Anti Dean Campaign underway

[MariaS]

Thought some might be interested in this.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stopdean2004/join

[LuminousX]

1. AKA Clark Supporters Opposed to Dean

Fascinating stuff. If Dean should fall to the wayside, which candidate will this group decide to back? If you are a Kerry supporter, do you really want to do the campaign work for Clark?

[maddezmom]

4. Not this Clark supporter

Yet. I'm sure there are more than just Clark supporters and when you get lumped in all the time from the Dean camp it gets to be a little frustrating. :(

[LuminousX]

31. Like all Dean voters being called cultists?

The Stop Dean movement has been traced back to GWforClark.com. If other Clark supporters oppose this, then they better speak up and speak loud.

[maddezmom]

36. if you look back at the threads I did speak out against it

and for the record, I have never attacked another Dean supporter. Do a search. I ask questions and give my opinion on the candidates.

[drfemoe]

87. yes it does

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=922391

[Tom Rinaldo]

18. Since I refused to join the site

I could not check for myself. Are you jumping to conclusions or did the site proclaim istself as Clark supporters trying to stop Dean? There are 9 candidates running, and a lot fo free agent Democrats, as well as some Republican operatives who might potentially engage in divide and conquor efforts. I was bothered to learn of this Stop Dean site, but I am also bothered when I find accusations unsupported by evidence that specifically blame all those efforts on Clark.

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. P.S.

Since this is a free country and all, it is hard to control the activities of everyone who has strong feelings. Like I said I have not been on the site, but if it was started by some Clark supporters consider this: It is VERY easy to start a Yahoo Club. Anyone can do it on a coffee break. Yahoo has a completely pre fab format that you just plug into. Yahoo has email tools to spread word about their clubs and a searchable index that enables anyone interested in finding out about politics to see a list of related Yahoo Clubs.

I think the TV ads are a much bigger deal, that takes real money and effort to pull off.

[sujan]

22. Wesley Clark _is_ the republican operative

who is engaging in dividing and conquering efforts.

[NashVegas]

27. Warning - Propaganda Alert

I've done more checking on one of the Yahoo group moderators. The one who left his name. (see my other post below). IF - and that's a HUGE IF - that guy wasn't some masquerader looking to get someone in trouble, this is someone who seems to have trouble making up his mind.

He's either

1) a Clark supporter being an asshole
2) a Dean supporter being an asshole by trying to make it look like Clark is attacking Dean
3) a former Dean supporter who got turned off by something and is now being an asshole.
4) someone who earlier posed as a Dean supporter just to get inside.

The guy is listed in the Dean database as having coordinated 2 past events, one in August, one in October.

[retyred]

45. #2

It is soooo transparent, who benifits from this? I'm surprised there isn't a call to contribute to help stop dean from becoming a victim once again by a smear campaign.


george bush…pResident?

retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[NashVegas]

25. I Joined and Checked it Out

The only thing that indicates they might be pro-Clark is that a George Washington U. students for Clark website is linked to in the 'links' page, and that one of the people listed on that website as a consultant also is one of the moderators on the anti-Dean group.

Not much turns up on a whois on gwforclark.com

They used Go Daddy as a registrar, just like the 'progressivevalues.com' people.

One of the people there has a very look-upable name, appears to be a student journalist-activist. Future Media Whores of America.

And there's somethine else you might want to see:

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:IaJI9n6smmkJ:deanlink.deanforamerica.com/viewMember.php%3FuserID%3D120+Marcus+Mrowka&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[maddezmom]

26. could you elaborate?

are they all connected in someway? I'm lost. :(

[NashVegas]

30. Sorry, That Was Confusing

One of the group's leaders left his name and two phone numbers where he's reachable in a post.

I did a search on the phone numbers and verified they match the name left. I then did a Google search on his name, and found him, among other places, on a Dean supporters' list. (see my other post, above the one above)

[unfrigginreal]

33. Do you have a link for this?

The guy is listed in the Dean database as having coordinated 2 past events, one in August, one in October.

[NashVegas]

35. Here

http://commons.deanforamerica.com/seeUser.php?memberID=1287

and please read post #27 before getting too excited.

[maddezmom]

39. something stinks

Thanks for the link.

[unfrigginreal]

41. If you follow the links through

you'll see that he was listed as a participant in those 2 events and not a coordinator. No surprise, there's always spies at the campaign events of opponents.

[NashVegas]

43. Ah

K, I was just looking at the 1st page.

[maddezmom]

61. your right, I guess every camp has it's spies

It's just the ways of politics.

[SahaleArm]

67. On August 23rd? Clark didn't even decide to run until mid-September n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

90. when he decided to run and when he announced are two different things

There was a Clark Draft going way before that.

[maddezmom]

42. someone should take some screenshots of those links

because I have a feeling they are going to disappear.

[drfemoe]

29. both of the organizers

http://www.gwforclark.com/contact.html are on this page ...
Chad Reed
E-mail:[e-mail]
AOL Instant Messenger: whiteguy00000

Consultant: Marcus Mrowka
E-mail: [e-mail]
AIM: damnliberal2032

They are both posting to the yahoo group.. the only two allowed to do so....

[sujan]

32. re:

They are clark operatives.

[Tom Rinaldo]

40. How do you know that?

Seriously, how do you know that? What proof do you have for that statement? It is very to make a statement. If I say "They are Lieberman operatives" why should anyone accept that as fact just because I said it?

Taking it one step further, Clark has over 50,000 meetup members. If, and I said if, one or more Clark supporters knew one or more supporters of another candidate other than Dean, and they wanted to persuade people that supporting Dean was a very big mistake, and they started a Yahoo Stop Dean Club (it's easy to do folks, I've started non related Yahoo Clubs, trust me, it's very easy, no time money or experience needed), the question is: Would that qualify one or more of those folks as being "Clark Operatives" as a result? Stop (the frontrunner) movements are as old as politics. You don't have to be "an operative" to promote that theme. Or are you saying that each and every partisan for any and all of the candidates are "operatives" for their given choice?

In my political dictionary operative means paid agent. Do you have any proof whatsoever that the club founders are paid agents of anyone, let alone Clark? Making unsupported accusations like the one you just did is much worse in my book than openly expressing an opinion that so and so shouldn't be elected and organizing in favor of that position, however much I might disagree with it.

[SahaleArm]

57. Dean Operatives

http://commons.deanforamerica.com/seeUser.php?memberID=1287

[edzontar]

47. This is the site promoted yesterday by the GW Clarkies...

And represents the application of Nixon-style GOP dirty trick tactics to the Dem race.

I call on all REAL Dem supporters of Clark to denounce these phoney and divisive tactics.

[dajabr]

79. If only that impartial DUer who originally posted the site...

Would come back and explain their intentions. That would probably settle this mess.

:shrug:

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. The guy who started the group is a consultant for Clark

at GW University. So yes, this is a Clark guy behind this nonsense, and he's trying to lure the supporters of other candidates in by pretending to be behind no one. The clear agenda is to try to get Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards and Lieberman supporters to switch to Clark "for the good of the party". Why Clark? He's never even won an election before. People should just stick to supporting who they like best and leave these idiots to their foolishness.

[SahaleArm]

52. Uh, sure thing...

http://commons.deanforamerica.com/seeUser.php?memberID=1287

[KaraokeKarlton]

60. He's just a clarkie spy

all campaigns have them. I'm glad the mole has been exposed. I hope someone lets the campaign know about this bozo.

[retyred]

66. The Moderator is a DEAN supporter?

Looks like my reply #42 was spot on...thanks for the enlightening link to this dean supporters tactic of victimizing dean.

Let's just see how many deanies will follow their own lead and call for other deanies to rant out against this. This is really pathitic.


george bush…pResident?

retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[drfemoe]

73. guess he's a 'double agent'

Contact GW Students for Clark
Consultant: Marcus Mrowka
E-mail: [e-mail]
AIM: damnliberal2032

http://www.gwforclark.com/contact.html

[bicentennial_baby]

74. Nah, Just Deanies digging up dirt in their offtime

At their other meeting place...

[Tom Rinaldo]

2. I was curious but

I refused to join the club and therefor did not get past the opening page so I don't know what they are up to. I will not be part of a Stop Dean movement. I will from time to time raise questons that I might have about him, but that is too over the top for me.

[dfong63]

8. i joined and immediately left after poking around

their stated primary mission is to "stop George Bush", but they say that they must first stop Howard Dean because he's "unelectable". their strategy is to support Gephardt in IA and then "reassess" to see who has the best shot at besting Dean in NH.

there were only about half a dozen messages. one of them claimed that their group has 100 members. he/she/it apologized for the fact that "only moderators can post". she said that this is only temporary, until they get their web site and blog up and running.

ho hum.

[mzmolly]

19. Their strategy is a mask they're clark supporters with out a doubt.

:( They do not speak for all clark supporters I am sure.

[Randi_Listener]

3. Enough.....

...of this candidate trashing bullshit. Enough trashing real Democrats with these dogshit allegations.

[ErasureAcer]

53. Aren't democrats supposed to be liberal?

Dean himself said he wasn't liberal in a salon.com interview.

Let the anti-dean campaign keep going...we don't need non-liberals in the democratic party.

[LuminousX]

5. The last attempt at this took 200 replies before the mods realized

it is nothing but pure flamebait. It may not seem like it on the surface but any effort like this, directed at any candidate, is something a forum meant for all Democrats shouldn't encourage.

This contributes to the hostile environment as it encourages the Dean people to start a Stop Clark effort. When we are lining up in sheer opposition to each other, it makes joining together after the primaries that much more difficult.

I have no problems with Clark supporters doing this, but using DU as a forum for recruitment does make Dean voters feel like second class members.

[Cooley Hurd]

10. ABDers should be ashamed of themselves...

What short-sighted, unDemocratic fools they are. Unless they adopt the ABB credo, they're irrelevant in the Democratic Party...

[ModerateMiddle]

80. Dissent is unpatriotic!!!

Heil!

[Cooley Hurd]

89. Nice try at a straw man...

I never said dissent was unpatriotic. I said Democrats engaging in anti-Democratic activity are ultimately hurting their party and, because of their blatant disregard of the party, make themselves irrelevant by negating the overall power of the party.

Heil, indeed...:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

11. Well, get used to it

How a person supporting the clear and runaway frontrunner can be made to feel like a "second-class member" is something of a mystery to me. In the same vein, supporters of the frontrunner who seem shocked that they are under assault from the other candidates during primary season is likewise mysterious.

That having been said, this Stop Dean thing is not something I personally approve of.

[Hep]

16. Fair enough

I'm not shocked, perse. I mean, I'm naive, but I'm not THAT naive. What confuses me is the utter stupidity of people who don't realize that making it about Dean is the best thing that could happen to Dean.

Now I'm beginning to understand why Baywatch was the most viewed TV show in the world. Look at the populace. A bunch of lunatics.

[LuminousX]

23. But you approve of using DU in this manner?

As I said, I have no problem with them doing this, I have a problem with them using DU for this purpose, especially when DU has a Support the candidate 'rule.' If we suddenly have five or six 'Stop X' movements... it will end ugly.

[WilliamPitt]

44. Go down and ask the Admins about this

They have a healthy understanding of the primary season. Once the nomination is secured, it'll be the kind of ballgame you're looking for.

[edzontar]

50. Sad to see this line back again...

After the damage done yesterday.

[Cheswick2.0]

91. there is nothing healthy with what is going on

you might think this will benefit Kerry in the long run, so maybe you aren't capable of objectivity.

The idea that this kind of effort serves the party is bullshit.

[HuckleB]

6. I do feel pity and compassion for "Stopdeaniacs" like this.

It's just so sad. How couldn't I?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. NYTimes ran a story today

"A new Democratic group that is running advertisements against Howard Dean and has not yet disclosed its sources of financing has introduced by far the toughest commercial of the primary election season.

Though the advertisement, which began running on Friday in South Carolina and New Hampshire, is paid for by Democrats, it offers a taste of a likely Republican strategy against Dr. Dean should he win the presidential nomination...."

New Democratic Group Finances a Republican-like Attack on Dean

[tnlefty]

24. Has this group stopped to consider that it may be making ABB a little

more difficult?

BTW, I haven't seen the ad so I don't know the contents of it, but I wouldn't like truly nasty ads being run about any of the candidates by ANY democratic group, newly-formed, oldly-formed, or any-formed.

[depakid]

28. No, One doubts that they care

ond one doubts that a class act approvove of some of the more juvenile posts here at DU. It'd odd that I don't see much of the vitriol at other sitres ikr SC.

[janx]

9. Isn't it a bit late for this? To do this now encourages a kind of pathos

relating to Clark, doesn't it?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deutsey]

13. Gosh, maybe these guys will even start a Stop Bush Campaign

Naaaah.

:evilfrown:

[Hep]

17. Sure they will and they'll fund it by selling stopdean.com to the freepers

Brothers in arms.

[unfrigginreal]

14. How many times is DU going to allow this to be posted?

This movement by Dems is just as despicable as the Osama ad that other(?) Dems are running.

It's pathetic that Clark supporters find this appropriate.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

37. I don't believe there will be a need for a "Stop Kerry" group. n/t

[sujan]

15. Wesley Clark must be getting desperate

[SahaleArm]

56. Worrying about a student group?

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid, it's quite pathetic.

[mzmolly]

20. Yikes, this doesn't look good for Clarkies to engage in an anti democracy

campaign. Have you notified the Clark campaign so they can stop these people from tarnishing the good generals name?!

[NashVegas]

38. I'm Not Ready to Slam Clark's Organization for This

And I don't think anyone else should until we know the full scoop on these doofuses.

[edzontar]

70. Note that no one from the Clark camp has yet to denounce it

Which suggests they are cool with it, which suggests that they are not exactly loyal to the party as a whole.

I hope I am wrong, but we are all still waiting....

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

78. Do you renounce

the devil and all his works, the pomps and vanity of this wicked world, and all the sinful lusts of the flesh?

All this "well they haven't denounced it so they must like it" business is a bit freeperish. Kinda like "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party."

It's also a particularly silly argument.

[Tom Rinaldo]

82. Reread the posts

#4 and #18 for starters. #18 was from me, and my point was I did refused to even read the content of that club because I refused to join a Stop Dean Club and membership was required in order to access the content. You are making sweeping suggestions based on little evidence, and in fact I am pointing out evidence that suggests just the opposite. But you can't expect everyone to denounce every disagreeable statement or action made by someone who supports the same candidate as you. I am not blaming you, let alone Dean, for some of the really ugly Clark is a war criminal stuff some Dean fans insist on keeping posting.

Yahoo Clubs start out as vanity sites. Anyone can own one, I set up a bogus one in 10 mins just to prove that point.

[edzontar]

92. Thank you.....I haven't read all that many Clark posts that

Admitted this was bad stuff.

As you can see, the jig is up for this guy.....and he didn't make your campaign look very good over the past day and half or so.....

[bicentennial_baby]

77. Does'nt look good for DU Deanies

To dig up dirt on other DUers outside of DU and then attempt to pass it off as something they just discovered through no effort of their own. but that's just my opinion, of course.

[KaraokeKarlton]

81. That's the price for posting the thing on DU, now isn't it.

Did you think Dean supporters would just take such blatant attacks and sabotage on our candidate sitting down? No way. We have every right to know whose doing this and so does the supporters of Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards and Lieberman. This group is trying to lure those people in under false pretenses and even though I don't support their candidates I don't want to see them get used as tools, either.

[KaraokeKarlton]

46. This group a front group for Clark

So, if you support any other candidate you can expect to be pressured into abandoning your candidate to support Clark instead. It's kind of comical how these folks assume that everyone is going to want to unite behind someone whose never even won any kind of election before and has questionable past ties with the Bush Administration. I doubt Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards and Lieberman supporters will go for this one. Especially since the only reason any of them really want to "Stop Dean" in the first place is because THEY want the nomination. Why would their supporters look to Clark as some kind of savior of the party?

It's all really silly if you ask me.

The owner of the Stop Dean group is a Consultant for the Clark organization at Georgetown University. Supporters of the other candidates should beware and just stick to supporting thier own candidate. :shrug:

[edzontar]

48. They are using dishonest, dirty-tricks tactics....

All Clark supporters should denounce this fraud.

IF they are really loyal to the Dem Party, that is.

[Tom Rinaldo]

51. Give me a break

Owner of the Stop Dean group? "Consultant" for the Clark orgaaniztion at Georgetown University? What exactly is "a consultant" to a student club anyway? Do you have any idea how easy it is to start a student club at a University? Do you know how many Universities there are? Do you have any idea how easy it is to start a Yahoo Club? Do you really think a "consultant" to a student club "owning" a Yahoo Club is evidence of some type of national campaign conpiracy? OK, watch. I'm going to leave now and become the owner of a Yahoo Club. I'll be right back. See how long it takes me.

[drfemoe]

55. maybe bureau chief is better term

google results:

http://dcbureau.uwire.com/

The U-WIRE D.C. Bureau, formed in partnership with the GW Hatchet at George Washington University, provides coverage of national issues of interest to college students. Located just four blocks from the White House and in the heart of the nation's capitol, the D.C. Bureau has a unique vantage point to report on politics.
...
MARCUS MROWKA
D.C. BUREAU CHIEF
Marcus Mrowka is a junior at George Washington University majoring in journalism and political science. He has been a reporter with U-WIRE since his freshman year, was promoted to Assistant Bureau Chief his sophomore year and is now serving his first year as Bureau Chief.

...
The point is these young men are claiming to represent Clark on the one hand and claiming to want ABD. Why do they choose to campaign for their candidate with this method? It is eerily familiar to un-named slime ads. If they don't mind the moral implications, nobody's stopping them.

[Tom Rinaldo]

63. I personally don't like stop anyone movements

I tend to agree with you on that point, but this is the internet age, anyone can go off and do anything they want and get onto the web. There are tens of thousands of people supporting the major candidates. I didn't need apporval from anyone to start my new bogus Yahoo Club. Supporters of every candidate do things that I wish they wouldn't do. At least when they state their true opinions we can agree, argue, or ignore them.

By the way I will delete the new "Dean is a Gore Tool" Yahoo Club that I "own" tommorrow at the latest. I think it is important though to show how little effort goes into starting these "movements".

[Tom Rinaldo]

58. OK, here it is

Dean is a Gore Tool Club at Yahoo. Here is the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/deanisagoretool/

I would have been quicker but I went to the Dean site and tried to grab the Dean/Gore photo but it I couldn't save it in a jpg or gif format so I couldn't load it as the club photo at Yahoo. Oh, be sure to check the links.

[drfemoe]

62. the stop dean group

is advertising for a web master .. in case you're looking for work ..

[Tom Rinaldo]

69. lol

Nah, I doubt they can afford to pay me. Plus it is so much fun to just start your own Yahoo Club and pass it off as a major political movement.

[DjTj]

54. Why does everyone assume a candidate must be behind everything...

...aren't most University groups run by students who aren't paid a dime for their support? I wouldn't expect this to be anything different. The odds of Clark himself knowing anything about a tiny yahoo group that was started yesterday are very very low...

...and on that note, is it so far-fetched to think that the anti-Dean ads running on TV are products of the people that run the progressivevalues group? They may have certain connections to Gephardt and Kerry, but I seriously doubt that means that Gephardt or Kerry was shown any of the ads before they aired.

We all seem to think that everything is run by a vast BushCo kind of conspiracy, but all the campaigns except for Dean's don't have money to spare and I seriously doubt they would be funding these efforts.

Isn't it possible that all these efforts are simply run by people who actually believe what they're saying? Stop looking for conspiracies. Sometimes people just believe things and they organize behind them. It is all very silly, and it's run by silly people. Don't drag the candidates into it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

64. I'm not blaming Clark for this guy, or even Clark supporters in general

But the Clark supporters who are doing this, yes, I'm blaming. These are people in an influential position on a US university representing Wes Clark. If I were a Clark Supporter I'd be raging mad over this because it reflects poorly on Clark and those who support him. Clarkies need to let the official campaign know what these guys are doing, and the sooner the better, because if this goes much further and hits the press, it will hurt Clarks image.

[SahaleArm]

59. http://commons.deanforamerica.com/seeUser.php?memberID=1287

http://commons.deanforamerica.com/seeUser.php?memberID=1287

These are events that Marcus coordinated or is coordinating.

Past Event: People-Powered Howard Sleepless Summer Tour on 4:00 PM on Sat. Aug. 23rd

Past Event: Rally to Welcome Dean to the DNC on 10:00 AM on Fri. Oct. 3rd

Yeah, he was a spy for the Clark campaign on August 23rd?

[unfrigginreal]

65. Follow the links through

He was not a coordinator but just a participant. This guy definitely fits the MO of a spy infiltrator.

[SahaleArm]

68. On August 23rd? I don't think so n/t

[unfrigginreal]

72. Why not?

Draft Clark was started long before that.

[SahaleArm]

76. Organizing infiltration on August 23rd?

Yeah, all 8 of us were thinking that far ahead :eyes:. Maybe he's just a disgruntled ex-Deaniac or maybe this is Trippi's plan to raise money by making supporters feel bad about poor Howard, or maybe he's just a Gephardt supporter, or maybe it's Kerry himself...

:tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat:

[ModerateMiddle]

84. nah, it's Gore

remember? he invented the internet.

[NashVegas]

88. Disgruntled ex-Dean-Supporter

Is definitely a possibility, if you've been paying close attention to those who've been slamming Dean from the left as well as the right.

I wouldn't latch onto any one scenario just because it suits my purpose and hope others wouldn't, as well.

[ModerateMiddle]

83. lol

:tinfoilhat:

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Capn Sunshine]

85. I suggest you put your energy into a PRO CLARK campaign

unless you have learned nothing from the past two election cycles.

"we're not them vote for us" is not a winning strategy.

Try getting out there with the positive Clark message, instead of the negative anti-Dean one. People want to know what is so great about your candidate; show them. "He's not Dean" is not the answer they are looking for.

Try this approach and maybe you'll become a threat to the front runner.


My .02

[drfemoe]

86. very popular subject in GD today