The next time someone ridicules blackhelicopter/tinfoilhat/etc.

[barbaraann]

theories, do this: pull out a dollar bill, point out the symbolism on the back, and explain how much of it came from SECRET SOCIETIES, including one that Franklin Roosevelt and his Vice-President belonged to. Here are just a couple of sites that can explain how there have indeed been secret societies for centuries and how they have indeed held great power in our country and still do.

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/dollarbill.html

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/All_Seeing_Eye.htm

(There are numerous other sites about dollar bill symbolism, too.)

I don't mean this to be a silly post. Two of my rightwing brothers have woken up to the propagandistic nature of Rush Limbaugh's "black helicopter" ridicule and this awakening was one of the first steps in a weakening of rightwing mind control for them.

We all have something in our pockets/pocketbooks most of the time that can shine a tiny little light into the darkness of the mind-controlled brain and we should learn to use it.

[Chants]

1. Not ready to beleive.

You may be right, but members of these societies have openly worked against each other, especially in politics. Clinton was Skull and Bones; Bush was Skull and Bones. Truman was a 32nd Degree Mason. Many powerful conservative businessmen are 32nd Degree Masons. Membership in secret societies are all over the political spectrum.

To assume that these societies have actually been controlling us, one must believe that politics in America is simply a ruse by the left and the right to create the appearance of legitimacy.

I am not ready to believe that.

[barbaraann]

3. So do you think ordinary people are in control?

I really don't think so. Regarding an "appearance of legitimacy," I would say that since the stolen 2000 election we don't even have that. You are correct that there are factions in the ruling elite, but far too much power is concentrated in the hands of the wealthy.

And I don't think Bill Clinton was Skull and Bones; he was a Rhodes Scholar, though.

[apsuman]

8. Clinton not a Rhodes Scholar

Clinton is not a Mason.

Clinton attended Oxford University but he did not graduate and thus is not a Rhodes Scholar.

[Snazzy]

18. Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar

It is a graduate program--32 people a year from US.

You don't get an Oxford degree in the two years you spend there. It is to pursue a topic.

[July]

43. I'm sorry, but this sounds like freeper-talk

Clinton was, indeed, a Rhodes Scholar, and being one does not depend on ultimately getting a degree. However, wingnuts, in their zeal to take away any accomplishment that might make Clinton seem worthy of praise or respect, frequently claim that he is not a Rhodes Scholar.

Where did you get your information?

[Eroshan]

78. You are a Rhodes Scholar

when you are given the Rhodes Scholarship to attend Oxford.

[Syrinx]

4. I've never heard that Clinton was in Skull And Bones

Got a link on that?

[giantrobot_2000]

5. Clinton

Clinton most certainly was NOT Skull and Bones. He is a Mason, though.

You know what Masons do? They go to their meetings, drink beer, complain about their wives and talk shop.

[barbaraann]

12. Do you think Masons network with each other for business?

And do you think a lot of non-Masons are left out of a lot of business?

I don't know about the Masons but I have a relative in the Moose. The Moose truly is mainly a drinking club but they also network for business and not one member in the local chapter is black; few are minorities. A few years back a member had to struggle to have his Asian wife accepted in the women's group.

These groups are not just about drinking. They are also about power and privilege.

If you read those links I posted you will learn a lot about the Masons.

[alfredo]

42. We do a lot of networking at our union hall.

we drink too.

[barbaraann]

44. And some unions are hard to get into unless you

already have a family member in them. I wish the economic playing field were more level.

[Chants]

16. Sorry, Kerry, not Clinton, was a member of S&B

[Garbo]

54. No he isn't.

Clinton is not a Mason.

And secondly, they do not sit around, drink, ad complain about their wives.

Pure rubbish.

[eileen_d]

70. All of the Masons I knew did exactly that.

That's why Masonic conspiracy theories crack me up. The Masons I know are probably more invested in who wins the "Bud Bowl" than who controls the world.

[barbaraann]

72. The Moose can outdrink the Masons any day..

:-)

[Gringo]

7. Clinton was never Skull & Bones. Kerry was...

He is a mason, and I was surprised to find that the film director James Cameron is also a top-level mason. Don't know much about them, but the whole secrecy thing is a bit wierd.

Anyway, I try not to read to much into secret-society talk. Many members of such societies have apparently done much good in our society.

[RapidCreek]

36. Clinton was and is not skull and bones

RC

[morgan2]

60. Clinton was not in Skull and Bones

he was a Rhodes Scholar.

[bryant69]

2. If there was a group secretly running everything

Why would they have the power to run it all and yet not do something a bit better than this?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[barbaraann]

6. Why do you suppose that secrecy is so important to the Bushies?

http://www.bushsecrecy.org/

You know, there really is organized crime and you might call it a "secret society." Where there is secrecy, there is something to hide and the secrecy in our federal government now is incredible.

[Capn Sunshine]

27. Mr. Chick explains this all to you-----

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp

[barbaraann]

32. Fascinating.

And what's with the aprons???

[On the Road]

9. George Washington, Too

was a Mason, along with a lot of our founding fathers. The problem with using secret societies, however, is that they suggest, but do not prove, any specific conspiracies. Today, many of these groups are pretty harmless, and it's difficult to prove that they were sinister.

I think the best defense is to come out with a charge that SOUNDS like a tinfoil theory, but which you can immediately produce solid evidence for.

One is that the US provided biological agents to Iraq in the 1980's. A letter from the CDC to the Iraqis listing the agents was published in Business Week.

Another is the attempted coup d'etat against FDR by business leaders. Most people will be aghast and refuse to believe this, but there were brief congressional hearings held, so it's easy to show.

The October surprise in 1980 is another. While there's no smoking gun to prove that Reagan made a deal with the Iranians before the election, but the existence of a deal is confirmed by leaders in Russia, France, Israel, the Palestinian authority, and other states.

[Ficus]

15. FDR coup

Another is the attempted coup d'etat against FDR by business leaders. Most people will be aghast and refuse to believe this, but there were brief congressional hearings held, so it's easy to show.

Please give me a link to info on this. I've never heard it but am curious to learn more about this theory.

I'm not a tinfoil hatter, but I always like hearing about the stories.

[barbaraann]

22. Here's a link to some info about an attempted US coup.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Butler.html

I was surprised to see the name of Gen. Smedley Butler pop up!

[Ficus]

45. hey thanks

I'll take a look!

[barbaraann]

46. You're welcome.

Let's just hope our heads don't explode from all the information we are learning on the internet!

[Ficus]

48. hmmmm

I'd believe that there were right wingers back in '34 that wanted to take Roosevelt out of power. FDR was probably as hated by them as W is hated by us. If an army of 500,000 veterans marched on Washington and arrested FDR, I would really doubt their actions would be successful.

I did like this quote:
Butler is best remembered today for his oft-quoted statement in the socialist newspaper Common Sense in 1935:

I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.... Looking back on it, I felt I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three city districts. We Marines operated on three continents.

[barbaraann]

58. And this classic:

WAR IS A RACKET

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
...

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[barbaraann]

17. I guess I'm trying to say that the dollar bill proves a good ole boy

network at the very least, and SUGGESTS more.

The Masons are not a open society. Why would this be?

[apsuman]

21. Masons not an open society

Masons say they are not open because the only reason to join is the mystery.

In other words, if masonry were open source nobody would join.

[bobthedrummer]

10. Dennis Kucinich mentioned "mind control" and exotic weapons in his

Space Preservation Act of 2001/HR2977 but that reference was disappeared from the revised act Space Preservation Act of 2002/HR3616

http://www.raven1.net/govptron.htm

[ArkDem]

11. Hmmmmm...

>We all have something in our pockets/pocketbooks most of the time that can shine a tiny little light into the darkness of the mind-controlled brain and we should learn to use it.<

I can't get batteries for mine.

[barbaraann]

14. Try breaking up Wintergreen Lifesavers candy.

You can get a little light from that. :-)

[giantrobot_2000]

13. Mason

You know who else is a Mason? The guy who played Kramer on Seinfeld.

I know lots of Masons, they're just small businessmen who sit around and give money to children's hospitals and things like that.

Skull and Bones, on the other hand, is freaky. The membership is a who's who of industrialists and military-industrial complex types.

[YNGW]

19. Conspiracy

I'd like to know who is behind this conspiracy crap. These things don't happen without somebody planning them. I suspect a secret cabal of Trekkies, followers of Quisp and Quake, executives of the Sci Fi channel, and the radioactive beanstalks in the latest Stephen King novel. Also Regis Philbin, Dharma and Greg, Bart Simpson, Mary Mother of God, and followers of Norwegian Death Metal bands, or at least early Norwegian death metal bands before they sold out, the jerks. Did anyone see "Crossing Over" last night? Totally believable. I once owned a bicycle just like the one in E.T. Coincidence? I think not. Sometimes, at night when I stare up at the stars, I think I see the face of God. It's at moments like this that I'm glad I was born without antenaes and that the Northern Lights are so beautiful I could just cry. There's a light that never goes out. Can I have a Pepsi? Somebody just give me a Pepsi. You're so beautiful when you look at me like that.....

[barbaraann]

26. One thing I can tell you.

I've looked at lists of secret societies and they are virtually ALL male. So I CAN tell you that it's men behind the conspiracies. :-)

Do you know about the Bohemian Grove?

[YNGW]

28. Paranoid

I wouldn't be so paranoid if Bo Gritz would stop following me around. Also, why are there two moons in the sky? Has anyone read Dhalgren backwards? How many anarchists does it take to form a consensus that perhaps it's time to change the lightbulb? I'd never want to be part of a conspiracy that would have me as a plotter. Oh, I'm so alone. Where are the Cheez-its? When will this nightmare end. There's a little Area 51 in all of us.......

[YNGW]

29. Dreams

Sometimes in my dreams I see a statute of Jesus made entirely of cheeseburgers. Bo, you look so lovely in the moonlight......

[barbaraann]

34. Do you suppose that the people who are being held by our

government without charges would appreciate your humor? Would you have ridiculed Jews who were scared in Germany in the early thirties?

Sorry, sometimes there is reason to be parnoid.

[YNGW]

38. Maybe

There's a Conspiracy Convention in the Atlanta area I saw announced in a publication which is within driving distance of where I live, so maybe someone in the area can find out and report back. Who's behind this convention? I don't know. I don't want to know. I assume it's the usual wackos and space aliens, no doubt controlled by the CIA, along with rogue cast-offs of the old KGB; financing to be provided through a secretive swap deriviative set up by Enron, with all records to be shredded by Arthur Anderson after a wild night of sex, cocaine, and quaaludes in Dick Cheney's underground bunker beneath the Playboy mansion. I'll be working on my taxes or maybe washing my hair that weekend, and so I regret to announce that I can't attend. Let me know how it goes.

[barbaraann]

40. What is your opinion of the BFEE?

Do you think the Bushes are just a family dedicated to public service or an organized criminal war profiteering empire?

Also, what is your opinion of the blackboxvoting issues? Do you think that JUST MAYBE Diebold is involved in a conspiracy?

[barbaraann]

47. Are you ready for the BBV press conference?

I'd like to hear your opinion regarding the announcement.

[windansea]

55. heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh! (nt)

[Capn Sunshine]

20. Look at the back of a dollar bill

Then look at the Homeland Security logo for the "Total Information Awareness" department.



Creeped out yet?

[glitch]

23. whenever someone accuses me of wearing a tinfoil hat, I can't help

but picture them wearing one like this:



a special hat just for coincidence theorists.

[YNGW]

25. rod mckuen

we had joy, we had fun, we had seasons in the sun/ but the joy and the fun, like the seasons are all gone.
I cried when I read this..........................

[benburch]

24. I'm in a secret society too...

... but that doesn't mean that we run the world!

(We just WISH we did!)

http://www.oto-usa.org/

[barbaraann]

30. That is quite interesting!

Are you really a member? I'd love to hear more about it.

[benburch]

31. I'm a "Minerval"

Which is a sort of "honored guest" or associate membership.

Go read the text on the site which explains better than I ever could.

[barbaraann]

33. I will.

But do you have any comments about what it has meant to you personally? If I'm being too curious, just ignore me. :-)

[benburch]

37. Meant to me personally?

Well, a few things;

I have been a practicing pagan and occultist for the last quarter century, and one cannot do that without acknowledging the contributions of Aliester Crowley and the other members of the OTO. In fact, many years ago, when they were much less organized, I tried to find the OTO in order to pursue initiation, but was unable to make the connection. At this point in my life I feel I have too many other obligations to consider the obligations that come with initiation oaths, so when I was finally in contact with the Order, I took the Minerval degree and left it at that.

Still, I strongly support their work, which is to bring freedom to choose to all of mankind. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.", the Thelemic motto, implies a number of things, in particular; Freedom to choose one's own path, and the absolute responsibility for ones own actions. It also implies a particular relationship between the self and the rest of the cosmos that you really have to meditate upon for quite a while before it makes any sense.

I've been thinking about these things since 1976, and I'm still working on undertanding them.

-Ben

[barbaraann]

39. Thank you, Ben.

I like the part about "absolute responsibility for ones own actions." That's how I have lived my own life.

Right now I don't think many of us have time for anything but fighting the BFEE but perhaps after we defeat the evildoers we can take some time for spiritual growth.

[Aries]

35. The OTO has an interesting history...

Have you heard about Jack Parsons?

SEX & ROCKETS - The Occult World of Jack Parsons

"...Every year on its Open Day the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California enacts a birth rite. Mannequins and dummy rockets are posed behind the Visitor Centre, their postures replicating a photo of JPL's "Nativity Scene" - a pioneering test of a liquid-fuel rocket motor on the Halloween of 1936, inspired and directed by Jack Parsons.

Parsons' role as an innovator in rocket science has been compared to Werner Von Braun or Robert Goddard, but despite his place in the mythology of JPL ("Jack Parsons Lives") - and the crater on the dark side of the Moon that bears his name - he has not been canonised in popular science mythology as an all-American astro-hero.

For Parsons' own rituals, as Head of Agape Lodge, the American branch of Aleister Crowley's Order of Oriental Templars, were richer and stranger. Indeed, at the height of his sex-magickal activity, the Babalon Working of 1946, Parsons hoped to bring about a conception on the aethyric plane that would result in the Nativity of a Goddess. His relationships with L.Ron Hubbard and the artist Marjorie Cameron and, above all, the mysterious circumstances of his death in a laboratory explosion in 1952 have been the focus for speculation for years, in occult circles and beyond...."

[benburch]

41. Oh yes, I've heard of him...

Crowley was quite distressed by reports of Parson's activities, or so I recall reading.

I have "Sex and Rockets", but got busy and haven't finished it as yet.

Also, much of the rocketry in Robert Heinlein's SF stories came directly from Jack Parsons...

-Ben

[economic justice]

49. This silliness

I think these discussions better belong on UFO/Conspiracy/Secret Society boards and NOT on a political discussion board. All it does is make the Democratic party look like a party of kooks.

[Karenina]

50. IGNORANCE ALERT!!!

Ever heard of Christian Reconstructionism?

[benburch]

51. A party of kooks?

Which is more kooky?

Thinking that historical secret societies still wield the sort of political and commercial influence that they actually did wield in the 19th century?

-or-

Denying that there could possibly be any secretive group of people who mean to control society for their own benefit?

[BiggJawn]

52. Oh, would you PLEASE stop with the "This makes us LOOK bad" crap?

By all means, let's NOT talk about Skull and Bones. Wouldn't want the other side to get nervous, would we?

And what SHOULD we discuss to seem more worthy in your eyes? The "Less filling-Tastes GREAT" Pissing Contest between the Greenies and Deanies?

[barbaraann]

57. And what is YOUR opinion of the BBV press conference today?

n/t

[BiggJawn]

53. Where's MY advantage?

My Grandfather was 32nd Degree, Scottish Rite, AND Past Master of his Lodge.
Don't think the ways have been greased any for ME. And if they have, geez, I'd had killed myself before now if THIS is how "privelege" works!

[barbaraann]

56. I don't know about your advantage but

where do you suppose George W. Bush would be without his family connections? There was a thread about this last week. Also nepotism is rampant in DC now. Colin Powell and his son Michael are just one example.

I guess that not all Masons grease the way for all family members. I had an uncle who was a Mason and he and his wife paid for college for one of her relatives but not for anyone in my immediate family.

[Garbo]

59. Good post.

I have a somewhat similar situation....no wheel greasing for me either.

[BrotherBuzz]

64. No greased ways here, either...

but I did get a cool sword and 'gold' pocket watch out of the deal...

[Fleshdancer]

61. Secret society questions

I admit I know absolutely nothing about secret societies so pardon me if my questions sound dumb.

Are there women involved in secret societies?

Is it mainly an Ivy League/priviledged society thing?

What the hell is Skull&Bones? How do we know it's not just a bunch of frat boy idiots getting drunk and spanking each other?

on edit: What about minorities? Are they ever involved?

[barbaraann]

62. Oh, boy, there's so much info.

Here is one link to start you off:

http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/secret_societies/

Also, Opus Dei is a Catholic secret society which does have women:

http://www.odan.org/

Skull and Bones is a very elite Yale organization which only inducts 30 Yale seniors a year. (Bush Sr. and Jr. as well as John Kerry are members) Members of this organization are VERY powerful and they have begun to include women and minorities but did not for a long time. There are thousands of links on the internet to info about S&B and a book by Alexandra Robbins (who has posted here), but here is one link to a list of members:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bones.htm

You might also want to watch the video/movie "The Skulls" which is based on Skull and Bones.

And for a REALLY frightful, fanciful trip into the world of secret societies you could read David Icke's books, but then everyone would think you were nuts for sure. :-)

[bobthedrummer]

63. Col. Michael Aquino spread the darkside in the military and intelligence

population when he co-opted and took over The Church of Satan with his Temple of Set while still on active duty.
Think about that for a moment.
http://www.xeper.org/maquino/index.html
What a loser and creep. Yet he had a powerful influence in the military and intelligence fields going back to his beginning in the late 1960's.
Kinda like the Jack Parsons story in JPL as Aries mentioned earlier.
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/jack_parsons.htm

Secret societies are big in the ruling elite.

[thebigidea]

67. oh give me a break... a freakin' Col. does NOT have powerful influence

Especially ol' Eddie Munster Aquino... who did NOT co-opt and take over the CoS, he just split off with a few people, as is common in occult circles - too much ego! And when you're dealing with people like LaVey out to make a quick buck...

The ToS and the OTO are NOT out to rule the world - they're out to add degrees and silly honorific suffixes to their magick-y stage names to compensate for penis size.

[barbaraann]

68. There have been a lot of people throughout history

determined to rule the world. Some of them belonged to secret societies. Of course, we'll never know the whole truth, but I do think it's wrong to dismiss ALL conspiracy theories out of hand.

I also think it's good to keep an open mind and gather information, being careful not to download viruses from the scarier sites. :-)

[thebigidea]

69. I think I can safely dismiss THESE theories because I know the people

I know the culture, I know the dynamics involved. The OTO and ToS are harmless.

Now, Skull and Bones on the other hand... HMmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[barbaraann]

73. OK, but I just can't bring myself to trust any secret organization 100%.

Maybe 99%, but not 100%. :-)

[benburch]

74. Speak for yourself...

The ToS and the OTO are NOT out to rule the world - they're out to add degrees and silly honorific suffixes to their magick-y stage names to compensate for penis size.

How rude! Even if this were true of some people who join the OTO, it is horribly rude to belittle all of those who seek it out for spiritual reasons.

I honestly don't think you have even a clue about the process of Initiation.

[thebigidea]

75. its called a joke

"I honestly don't think you have even a clue about the process of Initiation."

Uh huh. Probably more of a clue than a Minerval... I betcha 20 bucks I can out-Crowley-quote you. As coked up and turgid as he could get, he's still one of my favorite authors. Endlessly fascinating.

love and kisses,
Frater thebigidea IX*
Adeptus Incoherent
Knight of the Incorrigble Temple
Department of Speaking-For-Himself

(send SASE for super secrets on how to make your wishes come true by eating... uh... well, maybe I shouldn't go into that.)

[benburch]

77. If it was a joke, wouldn't need to be funny?

Uh huh. Probably more of a clue than a Minerval... I betcha 20 bucks I can out-Crowley-quote you. As coked up and turgid as he could get, he's still one of my favorite authors. Endlessly fascinating.

Ummm... Where did I say that I was not an Initiate?

I only said that my membership in OTO was limited to Minerval.

I've only been a practicing ritual magician for 25 years now. I was an Initiate of the old Earthstar Lodge, which was part of a small association of Hermetic lodges that existed in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

I'm not trying to claim any great Wisdom, you understand, the portion of that commodity I seem to have been allotted is small indeed, but you assume too much from what I wrote, and I'm just pointing that out.

As for quoting Crowley, I'll happily grant you the degree of Crowley Quoter IX*

I never cared to memorize anything of his, I just meant to understand it, and take away a lesson or two.

But my point stands; you were being rather rude to people you obviously do not know very well.

-Ben

[Garbo]

65. Here is a good site....

Tells the other side of the "Masons are evil" nonsense.....

www.masonicinfo.com

[barbaraann]

66. The Famous Freemasons list is very interesting.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/famous1.htm

It looks like a lot of elite men to me and I firmly believe that if all of the powerful men in the world got together and decided to end war, poverty and hunger they could. I wish they would.

[wyldwolf]

71. Thoughts on this thread...

I ridicules most blackhelicopter/tinfoilhat/etc. theories.

The original post is a prime example of why I do.

Clinton was not Skull and Bones and so what if he was?

Clinton is a Rhodes Scholar no matter how much republicans want to pretend he isn't.

Fred Flintstone was part of a secret society. So was Howard Cunningham.

[no name no slogan]

76. If it's supposedly so damned secret

then why does everybody KNOW about these masonic groups, and their activities?

If they truly are super-secret and "control the world", the chances of us knowing about them are close to none.

Methinks you've been reading too much alt.conspiracies.black.helicopters for your own good.