Voting rights for felons.

[Eric J in MN]

A felon, in this context, is anyone ever convicted of a crime which carries a sentence of at least a year in prison.

Maybe we should organize to promote voting rights for felons?
http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/voting/c5.html
----------------------------------------------

Disenfranchisement also has a profound effect on society as a whole, says Chris Uggen, a sociologist at the University of Minnesota. He found that had felons been allowed to vote in the last presidential election, it would have changed the course of history.

"We looked at the 2000 election, of course, which was very hotly contested," explains Uggen. "When we add in the disenfranchised felons, we find that Al Gore would have likely won the popular vote by over million votes; and that indeed, in Florida alone, Gore would have picked up 60,000 to 80,000 votes. Enough to swamp the narrow victory margin that George Bush picked up in that state."

Uggen also found that shutting felons out of the process impacts state and national politics. Had felons been allowed to vote over the last couple decades, races across the country might have looked very different. That's because when given the chance, felons vote overwhelmingly Democratic. Their report showed that if felons could vote, the Republicans would have lost six or seven more Senate races, including those won by John Warner of Virginia and Mitch McConnell of Kentucky. Had that happened, Democrats would have retained control of the U.S. Senate.

Nonetheless, with few exceptions, Democrats in Congress have not championed the issue. Legislation to allow ex-prisoners to vote nationwide was brought up once in 2002 but failed. Uggen suggests that appearing soft on crime might cost Democrats more votes then they would gain. In addition, say those who follow money and politics in Washington, felons don't get a lot of attention because, as a group, they can't exactly fill Democratic coffers.

------------------------------------------------------------------
The article starts at:
http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/voting/c1.html

[Eric J in MN]

1. kick

kick

[Eric J in MN]

56. What is the law in your state? Click here.

The table on the middle of this webpage indicates the law in all 50 states.

An "X" means can't vote.

http://www.hrw.org/reports98/vote/usvot98o.htm#FELONY

(Table provided by Human Rights Watch).

[arewethereyet]

2. Don't know about the one year thing, felons are already defined

but I have always supported loss of voting rights for convicted felons. Felons as opposed to those convicted of misdemeanors. These represent serious crimes with a complete disregard for civil society.

[Eric J in MN]

4. What is it's a non-violent offense? The person should

What is it's a non-violent offense? The person should never be allowed to vote again for the rest of his life?

[arewethereyet]

5. if its a felony, no

non-violent felonies a la Ken Lay class fraudsters do not deserve to get their rights back. Blatant disregard for civil society either way.

One exception and this will never happen though it should.

If the slate is totally and completely wiped clean after time served, then OK. That means no job discrimination, no stigma and it demands an unpleasant and lengthy incarceration. Germany used to do this (they may still do it, not sure).

Make that happen and I'm OK with it.

[Kazak]

61. He does have a point though...

I know someone who cannot vote because they have been convicted of cultivation of marijuana...this person should have their voting rights removed indefinitely?

[alwynsw]

21. Non-violent offense - I have two words to say to that - no, four words

En Ron

World Com

Add another K-Mart

Nonviolent offenders. They only forced thousands to scuttle their entire retirement and/or investment plans. Their scullduggery cost thousands of people billions of dollars of their life's savings.

KMart - a part of their bankruptcy. Fleming Companies got a whopping 37 million out of 1.5 BILLION owed to them by KMart. Fleming is now in bankruptcy because of it and thousands more are laid off and have seen their company stock plan purchases drop from around $30.00 per share to less than a nickel per share. Oh, yeah! And everyone that held KMart common stock got ZERO from the creditors claim. All common stock was ruled worthless by the bankruptcy court. New stock was issued - not to the previous shareholders - but to other creditors and insiders.

They were non - violent types, too. Some officers are facing charges there for "accounting irregularities"

Yup. I want people such as these to be able to vote again after they've been convicted of bilking regular folks out of billions of dollars, causing irreperable financial harm to them and their families.

end of rant

[Eric J in MN]

32. CEO crooks are the tiniest percentage of convicts.

CEO crooks are the tiniest percentage of convicts.

They shouldn't be the basis of saying whether people convicted under more routine circumstances should be able to vote after leaving prison and re-join society.

[arewethereyet]

34. yes, thats true

but its the principle at stake here. can't flip this way and that on matters of principle.

[wanderingbear]

38. The poor are the largest Precent..

Hummm. Could their be a connection between Crime and poverty???

[arewethereyet]

43. yep, lawyers

but more significantly education

[wanderingbear]

45. Poor people get public defenders..

you might as well defend yourself then go with a public defender..Unless your planning to pleaed Guilty..Then he can get you a lesser sentance.

[arewethereyet]

50. yes they do, not the same thing (understatement of the year)

n/t

[arewethereyet]

33. thats why felonies are bad things

and felons deserve to lose something of value

[Nikia]

11. Are you saying that they should never be part of civil society?

A person may disregard civil society. They are suppose to learn through their sentence that they are not suppose to disregard civil society. They are suppose to become part of it again when they serve their sentence. A good way of becoming part of civil society is voting.
Do you think that it is fair to take away right as fundamental as voting for life someone who has finished their sentence say before the age of 25 and live the rest of their lives as law obeying members of civil society to old age?

[arewethereyet]

13. not at all

we are all obligated to coexist within civil society, failure to do that is what makes us felons. Once released, the obligation to coexist with civil society resumes. This only means to live your life lawfully. Don't confuse civil liberties with living civilly. The only good way to live civilly is to obey laws.

Since our society does not actually forgive and forget (see my other post for the exception to my position), I see no reason to reinstate the rights.

If society DOES want to forgive and forget then when you wipe that slate clean, by all means, wipe it completely clean. The problem is that this society basically does not believe that people can be trusted to change. Honestly, many can't but many is not all.

[wanderingbear]

16. Id disagree..

a civil society isnt about laws..Its about tolerance Co-operation and Understanding.. Theres generally a reason why someone breaks the law..Mostly its because of Poverty..Most people in prison come form the poor side of town. And law dosnt mean squat when it comes to survival.

[arewethereyet]

19. I respect your view

I'd have to say that without laws to set the bounds it would be hard to give tolerance, cooperation and understanding a framework to bind to.

I'd only suggest that there are lots of people on the poor side of town and not so many felons. It is possible to do the right thing as evidenced by these people. I believe that there are other factors at play that make people from all walks of life do wrong things.

[wanderingbear]

24. Its not the rules so much as the way they are enforced.

The criminal Justice system in the U.S. is cmopleatly inhumane.
They look people up in small cells like rats in a cage.. They strip them of every dignaty..Place them in situations where their lives are in danger on a dayly basis.Strip them of every human right and then turn around and call this justice.

[arewethereyet]

26. I can't argue that this system is deeply flawed

n/t

[alwynsw]

28. I believe that you're off on this one

Poverty does not cause crime. The commission of a crime is a choice. Poverty is not a choice once you reach the age that you can make your own way. You may not become rich, but poverty - in the U.S.A. - is a choice.

Go ahead flame away.

Point of interest. I grew up dirt farm poor. I got one pair of shoes each year - usually the absolute cheapest my mom could find. My extras were hand me downs. I got hand me down clothes, toys, hand me down everything. We couldn't afford much. But. Ya know what. My mom worked her ass off (single parent for most of my childhood - pop was an abuser) and did the best she could.

After I got out of the Air Force - I joined because even with scholarships college was economically impossible - I went to school on the GI Bill - still available in a different form for all GI's, worked my way up with a couple of companies, struck out on my own, did the entrepenurial thing, and retired in my mid forties.

I had the choice: dirt farm, sharecrop if you will, or get my ass in gear and make a better life. I'm nothing special. I'm no genius. I did work my ass off to get what I wanted.

You want more - work a second job. Flip burgers - walk dogs (I've done both and some other jobs that make people gag when they hear the details) - pick produce - ANYTHING for a second income. Invest a small part - even if it's a couple of bucks a month in a piss poor passbook account. You will get ahead.

Barring physical or mental disability, poverty is a choice in this country. Crime is also a choice.

end of rant

[wanderingbear]

29. When the choice is between going hungery and steeling a a lof of bread..

Your going to steel the loaf of bread..It dosnt take a geius to figure that one out.

[alwynsw]

35. Please avoid the personal slams.

The purpose of the board is discussion.

It would be a poor discussion indeed if we were all to parrot the same lines.

We obviously must agree to disagree on this one.

I recognize your opinion and strongly support your right to voice it. My opinion differs. Please grant me the same courtesy.

[wanderingbear]

39. I didnt make a personal slam.

Im sorry if you took it that way.

[alwynsw]

42. No problem

Civility is the latest fad. I love fads. They're so......FADDISH!

[wanderingbear]

44. Sorry..

Ive live all my life in poverty. Civility dosnt have much place on the streets. Ive only been living housed for the past three years.

[alwynsw]

51. You're moving up!

Congrats on the housing. I can't imagine any length of time on the streets, so I'll not cheapen your experience with a load of unqualified BS about knowing what you've been through. I don't know, therefore - no comment.

I can have heartfelt sorrow that you've had to endure it - and I do.

[arewethereyet]

31. way to go !

and as a counterpoint I'll offer the brother of a good friend who has just been charged with capital murder. Middle class kids both of them but one made good decisions (for the most part) and the other made poor decisions. And with each rationalization he got further and further in a hole of his own digging. Wound up murdering his ex-wife's grandmother for money.

Same genes, same background, very different outcomes.

I won't say that one's circumstances can't weigh on a person but its still up to them to choose even if its to cede your choice to someone else.

[wanderingbear]

37. I didnt say All crimes..

I said a majority.. THere are some people who are just nuts.. Its useually a matter of bad situations. But it still remains a fact.. That most Fellons come from a backgrond of poverty and neglect..
A great deal of our crime problem in this country could be solved by putting an end to poverty.

[alwynsw]

40. I agree in principle

Help from others, charities, and governmental agencies is a good thing - for a time. A helping hand definitely beats a handout. The only person who can ultimately raise one from poverty is that person himself.

A member of this board posted that on Thanksgiving, he/she went dumpster diving for bread to have with the holiday meal. Dumpster diving, while demeaning, is considered misdemeanor trespass in most jurisdictions. It is a far cry from theft - even petty theft - such as stealing a loaf of bread would be considered. Both are misdemeanors. Dumpster diving does not deprive the rightful owner of the property of his/her food, profit, or enjoyment of the bread. Stealing the bread does.

[wanderingbear]

41. Ya..Ive done it..

But your eatting some one elses Garbage.. Some one elses half eaten Big Mac and fries.. And beleave me it isnt always their.. Survival is a game that knows no laws.

[alwynsw]

46. It stinks, but it beats stealing

i remember doing that once or twice myself. NEVER AGAIN! (But I never went for the half eaten stuff. Just couldn't bring myself to do that.)

But, I live on a farm again. No going hungry regardless anymore.

I guess I'm just paranoid. Bought the farm, set up an irrevocable trust to pay the taxes, insurance, etc. plus a little stipend for repairs and such. Once you've been poor, you tend to do all in your power to avoid ever being that way again. I'm not rich, but I am comfortable.

[wanderingbear]

48. I think if you were at that point..

you would question your convictions on that.. But so far I have yet had to steal..Just lucky I guess..

[southerngirlwriter]

49. oh, for crying out loud

I hope you never find out how wrong you are.

I hope you never get married, have three kids, and then have your spouse get killed a week after the need for a new washer made his life insurance premium late. (How my friend Leslie became poor.)

I hope you never work your ass off for your kids, use all your savings of a lifetime to put them through college, then have a stroke and end up unable to work, getting $461 a month in SSI. (How my friend Marian became poor.)

I hope you never get laid off and then, on the day your health insurance lapses, get into a car wreck and end up paralyzed, unable to work, and on $611 a month in SSI. (How my friend David became poor).

I hope you never find out what a sanctimonious, arrogant, self-absorbed worldview you hold.

[alwynsw]

53. Nothing sanctimonious or arrogant about it. Definitely not self absorbed.

If you read my post carefully, you surely would have noticed that I expressly qualified my statement with "Barring physical or mental disability, poverty is a choice in this country. Crime is also a choice." As you point out, I could also have added a few other scenarios as you describe.

I am truly sorry that you missed my point. I stand by it. I could have written a lengthy disclaimer that catalogues every imaginable circumstance that can cause either poverty from the onset or financial disasters that drive some into poverty. Perhaps it was my oversight in attempting to succintly offer reasons for poverty that caused you to think me heartless.

on edit: If I were truly sanctimonious, would "I'm nothing special. I'm no genius." have been written into my post? I truly believe that. I'm an average guy. No more.

[WildThang]

54. It should be wiped clean

imo .. that's what punishment is for .. to pay the piper.

[wanderingbear]

59. Records and registrations are for Nazis

If their that dangerouse they shouldnt be let out at all.
Otherwise in a free nation you pay your dues and move on.

[Red State Rebel]

57. I agree...if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

People are given a choice to commit crime or not. If they haven't the sense to stay out of prison I don't trust them in the voting booth.

[arewethereyet]

58. there is somthing to be said for that as well.

thats the reason that I offer an exception for making time so bad that no one would risk going back. By that I mean you stay in your cell except for an hour every other week. You mess up your cell, you live with it. Books and magazines come around on a cart. Lots of time to consider how you got there. Nothing cruel, nothing violent and you save a lot of money on the cost of running the places to boot.

Do your time that way and you will be disinclined to go back and then your slate gets truely wiped clean.

It'll never happen here though it worked quite well in Germany.

The Koreans take it a bit farther in that they leave the feeding of the prisoner to the family. Thats probably over the top but it does reinforce a societal bias against condoning crime.

[ButterflyBlood]

3. do the crime, do the time, that's it.

once they've fulfilled their penalty, they should have the same rights. maybe not in actuality due to their record as a felon, but they should be denied no rights.

[Devlzown]

6. I agree.

When your debt to society is paid, it should be paid in full.

[mandyky]

7. Once they have done their full sentence,

including probation and parole, and maintain a clean record for "x" amount of time (1-5 years) voting rights should be reinstated.

[frogfromthenorth2]

8. Where I am from, they can vote even when they serve LIFE in prison...

That's what I call a PROTECTED right....

[Nikia]

9. They should vote after serving their sentence

A felon's freedom is suppose to be taken away for the duration of the punishment and then restored. Most felony sentences are not life sentence. Depriving someone of a right as fundamental as voting for committing a felony, especially a relatively short sentence as a young adult, is blantantly unfair.
Voting usually does not have anything to do with a crime. Voting helps a person integrate back into society. A felon, even a violent one, is no danger as a voter. It is not like we are letting someone buy a gun that was a convicted arm robber.

[wanderingbear]

10. There is no laws on the Books that say Felons cant vote..

Every citezen has the right to vote..The constitution guarerentees every U.S. citezen the right to vote with out excetion. The only way to remove the right to vote is to remove their ciezenship. And then by law they would have to be deported.

[arewethereyet]

14. there are laws on Virginia's books and 6(?) other states as well

and they used to exist in most or all of the rest, the others have been repealed.

I think there are 7 states with laws but I could be off a few, its a handful.

[wanderingbear]

17. Then this is something new..

It dosnt exsist where I live eather. I would tell you this.Takeing away voteing rights shure woudnt encorage me to be good, Just the opposite..I would likely go on the war path..

[arewethereyet]

23. these laws are very old ones, not new

and they have been getting repealed for a number of years here and there. Truth be told, most felons don't vote before or after for a variety of reasons.

[wanderingbear]

25. I havent been out side the state of Oregon sence I was 15..

We dont even have the death Penalty here.. Though we do have that stupid three strikes law. OUr Prison systm is now bankrupting tha state because of it,because it has grown so large.

[wanderingbear]

12. The democrats wouldnt champion this cause anyway..

Their to Mainsteam.The Greens would though..If it were nessissary.

[arewethereyet]

15. oh no,not so

dems DID champion the cause and have made this law in nearly all states and are working on the rest. Greens powerless to have an impact.

[wanderingbear]

18. I find that hard to beleave..

They useually vote with the repubicans on such issues.

[arewethereyet]

22. I don't disagree with the concept but the facts say otherwise

In 1950 it was either solidly no-vote or all no-vote and now there are only like 7 states left that way.

[wanderingbear]

27. That would explain my ignorance of this law..

It hasnt exsisted in my state with in my lifetime.

[arewethereyet]

36. thats entirely possible

and I can't say with certainty that it was in effect in EVERY state. Oregon (I believe I read you said) being a fairly recent state may not have started with it but in any event it could have been repealed 50 years ago. probably easy enough to find out with a quick google. I know there are web sites devoted to this issue.

[BiggJawn]

20. Most states restore your voting rights upon release from prison.

Indiana does.

Make as much sense as organizing to free farm-raised Chinchillas.

[Eric J in MN]

30. Florida is one of the states which says felons can't vote unless

Florida is one of the states which says felons can't vote unless they get a special exemption.

Florida is one of the most populous states, and its elections affect the
House of Representatives and the Presidency.

If felons could all vote in Florida, it would greatly benefit Democrats.

[Fescue4u]

47. If felons can get Bush defeated

Im all for it.

[Eric J in MN]

52. Absolutely. If every felon could vote after doing the time, it would

Absolutely. If every felon could vote after doing the time, it would be a huge pro-Democratic shift.

Citizens should be able to vote.

[Kazak]

62. Yes,...

I don't think voting is something that should be discouraged in any instance...

[GregW]

55. So I wonder ...

... how many people here wringing their hands because felons can't vote, were the same ones gnashing their teeth when BBV disclosed Diebold hired ... gasp ... ex-felons.

[Eric J in MN]

60. Different situation.

Ex-felons shouldn't handle sensitive technology which affect the votes of millions of people.

That's different than casting one vote.

[wanderingbear]

63. Why not???

That technology isnt that sensitive anyway..

[Eric J in MN]

64. Different for felons to design voting machines than to just to vote nt

nt

[wanderingbear]

65. Again Why??

Their just people..

[Eric J in MN]

71. the potential damage is different

If someone who has broken the law before breaks the law again by designing voting machines to steal an election, the consequences are horrible.

If someone who has broken the law before votes, good for him.

[kimchi]

66. If they've paid their dues, why not?

In the following snip it sounds like a cake walk to get your right to vote back.

"I have been released from incarceration. How do I restore my right to vote?

If you were convicted of a felony in Virginia, then you must obtain a "removal of political disabilities" from the Governor in order to regain your right to vote. You are eligible to apply for the removal of your political disabilities if you completed your sentence more than 5 years ago and if all court costs and restitution have been satisfied. To apply, contact:...."

The reality is that you need (as far as I remember from a friend going through this ten years ago) 3 letters of recommendation, a detailed work history, a form, an essay--and if you are as rich as my friend and your mom knows the governor it doesn't hurt either.

Now, I ask you, doesn't it suck to have to beg for you RIGHTS because of foolishly stealing a nice stereo from an ex-friend? He spent his entire sentence in a work release program--he continued to function in society. Not much of a threat there.

"Felony" is a broad term that people associate with murderers, when there are a lot of kids locked up for selling weed or stealing cars. The hoops you have to jump through as it is to regain your voting are plenty to weed out the bad seeds--who probably have no intention of voting anyway.

Just my thoughts.

[Padraig18]

67. I know the law in IL is this:

Only felons who are serving time in prison, or completing parole are denied the right to vote; after they have served their time, their franchise is reinstated.

[LeahMira]

68. Just a thought...

Shouldn't there be another word for people who have served their sentences and have stayed on the straight and narrow since? Those people aren't felons any more.

In addition, say those who follow money and politics in Washington, felons don't get a lot of attention because, as a group, they can't exactly fill Democratic coffers.

That's a shame... that everything comes down to money, even among Democrats.

[JHB]

69. Focus on preventing abuse

Trying to promote the voting rights of felons, even ones who've done their time in jail, is a tough sell, especially in places that boast of their "law & order" attitudes, so it is important to highlight cases where officials use a felon ban to abuse their position.

Case in point: Florida 2000, of course. What affected results more than the felon ban was the fraudulent "felon purge" from the voting rolls before the election. The purge was done using a new list that was found to be 95% erroneous (i.e., for every 100 of the names on it, only 5 should actually have been removed from the voter rolls in accordance with Florida State law), which led to a great number of ordinary qualified voters being wrongly removed. And to get this list, Kathy Harris spent millions more of taxpayer dollars than had been previously spent to maintain the old list -- not exactly an efficient use of tax dollars, eh?

[Bridget Burke]

70. Even in Texas

Felons regain their right to vote 2 years after the end of their incarceration/parole/probation. The vast majority of states allow ex-felons to vote. Why should this change? Shouldn't we encourage everybody to become part of the community?

Those folks saying "Ken Lay shouldn't be able to vote" ought to realize that he hasn't been charged with a thing. He's free & moving back into the higher realms of Houston society.