Is Pakistan a friend or foe?

[_Jumper_]

Has Musharraf made any serious efforts to reduce the influence of Islamic extremists in this moderate Muslim nation?

[ACK]

1. foe we will have to deal with him pulling a nutter on his neighbors later

He has thrown us a couple of Al Qaeda guys but he is a military dictator and we do not have a great track record with picking reliable muslim dictators to support.

[Minstrel Boy]

2. that depends - a friend or a foe to whom?

To the American government: yes. Musharraf is a valuable strongman in the region and a Muslim face for the "war on terror." Plus, the Pakistani ISI is the CIA's proxy in Central Asia.

To the American people: no. Pakistani al Qaeda were airlifted to safety from Afghanstan to spare Musharraf the embarassment of their capture. The ISI and al Qaeda have sinister linkages. And it was reported in The Guardian and Asia Times that Musharraf won a concession from Bush that bin Laden not be captured in Tora Bora, but be allowed to escape to Pakistan's tribal lands, where he's under virtual house arrest.

[_Jumper_]

3. To the American people

Do you a link about the articles about the Bush/Musharraf deal regarding Bin Laden?

[Bombtrack]

5. It's not quite that simple

Pakistan is a deeply corrupted government, it has been for centuries under various rules. If you read "the future of freedom" by Fareed Zakaria, he seems to think Musharreff is a genuine leader trying to reform his backward country for the better, but he doesn't quite have the resources to do it.

And as far as the ISI being a CIA proxy, that isn't really the case. The ISI, is has come to light more and more recently, has been deeply overtaken in certain sectors of it, by anti-west jihadists, because mostly, in the muslim world, islam is a bussiness, it's where the money is.
And also, while the ISI and the CIA have shared information, the Indian goverment and Indian intelligence services are far more friendly to the US, and as most people know these nations are bitter enemies.

Pakistan, atleast indirectly, supports anti-indian terrorism. India is far, far less involved with that sort of thing

[blondeatlast]

12. Clear and concise reply, thanks. Also, keep in mind that

Musharif is treading a very fine line between being friendly to the West (wghich he wants to be) and not pissing off Al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, etc.

People don't realize what a trouble spot this part of the world could become. No winners and losers between Pakistan and India, and they both have nukes and are more than willing to use them against each other.

In a few years, we may see a second I/P forum--just wait.

My husband is an Indian national and a lapsed Hindu, so we watch things very closely.

[lyonn]

4. best hope we have in that country?

Don't know much about the inner workings of Pakistan except they have nukes and someone tried to kill Musharraf (Could it be because he is helping us?) Better to have him in charge than an unknown. I hear it is hard to control all the factions in that country.

[Bombtrack]

7. right

it's really the epitamy of a fucked up country.

I'm an international relations minor, and I think that's the best way to put it

Musharreff is probably better than 99 percent of his opposition in the pakistani political world

[_Jumper_]

11. You're right. It is a joke.

It is a shame it split from India due to religion. India is getting its act together as Pakistan continues to take steps backwards.

The fundies in Pakistan never received more than 10% of the vote until 2002. They now control two of Pakistan's four provinces, albeit the two small ones. It is a moderate nation but the fundies are becoming increasingly more powerful, in large part due to Saudi Arabia's exportation of fundie, intolerant Islam.

[_Jumper_]

8. What about Benzair Bhutto?

She was going to attempt a raid to capture Bin Laden but her government was toppled right before it was to take place.

[blondeatlast]

13. Right--how quickly we forget.

She was no great shakes, but I think she was better than Musharif.

[Kamika]

6. Pakistan is like an exact copy of Iraq

We are best buddies with them cuz they help us against another islamic country.. lol

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

9. Foe of America, Friend to Bush

Isn't that the way it usually is?

[evil_orange_cat]

10. Musharraf is US-friendly, but extremists exist in great numbers...

Musharraf was also the victim of an assassination attempt last Sunday. Extremists in that country are trying to kill him and take over the country. If that happens, watch out... Pakistan has the bomb, and India won't stand for an extremist government with nukes... neither will Israel. Odds are, there will be a nuclear confrontation in that region with 5 years. The only thing keeping it stable is Musharraf's oppressive military regime. hmm.. sounds familiar eh?

[blondeatlast]

14. Assassination attempt? Do you have a good link?

That really scares me--I knew something bad was coming when the Northern Alliance leader was assassinated. Two days later, 9/11.

Egads.

Edit: found this from Radio Free Europe:

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/12/15122003171433.asp

Edit 2: from the article:

"Roy says he does not feel that the capture by U.S. forces in Iraq of ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein will change the balance of forces in Pakistan. "There is a strong anti-American feeling in Pakistan, but Saddam Hussein is not an Islamic hero, you know, I would say the religious extremists are closer to bin Laden than to Saddam Hussein," he said."


Everyone, sleep tight!

[_Jumper_]

17. Here is a link to an article about the reaction to it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3319497.stm

[evil_orange_cat]

18. it was on BBConline on Sunday...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3319497.stm

enjoy! :D

[Cat Atomic]

15. He was General Musharraf on September 10th. Everyone

started calling him "president" after 9-11. Funny, that.

We have always been at war with East Asia, you know.

[dajabr]

16. FWIW...

Pakistani_ISI_and_9/11

“Armitage, who had spent some years of his career in the CIA/DIA and holds the highest Pakistani civil decoration that could be awarded to a foreigner for his role during the Afghan war of the 1980s, has a large circle of friends in the Pakistani military & the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Directorate.” - - SARPA News Agency



Summary: It is a matter of public record that the Pakistani intelligence agency (ISI) and the CIA have very close ties. Over the last two decades the two agencies worked together continuously in such activities as intelligence gathering, covert funding, and covert operations (which included drug smuggling). They worked together to train, fund, and arm the Mujaheddin forces that expelled the Soviets in the ‘80s. And in the late ‘90s, they worked together to help the Taliban consolidate power in Afghanistan.

But beyond these well-known facts, there is an abundance of evidence suggesting that the ISI funded the 9-11 terrorists attacks. This is extremely disturbing considering that several senior officials within the U.S. intelligence establishment are very close to officials in the Pakistan intelligence agency. Even more upsetting is the fact that these U.S. officials were meeting with their ISI counterparts both before and after the 9-11 terrorist attacks.

More: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/sept11/isicia.html

[Bombtrack]

20. that website, while very professional, is very non objective

I have read some of it before, but I think it shouldn't be taken as gospel by any discriminating reader. It doesn't help it's case by linking to the most extreme anti-american and anti-israel crap and just "out there" material.

[Dehumanizer]

19. Friend.

People must judge Musharaff in the context of his position. He is balancing his desire to become friendly with the US with a desire to calm down the vocal minority of rising anti-American extremism in his own country. In doing so, the man has a lot of detractors on both sides.

This is a nuclear-capable country that has a minority looking to shake the stability of the nation in their fundamentalist favor. That cannot happen. With Musharaff, we know what to expect. He's the best bet to not only meet American interests, but also progress the nation itself for the better (although, considering this is a military dictator we're talking about, I use that last term VERY lightly).