Enlisting Democrats to organize against a Democratic candidate is wrong

[KaraokeKarlton]

This kind of behavior invalidates the democratic process and renders the outcome of the election both inaccurate and meaningless. The act of pressuring supporters of many candidates to unite against one is mutiny against democracy as well as sabotage of our electoral system.

It is disturbing that anyone would promote, encourage, endorse or enable this kind of behavior.

Such discussions here have proven time and again to do one thing and one thing only...cause division among the members of this site and numerous deleted messages and incivility. Is this really what we, as a group, want to promote? I would hope not.

If you agree that division and incivility is not what you wish to partake in on this site, I ask you to post your oath on this thread to not post on any thread that seeks to undermine democracy by uniting against any of our presidential candidates.

Let me be the first...

I vow, here and now, not to engage in sabotage of the democratic process by contributing to discussions seeking to organize against any candidate.

[GainesT1958]

1. The only candidates I ever organize against...

Have an "R" beside their name...period.

B-)

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. I'm not even a Democrat, I'm an Independent

and I find this type of behavior to be downright disturbing. I just can't believe it's being allowed here.

:shrug:

[Melinda]

2. AFAIC, they are NOT Democrats, they're operatives

It doesn't take a math degree to figure that out. :eyes:

*On edit - Pledged over and over, and will so pledge again. :hug:

[Padraig18]

4. We're ALL trying to stop some candiate in the primaries.

I'm a Dean supporter, so I'm trying to prevent all the other 8 candidates from getting the nomination. If certain people think they can successfully organize a united effort to stop Gov. Dean and unify everyone else's supporters behind a single candidate, I say "Have at it, folks!". It will be amusing bordering on madcap hilarity to watch it almost instantly turn cannibalistic, as soon as the supporters of 7 of those 8 realize it's not THEIR candidate everyone plans on supporting! :P

I think this is a sure way to ensure that Gov. Dean gains the nomination, frankly.

[unfrigginreal]

5. At the beginning of the 2004 Presidential campaign

Skinner posted here that organizing against candidates would not be allowed. Apparently something has changed...can't imagine what that something is.

[KaraokeKarlton]

8. I don't believe that Skinner is seeing this

And I am hoping that as soon as he does that he puts an end to it.

[sandnsea]

20. Only Democrats allowed

Seems like that was also said. That people who identify themselves as Green or whatever wouldn't be allowed to get into the primary debates, particularly post against candidates. I don't know exactly where that went either.

[JNelson6563]

6. Most shocking of all it goes on at DU

I got a warning for telling some defeatist yesterday how clueless they were for predicting the loss of '04 (and tlling why they were wrong).

But this slop stands at DU. There's some real healthy behavior for the Democratic Party.

I grow more disgusted daily.

Julie

[TLM]

Yeah I got a warning and mod message today...

Because I asked someone who said Dean was AGAINST civil unions why they were lying... yet efforts to organize against Dean are perfectly OK on DU.

If this is the shit donations to DU help fund... I may have to send that money to Dean next time instead of DU.

[TexasPatriot]

7. the problem as i see it

is we need a way to post a 'contrast' between candidate X and candidate Y without eliciting the:
'no'
'yes'
'no'
'shut up'
'no you shut up'

responses. If someone has a concern that Clark seems a bit too much like a republican, they need to be able to say it.

I have a suggestion.

We have our daily positive thread.

How about we have a daily 'defend your candidate' thread where we confine the negativity. We could have special 'defend your candidate special edition' threads for Lieberman for when he says things like what he said about Dean yesterday morning.

We need to be able to disagree - that's not the issue - we just need to be adults about it when there are people in the room who dont agree with you.

[bpilgrim]

9. Democratic Underground may not be used for political organizing activity

"Democratic Underground may not be used for political organizing activity by supporters of any political party other than the Democratic party."

from the 'RULES'

thankfully the thread was finally locked.

peace

[bearfartinthewoods]

23. did you read what Elad said?

it was locked because people were breaking the rules. he specificly said the post did not violate any rules. i'm glad, as i intend to post a similar idea myself soon.

[KaraokeKarlton]

30. And I'm sure George Bush will thank you, too

n/t

[bearfartinthewoods]

33. don't you get bored with that one liner?

the dean camp really should update their retort handouts to include original thinking. oh...i guess that's an oxymoran.

clue...non support of dean does not make one a republican or mean one is working for bush. on the other hand, slavish devotion to a candidate that cannot win in the general is bush's wet dream.

i'm sure he's very happy with all the nightime erotica that spews from the dean campaign repressive tactics. everytime an issue is raised about dean and not addressed in any meaningful manner it's got to be giving him sweet dreams because that leaves the issue open like a cancerous sore, all ready for him to pick at in the general.

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. nope, because it's the first time I've used it

I didn't call you a republican or say you are working for Bush.

I simply implied that efforts to sabotage the democratic nomination process causes division within the party, hard feelings, resentment and can lead to people leaving the party, voting third party or just staying home, which inevitably helps Bush.

[jmaier]

10. The only legitimate

stop "Candidate X" movement is to pick your own "Candidate Y" and get off your ass and donate, canvass, letter write, etc. for the candidate of your choice.

This kind of silly movement is out of a freeper special forces handbook.

[bearfartinthewoods]

36. and what handbook did you pull that proclamation from?

by what right do you get to invalidate anyone's style of voicing their political opinion? let me guess...this is your first primary season?

[alwynsw]

11. How is it wrong?

We all have our preferred candidate. Part of the process is debating the issues. The other part is using any legal means to get our candidate elected.

In order for any candidate to win, his/her competitors must be stopped - stopped short of the goal of receiving the most votes.

Debate for or against ant candidate is a good thing. I'll grant that "stop movements" are negative tactics, but they are allowable in the process.

If stopping an opposing party's candidate is legitimate, it logically follows that stoping a competing candidate within one's own party must be legitimate as well.

We may not like it, but that's a part of how the electoral process in a republic, whose representatives are elected through a democratic process works.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. Because organizing against someone in your own party

is essentially like taking a big fat dump on your fellow democrats who happen to support and believe in the person you're organizing against. It is divisive and leads to nothing good.

[TexasPatriot]

15. i promise

i'll never take a 'big fat dump' on any other democratic candidate
(except Lieberman... i'm thinking of talking to pay-per-view on that one)

[MaineDem]

19. Sorry but I disagree with your premise

This is a primary fight. That means the opponents are all Democrats. That's what happens in a Democratic primary. Until we get to Boston in July and have an actual nominated candidate there is going to be infighting in the Democratic ranks. It's SOP for a primary.

Doesn't anyone remember this happening before?

[bearfartinthewoods]

24. did you voice this opinion to dean and al when they organized

to tell the rest of the candidates and their supporters to stand down?

just what in the hell do you think that was all about but an attempt to stop the other candidates? why is it okay for them to do it but not for people to organize in defense?

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. It was a freaking endorsement

are you denouncing all other endorsements too, or just this one? I'm sure you'd be on this same kick if Gore endorsed your candidate. :eyes:

[bearfartinthewoods]

31. do not be sure.

if you look back in the old DU you will see me post against the idea of a draft gore movement, even though i supported gore as a candidate.

i objected to ANY candidate being crowned as the nominee without the full BENEFIT of a campaign season. i am fully convinced that the problems that surfaced in the gore campaign would have surfaced and been likely corrected had their been a vibrant campaign battle.

we don't do coronations. republicans do coronations.

[aquart]

18. You win by getting your issues out there.

You win by having the stand the voters prefer. And getting it heard.

Only a fascist wins by "stopping" the opposition.

"Allowable in the process"? What foul stinking process is that? Those are ratfucking Nixonian ethics.

Have I seen Democrats pull this crap? Yeah. I was working as a student for Lindsay, a silk stocking Republican running as an independent with renegade Democratic support. And I saw a group of thugs come in on election night singing Deutchland Uber Alles and bragging about giving diabetes to the opponent's (Procaccino, the machine Democrat) sound trucks. I was really young and they had to explain about pouring sugar in a gas tank. The man who organized those punks later ran for office in his own right on the Democratic ticket. Didn't get my vote. Lost.

Scum is scum no matter what the party affiliation and stopping the other guy's voice is a tactic of scum.

[Cocoa]

12. so vote for Dean already

why don't Dean supporters drop the persecution complex, just vote for him, he's a perfectly good candidate, no excessive drama is necessary, it puzzles me why so much of it surrounds Dean.

[northernsoul]

13. the only candidate I'm organizing against is BUSH

who's with me?

This "Stop Whoever" thing is effing ridiculous, people.

[Gringo]

16. Hear, Hear

I never liked Gephardt, but even when he was the "front-runner", I didn't make a point of spending a ton of space bashing him. I'm for Dean right now. I could easily switch to the Kerry or Clark camps, but only if they show me something to vote FOR, instead of just saying "don't vote for Dean because XYZ"

F-ing sick of it.

I still like and admire Kerry and Clark, but some of their supporters...

[Blitz]

17. This kind of behavior IS the democratic process

And the fact that people (mostly supporters of the current frontrunner, incidentally) are trying to censor it is both absurd and undemocratic.

If two or more candidates are running for a single position, they have two basic, legitimate ways to campaign. They can talk about their own strengths and they can bring up their opponents' weaknesses and deficiencies. Both approaches are perfectly valid and ethical. Moreover, virtually no serious political campaign is run without using a balance of both methods. What you and those that support you are trying to do is prevent people from using the second legitimate, ethical tactic. By so doing, you seek to dull the impact of their campaigns. It's the political equivalent of trying to sit on your lead and milk the clock.

For DU to censor its members in the fashion that you advocate would be, as I said, absurd and unsemocratic. I hope and trust that the Administratots will choose not to follow that path.

[Jerseycoa]

21. Banging my head on the table

Why is it nobody is getting this? I remember the other day somebody saying there are too many people here who have never lived through a primary and don't know how it works. Could this be the problem?

[KaraokeKarlton]

22. Well, if it's common practice to offend and alienate

the supporters of the frontrunner it's no wonder so many deomcrats have gone green or just stopped giving a damn.

[bearfartinthewoods]

27. i'm praying that is the case!

and i'm a freaking agnostic! the alternatives are too horrible to consider. either there really is koolaid and all these people are brainwashed or they don't give a fuck about democracy.


what happened this morning was not democracy, it was mob rule. it was the pubbies breaking into the couthouse to force their way onto the electorate.

[Gman]

25. Where did the idea start that campaigning against a candidate is bad?

There's nothing wrong with campaigning against a candidate in the primary. No one has won the primaries the last time I looked. No one is "the one". Not one vote has been cast in the primaries. The primaries are an election of sorts. There's absolutley nothing wrong with campaigning for your candidate and even saying "stop Dean or Kerry or Lieberman or whoever". Nothing. It's simply politics as usual, unless someone's new to politics.

Hell, JFK's made his ill fated trip to Texas in November 63 for the purpose of attempting to mend the huge rift in the party between the conservatives and the liberals.

It's supposed to be this way then everyone comes together in NOvember.

Get real, people.

[diamondsoul]

28. Except that if you piss people

off enough they DON'T "come together in November". It's called anger, disgust and spite and some people are less resistant to them than others.

[Gman]

37. History has shown that those people that don't come together

in November are usually no more than opportunists and not really members of the Democratic party. At best, they're political mercenaries, at worst they're cry babies that couldn't be counted on anyway.

[bearfartinthewoods]

29. your are aware, i hope that the very nature of any candidates campaign

is an organization created to stop other candidates from winning a campaign? you do understand that don't you?

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. no, the nature is to PROMOTE themselves as a candidate

because that's what makes people want to vote for you.

[Gman]

38. In an ideal, beautiful,, everything is so wonderful world,

yes.

This is the real world and this is called hardball politics.

[Blitz]

39. They're not running for homecoming queen

or Miss Congeniality. If a candidate for President of The United States of America has flaws that are relevant to the position, who should point that out if not his or her opponents and their supporters? Or do you think it's better that the electorate learn of a candidate's shortcomings after they've moved into the White House?

Your candidate is going to take some hits. You better get used to it because this primary is going to look like a pillow fight in about nine months.

[Julien Sorel]

35. How's this?

I vow, here and now, to fully engage in the democratic process, and that process includes expressing my opinion that certain candidates are not fit to be the standard bearer for this party I have been supporting for more than three decades, and will do that party damage should one of them become the nominee. I will donate money and time to work against those candidates, and believe that failure to do so would be, not only undemocratic, but not in my own best interests, and repugnant to the very things that have made me a Democratic Party supporter in the first place.