Can Dean win with his tax policy?

[kerryistheanswer]

With all the focus on Dean's lack of foreign policy, people seem to forget that voters decide based on their pockebooks. Dean's tax increase is going to be a huge turnoff to the majority of voters, especially post-Nixon.

Bush won 2000 by pegging Gore as a tax-increasing big spender. The average American voter won't vote based on the budget deficit - Bush's team will come up with some ridiculous amount that the middle class would have to pay under Dean's plan and convince people to vote against it.

Can Dean overcome these attacks and convince voters that a higher tax is beneficial to them? I doubt it - Clinton didn't run in 1992 on such a platform, even though he increased taxes once in office.

[thebigidea]

1. "Can Dean overcome these attacks?" - sure, but that won't deter you

[kerryistheanswer]

3. I would support Dean if he wins...But

his tax policy is suspect. I agree with him and think tax increases are the solution to many of our social problems...But most people in this country are moving towards the libertarian way of thinking. It's quite sad actually.

[thebigidea]

5. its disengenous to use the RW talking point "tax increase" line of hooey

you know full well its about not making Bush's insane tax cuts permanent.

[kerryistheanswer]

6. That's not what I'm saying

You're obviously on the defense. As much as Dean tells people that its a tax repeal, people are going to view it as a tax increase. Do you actually believe that people will get excited about receiving less in from their paychecks, regardless of whether the Bush cut was senseless?

Most people don't read Paul Krugman. They don't care about the deficit - it's going to be a tough sell.

[thebigidea]

7. and you're obviously on the attack

"They don't care about the deficit - it's going to be a tough sell. "

so your solution would be, rather than educate them... rather than explain it... rather than offer an alternative...

uh, your solution is to give in to the RW and even use their own freakin' terminology?

[kerryistheanswer]

8. I'd love to know how you would educate them

considering that both Mondale and Dukakis failed at it as have several other candidates who said they would raise taxes.

Listen - we have the same goal - which is to get Dubya out. The tax cuts were a bad idea but even economists such as Paul Krugman - yes Paul Krugman - have said that repealing all the tax cuts would be a bad idea. Now Paul Krugman is not a RW advocate, is he?

[thebigidea]

12. I guess you're right. We should just give up and act like Republicans

[caledesi]

35. I believe that is "red-ink Republicans?" LOL! eom

[kerryistheanswer]

10. Attack??

you need to relax. I'm not attacking - just trying to have a civil discussion.

[thebigidea]

11. WALTER: "I'm perfectly calm. Calmer than you are, Dude."

I was riffing on your "defense" line.

If I'm on the defense, obviously you're playing offense.

[windansea]

14. wrong

raising taxes on the middle classes right now is a sure way to lose and lose BIG...and cool your jets with the RW smears for everyone who criticizes Dean...

[thebigidea]

15. attend to your own jets, dearie

Hell, I'm not even a Dean-type. I just hate seeing RW crap like "raise taxes" when discussing getting rid of Dubya's insane policies.

[sandnsea]

16. It's not RW crap

I'm tired of being called Lieberman and told I don't belong here because I think Dean's stand on various issues are wrong. My tax bill goes up, for whatever reason, it's a tax hike. Period.

[thebigidea]

17. you'll have to take up the Lieberman stuff with somebody else

as I don't recall doing that. I suggest the Ghost of Christmas Past, as long as you're indulging in fantasy.

[Yupster]

20. He's going to have to change some at least

He is not going to run on raising the 10 % bracket back up to 15 %. That would be insane. That would be rightly called a tax increase on the lower middle class, and percentage-wise a huge tax increase. I have confidence that he has more sense than that. Same with lowering the $ 1,000 per child credit back down to $ 600. I don't believe he can run on that.

[kerryistheanswer]

21. just ignore those comments

don't get yourself worked up because of folks like that.

peace!

[sandnsea]

23. I do

I'd just like some people to know the kinds of smears some people have to put up with around here.

[thebigidea]

25. generally, ignoring means you don't respond

pssst. LIEBERMAN! LIEBERMAN! LIEBERMAN!

[sandnsea]

27. I'm nuanced

I ignore them as personal attacks, but I don't let them slide by unanswered.

[thebigidea]

29. er? What personal attack?

[sandnsea]

31. RW talking points?

Just because people don't agree with Howard Dean doesn't mean they're spreading right wing talking points and nobody on DU deserves to have that kind of crap slung at them.

[thebigidea]

37. that's a personal attack?

Ok, hit alert and let the mods decide.

[sandnsea]

40. Oh yes

Just slides by because it isn't directed at someone. But it's absolutely intended to discredit posters, it's an attack.

[windansea]

18. ok hon

have fun selling that tax raise

[thebigidea]

24. why would you presume I'm selling a tax raise?

Do I work for the Dean people?
Have I ever posted any pro-Dean stuff?

Do I usually even TURN UP on these candidate threads?

[windansea]

26. wouldn't know

maybe you like high taxes??

[thebigidea]

28. Yes, I love high taxes! And I want to take your guns away! And kill babies

[windansea]

30. they need you

over on the gas thread

Hurry!!

[thebigidea]

38. I'm too busy raising your taxes

apparently I'm hypnotized by Howard Dean! Help me, only the nuance of John Kerry can help!

[bearfartinthewoods]

41. i can just see the hit ads now

"a vote for dean ...will cost you"

and the visual is someone handing the voter a mile for 2000.00

[frustrated_lefty]

2. Eh.

During his tenure in Vermont:

he cut income tax twice, removed the sales tax on most clothing, and reduced the state's long-term debt.

he raised the state's minimum wage twice during 11 years in office.

he created tax incentives to attract and keep new companies.

the state attained an A++ bond rating which is good for all sorts of wonderful economic stuff.

In other words, he has a record to stand on which indicates he's not a wasteful tax-and-spender.

[kerryistheanswer]

4. Yeah but Vermont is in the Northeast

many between the coasts have a less than favorable (albeit wrong) view of it. It doeesn't help that the state is smaller in population than Washington D.C.

I know you are probably sick of hearing these concerns but I hope Dean has a strategy for winning over those skeptics who classify themselves as indepedents.

Peace.

[frustrated_lefty]

9. You may want to check out this assessment

from the National Women's Alliance, they seem to present a fairly unbiased analysis of his record. Coming from the NWA, I would also guess they represent a decent cross-section of public perception. http://www.nwaforchange.org/nwa/downloads/Election_Guide/09dean.pdf

Your concern is valid, and it does need to be addressed with care. I'm cautiously enthusiastic about it. Most polls rank the economy and healthcare as being among the greatest concerns perceived by Americans, and those are areas where his record is strongest.

peace back atcha, it's a relevant concern

edited to add link

[sandnsea]

13. Snelling sunsetted them

"Snelling signed legislation authorizing higher tax rates that would "sunset" two years later. Dean, then lieutenant governor, took over after Snelling died, and the rates dropped automatically at the end of 1993."

"Dean's assertions are prompting criticism from Vermonters familiar with the state's fiscal history. "No way. That is ridiculous," said Richard Heaps, a specialist on Vermont tax law and coauthor of the Vermont Economy Newsletter, when asked about Dean's income tax claims. "He didn't cut taxes by 30 percent. We would be dancing in the street if he did."

Vermont has the nation's 12th-highest tax burden as a percentage of personal income, according to the Tax Foundation. The state's tax rate could become a major issue in the primary in neighboring New Hampshire, which ranks 49th. Vermonters will pay 10.1 percent of their personal income in state and local taxes, compared with 6.6 percent in New Hampshire, the foundation says in a study."

More.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/07/deans_tax_claims_bring_skepticism/

[frustrated_lefty]

19. He cut income tax twice more after

the sunset kicked in. And whereas Vermont may well currently have the 12th highest tax rate in the nation, it had THE highest tax rate when he first took office.

And this is bad...?

[sandnsea]

22. The article says otherwise

"The Dean campaign referred further questions to former state Senator Peter Shumlin, who was the Democratic minority leader at the time. Shumlin's viewpoint is that Dean deserves credit for ensuring that the Snelling plan on income taxes remained intact, but acknowledged that Dean did not sign the bill to cut income taxes.

"Factually, you are correct. He didn't have to sign a bill to sunset the income tax. But he had to sign a bill to keep the other ones up," said Shumlin in a reference to Dean's support for a hike in the sales tax.

Indeed, Shumlin said he is still angry with Dean for raising the sales tax, putting Vermont at a disadvantage with New Hampshire, with no sales tax. "I am still enraged," said Shumlin, who nonetheless is supporting Dean's candidacy. "If Howard Dean had agreed with the Democrats, we would have reduced the sales tax on the working poor and kept in place the high income tax on those who can afford it. It is the same argument he is making against Bush, frankly."

[frustrated_lefty]

32. I stand corrected

Some of the references I've dug through claimed 3 tax cuts, the majority claim 2. Snellings sunset provision occurred in 1994. Dean then cut income tax again in 1999, at the same time he eliminated sales tax on most clothing and shoes. :p

[sandnsea]

36. The web site claims 3

Dean is fast and loose with the truth in alot of areas. Keep it in mind.

There was a sales tax cut and an income tax cut in 1999, pushed by the legislature primarily. Even some of these tax cuts didn't benefit the people as much as they could have. A larger decrease in the sales tax with a smaller corporate tax cut would have helped the people alot more.

[sandnsea]

33. Hellooo!!!

Where'd ya go?

[caledesi]

34. Who said said anything about tax increases?

I know the RW talking points have been that Dean will raise taxes. I guess they interpret that from the face that * cut taxes with that great tax return <sarcasm>.

Who the hell gives people a "tax return" during war? Never heard of it. Traditionally, people are supposed to sacrifice during war.

Plus. *'s tax returns are bogus. Did your property taxes go up? Are you paying more for college tutition? Bet the answer is yes.

"Borrow and spend" - get it?

Check the history on Democractic presidents, because last time I looked, we had a surplus.

[thebigidea]

39. whoah, be careful

apparently, if you call that a "RW talking point," its a personal attack.

Either that, or its a RW talking point.

[quaker bill]

42. Yes, because it is the only responsible course

Watch the dollar fall on international markets. Note the large amount of foriegn sales of dollar denominated securities this week.

The only way to secure the needed foriegn investment needed to finance the Bush* deficit and sustain foriegn investment in US securiies markets will be to raise interest rates.

Higher interest rates slow the economy.

Without a tax increase, the deficit will grow, interest rates will rise, securities will fall in value, and the economy will slow.

Bush* economic policy is a disaster waiting to break loose, the only question is when it will happen. Recent market dynamics suggest fairly soon.