NY Times: Picture of Menorah that will placed on one of Iraq's palaces

[La_Serpiente]

Celebrating Hanukkah

A picture of the menorah that will be lighted on the grounds of one of Iraq's presidential palaces.



http://www.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.html

[Muesli]

1. WHY????

Are they trying to encourage suicide-bombings?

[loudnclear]

3. They are trying to humilate the Iraqis the way Sharon did the Palestinians

when he visited the Temple Mount. This will inflame the existing situation and ensure more acts of resistence and thereby give excuses for killing more and more Iraqis.

[radwriter0555]

Like hitler humiliated the jews....

just the same...

[Jheka_]

62. Yes, Jews peacefully observing their religion

is SO humiliating.

A quiet public observance of an ancient holiday makes them JUST like Hitler. Iraqi Jews should be outlawed and all remaining Jews driven from the country immediately, so that no anti-semitic fanatics are "humiliated."

[radwriter0555]

10. double hit that button n/t

[mobuto]

21. Bullshit Alert

The menorah was designed by an Iraqi Jew. You have a problem with Iraqi Jews? Or should only Muslims be allowed to live there?

The Iraqi Jews were humiliated when they were forced out of their homes and out of their country, at gunpoint, after many had been killed and all their money stolen. That's a level of "humiliation" that Mr. Sharon, for all his faults, has neglected to inflict on the "poor" Palestinian population.

[Ardee]

23. bullshit smells from either side

There is a large difference between reopening synagogues within Iraq, ensuring the rights of Iraqi jews and arbitrarily and for no apparent reason placing a religious symbol on a palace.

This is a provocative act and nothing less.it will result in a worsening of relationships between moslem and jew, where, prior to the rise of the Ba'athists, there was peaceful coexistence.Some of the oldest synagogues extant are in Iraq.

[mobuto]

36. Some of the oldest synagogues extant are in Iraq

but they don't have any congregants, because they were all killed or forced into exile.

It'd be nice for the US simply to go around rebuilding synagogues in Najaf and whathaveyou, but we all know that's not possible at this point. They would be bombed in the blink of an eye. The Palace affords protections. Moreover, this isn't an overtly religious statement, but rather a memorial to the now-lost Iraqi Jewish culture that incorporates a Jewish symbol into it.

[Ardee]

39. one mans memorial

which I have never heard characterised as such excepting by you is another mans provocation......I am also far from certain that you are correct in your assessment of the dispersal of the iraqi jews by Hussein....

[blondeatlast]

59. Agreed. This is "in your face."

This does nothing whatsoever to encourage peace and tolerance.

[Blitz]

65. Peace and tolerance could most expeditiously be promoted

by the immediate slaughter and/or deportations of any remaining Iraqi Jews and the banning of any Jews from entering, doing business with or otherwise associating with Iraq in the future.

As many on this board would agree, no Jews, no problem.

[Jim Sagle]

73. The slogan is "No Jews. Just Right." If you're gonna be in the Vanguard,

ya gotta be accurate. ;-)

[cprise]

64. Agreed, this is a bit provocative

...and does not help bring about the conditions for a secular democracy.

[PsychoDad]

34. Errr...

I was going to say something. I decided not to. What has happened to both the Iraqi Jews and the Palastinians is wrong and inexcusible.

Wrong is wrong. Opression is wrong - regardless of whom

[blondeatlast]

60. AMEN.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Your last point is a bit arguable

weren't some of their homes bulldozed quite publicly last year? And as far as gunpoint is concerned...one would have to be deaf dumb and blind to not notice some aspects of the last year that while not quite so "humiliating" have the same outcome. This Jew certainly harbors no excuses for Sharon and while I think it is great if Iraqi Jews now have the right to practice their religion, I still think that a public flaunting of what will be misinterpreted easily is a bit foolish.

In fact, doing this makes Israel more of a target not less. Is the billboard worth the cost?

[Blitz]

72. Yes!!

How dare a Jew visit the Jews' holiest site!!

Barbarian.

And now this. It's the Jews' fault that there will be more resistance and it's the Jews fault that more innocent Iraqis will be killed.

God, in this season of peace, can you imagine what peace we'd have if only there were no Jews?

[Party of the People]

76. Just keep it up, everyone.

Traditionally, Jews have voted approximately 80% for the democratic party. They have also served non-Jews well; my favorite example being the assistant attorney, Greenberg, to the then NAACP director attorney, Thurgood Marshall; but there are lots of other examples.

Please be more careful of this sort of hate speech because you will end up pushing Jews to the Republicans. I realize you have memorized every Jewish name associated with the Repukes, but they are not representative of the Jewish population in total.

Has no one learned anything from the Shoah?

If you need a scapegoat, you've got one: The Bush administration! You don't need the perennial handy-dandy 'Jew as scapegoat' and a lot of what is on this thread is unseemly for what is purportedly a progressive board.

- rant over -

[Blitz]

83. Oh, come on!!

Don't you think that the Jews bring it on themselves??

Just look at the Turkey Synagogue bombings. Now, I'm not saying that the Jews can't have their synogogues or temples or whatever other Jewish-type stuff they insist on having, but then they actually GO to these places, which is just provocative and unnecessary. I mean, no one says that they can't very quietly do whatever Jew-thing they need to do in the privacy of their own homes, behind closed doors and drawn shades, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that flaunting your Jewishness in a country where lots and lots of people hate Jews is not smart and is just going to lead to trouble. If the Turkish Jews (and what the hell are Jews doing in Turkey, anyway? What? They ran out of room in Park Slope and Kew Gardens?) really cared about peace and their fellow man, they would never have gone to a synagogue, just like Sharon should never have gone to the Temple Mount. They obviously provoked the bombers, whose reaction to the Jew-provocation was completely foreseeable, if not inevitable. The result? A bunch of innocent non-Jews get killed while the Jews get away with their provocation largely unscathed. The worst part? I now hear that they've started worshipping at the same synagogues again. Have these people no shame? No humanity? No sense? Has their religious fanaticism not caused enough innocent lives to be lost? When will the selfish, thoughtless Jew learn that he is but a guest among the people that he insults and provokes and that his flaunting of his religion only causes the deaths of innocents and, sometimes, even of Jews?

Oh, what a paradise, what a beacon of plurality and brotherhood and tolerance the ancient kingdoms of the Middle East could become if only the Jewish poison, with its antagonistic menorahs, it's provocative synogogues and its hateful "faith" could be sucked out forever.












/sarcasm (just like post 72 was)

Oh, and as for your point, the worth of the Jewish people is defined by far, far more than which party they vote for and keeping them loyal to the Democrats is a damned poor justification for condemning the anti-semitism which has infected the far left and specifically, this thread.

[0rganism]

2. Oh, this will surely win hearts and minds

Finally, a way to unite the Sunni and Shia populations of Iraq on important issues.

[xchrom]

4. keep it up

i can hear my mother telling me when i would act out...
just before she gave me an ass whooping.

[jogi1969]

5. isn't the 2nd highest 'civilian' authority

behind proconsul paul bremer jewish?
are these guys for real?
ugh!

the sheer stupidity is just astounding
right out front huh?

i fear for our troops

[Blitz]

67. AMEN!!

JEWS out of Iraq!!

Don't offend the Jew-haters lest peace and tolerance be endangered!!

The road to secular democracy must be Judenrein!!

No Jews, no Judenhass! Why don't the stupid Jews finally get this and go back to Brooklyn?!?

If Jews are killed, this will show that they brought it on themselves and, if Westerners are murdered, well, they wouldn't have been but for this Hebrew provocation. Who should we blame but the Jews the next time innocent bystanders get killed when someone expresses their perfectly understandable rage at the Jews and their houses of worship?!?

I fear for our troops as well. Fucking Jews, putting them in danger. Really, putting all of us in danger.

/anti-"zionist" loon.

Did I get that about right? That's pretty much the message I've seen on this thread and I wanted to sum up.

To anybody

[maddezmom]

6. who is behind this grand idea?

:(

[La_Serpiente]

7. Personally,

I would have nothing against this. However, they would have to show other symbols that are chracteristic of Iraq's history. Maybe they could have the stone tablets of Hammurabi, or other artifacts if they weren't stolen from the Iraq National Museum.

But hey, I am looking at this from an American perspective.

[Loonman]

8. That's real classy

:eyes:

Jerks.

[ikojo]

9. Wow! The Bush people really do not care how they are

perceived on the Arab "street!"

To the average Arab and Iraqi this will confirm in their minds that the whole occupation is being done at the behest of this massive Jewish conspiracy.

This is not good for the Iraqis and definitely not good for Jews.

[LeahMira]

13. Sad...

... that people don't realize Hannukah is one of the minor Jewish festivals. If there are Jews in the military, I'm sure they would prefer to observe the season with their fellow Jews in their barracks or wherever. It's true that the menorah is to be displayed in a window as an affirmation of religious freedom, but it's not meant to be some huge display in the streets. How American to make the menorah into a symbol of something the opposite of what it was meant to be.

[spotbird]

18. Thank you for that insight. nt

[Ardee]

25. minor festival?

eight days of celebration seems a bit more than minor to me. Hannukah "geldt" was never minor to the kids either......Where do you get such fact I wonder. The celebration of a miracle ,especially when miracles are in short supply, doesnt register with me as minor.

[0rganism]

38. In the words of Jon Stewart...

"Our great miracle is, 'The oil lasted longer than it should have!'"

Sorry, Ardee, Channukah IS minor when compared to Rosh Hashona or Yom Kippur or Pesach, it's about on the level of Purim. I would put Yom HaShoah over it in significance, as well.

[Bonobo]

43. Spotbird is right. It's minor.

Are you Jewish? Ever heard of the "high holidays"? Well Channukah is not one of them.

-He who speaks, knows not. He who knows, speaks not.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ardee]

56. so as you speak ,you know not?

silly analogy and a poor attempt at an unecesarily insolent retort.

While it is really none of your business I am a Jew. What the High Holidays have to do with my response that eight days of displaying a menorah on a palace in Baghdad is far from minor I know not, nor do you I venture. Why you posted such a silly and sophomoric insult in response to my posts is of no concern to me but know that you do your opinions no merit by doing so, did you think everyone would applaud such childishness?

[Lurking Dem]

48. It is not a High Holiday.

The length of the celebration has nothing to do with its importance. It is an historical re-enactment.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. I'm a Gentile, but

my understanding is that Chanukah became an important festival in the United States (where Jews lived among Gentiles instead of in ghettos) so that Jewish children wouldn't have "Christmas envy."

Apparently it's a pretty minor festival in Israel as well.

[Lurking Dem]

54. I do believe this time of year can be referred to

as a celebration of that all important gd of consumerism.

[Ardee]

57. not the point Lydia

my reference to the "minor" nature was that the displaying of a menorah on the walls of a palace in Baghdad for eight days is far from a minor event.

[Karenina]

42. BINGO!

This is nothing more or less than a deliberate provocation to speed the *U.S. foreign policy of "population reduction."

[Plaid Adder]

11. Look for it soon all over Al-Jazeera!

Wow, this is dumb.

You know, there's a time and a place for everything...why not just put up a Christmas tree on top of the nearest mosque?

Yessir, nothing says "occupied by a hostile power" like an enormous symbol of the occupiers' religion erected in a public place...

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[no_arbusto]

12. Are those poppies on the top?

eom

[Karenina]

50. Hmmmm....

:think:

[cosmicdot]

14. the Bu$h-Ashcroft vision of separation of church and state ...

... following oil for corporate 'democracy' ...

this is good ol'boy mindthink at its best (worst)

[THUNDER HANDS]

15. you know...there ARE Jews living in Iraq

They're not near any sort of sizable minority, but they're there and have been living there for some time. Both under Saddam and before him.

[leftynyc]

16. The Jews have lived in Iraq since the Babylonian captivity

I beleive that was around 500BC.

[spotbird]

19. The issue is respect at a very difficult time.

There are Christians living in Israel, so should that religious state display Christian icons on its public buildings? How about Islamic religious symbols on the public buildings in Israel? After all, Arabs live there too.

[THUNDER HANDS]

27. I see no problem with it

If Israel wants to do that I think it'd be a great thing. I'd actually encourage it.

[Cornus]

31. I see lots of problems with it

Why can't religious symbols be displayed privately in one's own home or in the churches, synagogues, mosques, or whatever the religious meeting place might be?

This is exactly what I think we should be doing in the USA also. If that simple rule were followed, we would not have the constant conflict in various towns thoughout our country at this time of year..."You've got your religious display at town hall, why can't I have mine?" I've read about several of these types of conflicts locally just this past week.

Do away with ALL religious displays on public property and the problem is solved! Display whatever you want in your own home or in your place of worship.

[spotbird]

17. Wait a minute. I thought the troops weren’t allowed pork,

so as not to offend the Iraqis. When something as trivial as what the troops, who have no religious objection, eat is an issue how in the name of God can this be justified? Your average Iraqi probably cares less about American troops eat then having religious symbols which are not their own displayed.

Also, how does this quell the Middle Eastern concern that Americans pander to Israel? This is just soooo unnecessary.

[mobuto]

24. If Iraqis cannot tolerate other religions

they can go f--k themselves. Tolerance of pluralistic views is the great hallmark of civilization. These people expelled one of the greatest Jewish populations of the Middle East - they killed, robbed blind and chased into exile their friends and neighbors who had lived alongside them for thousands of years, simply because they were Jews. This is not acceptable behavior and the US Army, and particularly Jews serving in the US Army, should not have to cowtow to the worst in Iraqi mob thought.

You might as well refuse to erect a monument in Srebrenica to the fallen Muslims lest it offend the poor, unfortunate Serbs.

[Ardee]

26. a pointless point,Mobuto

You are,imo, allowing angst and testosterone to govern your powers of reason...pity.

[ikojo]

29. First of all there are very FEW Jews in the US Army

I think it might be less than one half of one percent. What right do they have to shove their religious icons down the throats of a conquered country. Anytime a town or other public entity erects a creche the local Jewish community is up in arms about it. There is no way a Menorah can be spun as a non religious icon.

According to a report on jta.org there are only 300 Jews among the 130,000 troops in the gulf.

http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?strwebhead=Tales+of+two+Jewish+soldiers&intcategoryid=5

As a Jew I find this display to be highly offensive.

[Cocoa]

40. "these people"???

the attitude you're expressing really goes a long way to explain why wars are started and sometimes never end. Peace between different peoples would be absolutely impossible if everyone thought that way.

[1songbird]

20. To everything there is a time and season.

Now is not the time nor the season for displays such as this. I would think that this would serve to ignite religious tensions.

[NoKingGeorge]

22. I respect your posts,but this cannot be true.

My mind cannot absorb this. I have a pretty good imagination but I could not think up some of the things I am hearing about these past couple years. Wow.

[ieoeja]

28. First the Shi'ites, now the Jews.

While I still think it won't work, the plan is to tear down state sponsored barriers. Sort of like forcing desegregation on the southern United States. Did it enflame the local population? Yes! Did it cause outbreaks of violence and killings? Yes! Was it worth it?

I would say yes. Of course, that was Americans forcing this upon other Americans and after decades it has still not fully worked. So I have little faith that reconstruction will work in Iraq either. Still, bigotry grows best when ignored.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

30. Iraq is still a hostile non western nation. This is a BIG mistake!

.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

45. say what? Tariq Aziz was Catholic & many of Saddams inner circle were

Christians and Iraq had Jewish Temples too...Iraq had plenty of "religious tolarence" thats exactly why Osama hated Saddam and wanted him dead

[SoCalDem]

32. How about a picture of a sharp stick in an eye??

They are being boldly STUPID.. Does anyone really think that this is "necessary"?.. Iraq was a SECULAR nation, now on the verge of becoming a mini-Iran, and some genius thinks that a picture of a menorah will "help" ???

ugh.. what idiots..

[RPG-7]

33. everyone in Iraq thinks they were invaded by agents of zionists

I can't think of anything that would dispel this notion faster than placing a menorah designed by an Israeli Jew in the presidential palace :eyes:

[Party of the People]

77. Hi! Guess what!

Prejudice is not stopped by what you think of as rational.

The Jews will be hated no matter what happens in the Arab countries.

[PsychoDad]

35. Wouldn't...

Placing it at a iraqi synagoge be a better place? Be bound to cause less tension?

[RBHam]

37. Fanning the flames

what? Do these people actually WANT WW III? It seems so, they're doing everything in their power to ramp up the hostilities.

[Cocoa]

41. the Onion is right on, as usual...

Christmas brought to Iraq by force

[ElsewheresDaughter]

44. oh yeah this will be a peace maker........brillant....NOT!

[Blitz]

68. Yes!! Peace at any price!!

We need to be more proactive in the promotion of peace with understandibly sensitive Islamists.

A good first step would be to outlaw the travel by any American Jews to the Middle East. We'll just put something in their passports so that they are restricted from going to certain countries. A complete travel ban can be considered later.

Also, any Jewish military or civilian personel in Iraq must be immediately reassigned to a less offensive location and the Military should stop accepting Jews or the direct relatives of Jews immediately, just to be safe.

Finally, to show that we are not hypocrites, the display of menorah, mezuzah or any other Jew symbol or clothing should henceforth be outlawed in Deerborne Michigan and other places with large Muslim populations so as not to offend people and to promote peace. If this policy is successful in promoting peace, the Department of Homeland Security should consider limiting all Jewish activity to statutorily fixed neighborhoods so that Peace can be maintained.

If the Jews would stop being selfish and cooperate, we can finally have Peace in our time.

If they do not do so voluntarily, the interests of Peace demand that they be compelled.

[Party of the People]

78. Yes. I remember a similar speech

to that...but it was in German.

[Blitz]

84. You're really not much for picking up on sarcasm

but your heart seems to be in the right place.

Welcome to DU and happy Hannukah.

[KFC]

46. Any Iraqi that acts violently to this is an idiot/criminal

No justification for violence over a Menorah.

"Hey, there's a Menorah!, let's kill sombody!"

[Karenina]

47. This post expresses

a complete lack of sensitivity to the "facts on the ground."

[Party of the People]

81. This post represents

a truth which seems to elude far too many on this thread!

[never cry wolf]

49. Ok, I have read the entire thread up to now...

There are good points on both sides and I certainly empathize with the poor treatment the Iraqi Jews have received but this is just plain STUPID!!!

Half the reason Osama was pissed at us was because we are seen as mercenaries for Israel, the other half was that we infidels had a base in their holy land of Saudi Arabia.

Muslims all over the world, until shrubbie came in anyway, did not really have a bone to pick with the US except for the above two reasons. They see the Palestinians being bombed by US made fighters paid for by US grants and in their mind our government is just a bunch of lackeys for the Jews. As soon as 911 happened word on the Arab street was that the Hezbola was behind itin order to pin it on Muslims.

I am not saying I support those positions, but that is the perception of a majority of over a billion Muslims across the world. The arab people are a proud people who avenge a perceived humiliation. I read in another thread recently that shaving Sadaam was another example, in that part of the world shaving a defeated enemy is akin to making him you bitch.

The post above may not be far off, they very well may be trying to start WW III. Either that or they are the most clueless incompetent group of petty satraps even to disgrace this planet.

on edit: sighhhhh, someday I will learn to preview before posting.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. Exactly, this is not about religious freedom

If Bremer or anyone else wanted to honor the embattled Iraqi Jewish community, they could arrange to make an official morale-building visit or something or donating to the reconstruction of their synagogues or making sure that they had the proper foods available.

There are quite a few Orthodox Christians in Iraq. It will be interesting to see if the occupation authorities put up an Orthodox cross or a manger scene in a prominent public place on Orthodox Christmas (January 7).

I have to agree with the poster above. These people are either stupid (unwittingly acting out the stereotype of U.S. foreign policy that the Arab street already has--i.e. that the U.S. is a pawn of Israel) or incredibly arrogant (purposely acting out said stereotypes to provoke their opponents). Since they have been both stupid and arrogant in the past, I don't know which it is this time.

[mitchtv]

58. Orthodox Christians? I thought

the Chaldeans are "Eastern Rite" Catholic.

[Fleshdancer]

55. Hello fire, meet fuel

When (IF) everything settles down in Iraq, I can see how the Menorah would have a rightful time and place to be displayed. Now isn't it though.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make the assumption that Jewish people wouldn't appreciate symbols of their faith being used in such a degrading, hostile way. If it sparks more hatred and more violence in an already unstable country, then isn't the meaning of the Menorah lost?

It baffles me how I keep hearing the decision makers claim they're making things safer for us, when their actions clearly point out their attempts to do the exact opposite.

[oldcoot]

69. This is like adding gasoline to a fire

You are correct. This is like adding gasoline to a fire. This action will not promote religious tolerance and will provide another reason for the Iraqis to hate the troops. I never thought invading Iraq was a good idea but even I have been shocked by the incompetence of this administration. This administration has had numerous opportunities to promote goodwill in Iraq and has failed miserably.

I also wonder if the genius who thought that this would be a good idea actually thought about what life is going to be like for Iraqi Jews and Christians after the troops leave. During hard times, people tend to use religious minorities as scapegoats. I am concerned that Iraqi Jews and Christians may eventually pay a terrible price for our government's poor decisions.

[Blitz]

70. The meaning of the menorah

The Menorah, among other things, symbolizes the triumph of light, knowledge and faith over darkness, ignorance and despair. There are few places on earth where the lighting of the menorah is more appropriate than in Baghdad, which is surely in need of light, hope and enlightenment.

Don't go out on a limb on this Jew's account and DO NOT presume to speak for the Jewish people. Just stay near the base of the tree. The limbs are completely occupied by Jews and those people who are not telling us to shut up and keep our heads down. Jews may be few in number, but hardly so few that we need you to speak for us.

Are the troublesome Jews making the world less safe by failing to hide the fact that they are Jewish? Tough.

[oldcoot]

75. Who is telling you to hold your head down?

No one is saying that Iraqi Jews should not be able to practice their religion. I think that it is safe to say that most of us support the rights of Iraqi Jews to display whatever religious symbols they want to on their own person and property.

However, most of us also understand the dangerous position that coalition nations placed themselves and their troops when they decided to invade Iraq. Bush and the other coalition leaders loved to talk about liberating Iraq and how they were going to bring democracy to the Iraqi people. Unfortunately, the coalition governments really did not think too much about how they were going accomplish these goals. Perhaps if they cared more about the future of the Iraqi people then about stealing Iraq's natural resources and opening Iraq up to foreign investment, they might have planned better. We should not be surprised that many Iraqis question the true motivations for the invasion.

The last thing that Iraq's Jewish and Christian population need is for their fellow countrymen associate them with the occupation. The individual who decided to place a menorah outside one of the presidential palaces is doing nothing to encourage religious toleration. Instead, this action simply risks further antagonizing angry Iraqis. They may accuse Iraqi Jews of collaboration and start attacking them. Since Jews are a minority in Iraq, they will have a hard time defending themselves.

Frankly, I do not believe that the coalition governments should be displaying any religious symbols (this includes the cross) on or near any government buildings or public property in Iraq. Even in the United States, government buildings are discouraged from displaying religious symbols. After all, how many court cases have we have had in the United States over nativity scenes? Do you think that the federal courts in the United States are telling American Christians to not hold their heads up by not allowing nativity scenes in front of local courthouses?

If the United States and the other coalition nations really want religious toleration in Iraq, they need to start dealing with the problems facing all of Iraq's people. Iraq has a high unemployment and crime rate. Successfully addressing those issues may create a stable Iraq more likely to tolerate religious and ethnic diversity.

[Party of the People]

82. By all means, appease Iraq!

cut

ROME, Iraq, Nov. 20 (CNA) - The past week has seen numerous attacks by fundamentalist Muslims on Christians in Mosul in northern Iraq. “Last week a bomb was found in front of Catholic school in Mosul; luckily it was defused before it could explode. The bomb was a cluster of low potential hand grenades but it could have killed or injured the children. For security reasons the school was closed for a good week” local Chaldean Catholic priest Father Nizar Semaan in Mosul told Fides Service. “Also last week a round of kalashnikov was fired against the residence of the Syro-Antiochian Bishop in my city”.

cut

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=230


and

cut

Note! At this point a bit of reality and history is called for. Not only did the Americans not assist Israel in 1948 but America, along with Europe, embargoed arms shipments to Israel. She had to scrounge the junkyards of Europe to accumulate obsolete arms that dated back often to WWI and the cast-offs of WWII. It was long after that Israel was allowed to "buy" arms, using monies contributed by Jews in America. The Jews of Europe, having been killed off by Hitler's Nazis who were assisted by most European nations, could not contribute. Any property the survivors might have previously owned, had been confiscated by the occupying Nazis and their European collaborators. Their assets had been grabbed by Hitler, the French, the Swiss, the Ukrainians - etc. Well, it's all there in the well-researched books about WWII.

So, the walking skeletons who came out of the graveyards of Europe and made it past the British blockade to Palestine supplemented the earlier Jewish pioneers, bringing the Jewish population in 1948 to some 600,000. This became the rag-tag army who were issued a vintage rifle, allowed to fire 3 bullets for training and sent to fight the converging armies from 7 Arab countries - Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen. These armies were all well-trained and well-armed by the British or French. The always perfidious Brits left their Taggart Forts and ammunition to the Arabs upon their departure for England. The Arabs met this ghostly army of Jewish survivors and were driven back in shock by the Jews. The Arabs never forgot this humiliating loss. They call it 'Nakba', the catastrophe - which it was for them, both physically and psychologically. This was a loss to their testicle-driven manhood and a loss to their vaunted pride in the fertile imagination of their invincibility.

Later, the Jews from Arab countries were evicted from homes and businesses with their lineage going back thousands of years. They lived in tent camps but, unlike Arab refugees, the Jews of Israel accepted their own people and they were eventually absorbed by a new country which had no money, no external resources and few natural resources except their own brains, grit and faith. The Arab refugees were kept in deliberate squalor and never allowed citizenship in the Arab countries - although they claimed a spurious brotherhood.

cut

http://www.freeman.org/m_online/oct02/winston2.htm

[IndianaGreen]

63. Dan Senor, Paul Bremer's righthand man in Baghdad, is Israeli-American

so what else is new?

Americans love to rub people noses in the shit they create.

Had 9/11 taken place today, after the Iraq invasion, none of us would have been surprised that we got hit by people that hated us.

[Party of the People]

79. You are painting with a broad brush here and

it is uncomfortably reminiscent of Repuke tactics in the 1950's.

All this emphasis on Jews and Israel would raise tremendous red flags if it concerned any groups other than Jews and Israel!

[0007]

66. Who ever thought of this one, is plain crazy!

[0007]

71. What Iraqi tribe will be the most incensed by this incident?

The Wahhabi, the Sunni, the Kurdish, the Bat’this, or the Shi’ite?

Or does anyone truly know?

[Party of the People]

80. What difference does that make to you?

Do you know who Neville Chamberlain was? I think you have a lot in common.

[Judi Lynn]

74. Haven't read every post, but I know it would be hideous to plaster

the Christian cross all over a building in that country.

We don't do that with government sponsored actions right here. It's simply not done. Why would we be so uncouth to do it there? Don't answer that.

[Moderator]

85. I'm locking this thread.

Altogether too many posts in this thread are suggestive of or can be interpreted as anti-semitic.

It might be far more appropriate to take a moment to reflect that this is the beginning of the second day of Chanukah, the Festival of Lights, during which our friends, neighbors, and family (of man) members celebrate a victory against religious oppression and the rededication of the Jerusalem Temple. We all won something on this day many years ago.

Shalom.