Dean.. Saddam Quote Flip Flop

[windansea]

“The capture of Saddam has not made America safer.”

Claims he never said Saddam was a danger to US …

“I never said Saddam was a danger to the United States. Ever. Saddam was a regional danger. I believed that he had weapons of mass destruction. I believe we could have controlled him. I believed that the proper way to remove him should he need to be removed was through the United Nations and I never wavered from that.” Fox News Channel, 12/10/2003

“There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies.” CBS Face the Nation, 9/29/2002


“Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country.” Dean speech, “Defending American Values – Protecting America’s Interests,” 2/17/03


NBC/WSJ POLL SHOWS THAT DEAN'S GRIP ON REALITY IS NOT THE ONLY THING SLIPPING…

In an overnight poll taken by NBC and the Wall Street Journal, the capture of Saddam Hussein did not significantly help George Bush in head-to-head match-ups. However it clearly hurt Howard Dean, who dropped nine points further behind Bush in a single night. Dean’s lack of foreign policy credentials and leadership clearly affected his electability when the public is reminded of the importance of the issue.

If the next election for president were held today, and George W. Bush were running as the Republican candidate and Howard Dean were the Democratic candidate, for whom would you vote?

on 12/14/ 2003

George W. Bush 52


Howard Dean 31


12/13 2003


George W. Bush 51


Howard Dean 39

[slinkerwink]

1. POOP

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. you really have to do better than that

Dean sure as hell has to.

[WilliamPitt]

16. Right? Isn't that some weak-ass shit?

Poop? I laugh in your face. Try that shit after the convention. Damn.

[Scott Lee]

83. Weak ass. Like repeating oft refuted antiDean lies. Indeedy doo!

Try THAT shit after convention time. Unless you're in the throes of one of your cyclical apologies, Mr. Pitt.

[VelmaD]

18. Totally agree...

this "poop" thing has got to stop. It's juvenile and pathetic and condescending and it's getting old fast.

[deutsey]

47. Well, it just grows tiresome, I guess

I responded to the same kind of post earlier today, as I'm sure others have responded to other similar posts I've seen.

Not that I'm saying you're aware of that, and I don't necessarily believe "poop" is the best response, but still.

[arcane1]

5. well said

:toast:


am I crazy for thinking that on this site we should be attacking out OPPOSITION PARTY??

:crazy:

and please, nobody give me that "we must prepare for what Rove throws at us by addressing it now" bullshit

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. It's hard to find consistency there

I'm trying....

[TexasPatriot]

3. well, you've got 2 stories going in there

i'm not playing ball on the first one. i think it's semantic.

on the second i think it's supposition as to why his numbers tanked head to head (and the gallup poll had him tank by less than 9...) it 'may' be that people think it's an unelectability thing, or it may be that people are seeing the negative attack ads against him by other dems. If that's the case - then expect a LOT more dem attack ads in the coming weeks.

[windansea]

11. semantic??

this is clear cut flip flopping...the quotes speak for themselves!

[TexasPatriot]

57. my point is

that i fear that the quotes are being used to imply an intent and meaning that MAY not be there. I've sure as hell seen that crap against Clark over the last 3 months. Perhaps i used a poor choice of words - but semantics was probably right. What i probably could have said was i 'fear it may be' rather than 'think'.

If it's a legitimate problem - and i trust there are enough people out there that will make the case either way - then i'll stand corrected. But I'm NOT going to get into flip-flop arguments because, as a Clark supporter, I've seen them to be assinine exercises in absurdity.

I still think the second is the more important part of the post, and the better discussion point.

fair enough?

[liberalnurse]

70. Hey, your voice sounds so familiar.......

I' know I've heard that voice before......right here.....

[windansea]

78. can you hear me now?

you have no clue who I am

take your best shot though!

:)

[windansea]

89. heh

:nuke:

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Semantics?

I don't think so,

I never said Saddam was a danger to the United States. Ever. Saddam was a regional danger.

Another quote...“There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies.” CBS Face the Nation, 9/29/2002

Threat? danger? Semantics? NOT!

Entry Word: danger
Function: noun
Text:
the state of being exposed to injury, pain, or loss <they are seeking a place where children can play without danger>
Synonyms: hazard, jeopardy, peril, risk
Related Words: menace, precariousness, threat; emergency, exigency, pass; precipice
Idioms: dangerous ground, thin ice
Contrasted Words: safety; exemption, immunity; defense, guard, protection, safeguard, shield
Antonyms: security

Thesaurus Symbols
* generally or often considered vulgar
|| usage restricted; consult a dictionary for more information

Pronunciation Key

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy

[bowens43]

43. HOw does this differ from clark's many flip flops?

For the war , against the war. For the Republicans, against the republicans, for the bushies against the bushies etc.

[windansea]

36. check the dates on the polls

the other canditates have been attacking his positions for weeks and the unelectable theme has been around for months.

[Padraig18]

6. Feel the LOVE, baby!

LOL!

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jacobin]

8. Pay no attention

Draining the time and resources of Dean supporters who have to go sweep up after the drivel and show time/date/context. He has no interest in what Dean's position is. He merely wants to create doubt in the minds of casual Dean supporters.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. the drivel is Dean's

Please show us the consistency in his statements.

[David__77]

14. We don['t need consistency.

Who cares about that? Certainly not the voters. They care about a certain something else. That's proven by the current occupant, as well as Schwarzenegger and other strange characters. I don't care either. I care about policy, not words. And I care about winning.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. I really hope you really don't believe that

especially regarding an issue of such "of the moment" prominence.

[oasis]

15. Real DUers don't call folks freepers over polite conversation.

[Scott Lee]

9. POOP.

[rucky]

10. Dupe of a dupe of a dupe of a dupe

[Scott Lee]

17. as well as poop of a poop of a poop of a poop

[rucky]

46. The DUPE thread from 3 hours ago debunks it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=930628#930672

But if at first you don't succeed...

[Egnever]

13. I wish he would get over his habit of saying

I never said.....

Its a bad habit. However I would like to see the full context of all of those quotes before I set them in stone.

Even with a full quote though he does need to stop saying I never said....He speaks off the cuff far too often for that. For me though one of his biggest apeals is his willingness to come out and say what he feels at any given moment instead of weighing the political consequences. If he would just lay off the I never said it schtick he would be fine. Hell he will be fine anyway but he wouldnt need to recover as often.

Such is life. Still love the Doc!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. It's more than that. There is a conceptual conflict here

If "Saddam Hussein is a menace" and "the world would be a better place" with him not in power, then it contradicts saying his capture "has not made America safer".

This kind of contradiction makes it very hard to say we will be fine with Dean as our nominee.

[mzmolly]

22. America = The entire world?

No, don't think so...

See part of the world is in the Middle East, and part of the world is not.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

Last I checked, America was still part of planet earth

the world, the global community- and all that.

[Egnever]

34. horse crap

Sadams threat ended the day we took over baghdad. He ceased to be a threat to america at that point. unless you think a guy in a whole with a pistol thousands of miles away is a threat to you somewhow.

If he had said all these things in the last couple days you might have a point but with them spread months apart they hold completely different meanings.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

42. Right. Dean needs time to change his mind on things

I forgot we're dealing with the ever evolving Howard here. It all makes sense now. As long as we don't nominate him to lead our party.

[Egnever]

49. You have a problem with that I see

I dont. Times change situations evolve the surest way to screw yourself is to ignore the changing situations on the ground arround you and not adjust your plan to reflect them. Its one of the main reasons bush has so screwed himself in this farce war we are in.

Course its not really about this at all is it its just another oportunity to release some of that pent up dean hate is it not?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

73. I have a problem with inconsistency

especially the kind which will lose us the election.

[mzmolly]

20. More cherry picking quotes out of context to make Dean 'appear'

inconsistant. :toast:

Though, when one actually reads the interviews in context the case goes *poof* Oh well, another day another ...

[windansea]

25. post them (NT)

[mzmolly]

26. Supply the links to your sources, and I shall (NT)

[windansea]

48. dates and locations of quotes listed in original post

if you want to refute them or place them in context be my guest.

[mzmolly]

58. I'm waiting for the links, I feel it's the obligation of one making a case

to infact prove it. Until then there is nothing to refute. It's simple flame bait.

[windansea]

62. again...quotes speak for themselves

If you feel they are wrong or taken out of context in such a way that they do not contradict each other...you prove it!

[mzmolly]

63. Have you gone 'scrounging' for quotes from all the candidates

to try and build a case that doesn't exist? Additionally, your refusal to post the links "speaks for itself". :hi:

[windansea]

65. the quotes speak for themselves

I didn't put these words in Dean's mouth.

prove them wrong if you like...place them in context

time for dinner

:hi:

[mzmolly]

67. You place them in context first...I don't have time to disprove "nothing"

:hi: enjoy your dinner.

[dave29]

66. here you go sir

GOV. HOWARD DEAN, D-VT: Not quite yet. There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies. The question is, is he an immediate threat? The president has not yet made the case for that.

I think it may very well be, particularly with the news that we've had over the weekend; that we are going to end up in Iraq. But I think it's got to be gone about in a very different way. It really is important to involve our allies, to bring other people into the coalition, to get a decent resolution out of the U.N. Security Council.

And if Saddam persists in thumbing his nose at the inspectors, we are clearly going to have to do something about it. But I'm not convinced yet and the president has not yet made the case, nor has he ever said, this is an immediate threat.

In fact, the only intelligence that has been put out there is the British intelligence report, which says he is a threat but not an immediate one.

[Droopy]

23. I'd be interested in seeing a serious counter to this

Instead of people just saying poop. That doesn't help your side any when you do that, it just makes you look like you can't refute what's being put forth.

[mzmolly]

24. Tis been refuted daily here...

:boring:

[WilliamPitt]

27. Not this specifically

This is new. Find me the threads where this has been refuted. Just do a search for 'poop' and I'm sure you'll find them. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

28. Yes it has, with the exception of the December quote which is consistant

with Dean's position.

Additionally, menace and danger are well ... different, thus a portion of the post refutes itself.

Let's see "Dennis the DANGER"... That would have brought far more viewers ey?

[WilliamPitt]

31. Are you really going to try to parse "menace" and "danger"?

Please say you can do better than that. I'm still waiting for the other refutations, btw.

[mzmolly]

32. I'm sorry, that's what the OP did....

Can't we all do 'better' really?

Pizza's done I'll check back later :hi:

[WilliamPitt]

35. Apparently, we can't

:shrug:

I'm fairly adept with the analytical skills, and I am seeing serious contradictions posed above. I'm also seeing you fail to address them. Go back to 'poop.' That's safer ground.

[mzmolly]

59. *I* never posted *poop* and there is nothing to refute...

you know it as well as I. When the OP posts links to their sources, then it will be clear what the real story here is.

:hi:

I find it odd that a Kerry supporter would bring up 'flip flopping' about the war? I think I'd stay away from that subject personally.

[Scott Lee]

81. Poop is as poop does.

When these stupid antiDean tidbits keep popping up after having been exposed and refuted time after time after time, they officially become "poop". That is the only term that properly describes them, and that is the way they shall be labeled by many of us that are tired of repeating ourselves to those with their fingers in their ears and their eyes closed.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. that particular entry

will only muddy the search- considerably too given the recent profligate use of the (ahem) 'word'.

[dave29]

33. Saddam can be an

economic threat
or a potential military threat (ie he may invade another country, requiring us to become involved)
yet at the same time not be a current or immediate physical DANGER to the United States.

what you have here is more parsing, and it's what killed Al Gore. It's so sad to see it coming from other Democrats, who know WE ARE NOT ANY SAFER with Saddam out of Power.

We took out Saddam and invited in Al Queda - I'm sure the Iraqi people will be thanking us for generations to come.

[GregW]

37. POOP

[WilliamPitt]

38. Puke

Weak weak weak.

[Egnever]

39. Whatsamatta will?

your boys standing got you down you gotta buy into this crap?

Another one sentance snipet taken out of what we have no idea, and you are willing to jump on it with aparent glee? Aparently Kerry's standings have you feeling the preasure eh?

I know you can nexus why dont you throw us all a bone and provide the full quote for us and see where we really stand on this? Or are you content to play the snipet game?

[dave29]

40. I really wanted to like you Will

:dunce:

[WilliamPitt]

41. I'm on the edge of my seat

[Egnever]

44. not to mention

content to play the snipet game.

[WilliamPitt]

45. Refute the data

[Egnever]

50. Provide the source

[rucky]

51. Refuted in this DUPE thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=930628#930672

then died...so I thought

[Egnever]

53. Hah!

I guess we wont see will agsain on this thread will we?

[rucky]

61. oh, and by the way.....poop

This post has been cut & pasted at least 3 times i've seen today from 3 different sources. I wonder who sent out the memo?

I guess we're only opposed to propaganda that's directed at us.

[windansea]

64. not really (NT)

[dave29]

54. You are on the edge of something

ok, lets do this then.

GOV. HOWARD DEAN, D-VT: Not quite yet. There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies. The question is, is he an immediate threat? The president has not yet made the case for that.

I think it may very well be, particularly with the news that we've had over the weekend; that we are going to end up in Iraq. But I think it's got to be gone about in a very different way. It really is important to involve our allies, to bring other people into the coalition, to get a decent resolution out of the U.N. Security Council.

And if Saddam persists in thumbing his nose at the inspectors, we are clearly going to have to do something about it. But I'm not convinced yet and the president has not yet made the case, nor has he ever said, this is an immediate threat.

In fact, the only intelligence that has been put out there is the British intelligence report, which says he is a threat but not an immediate one.

GLORIA BORGER, U.S. News & World Report: Governor, what exactly does the president then have to prove to you?

DEAN: I don't think he really has to prove anything. I think that most Americans, including myself, will take the president's word for it. But the president has never said that Saddam has the capability of striking the United States with atomic or biological weapons any time in the immediate future.

My question is not that we may not have to go into Iraq. We may very well have to go into Iraq. What is the rush? Why can't we take the time to get our allies on board? Why do we have to do everything in a unilateral way?

It's not good for the future of the foreign policy of this country to be the bully on the block and tell people we're going to do what we want to do.

We clearly have to defend the United States, and if we must do so unilaterally we will. But I think the time now is for getting the cooperation of the Security Council and our allies.

SCHIEFFER: Well, Governor, what, in your mind, would justify a strike on Iraq?

DEAN: Well, first of all, a strike may be justified. What he's got to say, what the president has got to say is that Saddam has atomic or biological weapons and has the means to deliver them to ourselves and our allies. That case -- he has never said that, to my knowledge, nor have any of his surrogates.

SCHIEFFER: Well, does he have to have the means to deliver them to us? Or what if he had the means to give them to another terrorist group who could bring them into this country in a suitcase?

DEAN: Well, that's correct, that would certainly be grounds for us to intervene, and if we had so unilaterally, we could do that.

But, Bob, my problem is not whether we're going to end up in Iraq or not.

Saddam Hussein appears to be doing everything he can to make sure we do go into Iraq. My problem is, it is important to bring in our allies.

Foreign policy in this country is dependent on us working with other countries. And I think the president got off on the wrong foot when he was simply talking about "Let's go in there, we don't care what anybody else thinks, we're going to do it."

I think things have improved in the last couple of weeks, as he's turned to the United Nations. We should have done that in the first place. And we need to continue, as his father did, to build an international coalition to go after Saddam and make sure he does not have those weapons of mass destruction.


You guys are crucifying Dean for not saying "immediate" on Fox News. That's fair and balanced, Will. Fair and balanced.


edit to add fair and balanced link: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/30/ftn/main523726.shtml

[killbotfactory]

52. He said Saddam wasn't an imminent threat

Though he might be a threat, in the sense that China, or NK are a threat.

Context matters.

[killbotfactory]

55. Here's the full context

"There’s no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies," Dean said on CBS’ "Face The Nation" via satellite from Austin, Texas.

"The question is, ‘Is he an immediate threat?’ The president has not yet made the case for that. I think it may very well be, particularly with the news that we’ve had over the weekend, that we are going to end up in Iraq. But I think it’s got to be gone about in a very different way."

September 29, 2002

[many a good man]

56. My connotation...FWIW

Saddam had the intention to inflict harm to the US and the region, but did not possess the means.

Dean's position, imho, was that we had no right to invade unless the threat was proven to be imminent. International channels were therefore more appropriate. Congress enabled the initiation of an unjust war by its abdication of its responsibilities.

I disagree with Dean in that I don't think even his neighbors considered him much of a threat, given 10 years of sanctions, no-fly zones, crumbling military, etc.

[sujan]

60. poop

The holy hand grenade.

[windansea]

87. nuke

:nuke:

[molly]

68. It's a fact that he flip-flops depending on which

way the political wind is blowing. Do any of his supporters/followers care?

[mzmolly]

69. You must be joking. LOL

"Simon says"...read quotes in context in order to get the truth. :*

[arewethereyet]

71. do you think it will fly when he does this stuff to other countries ?

I know he's not stupid but Geez does he ever make some bone headed comments.

The reason that no one wants to hear is that he can't control his temper and no one who is pissed possesses a brain that works properly.

This not the guy to have in the Oval office.

Edwards never has this problem, he's in command of himself and those around him.

You know what I'm saying about anger is true, there's no sense denying it. Averyone else knows it too and he's tanking as a result.

He may yet get the nomination because love tends to be blind but what does a loss in 2004 do to help the cause ?

Just think about it. Rant if you want but think about it later.

[molly]

72. He is not fast on his feet nor quick to make fair

logical decisions. He is full of anger and rage and a hair trigger temper. Would I feel safe with him protecting my country? Nope.

[arewethereyet]

74. foreign diplomats would eat him alive

Picture what Vlad Putin could do.

[_Jumper_]

75. Will Dean say anything to boost his chances of being elected?

:scared:

[windansea]

76. obviously yes (NT)

[_Jumper_]

77. 11/04

:nuke:

[molly]

79. A candidate cannot do anything to change his history

his actions - his words - UNLESS he can reinvent himself. Dean has basically done that. Once his records become public knowledge, he will become fair game.

[mzmolly]

80. He could invoke the word "Simon"

would that help?

Dean hasn't changed his position, Kerry clearly has...

[windansea]

86. correct

but Kerry is not the one quoted here

[mzmolly]

88. Thankfully...

For Kerry.

And thankfully for you quotes taken out of context are of interest to some.

[radicalson]

82. Very Weak

You have been reduced to quoting Fox News. Is this the best you can do?

[windansea]

84. Fox quotes??

sorry no..these are quotes of Dean...if they are wrong let me know

[Hoppin_Mad]

85. "Nattering nabob of negativity !"