"Illegal Aliens"

[matcom]

what a shitty term. i literally CRINGE every time i hear it. what, so they DIDN'T come over on some "boat" en masse from a "white country" that they are sub-human?

aren't they HUMAN?

"Alien"
"Illegal"

we only have ONE world and man-made 'borders' don't make one an "owner".

"Alien"
"Illegal"

try "HUMAN BEINGS" assholes

sorry. you lurkers can flame now. just remember. YOU are most likely a descendant of a F*CKING "ALIEN"

BYE

[Bush is a chimp]

1. That is funny

I have been accused of being from outer space.... wait wrong Alien sorry, good thread!

[graelent]

2. I agree with you that the term needs some work

But the word alien meant visitor from a foreign country long before it meant ET...

[DarkPhenyx]

3. Illegal Alien! Illegal Alien! Illegal Alien!

Pack them all up and ship them back where they came from so they can enter the country legally next time!

[GOPisEvil]

4. I thought most people with feelings were using the term...

...undocumented immigrant.

[blondeatlast]

62. . . .or undocumented worker . . .

[La_Serpiente]

5. Here here

that is one of the most irritating things I hear. Everytime one of the xenophobes bring up the topic of immigration, they always say something like,

They are I-L-L-E-G-A-L

They are always emphasizing that part. Instead of lambasting them as criminals, maybe we should help them with their transistion or else the social stigma and stereotypes will continue. Many people don't even realize that these immigrants are people too.

[DarkPhenyx]

9. How about send them back to country of origin...

...and help them to improve things there instead?

BTW: Yes, they are illegal. Yes, that makes them criminals. Yes, tehy are also defiantely people. they are not immigrants though. Immigrants come in through legal channels.

[La_Serpiente]

11. Then why give them more opportunities

to help them in their transistion? 6 years plus is usually the MINIMUM for a person to get citizenship. Why don't we cut down the number of years to 2 or even 3? Why don't we put an emphasis on immigration transistions instead of just hiring more people to persecute them?

[DarkPhenyx]

15. AH! Different subject.

Citizenship has nothing to do with living and working legally in the US. Both of those can be done w/o citizenship.

However, since you brought it up, what is wrong with the six year rule? Yes, it could be two, or three, or even four years...but it's six. Jsut like you have to be 16 to drive, and 21 to drink. Reguardless of how we may feel about it, that is the law until we change the law.

[La_Serpiente]

18. It is not the law

it is the amount of resources we put into the transistion process. There is too much emphasis being placed on expelling these so called "illegal humans" and not enough emphasis on helping them with their transistion.

[DarkPhenyx]

22. Illegal Aliens.

Only RW'ers play the game by changing the "names" to strengthen their position.

The law is you have to go through the process. The process takes that long. Yes, we could put more money into processing them. There might be more money for processing if so much wasn't needed for enforcement. If they didn't come across the border illegally, as in "in violation of the law", then they wouldn't need to be expelled.

[La_Serpiente]

26. Check out this nation of immigrants

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=754451

[DarkPhenyx]

27. So what is your point?

yes, the U.S. is a country of Immigrants. So is Canada, so is England these days...Most of Russia is a mixed bag of peoples. Germany has a large and growing population of immigrants.

[La_Serpiente]

32. I just wanted to emphasize the fact that

this country was built by immigrants.

We should be hiring more workers at the INS to help immigrants make a living in the US. Just help them get citizenship and provide more funding for adult schools. If they are going to be demonized, then they wouldn't even be seeking help at all. Instead, they could join some underground black market and be an unproductive worker in society.

[DarkPhenyx]

35. And I'd be all for better INS funding for that...

...as long as it benefited those who entered the country legally, and not the ones who are here illegally.

[nannygoat]

57. It's almost impossible now for anyone to become a

legal permanent resident, let alone a citizen. The last chance most people had to be legalized was the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (known as the Amnesty program) which was signed by Reagan.

To get permanent residency now a person has to be the spouse or child of a legal permanent resident alien or the spouse, parent or sibling of a US citizen who is at least 21 years of age. There are some special programs for people from certain war torn countries who may be eligible for employment authorization (not legal permanent residency) while they have political asylum cases pending. This means they are able to stay here and work legally while their cases are being decided. Political asylum cases are generally very difficult cases to win.

In most cases, after 5 years, permanent resident aliens are eligible to apply for citizenship which usually takes more than a year or two because the INS (or what used to be) is very backlogged with cases.

You first have to become a legal permanent resident alien before you can apply for citizenship.

I worked with migrant and seasonal farmworkers in NC for 11 years (that's how I found out so much about immigration laws) and I can tell you that if Americans are really serious about stopping the flow of undocumented people here then they have to get at the employers. There are significant penalties for knowingly and willfully hiring undocumented people but as far as I can tell there is little enforcement. This allows employers to take advantage of an oversupply of labor and keep wages down and working conditions poor.

In my opinion, many of the undocumented people who are here do work that most Americans wouldn't do, and make wonderful contributions to the communities in which they live and work. If they make money and send it home to their families then I can be sure it is getting to the people who really need it as opposed to the aid that our government sends to Mexico, for example, most of which winds up lining the pockets of fatcat thieves.

[DuctapeFatwa]

13. I don't agree that all the whites sholuld be sent back to Europe

They would have to learn to drive all over again, not to mention all they thought they knew about wine and cheese.

[DarkPhenyx]

16. It's only in England that we would have to re-learn to drive...

...and it isn't the "side of the road" that is the hardest thing to re-learn, it's that most of your car is on the "wrong side". That and the damn narrow streets.

[DBoon]

30. Mandatory jail time for ..

corporate executive that hire illegal immigrants, knowingly or not! Do you think the folks exploiting this source of labor DON'T know the status of their workers? Come on, the whole point of corporate governance is plausible deniability.

If you really want to stop illegal immigration, go after the folks who benefit from it.

Bashing the migrants themselves just makes their life more miserable and makes them easier to exploit.

[DarkPhenyx]

36. Which is the other end of the equation.

Unfortuantely the people squawking about the IA's most are the ones benefitting from them most. Corporation, IOW rich right wing interests, are never going to go after that end becasue it would hurt too much. Cut off teh supply, cut off teh reason for the supply, fix the problem.

[DrWeird]

6. Yeah, and they often use it to imply

immoral aliens.

[DuctapeFatwa]

7. Peter Camejo calls them -

"the sons of the indigenous people of this continent."

which is what quite a few or the sons of the indigenous people of this continent, coincidentally, consider themselves to be.

[DarkPhenyx]

10. Actually most of them aren't.

Even among the South AmerInd population there are precious few who are pure "S&D of indiginous people" these days.

[DuctapeFatwa]

12. Very few sons of anybody are pure anything these days

Those European invaders were quite the frisky bunch...

[slackmaster]

23. Hispanic people in general are mixed native American and European

So are they not as guilty as a "pure" German or Anglo type person? Or does the guilt get diluted with genes?

How about all of us trying to get along instead of casting blame around for things done by previous generations?

[Devlzown]

8. I just call 'em furriners!

[David Zephyr]

14. Euro-Americans are the "Whitebacks" of North America

I thank you, Matcom, for keeping this message alive. I also cringe with you. This is such a long discredited term that it amazes me to read it here at the DU.

And for the record--

The greatest "illegal aliens" of all-time in North America are the white Europeans who as "aliens" on this continent:

1.) broke "legal" treaty after treaty with the native Americans;

2.) stole land from Mexican farmers in Calfornia after 1850 with the so-called "Land Act".

Talk about your "illegal aliens". White Americans have the largest beam possible from timber itself within their eyes when they use this term.

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye". ---Jesus, Matthew Chapter 5

[DarkPhenyx]

17. And I absolutely won't argue with you.

Now...please go kick all the white people off my peoples land and I'd be so much happier, thank you.

[Bush is a chimp]

20. But don't you know..

(in my best RW booming voice)

They are taking all of our good jobs!!

Like picking fruit and vegetables, picking our fruit among many other jobs that seem to be "under" the average American to do. These people are our future like it or not! America is a Country founded by "Illegal" Immigrants funny how quick people forget that.

[DarkPhenyx]

24. AS I said...I'm not arguing that.

So if you will please kick all the European peoples off my peoples land, including all the Spanish decent ones, I would be thrilled.

Let's not forget that the Spanish, who are hardly "Whitebacks", got here the same way the other European settlers did, and they were just as destructive and Imperialistic. Oh, wait, ya'll forget that part, yes?

[slackmaster]

19. Then I presume it wouldn't bother you

re: we only have ONE world and man-made 'borders' don't make one an "owner".

If I park my SUV on your lawn while my friends and I crash in your living room.

Be sure to stock the 'fridge with plenty of cold beer for us.

YOU are most likely a descendant of a F*CKING "ALIEN"

Yes, every journey back down my family tree goes to someone who immigrated to North America. AFAIK none of them broke any laws. (None of them displaced Native Americans either. The displacement had already been done by the time my ancestors arrived.)

[DarkPhenyx]

25. Let's not forget this part...

...even my AmerInd ancestors were immigrants. Many of them dispalced previous immigrants. They also broke treaties, blah, blah, blah....et. al.

[PsN2Wind]

21. All you compassionate types

are sure welcome to come down here near the border and help clean up the human feces, sanitary products, diapers, cans, bottles and other discards that are making many parts of southern Arizona a dump.

Importing labor has much the same effect as exporting jobs. Capitalists love people competing for jobs by offering to work for ever lower wages. And before you'all run out that "well, they only take jobs that American won't do", let me tell you, I've worked in construction and packing houses.

Those of us that have to pay to educate, medicate, and incarcerate them could sure use some help from you benevolent people.

[matcom]

28. yeah, because i don't live on a border i am benevolent

i pay for them too

and i would GLADLY pay for "them" if it would help make them productive members of society (which they are anyways).

they are doing the shit jobs you REFUSE to do

embrace them

they clean up YOUR shit

[DarkPhenyx]

29. Wouldn't they...

...and the law abiding folks who don't enter this country illegally but stay home in the country of origin, be far better off if the money we spend on immigration enforcement was spent on, prehaps, helping their country up to a decent standard? Wouldn't we, in fact, be helping more people instead of the few individuals and groups breaking the law? How about if they were here legally, doing those shit jobs we don't want, but getting paid more because they would have some recourse instead of having to just deal?

[PsN2Wind]

31. How the fuck do you think

you know anything about me. I've worked in packing houses, I've worked as a roofer, I worked on a railroad steel gang, I've been in two branches of the service and I've even picked spuds. So you can stick the attitude in your ass.
If you don't live in a border state, you aren't paying nearly what we do for the ILLEGAL ALIENS!

[DarkPhenyx]

33. Considering that much of the funding comes from the States...

...he ahs a point MatCom.

[matcom]

34. i served. i worked in manual labor. i got educated.

on my own dime.

good fucking thing *I* had that opportunity.

am so sorry "they" don't.

exactly WHERE are "they" illegal? YOUR country? withing YOUR borders?

fuck that.

"they" are typically harder working than "most" of "your" kind. how does THAT feel?

"your kind"

[DarkPhenyx]

37. Matcom...answer this.

Are they in violation of US immigration law? Are they in violation of international law?

If the answer to either or both of these questions is yes then they are criminals. Just like the guy speeding on the interstate, or the person cheating on their taxes, or the individual smuggling something across the border.

[matcom]

39. you are assuming that i AGREE with immigration law!

strawman

rephrase

THAT is the whole point

[DarkPhenyx]

40. So change teh law.

Until you do it is still the law.

I don't think the drinking age is right, but till they change it I am all for prosecuting those that break the law. Particularly adults buying for underage drinkers.

I think Pot should be legal. Till it is then guess what...yup...bust them.

I also think that we should ticket people for passing on the right side, and driving slow in the left lane, and......

[matcom]

44. that makes no sense

you are for pot legalization but you are ALSO for busting a guy with a joint?

for what purpose?

YOUR ideas are what is draining the system!

gawd forbid YOUR son or daughter gets 'caught' with something YOU think should be LEGAL

call me then pal. you will cry crocodile tears. change the system. don't succum to it.

DUH

[DarkPhenyx]

46. Actually I didn't.

Nor have I ever cried when I got caught speeding, even though the highway was clear and I was driving safely.

It makes perfect sense actually. If it's agasint the law, adn you disagree with it, change the law. Till you change the law it will still be ilegal, and you will still ahve to pay teh price for breaking that law. If we don't accept this truism then why have laws at all? Even laws against DUI, murder, rape, racism.......

[PsN2Wind]

42. You should ask for your dime back

Your barely coherent diatribes certainly don't reflect well on that education.
If you get this overwrought in every debate, I would think you'd be better sticking with your little inane posts in the Lounge.

[matcom]

47. overwrought?

i am far from it.

diatribe?

hardly. you should see what i do to freepers.

woops! maybe you have........

anyhoo. i think i WILL travel back to the Lounge (with my "inane" posts where "intelligent life" exists :eyes:

[Devlzown]

38. It's not that Americans think they're "too good"

to do any of the jobs the immigrants do. You nailed it in your earlier post. The capitalists like to have labor competing against itself. When they bring in all these immigrants, they drive the wages down to levels that Americans can't afford to live off of. It isn't a matter of pride, it's survival.

[DarkPhenyx]

41. when you are better off living off of welfare...

...instead of taking any job at all, there is something wrong with the system.

Then again there are a lot of things wrong with the system.

[ClarkUeberAlles]

43. Are you living in reality or the matrix?

This is the not the 19th century when most of the U.S. and counting native americans was uninhabited land. Then we needed people to come into the country and expand it, manifest destiny and all that. The country is not like that anymore. We already have millions of people on welfare, without healthcare, homeless, and we don't need illegals adding on to the system.

Except for maybe some obscure tribe in africa or the amazon, the U.S. already has a representative of almost EVERY race and culture on earth. Illegal immigrants have NOTHING to offer the american people. Yes they do the jobs that a lot of people won't do, but thats a bad thing not a good one. If it wasn't for them then employers would offer higher wages until americans did do those jobs, thats how capitalism is supposed to work. I know illegals are coming over here because there's work to be had, I'm all for handing out harsh penalties for those who hire illegals, but thats not an excuse for them to break our laws.

The U.S. has no obligation to illegals whatsoever, we don't have to put first aid kits in the desert, we don't have to hand out drivers licenses, we don't have to make it easier for them to get citizenship. We owe them nothing and we don't need them for anything.

Finally, calling them illegal aliens isn't a dehumanizing term, and your apparent belief in no borders is absolutely ludicrous. Have you ever been to Tijuana? The difference between Tijuana and San Diego is like Heaven and Hell and I'm sure glad a border separates them. I don't want L.A. and S.D. becoming hell holes like Tijuana but unfortunately thats the rode we're headed down.

[matcom]

45. ah, but apparently we DO 'need them'

we have EVERY obligation to EVERY person. regardless "how" they got there. WE are the RICHEST nation on earth. BTW, spent a 4 day weekend in Tijuana (thanks for asking) and know that MANY of the residence cross the border DAILY to do the job YOU are UNWILLING to do.

you are correct. WE have NO "obligation" to these people but it is DAMNED FANTASTIC that SOME of "US" chose to support them and help them any way we can.

"Illegal"

are YOU called the same if YOU have the opportunity to move to and work in and live in England? would YOU have to "prove" YOUR loyalty?

NOPE.

YOU would be accepted.

YOU would NOT be called "illegal"

NOPE.

[DarkPhenyx]

48. Why?

Why do we have an obligation? Simple question really.

As to your England quaetion? If you moved there w/o a passport and vias, and took work, and never registered that you were in the country? Yes...you would indeed be illegal.

[matcom]

49. who can't get a Passport?

took me $55, 2 photos taken at a grocery store and 2 weeks waiting.

we are NOT obligated (although in my eyes) we SHOULD be. its called HUMANISM.

i personally don't give a fuck what side of the fence you happen to "exist" on, you are a PERSON and a HUMAN in my eyes.

yes, surprisingly that even includes YOU (although don't ask me exactly why) :eyes:

[DarkPhenyx]

51. Please point out where I have said they aren't human?

I haven't, so you can save your time and not go looking.

OK, so you admit taht it is easy to get a passport. I even got mine while I was out of the country. 1 hour at the American Consulate in Frankfurt and I had my passport in hand. That included filling out the forms and having my pic taken.

Now...that being said...I'm quite familier with humanism. Isn't it far more in line with humanism to sovle the problems in the countries of orgin and improve the lot of millions thatn to reward the 10's of thousands who violate the law to come to this country illegally where they are abused and used?

[DarkPhenyx]

55. Look MatCom...

you and I agree more often than we disagree. There is no call for you being an ass simply because we disagree on this issue.

[matcom]

56. There is no reason for you calling me an ass simply because we disagree.

i started this thread and you (and others have been rude).

don't get me wrong, don't much care but don't you go looking for an apology when i have only been looking for "intelligent" dialogue. haven't found much but attacks here sofar.

[DarkPhenyx]

58. Where was I rude?

Aside from calling you an ass...which you were.

"Yes even YOU (don't ask me why)" I believe is the quote.

What, so far, that I have posted hasn't been "intelligent"? Is it unintelligent if it disagrees with your view?

[matcom]

59. nosotros si todos aprenden hablar español

debemos abrazar a nuestros vecinos al sur

[DarkPhenyx]

61. Sorry...

...my languages are French, German, and Turkish.

[PsN2Wind]

52. We need them?

Does he feel we also need those legal immigrants coming in taking the tech jobs. I've seen a lot of angst here over those emigres.
Seems people can't be convinced that an open border, such as they espouse, would mean that our unemployment amongst citizens would go thru the roof due to the willingness of people from other countrys to work for barely subsistence pay in order to escape their homelands.

[Blitz]

50. I came here as a LEGAL Alien

Crossed all of the Ts and dotted all of the Is to become a citizen. I have absolutely NO problem with the term "illegal aliens." It is accurate. The people are aliens (non-citizens). There is NOTHING degrading about the term "aliens." Resident aliens, legal aliens (it was good enough for Sting in "Englishman in New York"), etc. It just means non-citizen. You have to be really looking for something to complain about to have a problem with that. As for "illegal," well, they are. The United States, like every nation on earth, has immigration laws, whether you like them or not. They are valid and constitutional. Aliens (non-citizens) who entered or remained in the country in violation of said laws are not here legally. Ergo, they are "illegal" aliens.

Borders are part of what define a nation. If you object to borders, you object to nations (and states, cities, counties and personal real property). It sounds to me like that is your position. If so, you can have it, but don't expect too many people to vote with you.

[PsN2Wind]

54. Wecome Blitz

It's great to see a rational view from one that did things as the law provides for. I'm certainly not against immigration only immigration without control.

[solinvictus]

53. Illegal Aliens

Deport them en masse, they're helping to push wages down and a straining the social services.

[mitchtv]

67. can we all agree that we have no problem

paying $6 a head for lettuce and $1 an orange ar apple? Cause that's what I here you saying.

[jonnyblitz]

60. I agree Matcom. Apparently the Pat Buchanan supporters who

have posted on your thread beg to differ. :puke:

[DarkPhenyx]

63. So why do we have to be...

...Pat Buchanan supporters? Simply because we disagree? Isn't demonizing the opposition teh prefered tactic of the neo-Cons? For us or against us, you commie liberals and all that tripe?

[SOteric]

64. Worse. I'm the child of immigrants

I have lived around and worked in an industry most of my life that employs undocumented or fraudulently documented workers. Some times in conversation about those workers, one needs a term to distinguish subgroups of workers. I've heard perfectly nice people use the term for lack of any better way to refer to the official status of a group of employees.

[DarkPhenyx]

65. Nice Orca! n/t

[SoCalDem]

66. "Illegal Employers" should be the operative term..

Poor people from elsewhere would NOT come here if they could not work and earn money.. The USofA is NO PLACE to be with ZERO money..

The people who HIRE the "illegals" are the ones who should be prosecuted..

Some people want it both ways.. They would never think of paying people $7 or $8 an hour to pick fruit, but they complain when they see undocumented workers hanging around waiting to be picked up for "work"..

They like the $20 gardner who does such a good job
They like the $100 a month live-in maid
They like the piecework sweatshop worker

Every person who is working here illegally, is being PAID by someone.. THAT'S who we should be apprehending..

Would/could you move to Canada if you had NO way to support yourself, and you were not eligible for health care and benefits?? Nope !!

[ClarkUeberAlles]

69. i agree with you 100%

As far as I am aware the penalties for people hiring illegals is not severe. I say we should make it very punitive, perhaps some jail time if necessary, so that employers don't have an incentive to hire illegals. However, thats not an excuse for people coming here illegally. They should be deported whenever caught.

And I don't know what's up with that business about buchanan supporters someone posted earlier. Buchanan wants to stop all immigration to america except from white countries. we want to stop all illegal immigration from all countries.

[creativelcro]

68. It was the main point of "Man in Black" and "Independence Day"

That they are not human, and are out to get us... Just "Alien" is creepy, and emotionally, it implies "illegal" of some sort... I mean, being called a legal alien would not be that nice either...