Should Rush Limbaugh’s assets be seized…?

[KansDem]

I personally don’t like the “Seizure and Forfeiture” act as I believe it establishes guilt before the trial, but since it is being used to “combat” illegal drug use in the War on Drugs (as well as non-drug related offenses), why hasn’t Limbaugh’s assets been seized?

As I recall, this was supposed to freeze the assets of a suspected drug dealer so that person couldn’t use his wealth to hire a “good” lawyer, however, haven't we all read/heard stories about this action being taken for simple possession?

http://www.onlinepot.org/legal/fedforfit.htm

(snip)
II. GENERAL EMPHASIS ABOUT SEIZURES

A. Civil not criminal proof of evidence
1. Civil - Preponderance (Tip Scales)
2. Criminal - beyond reasonable doubt

B. Seize and receipt money for investigation
C. Individual does not have to charged, arrested, or found guilty (much less P/C to keep money than convict person)
D. Can seize money with little probable cause or suspicion to investigate further
E. May be narcotic money, gambling money, or just stolen (large sums of money are just suspicious)
F. Basically who carries large sums of cash legitimately ($65,000 case)

III. TYPES OF SEIZURES
A. ADMINISTRATIVE - Handled internally by DEA (3 to 6 month turn around with no challenges)

B. JUDICIAL - Handled by U. S. District Courts by U. S. Attorney
1. Much longer turn around
2. Anyone can file cost bond to force administrative into judicial forfeiture
3. Over $100,000 must go judicial
4. Real property must go judicial

C. YOU ARE PRIMARILY CONCERNED WITH VEHICLES AND MONEY
1. VEHICLES - Can be seized for:
a. Transport illegal controlled substances
i. No threshold amounts of seizure
ii. 2 grams coke
iii. 2 Thai sticks
iv. Roach in ashtray (butt)
b. Purchased with drug proceeds
c. Utilized to facilitate drug transaction

2. MONEY
a. Drug proceeds
b. Utilized to purchase drugs
(more...)

So, how does Rush NOT fit into the “Seizure and Forfeiture” guidelines??? :shrug:

On Edit: Isn't Rush a Multi-Millionaire???

[joeybee12]

1. Nah, don't seize because I wouldn't fit into any of those clothes,

and besides, raging homphobes like himself never have anything nice--a definite lack of taste.

[bamademo]

2. Seize them all

Maybe there is Supreme Being and they're teaching Rush a long, slow, painful Karma lesson. :evilgrin:

[BlueEyedSon]

3. OMG, that would be an ENORMOUS seizure!

Ooops, I thought you said "ass"....

:shrug:

[jmcgowanjm]

9. puckered up: anatomical aspect of Rush right now

I don't want any more prosecution of Rush than
he wanted from any nonwhite poor muslim
mom drug user.

[BOSSHOG]

4. In Ashcroft's America

he is supporting terrorism. Seize his assets and send him to GTMO. He isn't a patriot according to the Patriot Act.

[tom_paine]

15. Agreed, BOSSHOG. Let him taste what he so glibly recommened for others

Would he understand? Feel shame? Repent of his disgracefuil hypocrisy?

Of course not. One might ask if Julius Streicher would do the same. Of course, history tells us Streicher had a similar opportunity to recant evil. He refused, like Limbaugh will.

www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Streicher.html

[MetaTrope]

22. No, in Ashcroft's America

he is supporting Purdue Pharmaceutical Products L.P. Let's keep this clear, shall we?

[smiley_glad_hands]

5. He doesn't fit because he's a Republican.

Didn't you know that it's not "PC" to do this to a Rethugican?

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. If it's legal and can be made to stick

DO IT

[Loonman]

7. Hell, yeah, he wants addicts "sent up"

Let's put the pig in a poke.

[PSR40004]

8. Drugs for personal use?

I believe that drugs for personal use should be legal, I know of no talk of rush selling to anyone so I don't think he would fit under the seizure guidelines. I understand we'd like to stick ol'rush in the eye but setting such a precident would be bad for alot of us.

[jmcgowanjm]

11. au contraire

multiple "money structures".
Making 100's of pills disappear everyday.

HOW many times have I heard the story-
"That pound of pot was for my personal consumption."
Suuure.

[htuttle]

12. He admitted yesterday that he bought more drugs than he could ever use

...At least use by himself.

In any other situation, with any other defendant, they would have already been charged with drug trafficking, merely on the basis of the quantity of drugs, and the amount of money involved.

And to the above: they DO seize property even just for possession. They do not need to prove sales in order for forfeiture to occur.

In fact, they don't even need to prove that a crime was committed -- you can be acquitted of any charges, and STILL have your stuff seized. You have to actually go to another trial to get your stuff back, not for you, for your stuff -- your stuff will actually be on trial, and you need to get it a lawyer (the court documents will actually say something like '1996 Chevrolet Caprice vs the State of Florida').

[Enraged_Ape]

18. The precedent's already been set

And it happens every day around this country as we throw no end of nonviolent drug offenders in jail.

Rush deserves no better than what your garden-variety street addict heroin junkie would get. In fact, he deserves worse. Just think of how much "terrorism" his drug addiction funded.

[htuttle]

10. Civil forfeitures have even occurred where no drugs were present

There are a lot of anecdotes about this sort of thing, most of them turn out to be true on investigation, BTW.

For example, an anecdote from the late '80's: a farmer was stopped (IIRC, it was Texas or OK), and found with over $10,000 in cash on him. It was seized on the grounds that an area behind the seat of his truck COULD have been used to transport drugs. No drugs were found. The farmer stated that he was on his way to a farm equipment auction, and that's why he had so much cash on him. There are, of course, dozens more cases just like this involving those stopped for 'driving while black' who happened to have a fairly large amount of cash on them, but no drugs.

I'm no fan of Civil Forfeiture either, but if anyone is ripe for seizure, it would be Rush. One could easily make the case that his whole 'EIB' network was both a product of drug activity, and benefited from it. It would be up to him to present the receipts that none of those tens of thousands of dollars he conducted drug transactions with ever touched anything to do with his 'EIB' network.

Given that the prosecuting police agency generally gets a healthy share of the 'profits' after Civil Forfeiture to spend on new cop toys, I'm surprised that his local police jurisdiction hasn't already taken this step.

[OldSoldier]

35. The drug-EIB disconnect would be impossible to prove

Assume Pigboy was dealing. That's the only reason he'd ever need that much Oxycontin. If he was dealing from the very first illicit transaction, he would still have had to get the money to buy the first batch, since the people at the wholesale level of the illicit drugs trade don't run open accounts. His money comes from EIB.

To prove that the EIB side of Rush Limbaugh had nothing to do with the drug dealing side of Rush Limbaugh would require the existence of the weirdest Chinese Wall you've ever seen. Chinese Wall is the term investment firms use when they've got people working both sides of a deal--say, a realty company serving both as seller's agent and as buyer's agent. When that happens, the usual practice is to assign different people to the two sides of the transaction and forbid them professional contact during the transaction. This is a weird wall because the pivotal player in both the EIB side of Rush's life and the dope-pushing side of it is Rush.

[leftofthedial]

13. he should have his assetts seized

just like anyone else in his circumstances would.

Then he should be arraigned and forced to raise exorbitant bail.

Just like anyone else would.

this is the system he has advocated and helped to put in place in Murka.

Why should he be immune? This is grossly unjust.

[Randi_Listener]

14. I want his assets seized

I live near Rush, anyone want me to pick up something in particular at the fire sale?

[Jacobin]

16. Absolutely. It's all part of the criminal enterprise

They would seize every fucking asset of any other major doper.

Why not Rush?

Hell, he's called for that treatment for others. Is it too much to ask that he be given the same treatment?

[zbdent]

17. So, how much do you think the "Golden EIB Microphone" will fetch

on eBay?

Once you disinfect the spittle, of course . . .

[Enraged_Ape]

19. There's no disinfecting that spittle

You'd have to melt it down into cufflinks.

[Brewman_Jax]

20. Why not?

Druggie boy is supporting terrorism. Let him suffer the same fate as anyone here--take and auction his assets and let him rot in jail awaiting trial.

[YNGW]

21. Uhhhhh...

I hate to destroy your X-mas lists, but Rush isn't going to have anything happen to him.

First of all, he's not a dealer, he's a user. Law enforcement doesn't want users, they want distributors. He is entitled to the best defense he can afford, just like everyone else in his income bracket has done. He has no priors, he has a list of character references a mile long, and his addiction was a result of having become addicted to pain medication he was intially prescribed. He's going to sit there and say he became addicted and couldn't stop, but he's sought treatment and will continue to do so, that he's co-operating with authorities, and he's off. Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts.

[MetaTrope]

23. Doesn't possession of a certain amount of a controlled substance

automatically define one as a dealer under the law?

[YNGW]

26. I've never heard of that.

He was getting it for his own personal use. He makes enough $$$, he doesn't need to deal. They would have to prove he was dealing, and I've not even heard that mentioned.

I had a neighbor who had a similar circumstance as Rush. Slap on the wrist, rehab, he's back to leading his daily routine.

[MetaTrope]

29. Here it is...

Florida Statutes Title XLVI Chapter 893:

(c)1. Any person who knowingly sells, purchases, manufactures, delivers, or brings into this state, or who is knowingly in actual or constructive possession of, 4 grams or more of any morphine, opium, oxycodone, hydrocodone, hydromorphone, or any salt, derivative, isomer, or salt of an isomer thereof, including heroin, as described in s. 893.03(1)(b), (2)(a), (3)(c)3., or (3)(c)4., or 4 grams or more of any mixture containing any such substance, but less than 30 kilograms of such substance or mixture, commits a felony of the first degree, which felony shall be known as "trafficking in illegal drugs," punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. If the quantity involved:

a. Is 4 grams or more, but less than 14 grams, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of 3 years, and the defendant shall be ordered to pay a fine of $50,000.

b. Is 14 grams or more, but less than 28 grams, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of 15 years, and the defendant shall be ordered to pay a fine of $100,000.

c. Is 28 grams or more, but less than 30 kilograms, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of 25 calendar years and pay a fine of $500,000.

(I gather Rush had over 150 grams in his possession, which would place him in that last category...)

[htuttle]

31. Thanks for that link!

That is exactly what I was looking for.

[htuttle]

32. Wouldn't he be guilty of this item?

From the same link, next item on the list on that page:

...
2.  Any person who knowingly sells, purchases, manufactures, delivers, or brings into this state, or who is knowingly in actual or constructive possession of, 30 kilograms or more of any morphine, opium, oxycodone, hydrocodone, hydromorphone, or any salt, derivative, isomer, or salt of an isomer thereof, including heroin, as described in s. 893.03(1)(b), (2)(a), (3)(c)3., or (3)(c)4., or 30 kilograms or more of any mixture containing any such substance, commits the first degree felony of trafficking in illegal drugs. A person who has been convicted of the first degree felony of trafficking in illegal drugs under this subparagraph shall be punished by life imprisonment and is ineligible for any form of discretionary early release except pardon or executive clemency or conditional medical release under s. 947.149. .
...

[MetaTrope]

33. Thirty kilograms would be more than 60 lb.

I'll give The Bloated One the benefit of the doubt here...

[htuttle]

34. Doh!

Metric scale error. Didn't notice the 'k'.

It's that same sort of mistake that got me fired from NASA.
(just kidding...).

[YNGW]

36. People...

I already told you he's not going to serve any time. Zilch. Zero. Nada. Now, you can keep speculating and hoping and praying if you wanna waste your time, or you can accept reality. Besides, he's nothing but a radio jock. He doesn't hold any elected office. There are bigger fish to fry.

[MetaTrope]

37. So "mandatory minimum term" has no meaning anymore?

And after all that effort the neocons went through to get such laws in place, too.

[htuttle]

38. There a very few BIGGER fish

But probably some more important ones.

He is this generation's Father Coughlin, however, so I won't give it a rest. Hell, no!

[htuttle]

30. Your information is out of date

Google on 'trafficking possession quantity' for about a zillion links about prosecution guidelines for what quantities of drugs constitute an assumption of drug trafficking.

Here's just one from HG471T in Missouri, Ashcroft's home state:
http://www.house.state.mo.us/bills01/bilsum01/truly01/sHB471T.htm

(b) Adds the delivery of, or possession with intent to
manufacture of, more than 24 grams of precursor drugs to
existing drug trafficking law, with a legitimate business
exception. Possession of more than 24 grams is prima facie
evidence of both intent to deliver drug paraphernalia and intent
to manufacture amphetamine or methamphetamine. All violations
are class D felonies (Sections 195.235 and 195.246); and

Yea, I know they are talking about meth and not hillbilly heroin, but there are similar guidelines regarding Schedule II drugs like Oxycontin (actually, that is the same 'rating' as Cocaine -- Schedule II).

And here's a link to a story about a dozen or so people busted in an Oxycontin 'ring' last May, so it hardly matters whether a particular drug is available by prescription or not -- if the prescription is bogus...:
http://www.overtoncountynews.com/archives2003/news05-07-2003.html

Finally, whether Rush was rich or not or needed the money or not doesn't really enter into this. Remember John DeLorean? He wasn't exactly poor...

[Catshrink]

28. I think you're right

one of my students had a huge number of diet pills in her locker that was searched during a routine "random" locker search. The admin deemed that the quantity was large enough to classify her as a distributor. Since the pills weren't illegal though (the kids use them with booze to get a big buzz) she was given in-school suspension for a couple of days. They also required her to go to drug counseling.

[KansDem]

24. “Presumed Guilty”

This six-day series chronicles a frightening turn in the war on drugs. Ten months of research across the country reveals that seizure and forfeiture, the legal weapons meant to eradicate the enemy, have done enormous collateral damage to the innocent. The reporters reviewed 25,000 seizures made by the Drug Enforcement Administration. They interviewed 1,600 prosecutors, defense lawyers, cops, federal agents and victims. They examined court documents from 510 cases. What they found defines a new standard of justice in America: You are presumed guilty.

http://256.com/gray/presume/

(excerpts)
The opening for this corrosion of civil rights was the amendment of the racketeering laws, starting in 1984, to permit authorities to confiscate possessions of suspects never charged with crimes, much less convicted. This radical departure from traditions of law was justified in terms of seizing the assets of drug criminals," as the White House National Drug Strategy put it, and helping "dismantle larger criminal organizations."

So much for intentions. Mr. Schneider and Ms. Flaherty's 10-month investigation documents more than 400 cases of innocent people forced to forfeit money or property to federal authorities. These victims are farmers and factory workers, small-business owners and retirees. Often, their only offense was exhibiting behavior or personal traits considered typical of drug couriers.

(and)

But there are instances - far too many of them - in which financial incentive and lack of safeguards have pushed the "good guys" over the line. in Hawaii, federal prosecutors combed through records of old cases looking for opportunities to seize property. They took the home of Joseph and Frances Lopes, a couple of modest means whose son had pleaded guilty four years earlier to growing marijuana in the backyard for his personal use. "The Lopeses could be happy we let them live there as long as we did," an arrogant G-man snorted.

Now, what is this about “dealer” vs. “user,” priors, character references, and the “best defense he can afford” when the S&F act was passed to prevent those citizens accused of illegal drug use of using their wealth to purchase themselves the “best defense?”

It appears the Feds can do whatever they want. So why are they NOT doing it to Rush?

[YNGW]

27. Reply

I agree that drug dealers should not use the money gained as a result of their dealing to buy their defense, but Rush makes $30M a year and has for years now. That can easily be shown to not involve drugs.

I'm not saying the system is perfect. It never has been nor will it ever be. I'm just telling you what's going to happen.

[cosmicdot]

25. i don't like forfeiture either ... but, Ashcroft does ...

he danced around Senator Leahy's questions during confirmation

... go on Mr. Atty General ... annoint ol'Rush with some of that jusssticcccce ...

let's get the hypocrisy out there front and center

... parents, friends, family of someone 'busted' for something victimless, having the book thrown at them ... property seizures ... primarily because of race or financial status ... enough is enough

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but, do apply them to Rush in order to send the message ... quite ironic considering what he does in making a killing (living)

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on the other hand, of course, who'll account for anything seized?

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ohhhhhhhhh ...
we got trouble ... right here in River City ... corruption is rampant ... and that begins with "C" which rhymes with "T" ... oh, we got trouble ...

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now, if only a shoe could fall in the direction of Falwell or Robertson, some traction might occur (shoot, I thought we had traction with Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker, and that Jimmy Swaggert ...

bring back Church Lady ... she nailed them on Church Chat

[LatteLib]

39. Rush makes the Republican Party look bad

He should have stayed within the legal guidelines he spouts on his program. His hypocrisy is known to the entire country. If they want to keep looking good to their religious constituency, they will need to put Rush through the court system and let the chips fall where they may.
His records were made available because of HIPPA.
He is contributing to terrorism because of the Patriot Act.
He probably didn't intend to contribute to terrorism but most addicts that get their pills in the Denny's parking lot probably don't intend to contribute to terrorism either.
Is he on methadone?
If he is, does he pay for it or is it through a government program?
If it is through a government program, (hear that sucking sound?) that would be Rush at the government teat that he is so against.