothing more than a theory, I can't—think it can't be proved, is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis.

He almost, almost said "I can't prove it."

[magnoliamouth]

82. NO, NO, NO!

Hippywife, YOU say he almost said that.

But who are you to KNOW what he was thinking or "almost said?"

[AP]

88. It would be interesting to hear it live...

...but that he was switching from an active tense to a passive tense isn't a big stretch of the imagination.

It's a weasely way for a speaker not to take responsibility for what he or she is saying.

[Fahrenheit911]

81. I want to apoligise

I want to say sorry for the behaviour of some Clark supporters..
especially the ones who orchestrated the ABD crap..

that.. and ted "f*ckingmoron" Koppel have nearly got me switching to Dean out of principle..

but I am staying with Clark because I sincerely believe he has the best chance to win.. and I hope that Gen. Clark will pick dean as his VP if he does get the nomination,,

[DemDogs]

83. Not even news any more -- he does it so often

"The Doctor indulges in some equivocation" is an every day occurrence and is the reason we will get beaten to a pulp if we nominate him. And now he has aligned himself with Gore, in case anyone had missed the Great Equivocator connection. Geez.