Anyone who thinks Dean will be weak on foreign policy

[KaraokeKarlton]

Should tune in to C-Span in a little bit and catch the replay of his foreign policy speech. Keep in mind if you listen to this that Dean writes all of his own speeches himself. No speechwriters do this for him. The most "help" he gets is letting someone else read it and tell him if he should change some wording here or there. But the thoughts, ideas and agenda are all entirely his. Anyone who watches should definitely check out his responses to the Question and Answer period after the speech. He was absolutely brilliant on the Middle East. He hit it out of the park with the bases loaded on this one.

[PSR40004]

1. Yes

As a leaning to Dean supporter I'm worried about the guy, this is going to be a big weakness with Dean and one reason I'm not 100% behind him... Stop me before I say it but lieberman sounds alot mmore presidental as of late on the subject :)

[thebigidea]

3. he sounds beyond presidential... lieberman sounds SEXY

he is out and out EROTIC. I just start panting when he hear his siren voice.

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. Lieberman and sexy are not two words I'd use in the same sentence

unless "is not" divided them, but to each his own. :shrug:

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. Tune in to CSpan if you can and listen to the speech

I'm confident you'll be impressed. As a Vermonter who lived under Dean I'll tell you he's a damn good and honest politician, and those are rare. He did a great job here and has widespread support from all along the political map here.

[SonofMass]

57. Lived under Dean????

Hmmmmm............

[Nicholas_J]

61. A really unacceptable excuse

for claiming to be expert at what Dean really did as governor.

By and large most of the criticism about Dean in Vermont comes not from Vermont Republicans, but Vermont Democrats, and Vermont Progressives. And the old line that there is something more left about Vermont Democrats and Progressives so Dean is best just does not wash either:

Even Dean's longest supporter and advisor, particularly in the fiscal area had this to say about Dean:

"The joke among a lot of Vermont Republicans was that they didn't need to run anyone for governor because they basically had one in office already," said Harlan Sylvester, a conservative Democratic stockbroker and longtime adviser to Dean.

(St. Petersburg Times, July 6, 2003)

While Vermont Republicans themself indicate that the same attitude about Dean was common in Vermont:

In Vermont, said John McClaughry, Dean was such a centrist that some in his own party considered him "a Republican in drag." McClaughry, a Republican who heads the Ethan Allen Institute, a public policy think tank in Kirby, Vt., said: "A lot of people in Vermont look at Howard Dean today and they don't see the Howard Dean who was governor. He has reshaped himself to appeal to a faction of the Democratic constituency." (Los Angeles Times, June 1, 2003)

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/DVNS_Howard-Dean.htm

Other Democrats indicate that it was Deans extreme conservatism that dmamged the Vermont Democratic Party, causing many Democrats to abandon the Democratic Party and join the Progressives, making the Vermont Progressive Party the single most powerful third Party in the Nation. Out of the 8,000 elected state legislator in the U.S. only eight are third party candidates, four of them are in Vermont.


Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer



Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee...


"Certainly the Democratic caucus was never 100 percent behind him and where there were differences, it was around how progressive or how moderate he was," Chard said.

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative," Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may_03/may_19/news/reg_vt0519a.asp

All of these statements come from Vermonters as well.

But as usual, we always get to here the "I live in Vermont" so I know that this stuff aboiut Dean is not true.

It seems that only those Vermonters who live in Vermont jhave the real picture of Howard Dean. Not his oldest supporters, not those who know him best, not those who worked with him daily, not those who he himself appointed to Vermont government boards.

[KaraokeKarlton]

63. If Vermont's Democratic politicians hate Dean so bad

Why did all of them endorse him?

[janx]

25. And you sound...

REALLY CONVINCING!

har har.

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. plus, what was the story on dean this AM?

wasit the contents of the speech or his "theory re bush and 9/11"

i keep asking how many newscycles we can afford to lose to his foot in mouth syndrome....

[Egnever]

65. hah interesting perspective

You see the "theory" as negative I see it as positive. Not only does it keep Dean in the news. It brings back to the news the questions surrounding 9-11. Sure the press can pretend its snearing but they know where the truth is on this one.

Bush did have prior knowledge, maybe not so far as someone saying this will happen on 9-11 at this time at these buildings but the tea leaves were certainly there to be read. The only real question is how many tea leaves were there.

If the press gets to snear at Dean over this thats fine by me as long as it brings the question back to the news. Dean seems to have broad shoulders I am sure he can take the snears.

As has been proven time and again the press snears and we give him cash :)

Keep fighting those bastards Doc!

[WiseMen]

69. The issue is CREDIBILITY. Bush is Tough but INCOMPETENT.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH. That should be all the argument needed for
a candidate with experience and credentials in national security.

Bush had no experience. WE ARE SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES!!!

[PSR40004]

2. Yes

As a leaning to Dean supporter I'm worried about the guy, this is going to be a big weakness with Dean and one reason I'm not 100% behind him... Stop me before I say it but lieberman sounds alot mmore presidental as of late on the subject :)

[blm]

4. Dean writes all his speeches himself?

Care to bet the deed to your house on that one?

[arewethereyet]

5. Yes, I would question that also (Yes, weak on FP)

but then again, listen to some of them, maybe not so far fetched.

[KaraokeKarlton]

8. He has always written them himself

The most he ever does is get others to look at them and suggest ways to improve the wording or whatever. He doesn't use speechwriters or handlers. This particular speech Dean wrote is the one that convinced Gore to endorse him. He sent a copy to Gore for him to read and comment on. It's been pretty widely reported.

[SahaleArm]

37. Not this one - And I wouldn't expect him to either.

Nothing wrong with having advisory input on a subject he's not as strong on. Hell I don't expect every candidate to have knowledge of every specific issue; that's why speechwriters and advisors exist.

[KaraokeKarlton]

48. No, he wrote this one himself too

It's the one he wrote and sent to Gore to look at and give input on, and it was so good it prompted Gore to endorse him.

[caledesi]

58. I saw the speech last night and it was excellent.

He really did look very presidential. The content of the speech and the way is was delivered was stunning. Not your fiery-type stump speech, just a well thoughtout speech with a lot of feeling and honesty. He nailed it!

[mzmolly]

11. Care to bet yours that he doesnt?

:shrug:

[bearfartinthewoods]

42. there was little in that speech yhat sounded deanlike

and the delicery was wooden.. his performance screamed 'this is new turf for me"

c- AND I'M BEING GENEROUS.

i felt more passion in delivery and commitment from reading Edward's FP speech than watching dean.

HELP WANTED...speech writer fir dean...must be knowledgable in foreign policy

[blm]

47. Yes. I would.

A few of the news shows already said he had a team of writers on this speech. They even said Gore has helped him at times. I think it was the MSNBC embed who said the team was doing some rewriting after the Saddam capture but I'm not certain.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. wrong

where's the link, blm? Dean has NEVER used a speech writer in 20 years. He writes his speeches himself and has others proofread them and give him input, nothing more. Write a letter to the campaign and ask them if you don't believe me. He wrote the Great American Restoration Speech too.

[gristy]

6. when does it replay?

Maybe there is a video on-line? Or the text of the speech? I like Dean, but I'll have to take your analysis with a grain of salt until I can see/read the speech myself...

[KaraokeKarlton]

9. You might be able to find a link on line at Cspan

Try www.cspan.org and they might have it up by now.

[KittyWampus]

10. Did He Remeber Not To Call Russia The Soviet Union?

Dean would be dependent on Advisors and Junior is the perfect example of what happens in that case.

Even the BEST of Advisors will have differences and power struggles.

Dean wouldn't have any experience or core to work from... he'd be not only at their mercy but the NeoCons in the Pentagon.

Sorry I didn't watch... had to catch 2 minutes of Clark speaking with Paula interlaced with Antiques Roadshow... will look for a copy of the speech to read.

Hope his delivery was better than the last debate where he sounded like he was reguritating what his staff had crammed into him the night before.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. I'll see if Cspan has it up yet

If not, I can probably find the text. The questions and answer section was just stellar.

Dean wouldn't be dependent on advisors. That's not how he works. If there is an issue he needs to address he gets all the information he can find, scours it, and sorts through it like a doctor diagnosis illness and then treats it using the same kind of judgement. He'll be great on foreign policy.

[KittyWampus]

16. Thanks KK- I'll Bookmark This & Check Back

You're a sweet person.

:grouphug:

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. Looks like it comes back on in about 40 minutes

And it should play at www.cspan.org at the same time. That way you can watch it online while arguing with me at the same time if you want. :D

I try to be sweet...when I'm not being a bitch, that is. :D

[Selwynn]

12. Weak no? Centrist? Yes. If that's what you want, then support him.

[mzmolly]

17. Done...

:)

[sandnsea]

13. It's not what WE think

It's what America in general will think after every stupid comment he has ever made is spread all over the news for 6 months. It's what America in general will think about a guy who says Saddam is dangerous, has WMD, but doesn't want to do anything about it. It's what America will think when this guy from a state of 800,000 tries to pretend he knows anything about terrorists, rogue nations or anything else.

I heard part of that speech. Others have stated the obvious, the delivery was awful and did not instill confidence. And those ARE NOT his ideas, he wouldn't know a foreign policy idea if it fell into his lap. They are his advisors' ideas.

And I love when people get all excited about his comments regarding Iraq. Kerry's been saying the exact same thing since July 2002, when Howard was still upset his party was criticizing the President during a time of war.

Over a cliff with that guy, that's where we'd be headed. Any of the other candidates would be better.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. Dumb comments like "America needs regime change"?

Somehow I don't think Kerry comparing Bush to Saddam Hussein like that is going to go over well with the general public. And then there's always the whole F*ck thing and pushing gun control to worry about. Hate to tell ya, but Kerry's said far worse than Dean has.

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

28. lol

One comment, regime change. Big deal. Forgot long ago. As will be the comment about the situation in Iraq being fucked up, because everybody knows it is.

Nothing like terrorists are soldiers or maybe we're better off without Saddam or who cares where we try bin laden. Or we should go in unilaterally in 60 days, no wait, we shouldn't, no wait... Dean is an embarrassment.

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. It replays at 11:39 on Cspan

For those without cable, you should be able to watch it online at the same time at this link. I don't think you can watch it on demand yet, though.

http://www.c-span.org/watch/index.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS&ShowVidDays=30&ShowVidDesc=

[Julien Sorel]

21. I remember seeing Mike Dukakis in about 1987

give a speech on foreign policy. It was a hell of a speech, as one would expect from a Phi Beta Kappa, Harvard Law cum laude graduate, who had balanced the Massachusetts budget 9 consecutive years and been voted the nation's most effective governor the year before.

I really liked Dukakis -- a gifted and principled man. I hear he's teaching at the Kennedy School these days, where he can still give a hell of a lecture on foreign policy, or any other subject for that matter.

[KaraokeKarlton]

22. Really? I never liked Dukakis

and never thought he had a chance. He didn't have a powerful personality and was too dull. Kinda reminds me of Kerry now that I think about it.

[Julien Sorel]

24. Interesting.

He was actually a solid public speaker, technically, at least, although admittedly his speeches were generally void of hysterics. Of course, the key to foreign policy speeches is content, and there he shined. In fact, I liked his FP content better than the elder Bush's, but the country preferred to trust Bush's extensive experience rather than Dukakis' academic knowledge and intellect. It's actually a consistent pattern throughout this nation's history: during turbulent times or times of threat, choose the person with experience over the person with untested ideas -- or the untested person, period. It's kind of a conservative world view in the old sense of the word 'conservative.'


As for his chance at winning, he certainly did enough fighting to win. The 1988 presidential campaign was marked by negativity and mudslinging on both sides, in contrast to the way Dukakis is portrayed today as a passive campaigner who didn't fight back in the face of the Bush people smearing him as soft on crime, communism, and a tax-and-spend liberal. And yet, the charges stuck. This against a guy who had successfully balanced budgets in his state forever, and who was considered a moderate.

[sandnsea]

29. You know, it was his wife

I always kind of thought that her depression and alcoholism had a bigger impact than people let on. What kind of man treats his wife so badly that she suffers so?? Not fair, but people weren't as aware of depression then as they are now. I always liked him and Kitty alot, genuinely decent people it seemed to me.

That, Willie Horton and the tank pretty much did him in. And I don't remember him really fighting back or coming off as a fighter. Here he was being bombarded with all this stuff and he just kind of took it, like a pacifist. That's why I think he lost.

Clark and Kerry are both fighters and Bush won't be able to hit either of them the way they hit Dukakis back in '88.

[Julien Sorel]

32. I think the wife comment is

a little bit low. I know people who are depressed, and some others who are alcoholics, and their spouses seem like wonderful people to me. Such things are diseases, and I think it's unfair to try to label a person as responsible for them. My father was an alcoholic, and I know damn well my mother had nothing to do with it.

I agree with the Willie Horton and the tank thing; the problem is, had Dukakis not been vulnerable to those types of ads in the first place they never would have been run. Dukakis did fight back, however. His campaign ran ads attacking Bush for the Iran contra thing, and dug up a similar program to the one that 'produced' Willie Horton, that Bush as a congressman had supported. Someone who was out on that program also committed a rape/murder. There were several other attack ads as well that Dukakis came up with. But the ones that stuck were the ones the Republicans produced, because they hit on themes -- soft on crime, soft on defence -- that the public already identified as being Democratic, not Republican, problems.

[sandnsea]

39. I'm not saying it was true

I didn't make it an issue, I'm saying it was one. You don't remember hearing about it? There were still alot of people who were misinformed about depression and alcholism, there still are. But then most people thought depression meant you were unhappy because of your life. I think it was an issue, one that isn't discussed because it isn't polite.

And you are right, the soft on defense/crime wouldn't have stuck so easily if we weren't already walking down that path. I do have a vague memory of some of those ads against Bush, now that you mention them. But Dukakis in a tank, firmly engraved in my mind. *sigh* Hope we do better this time!

[bearfartinthewoods]

44. that's the point

as thibgs continue to go bush's way, it becomes more and more clear that we need the candidate who is the least vulnerable. especially in the south where the prez candidate will e part of the package that also contains any hope for resistance in the senate.

[blm]

52. Dean didn't like Dukakis, either. Too liberal for him

just like he thought about Gephardt.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. Dean soming on Cspan now

tune in!

[DeanIsAPitbull]

26. Dean is a pitbull

He will make defense/foreign policy a strength for himself. He's badass like that.

[LoneStarDem]

35. well.....

Now, I'm all for candidate rah-rah-rah-ing, but this is stretching it. Remember, elections have absolutly nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with the perception. (Of course, if you market it right and your truth is resonant enought, then the truth becomes the perception. But that's reeeaaaallly fucking hard) We are talking a small-state gov verses a sitting commander in chief who has dealt with allies, negotiated international relations, and engaged in two successful foreign conflicts (and if you don't believe that that's how the Repubs will portray it, then it's time to drop by the armory and suit up, 'cause it's gonna be a rough one). If he can break even, or better yet make it a non-issue, I think he'll be getting off easy.

Try this:
"Convince me in twenty word or twenty seconds that Howard Dean is stronger on foreign policy that Shrub OR even the other candidates. Imagine I'm only marginally aware of whats going on politically, and have no great wealth of knowledge on what our foreign policy even is, much less what the best course of action is. Keep it focused on what the candidate brings to the table"

[Ksec]

27. Dean would be a good leader

Lets not kid ourselves. He would do great on all his policies.

[zulchzulu]

30. Dean's statement about Saddam was pretty silly

[zulchzulu]

31. Kerry's reaction to Dean's speech

I'll go with Kerry's extensive background in national security and foreign policy experience over Dean's lack of experience.

This is a press release from the Kerry campaign. If Dean wants to debate these issues, bring it on. Talk is cheap.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

For Immediate Release

December 15, 2003

John Kerry Statement on Dean Foreign Policy Address
Kerry: speech “gives little comfort” to those who question Dean’s experience


“Today's speech is still more proof that all the advisers in the world can’t give Howard Dean the military and foreign policy experience, leadership skills, or diplomatic temperament necessary to lead this country through dangerous times. He broke no new ground today and offers no details as to how he intends to increase our homeland defense efforts, relieve the stress on our overextended armed forces, or implement the $30 billion AIDS programs.

“Dean remarkably backed off claims that Saddam's capture was a good thing, and failed to mention North Korea, despite the fact that he has previously called it one of the biggest threats in decades. He claims that his position on the war has not changed because of the arrest, yet it becomes increasingly unclear each day what that position was and whether it was rooted in conviction or political expediency. Finally, Dean’s claim to keep promises with veterans fail to square with his previous support of cuts in benefits to balance the budget.

“Governor Dean’s speech is long on rhetoric and short on substance. His speech gives little comfort to those who question whether Howard Dean has the background and experience to be our commander-in-chief.”

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. How do we know what Kerry's positions even are?

Unlike Howard Dean, someone else writes Kerry's speeches.

[zulchzulu]

36. If you REALLY want to find out about Kerry's positions...

And what's Matthew Gross? Chopped liver? He's one of Dean's speechwriters.

You knew that, right?

If you really want to see some valid, progressive and well thought out positions on the issues, go here:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues

If you want to see a foreign policy speech that got kudos from the experts, check this out:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy/

[KaraokeKarlton]

53. I don't like Kerry's positions

That's why I support Dean instead of Kerry.

And Dean writes his own speeches. Matthew Gross might look at them and offer input, but Dean wouldn't stand for having anyone else write his speeches for him. Write the campaign and ask and then post your response here.

[zulchzulu]

62. Just say you don't read Kerry's positions because you're too close-minded

That would be more accurate.

[killbotfactory]

38. "Dean sucks" is not a winning message

Kerry needs to re-re-re-re-launch his campaign.

Dean mentioned North Korea, did Kerry even listen to his speech or did he write this yesterday?

And the speech was excellent, and question Kerry's judgment.

[KaraokeKarlton]

54. I am seriously questioning Kerry's foreign policy judgement now too

Dean was spot on in all of that speech. If Kerry thinks the speech is so bad it puts into SERIOUS doubt his judgement on foreign policy. But then he showed us all his lack of judgement in his war vote and shifting his positions based on the political wind of the moment. The man lacks vision.

[texas is the reason]

45. sorry, double posted.

<edit>

[texas is the reason]

46. failed to mention north korea?!! what speech was kerry watching?

kerry is telling a boldfaced LIE and he fucking knows it.oh well, i guess mr harley davidson will try anything to catch up in the polls...

[Egnever]

66. I dont think kerry actually saw this speech

Theres a couple of outright lies in his statement if he did.

[caledesi]

33. Wow! I was blown away by Dean's speech.

Just caught it on c-span. It was great. Cogent, honest, <no fake smiles here>...this guy is a winner.

[SahaleArm]

40. Dean practically screams 'Newbie' - Look at my advisory team

From the front page of DeanForAmerica:

Today Governor Dean also announced his team of distinguished experts on national security and foreign policy. Click here for a list of the advisors.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10994&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1301

If I name enough people maybe everyone will think I'm strong on foreign policy.

[Zomby Woof]

41. a constructive suggestion

The title of your thread is flame-baitey. You are taking a defensive, reactive position. "Anyone who thinks Dean will be weak.."

You are calling out people who may be of the opinion he is weak on foreign policy. What good is that? You can draw more flies with honey than vinegar as the saying goes.

How about: "Dean makes strong foreign policy speech on CSPAN!" or "Here is why I like Howard Dean's foreign policy views!" Then, you are setting the tone for a civil disagreement, if any, rather than a defensive "ready for battle" posture.

I say that because you seem to feel strongly about people who knock Dean's views and credibility. I know that upsets you, and I have no criticism of that. But if you want to show DU that Dean supporters are positive people who can support their candidate in positive ways, lead by example. Titling a thread like yours add credence to the charges of oversensitivity and defensiveness, and invites people to come in here and scorch you.

Not me though. I am ZombyWoof, and I am here to help. ;-)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

43. Speech Was OK

I've seen Dean do better.

DTH

[Ficus]

50. good speech but

I doubt it will make any pro-war people like him. The reality is that Dean is in a huge predicament about his war position, and this speech was supposed to make him look tougher. Naming all the wars you support won't help you with the left, and opposing the current one won't help you with the center.

[Bread and Circus]

51. It's when Dean doesn't have a prepared speech do we see how..

woefully unprepared he is.

[Octafish]

55. Dean is READING a speech.

What he KNOWS is something else, isn't it? The repeated phrase "Soviet Union" springs to mind.

BTW: I understood paid speech writers worked all night on the speech. Where did you learn he's the sole author?

[zulchzulu]

64. Some Deaniacs have little magic crystal balls

They saw a vision that said that Dean himself wrote the speech.

What a magical, little World...

[nomaco-10]

59. If you watched C-Span and came away.....

thinking Dean would be "weak" on foreign policy, you just weren't listening to this man. These are the kind of speeches that will prove to those who doubt him or "perceive" him as unelectable that he is the real deal. I predict converts in mass numbers in the next few months when they really give Dean a look. He's presidential material if I ever saw it.

[John_H]

60. Oh, the humanity!

Chimpy can't form a complete sentence, and a majority of americans think he's a strong wartime leader and solid on national security.

And we're going to rely on speeches to fight him?

[Greyhawk]

67. Ridiculous

How much foreign policy experience did Carter and Clinton have? None. The whole "lack of experience" thing hasn't hurt anyone on either the D or the R side...

3 of the last 4 presidents have been governors. Remember how much GWB was hurt by that interview where he couldn't name the Prime Minister of France or something?
I heard Chris Matthews say that Americans vote for the guy who most seems optimistic about America and that rings true to me.

[jsw_81]

68. Foreign policy

It's kind of funny to see how every four years the media goes on and on about how "critical" it is to nominate someone with foreign policy experience, especially when you consider that four of the last five presidents had NONE when elected president.

George W. Bush - Governor of Texas
Bill Clinton - Governor of Arkansas
Ronald Reagan - Governor of California
Jimmy Carter - Governor of Georgia

The only recent president with significant foreign policy experience, George H.W. Bush, was a complete flop.

[askew]

70. Sort of related

There is an article on Slate that discusses Dean's Foreign policy speech: http://slate.msn.com/id/2092724/

It was a pretty fair discussion of the speech. I particularly liked these parts:

"Dean defines his foreign policy in two ways: It would be "mutilateralist" and have "high moral purpose." What's immoral about Bush's foreign policy? Bush didn't tell the truth about Iraq's WMD or its links to terrorism, and he let ideology distort intelligence about both matters, says Dean. That's an accurate and damning indictment. "

"To make Bush look weak on defense, Dean rehashes the usual Democratic complaint that Bush is stiffing veterans' health care. But Dean also throws in more creative arguments. He accuses Bush of funding "new generations of tactical battlefield nuclear weapons" that don't help—and take money away from—the war on terrorism. And he argues that the Iraq war, by pulling tens of thousands of National Guard members overseas for more than a year, has "deprived local communities of many of their best defenders." The Guard's "main mission should be here at home, preparing, planning, and acting to keep our citizens safe in the United States," says Dean. If al-Qaida strikes us again, this argument puts Dean in a position to hammer Bush for leaving the homeland exposed."