Sad day at my son's high school

[Lurking Dem]

where his math teacher has tried to singlehandedly destroy the Bill of Rights.

ACLYouth was made to stand in front of the class (before the final exam which he was already nervous about) for 5 minutes while she degraded him, calling him a "disgusting human being" for not standing during the Pledge of Allegiance.

I have a call in to the principal and the ACLU but had to leave messages.

THIS is what we are fighting. THIS is why we need to get the Republicans out of Dodge. THIS is a microcosmic example of what is happening around this country every single day.

THIS is why every little thing you do to promote Democratic candidacies, no matter how small, is vitally important.

[Guaranteed]

1. That is absolutely DISGUSTING.

Do you have any more information? Where was this?

[Lurking Dem]

31. A high school in Tennessee.

Wonderbread Bush Country school but the prinicpal and majority of the staff are great. THIS lady has me livid.

[Myra]

141. "Wonderbread Bush Country school"

I know this isn't a funny subject, but that's a great answer.
And true.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Ben Franklin

would chew her butt out over that if he were here today. So would Voltaire.

[Guaranteed]

3. That lady is not an American. nt

[HFishbine]

4. E-mail addresses?

For the principal? Teacher?

[Lurking Dem]

33. I have ACLU-TN contacting them

They have had his Gifted coordinator talk to me and are arranging to move him out of her class and into another for next semester.

I don't want to inundate the school if they are going to cooperate - it's the teacher that's a problem.

[HFishbine]

78. Okay

That's probably best. Just let us know if you need some inundation.

[creativelcro]

5. Give us names and phone numbers and we'll call in too..

Without that, I don't believe it... Sorry...

[Guaranteed]

15. I remember seeing that kind of stuff

when in junior high school. I remember one of my teachers in particular would get really upset if someone chose not to say the pledge.

[roguevalley]

107. this crap is settled already in the courts when I was a kid. The Jehovah

kids either stood outside or in the class and were
not required to speak. They still aren't. This teacher
is a bitch. They should be EXTREMELY sanctioned for
this unethical act.

RV, 26 years a teacher.

[Lurking Dem]

34. You don't believe it?

Yeah I stayed up all night thinking of crap to make up to post on the board because I have so much free time.

[King Coal]

45. I believe you Lurk.

I hope that so-called teacher gets her ass handed to her.

[mac56]

64. I believe you too.

This is horrific. If you could share a phone # or e-mail addy for that school, I'd be happy to call.

[TLM]

74. I believe you.... because I've been there... done that.

And in response i caused so much shit with my school that the California Teachers association was covering me in their newsletter.

Lets just say my old high school no longer makes kids say the pledge, and no longer allows religious folks handing out bible pamphlets on campus.

After about three weeks I had the principle, vice principles, and counselor call me into a conference… first they tried to intimidate me, implying I’d be kicked out of the school. As soon as they said that, I took the recorder out of my pocket and set it on the desk… still on record.

The looks on their faces as they realized that I’d just recorded them threatening me was fantastic. They were all quiet so I asked if we were done, they said yes, so I took the recorder and I got up and left. They never fucked with me again.

[Blitz]

77. There are DUers whose stories I might doubt

LD is not among them. If, as she says, the school administration is acting responsibly in reaction to the teacher's completely inappropriate behavior, then she is right to not subject them to the attack of angry DUers. It might make you and others feel good to yell at the principal but, if he is already doing what he can, it probably won't do LD or her son a bit of good and may, in fact, make their lives worse.

That being said, this teacher's behavior was atrocious and, if I were in your shoes, I would insist that, at a minimum, the teacher be required to complete some civics courses at her own expense (ok, the union would never allow that) and maybe be suspended until she does so (I don't know if this is feasible in this school and the education of your son and the other children has to be taken into account).

That being said, I hope that your son is OK.

[rbnyc]

132. That's a little unfair.

You want him to out his son's school on the internet as a prerequisite for you believing that he’s not making up a story. I don’t know any parent who would post on the internet, especially in a heated political forum with crazy rivals, where his or her child can be found 5 days a week.

What’s the point of your accusation anyway? Are you trying to say that you don’t think this kind of thing happens? Or are you trying to say something personal?

[donco6]

189. I'm a school administrator . . .

. . . and I totally believe it.

[prolesunited]

6. That is absolutely absurd and outrageous!

Please let us know what develops. Never knew humiliating a child in front to the class was part of the educational process.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. The schoolboard

better call her up on the carpet.

[donco6]

190. Yes.

He should call the principal, superintendent and school board. Preferably in that order, if he really wants to have something done.

[Lurking Dem]

35. The Gifted Coordinator spoke to me

and is appalled. Good sign. This was so blatant they know their backs are to the wall on this one.

[mb7588a]

7. Contact the media,

that gets people talking real quick.

[OneBlueSky]

8. just out of curiosity, how old is your son? . . .

and what grade is he in? . . .

[Lurking Dem]

37. My son is 14

and a Junior. (He skipped 2 years.)

[LoZoccolo]

9. Is this a public school?

You think he wouldn't get in trouble if he called her a disgusting human being?

[Lurking Dem]

40. Maybe I should suggest

they expel her? Hehehehe. Nice thought.

[grannylib]

11. Great...way to educate our kids about our country and what it stands for..

yes, please, pass along info if you like...I would be happy to make some noise about this!

[Guaranteed]

17. Me too

This kind of thing, more than anything else, leaves me seething.

[ACK]

12. Too common -- my wife is a teacher --

This is why I am so ardent and some people here think over the top about civil liberty issues.

This is disgusting.

People do not see the connections.

We say its ok to limit speech or freedom of expression here and there then wonder why this sort of thing happens.

It is so tough. My wife is a teacher in a middle school and she has a girl that does not do the pledge of allegiance. She would never do this to a child.

BTW, she does NOT recite the pledge either but she has an easy out. She is still a British and not a US citizen.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. My Wife's A Teacher Too

I already posted on topic, just wanted to know we're in the same club!
The Professor

[YNGW]

13. What is a "ACLYouth"?

Just wondering.

[Maeve]

16. Lurking Dem's son's DU handle eom

[Lurking Dem]

42. That's the handle he uses here on DU

but school has been too much to allow him time to post this year.

[Mairead]

14. That woman needs to be sacked forthwith. The very least punishment

she should get is to be laid off without pay for a month, but sacking would be more appropriate.

[LeahMira]

21. Won't happen...

she should get is to be laid off without pay for a month, but sacking would be more appropriate.

... although she will probably feel some heat from the administration for a few days or weeks.

I'd make her do a twenty-page research paper on the relationship between the Bill of Rights guarantees and the individual's right to not say the Pledge so she has to actually learn something over her holiday.

Meanwhile, this climate of fear and mistrust (with us or with the terrorists stuff) is about the only thing that's "trickling down" to the general public, making a lot of us more likely to say or do things that under better circumstances we wouldn't.

[Lurking Dem]

44. Hedy Weinberg said that too.

She runs ACLU Tennessee. She said no way would this woman get fired but she should get a strongly worded reprimand in her file. They MIGHT could "force" her to retire since she's about there anyway.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. Sickening

She should be DISMISSED!
The Professor

[Kolesar]

20. They suspended a Moslem from the NBA for not singing the National Anthem

I think they told the player to sit out a few games or gave him a fine because he would not sing the US national anthem because he considered singing it to be against his religion.

[lazarus]

26. details?

I'm a major NBA fan, and don't recall anything about this.

[stevedeshazer]

28. I remember

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, Denver Nuggets. I don't think he's in the league anymore.

http://www.tsa-usa.org/what_is/MahmoudAbdul-Rauf.html

[scisyhp]

29. He just signed for Ural-Greyt of Russian Elite League

in the city of Perm.

[Lurking Dem]

46. Oh the irony!

We have to go to Russia now to enjoy "American" freedoms, eh?

[stevedeshazer]

52. No kidding, so ironic

Thanks, scisyhp, interesting.

[blondeatlast]

120. Y a gotta love it.

Wait, no, you don't. But the irony is bittersweet.

So sorry, LD. This is reprehensible.

[never cry wolf]

110. Hunh

I apologize in advance. I thought at first that your comment was some kind of freeper put down (not singing anthem = commie) but I googled and it's true.

[lazarus]

138. Ah

See, the original message was wrong. He wasn't punished for not singing, nor for being Muslim.

League rules state that you have to stand "in a respectful manner" during the playing of a national anthem, US or Canadian. He was told to follow the rules repeatedly, and he didn't. So he was suspended. He claimed it was against his religion. Funny, no other Muslims in the NBA have ever had that problem.

[Kolesar]

168. Refused to stand, as opposed to refused to sing our National Anthem

I stand corrected. Either way, it is a conformist rule. When Reagan became president, I quit standing for the National Anthem. My eyes had been opened to what xenophobic bullshit is within the message of patriotism in the USA. That was a tough epiphany for me, being an Eagle Scout and all.

It is left to us as individuals to figure out how much forced conformity is insufferable.

[wildwww2]

147. I`m not an NBA fan and I remember it. Goes to show you how well the

Major media filter the news to slant the fascist state way. You did not see it because of Kobe or Lacy or some other trivial BS besides a war crime based on more relevant BS.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[dsc]

22. I would really like some details here

I find this really difficult to believe. Even in MS, which is no liberal wonderland, I knew I couldn't pull a stunt like that without severe consequences falling on my head. I suspect there is some more to this at the very least.

[July]

62. Have to disagree

Some of us actually know people who've been on the receiving end of teacher/administrator rants about the pledge. And about other things. There are among educators some who get carried away with their little bit of power over others' lives, and they'll use it inappropriately when they like, concerning not only the pledge but also any other issue they choose. As a parent, I've seen way too much of that sort of thing from petty despots with a B.A. in education (no flames, please, both my parents were teachers -- good teachers). They'll pull the same crap on parents if we let them.

[ACK]

66. In Ga teacher told one jewish student she was going to hell

Southern Baptist teacher told a Catholic boy he was a Mary worshipper and should convert.

One of them is now the Vice-Principal.

The other is head of her department.

Go figure.

This was in Southeast GA. I was a substitute teacher. The jewish girl was a mess during class and I asked her what was wrong when class ended. She absolutely went to pieces.

I wanted to go to the school board and the administration but then she told me what happened to the Catholic boy when he did that.

They broke the windows of his car, covered the inside with gas and set it on fire.

Funny, it did not make the papers. But everyone knew about it ....

[LeahMira]

100. Parents have the power...

... if they choose to go to the newspapers about whatever is on their minds.

Just a little north of here, sort of in the Philadelphia area, there's a ruckus over removing a nativity scene from the holiday display in a public school. http://www.nbc10.com/index.html

I think that if parents have serious problems with the comments from some of these teachers you would be hearing about it, at least locally. Unfortunately, I think a whole lot of parents don't have a problem with it, and the current administration has created a social environment in which these kinds of feelings and opinions, that used to be socially sanctioned, are now coming out of the woodwork.

In the "nativity" issue, 90% of the people who voted said that the school was wrong to remove the nativity scene. (You can still vote if anyone's interested.)

[ACK]

104. I am sorry, you do not understand

This is not Altlanta or Marietta or even Savannah or Charleston we are talking about.

This is Southeast GA in a backwoods town.

You raise a ruckus like that and you are likely to get killed, or maybe your house will burn down mysteriously with you in it.

I am old enough to remember the last lynching in that place.

That little girl knew better, and I did not put her at risk.

I grew up about 15 minutes from hell. I got out as soon as I could.

[pansypoo53219]

23. how retarded

the pledge was not an issue past kindergarten in my schools. IT'S FOR GRADE SCHOOLERS! maybe it's because i didn't go to a public HS, but i do not remember doing it at all in school. but then i am a northerner.

[bigendian]

24. You must live in Williamson County. n/t

:kick:

[Lurking Dem]

47. GRIN!

That was a longshot, huh? <smirk>

[Skittles]

25. um..........................that teacher is a sadist

and should be fired; she is the one who is DISGUSTING.

[Corgigal]

27. My 13 year old daughter loves this crap

in fact, she just got in trouble again yesterday for arguing with a teacher over freedom of speech. Teacher told her that she was older (duh) and knows more (questionable) and that is why my daughter, who was defending another student in class, got pulled on the carpet yesterday. Teacher wouldn't sign her pass to get to class late but kept her after class basically bitching at her. I'm waiting near the phone now to see where this crap is going.

But of course, it's not all the bad because next year (unless I can beg her to move out of here) she goes across the street to the H.S. where police pull guns on kids.

[Love Bug]

32. Has your daughter read "Stupid White Men"?

She might get a kick out of the fact Michael Moore ran for the school board when he was a senior in high school and WON! The principal (who was Moore's nemesis) then had to suck it up and treat him with more respect the rest of the school year!

[Corgigal]

36. My little red head

would probably do it too. I just hope these damn schools don't break her spirit. I want her to buck some, it does the world good.

[LizW]

30. I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it

Just write a letter to the school board and ask them to educate their teachers that it has been the law in the United States for 60 years that public school students may not be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Send them a copy of the Supreme Court decision in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnett. Tell them that the teacher tried to humiliate and degrade your child and that if she doesn't stop it immediately you will get the ACLU to file suit on your behalf. And you will win, because the whole weight of law is on your side.

I know it makes you want to scream and tear someone a new one, but you can afford to be cool, level-headed and calm, because you're right, the teacher is wrong, and the school board is going to have to admit it.

[cirej2000]

38. Yeah this is something that even Repugs would not approve of

it'll make them look bad if they did. And it's against the law.

[Lurking Dem]

48. Thanks, Liz!

I appreciate the case citation and will be sure and use it.

[July]

57. And, in a later case,

the Supremes determined that one may not be forced to stand, bow one's head, put hand over heart, or otherwise change one's position during the recitation of the pledge. Some teachers insist that students who don't want to recite the pledge must stand, but forced standing, etc., is also unconstitutional. I believe the later case involved Virginia or West Virginia and was decided in the early 60s, but I'll try to find the case reference.

[donco6]

191. Yes, keep your cool and you'll get better results.

And mentioning the ACLU AND including a court decision definitely gets results!

[greekspeak]

39. High school is SUPPOSED to prepare students for the real world

How can this be, when teachers act more childish than the students? This teacher's behavior is outrageous. I can see why some of my fellow dems/lefties want to pull their kids out of public school.

My sister just got out of high school, and the administration decided at some point that she was a "bad seed." So, they would create reasons to call her out of class to punish her. They nagged my stepmother incessently at work about trivial issues, until she told them to stop bothering her over nothing.

Funny, the principal of the school that did this to my sister was MY guidence councilor when I went there. He did all he could to discourage me from going to college, including lying about deadlines. I had to work with my college directly, with no help with paperwork, etc. I think I showed him...I am in a PhD program now! My point is that there are some rotten administrators and teachers out there that are NOT helping our failing schools.

[smirkymonkey]

51. Unfortunately, it appears that she

is preparing him for the real world. Very sad and sickening - what are we turning in to?

I really fear that this country is becoming the Fourth Reich. Liberals are the new pariahs.

[Guaranteed]

58. I think we're going to have to leave

if Bush gets re-elected. We're already getting demonized. It's only going to get worse.

I'm not going to want to stick around for the "international blowback," either, if you get my drift.

[kath]

134. Umm, that shoud be "if Bush gets *re-selected* (or elected)", since

he hasn't been elected once yet.

[BiggJawn]

98. I was going to say that. Watch what you say-watch what you do..

And repeat after me: "Welcome to WAL-MART!"

I really think schools today are trying to make our kids cannon-fodder consumers. just grist for the War-mill...:-(

[Ficus]

41. holy crap

I'm going to donate to the ACLU again for this. WOW.

[Kamika]

43. sue the sh*t out of the school

There isn't a lawyer alive who wont jump at this case..

[Blade]

49. This is disgusting...

it's a person's right to stand or not to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. The teacher had no right to yell at the student.

I would also try to get the teacher expelled for calling the child a "disgusting human being."

This makes me sick. The ACLU is getting some money from me very soon.

[rslag]

50. Do you have the big picture?

It appears you jumped to the conclusion that the teacher is a Republican. Maybe she's a FDR, JFK era Democrat, and doesn’t want traditional American values kicked up her a$$ by some kid. Again, do you have both sides of the story, or are you just whipped-up-angry with a hair trigger?

[smirkymonkey]

54. Oh dear, here we go again...

What is it with you people anyway? Also, you make no sense.

[Guaranteed]

56. What's wrong with traditional American values?

And what the HELL is wrong with the 1st Amendment?

[ACK]

59. Freedom is an American value

Freedom of speech and expression.

When did forcing a child to take a pledge of allegiance become part of our core American values?

The right to exercise the freedom is the real American value.

[Lurking Dem]

61. Big Picture

What Democrat would call a CHILD a "disgusting human being" in front of the entire class, minutes before his final exam?

Aside from that I live in a county proud of the fact that the Democrats have finally reached a whopping 32% (although many of THEM are closeted.) I know pretty much every Dem at the school because I am on the County Party's Executive Committee.

[rslag]

101. What [Human] would call a CHILD a "disgusting human being" in front of th

btw, Dems don't have a lock on human kindness.

So what, your county is 32% Dem and 68% other. You still haven't proven the teacher is NOT a Democrat let alone a Republican.

To investigate your claim, did you attempt to:
-Talk to the teacher?
-Have you been able to talk to the principal yet?
-Talk to other students in the class?
-Talked to any of the students’ parents in the class?

If what you claim is true, than you need to follow through and see that the teacher is exposed and punished. Public humiliation and name calling is WAY over the top.
But just remember when dealing with kids, there are truths and there are truths as seen through their eyes. FIRST cya with facts, THEN shout it from the mountaintops.

[Cheswick2.0]

105. yes, democrats do have a lock on human kindness

and on the core values of democracy apparently.

[rslag]

106. Like the KKK

Watch out how you use the broad brush approach, you may make a mess out of things.

[specimenfred1984]

171. Dems = KKK? WTF?

Democratic Underground is the site you are posting on. Just a reminder since you've clearly lost your way.

[rslag]

183. NO! "Dems=KKK " is not what I said.

My point is that Dems don't have a lock on every human kindness debate.

Anyone who can't acknowledge a relationship between some people in the Democratic Party and the KKK was raised under the same power lines a certain Byrd is perched on. Senator Robert Byrd (D) W. Virginia to be specific. And he gets elected over, and over, and over again.
Where's the OUTRAGE!!!!

[NNN0LHI]

63. Tell me your definition of traditional American values n/t

[July]

65. It's a traditional American value to respect freedom of conscience

and the kid isn't "kicking (traditional values) up her ass" to do what the Constitution allows him to do.

Furthermore, Lurking Dem was rightfully upset at her/his child's public humiliation by a person of authority who should have known better. I don't call that "whipped-up angry with a hair trigger."

Somebody's overreacting, and it isn't Lurking Dem.

Edited to put "traditional values" in parens -- why was the bracketed phrase deleted?

[MisterP]

91. DU's program considers brackets as HTML tags

[Lars39]

75. Topic or political views of the teacher doesn't matter: teacher abusive.

And manipulative: this was right before a major test. Teacher needs to be fired, tenure or not.

[ProfessorGAC]

82. Yawn!

Same old song.
The Professor

[Zomby Woof]

109. Freedom of speech is a traditional American value

The Pledge is not.

You don't have the side of the story that really matters here: History.

The child hardly "kicked up" anything in the teacher's ass. The teacher degraded the student - inexcusable in any circumstance - just because the student had the temerity to exercise his conscience and reject a brainwashing tool like the Pledge.

The 1st amendment protects that student's right to not recite the mindless Pledge. The Supreme Court upheld it in the 1940's. Nothing is more Apple Pie than the Bill of Rights.

The Pledge of Allegiance, without the christo-deity in it, was written by a socialist clergyman in the 1890's. Put that "up your ass" and smoke it.

[NNN0LHI]

122. Don't know what we would do here without you ZW

No shit.

Don

[Zomby Woof]

142. Thanks Don

I love crispin' the freeper morans. :smoke: :nuke:

[blondeatlast]

121. Hi.

Bye.

[leftyandproud]

53. teacher should be fired...no warning.

I'm sure the NEA will agree in this case.

[noonwitch]

55. Go religious on them, quote from the sermon on the mountain about oaths

Matthew 5:33-37. Nothing scares school people like religon.

[Lurking Dem]

60. Would sound kinda funny

coming from a Jew, wouldn't it? <g> Of course......Jesus was a Jew.

[LeahMira]

102. Good grief!

You're Jewish? Threaten to pull in an anti-Semitism charge if this teacher has never called a Christian child "despicable." Start mentioning ADL in the conversation along with ACLU. :evilgrin:

Actually, that would probably be carrying things a bit far, but don't even imagine that the teacher isn't aware that your child is Jewish.

[funkyflathead]

67. Why can't he just stand up?

Not like he has to say anything.

In repuke land you'd better be careful how you protest.

[cirej2000]

68. Because that's his free speech statement

Standing would accept allegiance to a country that right continues the occupation of a land it invaded illegally!

Why would he want to do that!??!

Or maybe he was just being onery.

Who knows! I like the first explanation...SUE, SUE, SUE!!!!!

[Guaranteed]

84. Not to defend the teacher's behavior, because I'm not.....

The teacher and what she stands for are exactly what is wrong with America today (look at the very first post on this thread).

However, I disagree with your manner of defense of his behavior.

I believe that in pledging allegiance to the flag, you're not pledging allegiance to the government, but, instead, to your country. Whatever freepers say our flag represents, what it really represents is life, liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness for all. These are the founding principles of our country, and they are righteous. And while I wholeheartedly support everyone's right to sit, stand, or stick their fingers in their ears while the pledge is being said (no one should ever have to pledge allegiance to anything, no matter what it is), I think that we ought to remember what the flag really symbolizes, and not see it as a personification of those who are in power at the moment.

Don't let the freepers steal our flag, and don't deny the principles that it stands for simply because our current government doesn't uphold them.

[July]

70. See my post above

Supremes say one cannot be forced to change one's position (by, for example, standing, bowing head, putting hand over heart) for the pledge, either. I'm looking for the case now.

[ProfessorGAC]

81. Better Be Careful?!?!?

Are you sure that's what you meant to say? Free speech should only be a right if it's convenient?

Free speech is only a right if you say something that's ok with the powers that be or the tyrannical majority?

Think about what you're saying!
The Professor

[blondeatlast]

123. I was thinking that too, but couldn't put it into words.

The government has yet to OFFICIALLY trample my free expression. The vocal minority has done it for them, or so they think. I won't let the gov do it, I won't let society, either.

What a terrible argument . . and unAmerican to boot.

[TLM]

69. You do not need to just call the ACLU and the pincipal...

Grab your local phone book and look up your local news affiliates.

Call them up and ask for the "news desk."

They'll likely hand you off to whatever reporter is there at the time. Tell them what has happened and how disgusted an outraged you are etc.... that you tried to call the principal and he wouldn't return your calls... and that you are contacting the ACLU.

You may have to call a few stations before you find someone who will cover this, but I'll tell you when the media starts showing up at the schools to talk to this "teacher" and the principal things change real f-ing fast.

They'll dick you around as much as they can, but as soon as they know somebody is watching... and this is getting them bad pres, they'll change their tune.

If you want to get real clever, get a micorcassette recorder from radio shack... about 20 bucks. Then drop that in your pocket and go to the school before calling the media... talk to the teacher and the principal and make sure the recorder in on record.

If they think you're just some kid's mom who doesn't have any power, these assholes will very likely say some shit that will hang them.

Then you go to the media as I said above and let them know you have a recording of the jerks berating you as well. Nothing local media likes more than recordings of stuff like that.

Let the reporters confront the teacher and principal with rec0ording of their shit... they won't do it again.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. SUE HER ASS!

She cannot get away with that! She had no right to do that to your son and she needs to pay for it. :grr:

[shanti]

72. don't stop at the school pricipal

go to the school board! this should not be tolerated!

[Fleshdancer]

73. Let me know if you need anything

I'll write letters, make phone calls and if this escalates to the point that you decide to get a lawyer, I'll donate to the cause.

I'll also be happy to write a letter of encouragement to your son. To have the intelligence and maturity to stick up for what he believes at his age is not a small thing. Sometimes though, teenagers need to hear this message from people other than their parents...I know I did at that point in my life.

I think it's safe to say that we're all proud of him here at DU.

[Lurking Dem]

76. Update

Hedy Weinberg from ACLU-TN spoke with the principal who called me right after.

He has gotten with my son's Gifted Coordinator and rearranged his schedule (which they generally can't do without umpteen meetings, if then) so he won't have to be in her class next semester. He is meeting with the teacher this afternoon.

Pieces of his quotes: "can't apologize enough", "no way to treat children", "embarrassed", "This will be resolved"

I made it very clear that I was contemplating a civil case on tort (emotional distress/verbal abuse f a child) against the teacher.

After his phone call, I got a call from the 11th grade Vice-Principal who was still unaware of everything that had transpired. She was appalled and complimented me on my cool head and my handling of the situation so far.

The school is doing everything right so far. Let's see what they do to the teacher in question.

[Fleshdancer]

79. Great news!

I'm also impressed with how you're handling this...is it hard not to give into the temptation to go up there, get in the teacher's face and rip her a new one?

Congratulations and keep us updated on what happens to the teacher.

[Lurking Dem]

97. A new one crossed my mind.

I'm still having the occasional vision, in fact. Of course it would solve nothing (except satisfaction) but it is a nice fantasy.

Thanks for all the kind words in your posts.

[ProfessorGAC]

80. Most Excellent

Sounds you like you handled it very well.

I still say utter dismissal from her position. Failing that, suspension w/o pay.
The Professor

[FlaGranny]

85. Maybe education would be good.

Require the teacher to write a report on the meaning of the constitution and constitutional amendments. Maybe she'll see where she went wrong, but I doubt it. Even if she did GET it, that still wouldn't excuse her from berating that child in front of the class.

[Lorien]

167. Good idea

an oral report by the teacher for a school assembly, plus a public apology, is in order.

[cally]

83. Sounds like you handled this well

and the administration is also acting on it. But what about the test and the grade. I would insist on allowing your son to retake the test and ask an administrator to review any grade the teacher gives your son. Do this before final grades are issued.

The conduct of this teacher is appalling.

[July]

86. Happy for you, Lurking

I've been looking for information about the S.C. decisions, though I'm sure your ACLU is on top of it. But I'll post a little here, it was pretty interesting reading.

www.firstamendmentcenter.org had a good discussion, including this quote from Robert Jackson, Chief Justice at the time of the West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette decision:

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

BTW, the decision was issued on 6/14/43 -- that's FLAG DAY, IN THE MIDDLE OF WWII, folks!

www.nyclu.org/wtc8.html also has a good discussion of the issue, noting that students

"are entitled to remain seated quietly in the classroom and cannot be removed or expelled from the classroom, or otherwise subjected to discipline, harassment, or retaliation for their refusal to salute the flag." That's based on Goetz v. Ansell, 477 F. 2d 636 (2d Cir. 1973); also Frain v. Baron 307 F. Supp. 27 (E.D. NY 1969); Matter of Bustin (10 E.D.R. 168, 1971)

Some guidelines that put out by boards of ed. and state attorneys general(including Tennessee atty. general) that I saw seem to suggest that either standing or sitting may be the option offered, but I think they may be taking liberties with the actual S.C. decision (Goetz, I think), which seems to be specifically about the right to remain seated. I couldn't locate the actual text of the decision about changing position during the pledge, but I have read it before, and it seemed clear that one could not be forced to stand. Lawyers out there, where do we find the actual text of a decision?

Anyway, it's great that your school is acting responsibly. I hope that includes doing something about the teacher's gross abuse of her position.

Cheers to you and ACLYouth!

[blondeatlast]

125. Good to here that they are supporting you.

Many administrators would cower and cover their asses until the media arrived.

[lotteandollie]

87. I think they were both wrong

the teacher was wrong for singling out your son. It's his right to not stand, and she should know and respect it. SHE needs to set the example. Spending 5 minutes chewing him out was even worse.

However, your son should be taught what a great country this is. Standing for the pledge of allegiance is a way of showing respect to a wonderful country. I suspect he already has an idea, maybe you should spend some time with him and teach him. Sounds to me like he is looking for attention.

[ACK]

88. Maybe her son already knows and that is why

He does not need to stand and go through some ritual of the allegiance to prove it.

Otherwise, he would complain about being asked to take pledge but instead do nothing about it.

That is not what the child did. This child understood the greatness of America lies in the freedoms that we all cherish. This teacher as you point should understand this.

This is coming from a former teacher and someone currently married to a teacher.

[July]

90. You are making assumptions about Lurking's son

We don't know why he doesn't want to say the pledge, and the reason is irrelevant, as well. He may share your views about this country, he may not, but refusing to say the pledge isn't necessarily criticism of the country (although we ARE permitted to criticize in a FREE country). There are many reasons people don't like saying the pledge, including religious prohibitions against oaths, dislike of compulsory group rituals, opposition to the "under God" phrase, the view that the pledge is flag-worship, AND, for some, the desire to criticize what the flag represents.

In this country, free expression is an important part of any greatness the nation possesses, and the Constitution does not require us to prove love of or loyalty to or respect for the country. Supporting freedom of conscience is more "American" than saying the pledge, as far as I'm concerned.

[Lurking Dem]

95. My son loves his country.

He stopped standing the day we invaded Iraq. It is a peaceful political statement, it is his right, and it is belief in this country that allows him to do that that makes him hope he can one day soon stand and recite the pledge without feeling like a hypocrite.

Te Vice Principal actually congratulated me on allowing my son to stand by his beliefs no matter what I may personally feel about it.

[PatGund]

111. I understand.....

I've been making it a strong point to use the original version of the pledge - minus the "Under God" part.

[lotteandollie]

149. You are correct, I am making assumptions.

I can't deny that. I made lots of them. I assumed his son was not a trouble maker, that he was a reasonably good student, that he accurately told the story to his father, who accurately relayed it to us. I'm assuming that he didn't try to disrupt the class in other ways on other occasions and that the teacher over reacted and messed up. Yep...guilty.

[Lurking Dem]

152. Don't forget the one

where you assume I'm a guy.

[GiovanniC]

170. LOL n/t

[blondeatlast]

173. ". . .HER son . . ."

It is to your advantage to read though a few of the posts. Had you done so, you would have saved yourself from making false assumption about ACLYouth. ACLYouth/LD's son is a very bright kid and frequent contributor to the DU boards.

[Cheswick2.0]

108. any robot can pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth

It is a weird thing to make everyone do on a daily basis. A half hour discussion on the rights and responsibilities of citizenship would be a much better tool for showing someone what it means to be an american.
I refused to pledge the flag starting at age 13. I was called a commie by my homeroom teacher.
But don't dare tell me I don't know and love this country.

[cedahlia]

112. Agreed. Standing and pledging allegiance to the flag

is about about as meaningless as a sticking a little American flag the roof of your car. I never stood for the pledge when it was recited every morning in homeroom. This does not mean I care about this country any less than those who did stand. For that matter, those who did stand and recite always sounded like a bunch of barely awake drones going through the motions...there was never any feeling behind the words. Bottom line...reciting the pledge like a robot in homeroom does not make you a patriot. Caring about the fact that the Bush administration is sending this country and the Constitution it was founded on to hell in a handbasket shows more sign of being a patriot than participating in empty gestures does.

[TexasSissy]

89. Child abuse to call a child names like that. But.....

why would your child not stand during the Pledge of Allegiance to his country? Is your family protesting the country or something?

Sure, we all have a right not to stand....but when in Rome, it's a good idea to do as the Romans do, unless it compromises your principals. It's called getting along and being a part of the community.

If I were a parent, I would instruct my children to give their country the respect it is due, and to stand and cross their hearts during the Pledge of Allegiance. This is a wonderful country that has given me many opportunities unavailable in other countries. Also, it is good for children to learn respect to authority and country. IMO.

Teacher - should be disciplined for child abuse. Child - should be disciplined for failing to show respect to country and failing to obey the teacher (unless, as I say, there is a principal at issue, such as disdain for the country or something).

[Lars39]

93. I'd say he showed more respect than needed to the teacher.

He didn't walk out, he didn't yell back, he didn't back talk; all in all the student showed admirable restraint in dealing with a screaming, abusive adult.

[Guaranteed]

94. .....

"Child - should be disciplined for *failing to show respect to country* and failing to obey the teacher (unless, as I say, there is a principal at issue, such as disdain for the country or something)."


I don't THINK so. That's fascism.

[LifeDuringWartime]

114. fascism?

i think you nailed it.

[TexasSissy]

117. No, not fascism.

I don't think there's a constitutional guarantee that you don't have to stand and participate in school activities dealing with allegiance to the country. There is a guarantee he doesn't have to say "under God." But not the other.

But I am speaking more of what's good for the juvenile (and a juvenile he still is). It's good to teach children and juveniles to respect authority and mind their teachers, unless there's a darn good reason not to (unethical, illegal, against one's principals, etc.). The parent author didn't state what the family or the son's objections to saying the pledge were. Are they not citizens, for example? Unless there's a good reason, the kid should participate and not be encouraged to be a smart alek and stay sitting, "just 'cause I want to." That won't be doing that kid any favors for the future.

The teacher made a mistake by making it such an issue. The other kids would have taken care of the matter by shunning him or teasing him, had the teacher not made such an issue of it.

The kid needs to learn to be part of the group and work as a team, for his future welfare, his future employment, his future family, and his future as a citizen.

Good punishment would be to read a thick book on and then be grilled about the history of the country, and learn what the words of the pledge really mean. And maybe read some books on what it's like in some other countries, for comparison. He should know all these things, if he's going to take a stand on not respecting his country.

[DrWeird]

126. That's funny.

You seem to suggest that you love your country.

Yet you haven't the foggiest idea about what it stands for.

[blondeatlast]

128. I think you may have made a wrong turn on the information highway.

ACLYouth LOVES his country, he's been on the boards with Lurking Dem for some time now. He understands American government and is an incredibly critical, thoughtful thinker.

He doesn't need to learn anything related to government, I can assure you of that.

[July]

135. Is a Supreme Court decision a "constitutional guarantee"?

If so, YES there is a constitutional guarantee that you don't have to stand and participate in school activities dealing with allegiance to the country.

You are mistaken if you think otherwise.

The child does not need or deserve punishment, shunning, or teasing. The child, as an American, is free NOT to participate in the ritual of the pledge of allegiance. Read the whole thread, and, if necessary, read up on the Supreme Court decisions about this issue. Your arguments don't hold water. No citizen is required to say the pledge. End of discussion. We American citizens are not legally required to submit to coercion regarding the pledge. Your view that saying the pledge represents respect for the country is nothing more than YOUR VIEW. In America, we are free to disagree, and to act upon our own views.

Again, your notion that we are not guaranteed the right to refuse to stand and participate in the pledge is MISTAKEN. Read up on the actual Supreme Court cases and learn about the rights of all Americans.

[blondeatlast]

137. And if his priest is molesting him . . .

If his parents are beating him . . .

Right. Right you are.


"The kid needs to learn to be part of the group and work as a team, for his future welfare, his future employment, his future family, and his future as a citizen."

"Good punishment"? The vast majority of us think he did nothing wrong. The teacher deserves that thick book and the grilling.

Right. Right you are.

/sarcasm/OFF.

[shugah]

139. you must be a produuct of public education!

i read an article in harpers a couple of months back that suggested that public schools are indeed, exactly as you suggest--that a child in public school "...needs to learn to be part of the group and work as a team, for his future welfare, his future employment, his future family, and his future as a citizen." in other words, the goal of public education is to turn out drones. it was a great article! but the mindset promoted has a lot more to do with the future benefit of the people who need drones.

"The other kids would have taken care of the matter by shunning him or teasing him, had the teacher not made such an issue of it." and you think this is a good thing? y'know what? nevermind! i don't think i can communicate with you! but i do think you should read a good THICK book about the history of this country.

[Crunchy Frog]

143. You're whole post

sounds like an excellent definition of facsism.

[calimary]

161. Excuse me, but it seems the teacher punished this young man enough.

Seems to me the kid knows enough about patriotism to be in the upper room with Sam Adams and a few other miscreants and Boston Tea Party tea throwers, and going with Johnny Tremain to run their errands (kids' book my son just finished reading) as they plotted against the British invaders.

Those who would quash the right of free expression - for ANY reason - are NOT Americans. Perhaps there is a gulag somewhere near the former Soviet Union where you'd enjoy a visit? Or there's always Cuba. However, I suspect if we all wait long enough, the bushies will turn this into one humdinger of a totalitarian country.

I, too, have mixed feelings about pledging allegiance to a country I no longer recognize as America.

[donco6]

194. Actually, you're wrong.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't have to recite the pledge because of their position that pledging or swearing is unbibilical. So there's one group that we know of.

In my opinion, reciting a pledge that's already of questionable merit in the anticipation that it will help the student to "work as a team" is wrongheaded. It simply teaches conformity, which is a lesson most school kids get plenty of already.

[Lurking Dem]

96. Wow.

My child has ample respect for his country. He does NOT believe that children should be forced to pledge (to G-d or anyone else) or that he has no right to his opinion of the current government.

He is considering a career in public service. He does Model UN and Youth Legislature. He is active in the county Democratic Party. He shows respect for this country by protesting the current President, protesting the war, and supporting the troops deployed.

[shugah]

140. good luck with resolution of this, Lurking Dem!

i'm also the parent of a liberal teen in a conservative bastion. i have a lot of grey hairs, but damn! i am proud of my son!

luckily we've had teachers who are just thrilled to see some original thinking, a few closet liberals, and no wingnuts. not to say the vast majority of his teachers are not conservative - they just are not fanatics, and know to keep political belief out of teaching.

let us know what happens next!

[Ladyhawk]

99. When in Rome do as the Romans do

When in Nazi Germany do as the Nazis do...

The boy has a right to not say the pledge for any reason, but he's made me think about the next time I might be asked to say the pledge. I really don't support this country the way it is...it's getting awfully fascist out there. "Conformity" and "not rocking the boat" are what the Germans did when their country started turning to the dark side.

[TexasSissy]

119. Comparing saying the pledge to sanctioning genocide?

Oh, come on. Get real. Maybe someone can cite something, but I don't think there's a guarantee that a juvenile doesn't have to participate in class functions dealing with the Pledge of Allegiance. It's religious freedom that's guaranteed. The kid needs to learn to participate as part of the group, unless he can state a cohesive reason why it infringes on his rights under the Constitution not to. This is very different from the "under God" phrase in the Pledge. This is not an ACLU case.

What are the parents concerned about more? Not saying the pledge or teaching their son some actions that will benefit him in his future job and family life (learning to compromise, get along, work as a team, be part of a group). There's nothing in the parent's post that says WHY the kid didn't want to say it. He just didn't feel like it, it seems to me. Not good enough. He's a kid. The teacher's in charge of the class. Period. The parents don't like it...they have a right to home school him.

[Lars39]

124. Critical thinking skills will serve the student much better than blind

obedience. The teacher was clearly not using her critical thinking skills when she berated and humiliated the student for his action/inaction on standing for the pledge. She was abusive and should be dismissed. Teacher's aren't gods and shouldn't teach if they cross the line and become despots.

[Lurking Dem]

130. From the ACLU

Do we have to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
No. The courts say that students have the right to sit silently during the flag salute and Pledge of Allegiance as a protest against government policies (such as the death penalty or abolishing affirmative action) or in opposition to the words of the Pledge.



Almost 60 years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that a compulsory flag salute (Pledge of Allegiance) violated an individual’s constitutional right to free expression. As long as you do not disrupt the pledge, you may refuse to participate. You do not need your parents’ permission to opt out of saying the pledge.

So you are, in fact, wrong.

[Crunchy Frog]

146. "The kid needs to learn to participate as part of the group"

No, in this country we are individuals, not part of some sort of collectivist Borg entity. Are you sure you're living in the right country? Their are some excellent countries out there that don't have that pesky belief in individualism, if it doesn't suit your tastes.

[diamondsoul]

116. Stuff and nonsense!

The boy's reason for choosing not to stand is nobody's business but his. HE knows why he chose not to do so and one of the founding principles of this country is his right to make that choice!

No way would I "punish" my child for failing to obey an illegitimate demand on her person.

[ACLYouth]

178. Actually...

In public high schools in America, there is no rule or law stating that students must show "respect" to this country. Nor are there any such rules or laws in Tennessee, Williamson County, or my school.

My teacher did not instruct me to stand for the pledge, so I would not actually have been disobeying her. Rather, AFTER the pledge was over, she made me stand up and proceeded to yell at and berate me in front of the class for about 5 minutes.

I have not stood for the pledge since the day that the Supreme Court declared Bush the winner of the 2000 Presidential Election. I will not stand for it as long as he occupies the White House.

I respect my country. I am thankful every day for the freedoms I enjoy, and my choosing to exercise these freedoms, no matter how I choose to do so, is Constitutionally protected.

[Walt Starr]

182. I'm coming out of my self imposed hiatus from DU to make a single post

I am very proud of you, ACL Youth. You give me hope for the future of our nation.

I now return to the oblivion of cyberspace lurking...

[Catherine Vincent]

92. How harsh!

I can understand if the teacher was upset but he/she didn't have to degrade a child like that because of a freaking piece of cloth! If this happened to my child, I would demand from the school that she apologize in front of that class for what she did.

The teacher took it too personal!

[redqueen]

103. What an outrage

I'm sorry you had to go through that... I can hardly imagine how incensed you must have been hearing that someone in such a position of authority would treat your son that way.

Even worse, she's setting an example for the children she teaches. She really should be forced to do a report on why what she did is wrong, and read it in front of the students she subjected to her uncontrolled outburst. After that they can fire her.

Tragic to see people demanding we ignore the law, and simply reinforce conformity over thought in our homes. This is truly displaying a fundamental disrespect for what America aspires to be. :(

I'm glad however that the school seems to be cooperating fully at this point. I just hope they realize that no matter what the teachers' punishment is, the students that witnessed her little breakdown need to have the situation clearly explained -- they need to understand not only that she was in the wrong, but why.

[Lisa]

113. on the bright side ...

This is going to be quite a learning experience for everyone. Any student who is subjected to this kind of treatment ... or sees a friend going through it ... is NEVER going to forget.

A long time ago, a friend of mine who was confined to a wheelchair was excluded from an important meeting at school by a group of people who decided to hold it midway up a flight of stairs. They beckoned me to join them ... I looked at her, and she looked at me ... and that day I decided that I would go and get my PhD, so that I could make damned well sure that this kind of crap would not happen in my classroom.

[blondeatlast]

129. Amen, amen, amen.

[Lefty59]

115. Pledge

The kid should just stand up & go with the flow. There are some issues to "dig in" on, and some things to compromise on. This high schooler should just ride it out & compromise. When he gets out of high school, then he can make a statement over something as seemingly trivial.

[Lars39]

127. This wasn't a trivial matter; it is worth fighting for.

[Stuckinthebush]

136. I agree...go with the flow

Just don't make waves and do what the others are doing...he'll go far in life doing that.

Also, if a teacher starts citing the Bible in class and evangelizing, he should keep his mouth shut and go with the flow. A little scripture never hurt anyone.

If there is a kid who is being picked on and bullied because of his or her difference, your son should also just walk the other way. That's none of his business, and he might just get picked on too. Just go with the flow.

When he gets into college, and there are teachers or other students who tell him what is right and what is wrong, he should just go with it. The people who end up critically analyzing their world are the ones who end up in the soup lines for goodness sakes! Just go with the flow.

When he gets into a job after college, he should look the other way when his boss slaps the secretary on the ass. That is none of his business. Also, he shouldn't make waves when the highly qualified black guy is passed over yet again for the new rich white kid with the MBA from Yale. Just go with the flow.

When he gets older and he finds out one of his friends is gay, he should stop all contact with that guy because we all know that if you associate with a gay guy, then you are assumed to be gay. He just needs to go with the flow on that one - nobody will support his friendship with a gay guy!

Oh, and if that guy wants to eventually marry his life partner, your son should never make a public statement about how it would be best if our country allowed gay marriage. Hell no...that would mark him as a looney! Just go with the flow......

Just go with the flow....

Just go with the flow....

Just go...................................

[blondeatlast]

118. That's child abuse in its nearly purest form.

It should be a criminal matter.

Get the SOB.

[Myra]

131. Lordy. A friend's son was just tormented by a teacher for the same thing.

Quite the orchestrated effort here.
I admire any kid, or adult, who has the courage to
withstand/sit that harrasment.

[Sugarbleus]

133. Lurk, this is EXACTLY right!

We don't suffer so much in the west with that kind of thing, but it's coming slow and steady--it has a different face but the trend has the same goal. CONTROL.

There is something insidiously and abominably WRONG in this country. I'm still appalled at that school that brought cops w/guns into the school to terroize the students!!! We MUST fight this sick establishment no matter where we find it. Whoever wins the Dem. nomination has my vote. Sorry for your son's experience
Hugs to him :hug:

[LWolf]

144. This is a legal time bomb.

Decide what you want the administrative/district response to be, and then flex your legal muscle. You'll get it.

[Plaid Adder]

145. Wow. No matter how you may feel about the pledge,

you should never call your student a "disgusting human being" even in private, let alone in front of the class. Yikes.

Yeesh,

The Plaid Adder

[Lurking Dem]

148. 'Nuther update

I have now gotten the whole story from my son (the ACLU had him write it all down while memory was fresh in case we end up in court later) and all I can say is....wow.

I won't go into many details but my son did not just stand there during this exchange - he informed her what she was doing was illegal. At one point he actually handed her a copy of the First Amendment which he took out of his AP History book. She wadded it up and threw it in the trash.

Who is it on DU that always says, "If I had any more irony in my diet, magnets would stick to my head"???

That delightful turn of phrase keeps running through my mind.

ACLYouth also informs me he has not stood for the pledge since the (s)election of Bush. I had no idea.

[DuctapeFatwa]

150. Good for him! And good for you!

You should do something very nice for yourself, just as a reward for having raised such a fine young person.

:toast:

[Lurking Dem]

151. Thanks, DF!

Hey! We finally agree on something! :hug:

I don't know how much I had to do with how he's turning out but it feels like reward to me just having him around in my life. I'm truly blessed.

Shabbat Shalom and Happy Chanukah

[DuctapeFatwa]

158. LOL! Salaam, Shalom, Pax Vobiscum, Shanti, and Happy Hanuka

to you! :party:

[calimary]

162. She wadded it up and threw it in the trash?

And she's a teacher in an American school? SHEESH!

She should find a nice totalitarian country and move there.

[CO Liberal]

165. Maybe She Could Get a Job at Bob Jones University

Or Liberty University - that sorry excuse for a school run by Jerry Falwell.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

155. Of course

there's also the thousands of civilians being murdered for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with freedom.

"if you protest in Iraq you will be shot"

[mac56]

156. Then why are you shaming her son for doing it?

"As a member of the Armed Forces, though you haven't offered it, you are very welcome for our continued protection of your rights to NOT pledge Allegiance to this country if that is your wish."

You contradicted yourself, chum.

What's more American than the freedom to choose for yourself?

Welcome to DU, by the way.

[July]

160. If you want thanks, back up your words

Can students "think as they wish" and "speak as they wish"? If that's one of the rights you defended, then you must (logically) support their actually doing so, even when they do something you wouldn't do.

[0rganism]

163. So, do you think the teacher's actions were justified?

When someone doesn't do what you want, do you feel the appropriate remedy is to single them out publicly and call them names in front of their peers? Is that appropriate, in your opinion?

And please restrict your answers to civilian interactions outside the armed forces, which have different membership rules and benefits than public schools.

Thank you for your public service. Be sure to check on your veterans' benefits prior to voting next year.

[Lurking Dem]

172. Thank you for fighting for my son's right

not to stand.

[pezcore64]

154. ...

Im from Kentucky and while I was in school we stopped saying the pledge when we were in 6th grade. We never did it in High School. I did have problems with my high school though. I tried to start a socialist club(to counter the democrat/republican clubs) and got denied no matter what i did. they finally said 'sure , you can have it, but you have to find a staff member thats a TEACHER to endorse it'. which of course i could not find...nobody wants to get persequted by their employer and i dont blame any teacher for not stepping up the challenge.
They also had organised prayer sessions in our school gym, but I do believe it was something that was optional and usually only took place when something tragic happened(IE somebody in the schools death).

*shrugs*

I just find it amasing people still say the pledge these days. Like I say, i havent said it since i was in the 6th grade and im 22 now ;)

[Hippo_Tron]

157. One teacher I talked to...

Requires his kids to stand but does nothing if they mock the pledge. This, however, is way over the line and the teacher should be fired.

[July]

159. "Mock" the pledge?

A teacher permits students to mock the pledge? I don't think that's protected, though not participating in the pledge is. Or do you mean that they are mocking it by not saying it?

As for requiring standing, as I have posted before, it's unconstitutional -- although lots of teachers and schools try to enforce this as their own "fair" solution to the "problem" of free expression.

Could you clarify whether you mean mocking or not participating?

[0rganism]

164. "I fledge a grievance to the slag"

"of the screwnighted skates of a marathon"

You don't go through 12 years of public school saying the same damn thing every day without coming across variants.

[mdguss]

166. Sue the crap out of the school:

I'm no lawyer, but even to me the layman this seems like an open and shut case. Suing this school would accomplish this: get the teacher fired so she cannot treat anymore students in the same awful manner, and send a warning that school districts better be prepared to pay up when their teachers cross the line.

Fight the good fight, and show these right-wing nuts that you won't be intimidated by them.

[blondeatlast]

174. My 6 yo has no idea what the words really are, or what they mean.

I think what he repeats every day is closer to what you have said than the actual text.

I think we should all be proud of ACLYouth; and a big :toast: to LD for raising a true American!

[David__77]

169. WOW! That's really bad...

I never had that happen to me. I do recall being taken aside in school once to receive an "off-the-record" speech from a teacher about my political views, which I immediately discounted. But this is really, really bad. No need to be intimidated by such a bully.

[Capn Sunshine]

175. so, how about an update , Lurkingdem?

??? what's the latest?

[Lurking Dem]

176. Nothing happened with the school today.

It was only a half day. ACLYouth had his APHistory final (would bet he did okay on that!) and now they are off for Winter Break.

I exchanged email with ACLU-TN and we are discussing what points we should insist on. It would be probably be pointless to take this to court if the school agrees to everything we think should happen. If that's the case, I may pursue a civil case against the teacher for emotional distress/child abuse.

We have time to think about things over the break and these are decisions best made with cool heads and rational thought.

I am going to achieve this state by leaving on Sunday for the Mayan Riviera where I plan enjoying a clothing optional lifestyle with a pina colada in my hand.

[Capn Sunshine]

177. A civil case

that might be interesting, and could attract national attention.Not to mention , a large enough punitive damage recovery could pay for some college. :)

[alcuno]

192. Hi Lurking Dem, let me apologize on behalf of a fellow math teacher.

What a disgrace to the profession! I know you are thinking about the best course of action, but let me give you an idea of the teacher's thoughts. Teachers hate getting into trouble because there is such a huge audience; the student body, their parents, the School Board and administration, and other community members. My guess is that right now this teacher is twisted is knots. Good!

You wrote earlier about your son being moved from this teacher's class and that is a good thing. I hope that you continue to ask the question of what will be the punishment for the teacher because, after all, one thing I assume that you want is to protect other students. The administration will say that they cannot discuss personnel matters with you, but you can insist that there be some visible consequence.

A civil case may sound good now, but it's a long time frame. I would look for more immediate results from the district. Will there be a disciplinary hearing? As a union officer, I've sat in on them and they are a very unpleasant experience.

[ACLYouth]

179. Thanks you guys...

I just wanted to thank everyone who posted on this thread for the support that most of you have given to me in this matter.

I have a great love for this country and the freedoms that I am entitled to. The Constitution ENTITLES me to my freedom of speech, religion, expression, peaceable assembly, and protest.

To all of those with the belief that a student loses his rights when he enters school, you are mistaken. Yes, the freedoms of speech and expression are restricted. HOWEVER, it only restricts things that are crude, vulgar, and otherwise detrimental to the learning process.

I chose to exercise my freedom "to petition the government for a redress of grievances," as I have chosen to do every school morning since that day in December of 2000 when the Supreme Court put Bush in the White House. I will continue to exercise this freedom until November 4, 2004.

Once again, I thank all of you who support me in this, and to those who think I'm a despicable terrorist, I won't lose any sleep over it. I get that all the time. :evilgrin:

[DrWeird]

180. Stick it to the man.

Go get 'em.

[RainDog]

184. That teacher was abusive, plain and simple

It doesn't matter why she felt she had the right to call a student a "disgusting human being."

She has no right to say that to any student for any reason.

ANY reason.

As far as not standing since the soft coup...I'm right with you there.

Some people in this country are so mindless that they cannot understand that other Americans may have issues of conscience when it comes to the appearance without the practice of those things which are the founding philosophy of our nation...no matter how flawed the practice since the beginning.

As far as learning respect for authority...well, I make sure my children learn respect and also learn to question unearned or abused authority. To do any less is to do a disservice to your child, imo.

btw, I grew up in Nashville and attended a public school. My Latin teacher took me and a friend out into the hall because we were talking to each other during class.

The teacher was the wife of a minister. She told my friend that there was "hope" for her because my friend attended the same protestant church denomination that the teacher attended. but as for me...well, I attended another protestant church...unfortunately for me.

My father made sure that teacher knew she had overstepped her authority...just as this teacher has done now.

...and a note of irony.

that same teacher was chosen as "teacher of the year" at a later point. So much for teaching a child values...if a teacher who is so stupid and or unable to separate her skewed religious beliefs from her disciplining of students..

In your case, your teacher sounds to me like she's more than a little bit in need of an education herself.

You are obviously an excellent student, which is to your advantage in a situation like this.

I hope all works out well for you and your family and your school, and that the school system gets a chance to receive a little enlightenment on the bill of rights...which I will still practice no matter how much Bush and Ashcroft try to destroy it.

[bpilgrim]

187. APPLAUSE!

they hate it when you arm yourself with knowledge... no one can take that away from you :toast:

if you are allowed to write a story on your expeiance, begining since 12-12-2000 i would love to post it on my web site.

if your interested you can post it here...
http://globalfreepress.net/submit.pl

:hi:

peace

[Wetzelbill]

181. wow, complete madness.

this country is worth fighting for. We need to really get moving. Frightening.

[littlejoe]

185. I have an interesting little story to tell you.

My grandpa was a good, clean living, hard working family man. He was not a Catholic, but he raised his family Catholic, according to my grandma's wishes.

One day, while my father and uncle were in Catholic elementary school, the nun they had for a teacher told the class that, if you weren't Catholic, you would go to hell.

My father stood up and told the nun that she was wrong. God wouldn't punish his father because he wasn't catholic.

The nun again asserted her claim. My father and uncle walked out of the room and went straight home in tears. (This was in the early 1930's).

They told my grandma what had happened. She was a devout Catholic, but was shaken up by the events.

She marched up to school and read the Father who was principal the riot act.

This was a small town, and everyone knew each other. In fact, even though my grandpa wasn't Catholic, he still did a lot for the church.

The Father apologized profusely and assured my dad and uncle that grandpa was a good man, and that all good men do go to heaven.

I don't know if the nun was duly chastized, but my father said the subject never came up again.

Now, I'm not sure how relevent this story is, but they had the courage of their convictions, just like this little boy who sat down during the pledge of allegiance. Shame on teachers who single out children and make them pariah's in the eyes of their classmates.

[skewthat]

186. I had something similar happen to me when I was In H.S

It was back before the Bush administration though, really pissed off my H.R teacher. Anyway, I eventually dropped out of H.S and went to college at Simons's Rock College of Bard. It sounds like your son has the right mindset to go their, check it out at www.simons-rock.edu.

[ACLYouth]

188. Bump...

:kick:

[populistmom]

193. The Pledge is meanlingless

So is the flag. They are SYMBOLS, people. Symbols of America, but they in of itself, mean nothing. THE CONSTITUTION is what make America- America. That's what we need to fight to protect.
Keep on fighting ACLYouth and Lurking Dem! This is a first ammmendment issue all the way!