Obesity tax.

[rwork]

I heard this on C-Span yesterday. The host of the show asked Morton Krondrake about an article he had written entitled Obesity Tax. I thought they must be joking, but no they were dead serious. The host asked him how would they collect it? A tax on fast foods? MK also critised people for buying cheaper Canadian drugs. The usual republican talk, we have to protect our drug manufacturers so they can make a profit because it takes so much money to develop new drugs. Sometimes I feel like I am in a bad dream that I can't wake up from.

[Skittles]

1. it's disgusting

better start taxing those who don't exercise, those who drink too much, etc. Morton was the absolute definition of a republican whore. Listening to him made me feel sick.

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. We ran a saturated-fat tax...

...fifteen years ago as a funding plank in a debate case and it never lost.

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. Debating

Is not real public policy. Americans are tired of people telling them how to live, eat, sleep, etc.

[Bandit]

47. Ya like Rush and all don't tell people how to live eat sleep etc.

Americans are lapping it up like mad. I guess it all depends on "Which americans" you are referring to and how they are told to live. If it is right wing points they are all for it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Then too

Americans like it when they get to make choices for themselves.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. I don't remember that at all

but I was still in high school and not all that aware of anything outside of my little self-absorbed teen world.

[JanMichael]

4. How about an Idiot Tax? That makes more sense.

Krondrake would owe quite a bit.

[LincolnMcGrath]

6. We have an Idiot Tax!

It`s called Lotto.

[creativelcro]

39. Also, it's called "idiots cannot figure out how to lower their taxes"

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. The "obesity costs us money" crap

is just another ploy to keep us scared and spending money. We eat bad food cause it's cheap and easy to grab on the, run, then we plunk down big bucks for pills and programs to shed the weight.

The fast food and diet industry loves it this way!

Thing is, until we can a) shorten the average American worker's day, and b) lower the prices of healthy foods, we aren't going to see a real change in the obesity trend.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Lars39]

10. .........where everyone could get healthcare

and health problems would be treated.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Two myths about obesity

"Myth Number 1: "Obesity kills 300,000 people a year"
This figure was based on a 1993 study by Michael McGinnis and William Foege which appeared in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. What McGinnis and Foege actually calculated was that "dietary factors and activity patterns that are too sedentary" contributed to 300,000 deaths a year. (JAMA 270 - Nov 10, 1993 pp 2207-2212)

The New England Journal of medicine misrepresented the findings of this study as to state that 300,000 deaths were caused by obesity as did other media sources and in 1998, McGinnis and Foege published a letter of concern in the JAMA stating that the results of their study had misrepresented by the NEJ and other media sources. (JAMA 338, Ap 16, 1998 p. 1157) The scientists named obesity, hypertension, heart disease and cancer as some of the side effects of our 'dietary and activity' patterns but could not discern how many deaths were attributable to each single factor.

Myth Number Two: "Obesity is a greater health risk than smoking"

The Rand Institute generated this myth from this source:

"The telephone survey, which was conducted in 1998, asked 9,585 adults about their weight, height, smoking and drinking habits, income and quality of life. They also were asked if they had any of 17 chronic health problems, including asthma, cancer, diabetes and heart problems."

It's a telephone survey -- with no way of verifying truth or accuracy -- it's all opinion.

Taking that into account, few people can accurately describe a specific problem they are having with their doctor -- let alone accurately portray their state of health to a telephone surveyor.

So how can this survey carry so much validity with the public?

The media reported it as such, that's why!"

More here: http://www.size-acceptance.org/bluedawn/

[DemExpat]

12. My GP has always explicitly told me that my extra weight

is not such a health risk for me - that I am a healthy woman as I am.
Losing weight would be fine if not done too quickly and not in the yo-yo manner - for that seems to be unhealthier than carrying around some extra weight - but that I should not fear early death and disease because of it!

A slightly different story from the ones we read about in the media......

:shrug:

DemEx

[Malva Zebrina]

59. why do we need excess weight?

to begin with? All those who walk around with excess fat and excess weight are , imo, not very pleasant to look at and not representative of good health. Sorry, but that prejudice is, imo, justified.

Fat people breed fat children and fat people make up excuses for thier over indulgence and their addiction to food. IMO.

I submit that we are not being told exactly what the health risks are. We eat too much and that is the problem, imo. We love to eat and indeed, love to overeat and we are arrogant about our fat people as they waddle along breeding more little fat children who also waddle along like pigs. It is not normal and it is not necessary. It occurs because we in this country have been duped into buying and have been duped in believing that we need to eat more than what is necessary

[DemExpat]

65. You are entitiled to have that prejudice, Marianne, we all have ours.

And nobody NEEDS excess weight, but, you know, living here on this planet doesn't always provide the perfect circumstances for everybody to have perfect health.

Some doctors, like mine, realize that a person's stress level and worry about weight is possibly more detrimental to one's health than the actual few excess poundage carried around.

My husband is, and always has been, very thin, so perhaps with his genes, my kids lucked out - neither are anywhere near overweight, never have been, and are both in their early 20s now.
I breastfed my children for several years with the intention of providing them with physical closeness, love, and human milk - hopefully to prevent them from looking for love in all the wrong places (like in food, early sex, etc) when they were older :D

We'll see.

Obesity IS a huge problem, but living a healthy life otherwise, with healthy food choices, moderate exercise, and a relaxed attitude towards one's health and body size do a hell of a lot towards creating health.

i am convinced that it is not the quantity alone, but the quality of food, the level of stress in some (most) peoples lives, and environmental conditions, such as use of the car for all mobility, contaminents, chemicals, and pollution of our air, food, water etc. creating allergies, immune system weaknesses, and hormonal imbalances that is causing such increases in obesity......along with the over-abundance of food and choice that we have here in the developed world.

Your depiction of fat people and their fat children betrays to me a misplaced disatisfaction ....surely no people who have done you no harm deserve such loathing!

DemEx

[Le Taz Hot]

78. I beg to ask you a question

and it can be a rhetorical one if you choose. Are you female and over 40?

For my entire adult life I was a perfect size "0". You read that right. "0" And I ate like a horse and NEVER exercised. Meanwhile, my friends who considered themselves overweight ate like pidgoens and couldn't seem to lose more than a few pounds. Always dieting. Always going to the gym. And always miserable.

Fast forward to age 41. I started gaining weight. So I cut down on my caloric intake. (I rarely eat red meat or fast food -- been doing that one for 30 years.) And I kept gaining. I started an exercise regime (4 days a week, 1 hour each session) and continued to cut my caloric intake. And I kept gaining.

After discussing it with my physician I was informed that I was experiencing 2 things: 1) My metabolism had naturally slowed down and 2) the women in my family were GENETICALLY predisposed to being over weight beginning in their 40's.

You know, dear, I may be overweight (at the moment) but I love life and I love most people and I don't have the horrendous burdon of sanctimony and passing judgement on people based solely on their appearance. How sad that you've chosen to limit your exposure to only the "beautiful people." You'll never know the riches you've missed.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

79. Brava, Le Taz Hot!

I have lost so much respect for some of these DUers I had the utmost respect for until these threads. What if you formed an online friendship with someone and when he/she met you, all they could think of was how superior they were to you because you were 10 lbs. overweight? How different are these attitudes from the freeper ones that we make fun of on DU?

[Iverson]

97. You've got it exactly right.

:thumbsup:

[philosophie_en_rose]

83. Call the Eugenicist !

I'm sorry that there are people that are not pleasing to your eyes. However, public policy should not inflict personal biases onto other people.

[dawn]

84. I think that comment is pretty insensitive, IMO.

And what do you consider "excess weight"? A few extra pounds? 5 pounds? 10 pounds? Anything more than skin & bones?

For some people, it is not normal to be stick skinny.

I think it's unpleasant to talk to people who are rude. Perhaps we need a "rudeness" tax? Most people in this country would need to pay up, big time!

[chefgirl]

98. To each his own, Marianne

You said
" All those who walk around with excess fat and excess weight are , imo, not very pleasant to look at and not representative of good health. Sorry, but that prejudice is, imo, justified"

I would submit to you that for every single person walking the face of the earth, there is another person who thinks they are not very pleasant to look at.......that would include you.
I would say to those people "If you dont like the way I look, dont look"
I dont remember ever being told that my appearance has to be 'pleasant' to anyone.

FYI: Im 5'0 tall and weigh 115lbs, and I guarantee there are some idiots who would call me fat. I dont intend to lose sleep over them, just as I didnt lose sleep over them when I weighed nearly 200lbs, and I suggest you (and others who share your opinion) should do the same when it comes to other people's obesity.

-chef-

edited for punctuation

[Cheswick2.0]

105. Wow, you are one honest person

<<<We eat too much and that is the problem, imo. We love to eat and indeed, love to overeat.... and we are arrogant... and we waddle along breeding more little fat children who also waddle along like pigs.>>>

I would never talk about my children and myself that way. So are you going to put your "piggish little fat kids" on a diet?

[Malva Zebrina]

60. why do we need excess weight?

to begin with? All those who walk around with excess fat and excess weight are , imo, not very pleasant to look at and not representative of good health. Sorry, but that prejudice is, imo, justified.

Fat people breed fat children and fat people make up excuses for thier over indulgence and their addiction to food. IMO.

I submit that we are not being told exactly what the health risks are. We eat too much and that is the problem, imo. We love to eat and indeed, love to overeat and we are arrogant about our fat people as they waddle along breeding more little fat children who also waddle along like pigs. It is not normal and it is not necessary. It occurs because we in this country have been duped into buying and have been duped in believing that we need to eat more than what is necessary

[camero]

132. oh jesus h. christmas

it is just as bad to be underweight as it is to be overweight. Are you going to also pick on thin or undernourished people for being a "drain on society".

I didn't think so.

[Bombtrack]

14. So obesity is not worth worrying about? Is that your point?

that's insane. When obese and overweight people start living healthy lifestyles in this country, the American taxpayer benefits, but much more than that individual people's lives are transformed for the better dramatically.

Not to mention America becoming a less gluttonous country

[creativelcro]

40. It's true. Obesity costs a ton of money. This "healthy food is expensive"

is a pile of crap.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

61. Healthy food IS expensive

Come on. You live in Cambridge. You KNOW how expensive it is to eat healthily. Shop at Whole Foods much? I used to eat organic/free range but can no longer afford it. I have been doing a lot of cooking and baking lately and have been horrified at the cost of eating well. Here is a link to a discussion the other night outlining some of my recent purchases:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=562661#562667

BTW I was thin my whole life until my thyroid went haywire a few years ago. I gained 50 lbs in two years while exercising and eating fairly well. They put me on medicine and I'm now close to my normal weight, thanks to Levoxyl and Atkins.

Thyroid and other physical issues can make people obese. I think the lack of empathy on this thread is pretty horrifying.

[Bandit]

48. "lower the prices of healthy foods,"

I guess carrots and celery and apples are through the roof these days? :crazy:

[Indiana Democrat]

51. Eating healthy is a LOT cheaper than Fast Food.

It may take a little more time and planning, but it's NOWHERE near as expensive as eating at resteraunts all the time.

[Bombtrack]

13. are you people kidding me? Obesity does cost us money, and they should

be institutionally discouraged, by the government, through taxes and subsidies for wieght loss.

Corporate America, both the pharmaceutical and food industries are big contributors to a huge class of Americans who don't know how to, or are unable to live healthily, both with food and drugs, and crap tv, you name it.

And liberals are supposed to favor government intervention to balance it out.

Maybe 1 percent or less of obese and very overwieght people actually have some completely physical, rather than mental, problem which prevents them from losing weight like a thyroid problem or something, but other than that, it's people stuck in a very bad habitual lifestyle.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. So, what is the ideal weight?

Hell, doctors can't even agree on that.

What is the ideal diet? Changes all the time.

What should we eat? Well, it seems like everything causes cancer. Maybe we should just all have protein shakes and vitamins and stop eating anything else.

[Bombtrack]

17. There isn't an ideal weight

but your body fat % shouldn't be over a certain amount. I'm going to go out on a limb and just speculate you might be defensive about your own weight. I used to be overweight myself(definetly not obese), but unlearning my unhealthy lifestyle and starting to eat good foods and exercizing was bar none the best thing I ever did, and there are millions of people with the same story, and probably none who regret it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. LOL

Have you looked at professional athletes. Some have extremely low body fat and violate the guidelines, but are in great shape.

How do you determine body fat? Are all people the same? All ethnic groups the same? All ages?

I doubt it. I think the best the government can do is come up with guidelines that are vague and most likely inaccurate in many cases.

As for my own weight, I'm only a few pounds over, so I'm not defensive about it at all. I could use to lose a few, but clearly don't care all that much or I would do so.

And I think there are a bunch of folks who regret exercising. Does the name Jim Fixx mean anything to you?

Jim Fixx

Born: Apr. 23, 1932

author who popularized the sport of running; his 1977 bestseller The Complete Book of Running, is credited with helping start America's fitness revolution; died of a heart attack while running.

Died: July 20, 1984 -- age 52

[Bombtrack]

20. jesus, talk about a red herring

I think my mind is getting unhealthy debating the obvious, I can't do it any more.

Yeah, the people with toned bodys who can run 6 miles without getting winded and do 100 pushups are the ones lying to themselves and waisting there time avoiding packaged chemical puffs with lardsauce, they'd be just as happy and healthy, and no less beneficial to the American healthcare system and the reduction of American resentment if they inhaled 10 peanut-butter and fluff sandwitches on whitebread with a 12-pack of coke everyday and had 4 chins

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Clearly you missed the point

The point is that there is no one-sized fits all approach to weight or body fat. And that what we eat, how much we eat, etc. is a moving target and one scientists, nutritionists and doctors rarely agree on.

Yes, we all know what excessive overeating is, but that is rare. Sure, most Americans are somewhat overweight. That's what happens when you have plenty of food and most don't have manual jobs.

But to tax people for that or to tax their food? No way.

[Indiana Democrat]

52. One size fits all??

Yes there is...

It's called buring more calaries than you intake.

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Wrong

Lots of things impact weight -- thyroid, drugs, etc.

[Dogmudgeon]

28. You don't know what you're talking about

Do you really think most obese people eat huge amounts of un-virtuous food, lounge around the house all day and watch TV? There is an enormous amount of medical research that demolishes that cozy little moral stance.

Before you think this is purely a personal attack on you, I'd like to point out that it's exactly the same false idol that The Powers That Be would like us to worship. Keeping people convinced of their own inferiority, moral turpitude and weakness keeps people in line and more easily manipulated. This isn't a conspiracy, just economics -- there is no incentive to allow the buying and voting public to think they have any control over anything.

The current "epidemic" of obesity probably comes from a large number of factors, of which "inhaling" junk food in front of the TV is but a small contributor. Physical stress, increased levels of serum cortisol, skyrocketing allergy rates, increased usage of metabolically active medications (such as SSRI antidepressants), and an all-pervading sense of powerlessness in relationships, employment, and politics might have something to do with it, too. A large number of other problems in addition to obesity might be caused by them, too.

In spite of it all, obesity is not the direct cause of any of the diseases we associate with them. Insulin and C-reactive protein levels in the blood are much better correlated to these diseases than is obesity, and obesity is probably related by some common factor(s) that also raise(s) insulin and C-reactive protein.

I envy the people with the "toned bodys". Society has judged them as Beautiful, Ethical, and Moral, and fatties like me as the opposite to that. However, even at 100 pounds overweight, I can still hike about five miles in just over an hour's time. I eat a very heart-healthy diet. I have some problems from the weight, but nothing that can't be handled by a set of $11 shoe inserts. And most of all, I don't have the common conceit that thin=virutous and fat=indolent.

Your mind is not getting unhealthy debating the obvious -- you simply believed the set of moralizing lies that are promoted as "common sense." It is an easy trap to fall into, but I would still encourage you to get educated about it.

--bkl

[FlaGranny]

31. Let me add that the genes that store fat are our survival genes.

Prehistoric humans who could store extra fat were the survivors and, thus, our ancestors. Even today, if some world wide disaster should strike and food should become scarce, fat storers would be the survivors.

Let me also add that my mother lived to be 94 years old and was overweight her entire adult life. She was healthy as a horse until she developed bone/blood cancer when she was 86. She survived eight years with a cancer that normally kills very quickly, within a year or two. She never lost her appetite and maintained a overweight body until the very end of her life. My father, also somewhat overweight most of his life lived to 90.

I might add that I'm overweight, but the couple of medical problems I have, have absolutely nothing to do with being overweight - allergies and multiple sclerosis. My blood pressure is normal. My cholesterol and triglycerides are normal, and I get exercise every day. I haven't had a cold for two years. I'm healthy and fully expect to live to my 90's or beyond.

Of course, if someone is one or two hundred pounds or more overweight, that IS probably dangerous, but I feel the type of food eaten is more detrimental than just being overweight (I suspect sugar and refined carbs combined with saturated fats).

Disgust at mild obesity, which is often displayed, even on this web site, is purely cultural. I wish I lived in Reuben's day. I'd be a sought-after femme fatale.

[scarlet_owl]

72. Thank you very much. I was just about to post the same thing.

I am not a glutton, nor am I lazy (I joke about it, but I really do my best to be healthy). I am overweight by eighty pounds, all of which were put on in the last five years since I've been on my anti-depressants. I never had a weight problem in my life until recently, and I used to find it very easy to make fun of obese people. It is very easy to pass judgement and say things like "why don't you just stop eating junk?" when you don't have a weight problem. It's true, people treat me differently. I'm sorry if my "unattractive" body is offensive to some. I, and all fat people, still have feelings and we can still hear when someone says something hurtful.

[dawn]

86. One of my best friends has health problems, and gained weight...

Some of her old friends were embarrassed to be seen with her. They make me sick! Yeah, I live in Southern California, land of the plastic snobs, but to not want to be seen with an overweight person? She used to cry because of it.

I am sorry that people treat you differently because you have gained weight. You don't need those people!

[chefgirl]

99. Seems to me

That the people who used to be fat themselves are sometimes the most rabidly prejudiced toward overweight people. x(

-chef-

[Kathy in Cambridge]

100. Or the fear of losing control

Control over food may be the one area in their life where they actually have any control. And the fat person is the reminder of how fleeting it is.

[Malva Zebrina]

71. How do you determine body fat? Are all people the same?

Fat, is fat and we all recognize a fat person when we see one

[dawn]

88. So? What do you suggest we do with them?

I can't believe I am reading this stuff on DU!

I'm new, and ready to leave because of this. This is a liberal board?

I respect your right to free speech, but this is insane.

[Muddleoftheroad]

104. What if one is passing as thin?

Yes, your comment smacks of the racism I have heard all my life.

Sorry, we don't know what is fat. Is a woman fat who just had a baby? Or is she simply starting to lose that weight? Is a man fat who has thyroid problem and his weight flucuates?

Who are you to decide who is fat? And who is anyone to decide what they should or should not do about it?

[lefty_mcduff]

23. Good for you.

I quit drinking two years ago, and quit smoking 6 months ago, and as a result of nibbling, snacking and the like have put on 70lbs. God knows what my bodyfat percentage is, but it's probably over your 'certain amount'. Now, which do you think is more of a hazzard to my health? Under this boneheaded idea, I could go back to smoking and drinking (and lose the weight again) and avoid the tax?

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. They want to control everything

How much you eat, drink, smoke, watch TV, read, exercise or have sex.

[Frederic Bastiat]

26. God forbid you should exercise

:eyes:

[lefty_mcduff]

27. You missed the point.

If this was about 'health' rather than another attempted tax on the poor (who eats fast-food on a too regular basis? pResident Evil's rich cat friends?) then bodyfat content would NOT have anything to do with it. Typical RW bullshit (just look who is pushing the theory)

Having a bodyfat percentage that is too low is a health risk as well - so by peverse extension should we tax 'skinny people' as well? After all, they're not even paying taxes at the restaurant check-out. Freeloaders!

And dude, I do exercise. Just at 43 can't lose it as fast as I can put it on. And the point you missed - I'm healthier now (according to my doc) than when I was a skinny fucker smoking 25 a day. Pay attention.


.

[Indiana Democrat]

53. You should just exercize more.

As much as it takes.

[dawn]

85. What's next, putting overweight people in concentration camps?

That's great that you lost weight. Let people live their own lives!

I always laugh when I return to America after visiting other countries. Yes, we are fatter. And we are also more uptight and neurotic about our diets and other people's weights!

[TahitiNut]

16. So, bearing the penalties of poor health and early death ...

... isn't enough? Heaven forbid that the victims of their own poor choices (assisted, of course, by business interests all-too-willing to sell them both the cause and the cure) should escape additional misery merely because both the quality and the quantity of their lives is materially harmed ... we (The People) should impose additional penalties?

The funny (strange, not ha-ha) thing is that comprehensive studies of the economic impacts of such unhealthy practices as smoking and obesity seem to show that such people actually pay far more than their "fair share" ... since they collect less Social Security and pay far greater taxes ... and typically die right around the time that employers have no further use for them. Indeed, most of the deaths (due to cardiovascular problems) aren't even prefaced with costly or prolonged medical treatment.

My father, for instance, died of a massive heart attack at the age of 64 while leaning forward from his barstool to light a lady's cigarette. He was dead before he hit the floor. Classy. Having worked his entire life, including three hitches in the CCC Camps and service in the Seabees during WW2, we had no further use for him. Yes, he smoked (highly taxed) cigarettes and drank (highly taxed) alcoholic beverages ... and we 'collected' the monstrous sum of $250 from Social Security to help pay for his cremation. God forbid "We The (thin and smart) People" have to pay for that stuff, huh? :eyes:

Sorry to be so <rantish> ... but I tire of such "blame the victim" perspectives. It seems to me we could find far more cooperative ways of feeling superior to others.


Perhaps if our 'capitalist system' were able to make greater profits from people who stay healthy than from people who consume unhealthy (profitable) products and the consequent (profitable) services of the medical industry then we'd have a healthier nation? Maybe if we worked people until they were 80, enriching others by their labors, the plantation elitists would want them to stay healthier? (Nawww...)

[Bombtrack]

18. the tax is meant to prevent those penalties

that's why it's called a vice-tax. Smoking went down from the increased taxes, and so would crap-food indulgence, at least that is one big purpouse of it.

Except with smoking, there were no other true alternatives. With this, people would probably learn to eat healthier foods.

[Missy Vixen]

33. Let's call this what it is, shall we?

>Except with smoking, there were no other true alternatives. With this, people would probably learn to eat healthier foods.<

I am so g-d sick and tired of seeing these threads on DU.

It's too bad that some of you are forced to live in a world with the fat. After all, we know that you don't want to work with us, live near us, talk to us at any time, and God forbid that some hapless fat person might attempt to be friendly or to show romantic interest. The truth is that you find us ugly, and you have no desire to even treat us with the most basic courtesy and humanity. We don't deserve it, right?

Stop insisting that you're concerned about "health" and about someone else's propensity for disease or increased life expectancy. This is all about attractiveness. What's more, it's about basic prejudice. If someone of another ethnic, sexual or religious background was treated the way the fat are treated daily, it would be considered outrageous.

Here are the facts: Dieting doesn't work. Fully 95% of those who lose more than 30 pounds regain the weight within five years. Most gain more. That number goes up to 100% after the five-year period. Why do you think that people are willing to check into a hospital and have part of their digestive system removed? How about those who take diet drugs that cause horrendous diseases? (Ask the widower in a local design store. His wife died at 32 this year from primary pulmonary hypertension as a result of taking Phen-Fen.) The fat are SO DESPERATE to stop being tormented by those who believe that being fat is a moral failing, that being fat renders one "untouchable" in this society, they'll do anything for the very idea that they can fit in. In other words, we and our bodies are so repugnant that we shouldn't be allowed in polite society, and there are people so obsessed with the idea that we're unable to feed ourselves properly that they'll do it for us!

This is nothing more than simple prejudice. It's the last socially acceptable and encouraged prejudice in the United States.

Julie

[Skittles]

34. SWEET JULIE

YOU SPEAK THE TRUTH. My own experience has been that I eat way, WAY more than all of my overweight friends. I've watched them struggle and it never fails, along comes someone who assumes they stuff their faces and watch TV all day. You are correct - it IS socially acceptable to abhor fat people and it is LOATHSOME.

[southerngirlwriter]

37. God bless you, Julie.

Thank you for speaking the truth.

[Bertha Venation]

42. Brava.

Well said, Julie.

[Indiana Democrat]

54. I don't have anything against the overweight...

...but it's a fact that American's are getting fatter and fatter. And I can only assume it's due to the advancement of technology. We don't have to work as hard as we used too. Now, we need to exercise more.

I mean if you take away infant deaths, we really haven't gained that much in life-expectancy over the last 100 years...Maybe 5 or 10 years? And I can only assume that's mainly due to medicines and hospitals.

My point?

Americans are a LOT healthier when they're working hard...They burn enough caleries in order to maintain a healthy weight. So if you don't work hard at your job or lifestyle, you need to make an effort to exercize.

[Nazgul35]

102. Interesting that you blame it on changing

technology instead of a changing diet...

Today, our food is so full of shit that most of us will probably be very well preserved well after we are dead....

For thousand of years we ate very simple diets that had simple carbohydrates, alot of raw vegetables, fruit was largely unavailable in the north....many consumed undercooked meat from domesticated animals....much milk and eggs,

and not a salad in sight....fruit was hard to come by....

Don't worry everyone, let them have their moment of superiority...there's nothing more fun than seeing these fools running around with face lifts, tummy tucks, hair pieces, girdles, etc....

so worried about their looks...it's kinda sad really....

[NashVegas]

123. Technology - Yes - and Lifestyle

In so many ways, the automated world has contributed to our thickening middles:

1. Remember the old, manual push-mowers? Great excercise, those. Now, we ride on our mowers.

2. Suburban sprawl. We used to walk down the block to the corner store for daily staples (milk, etc) and less often, drive to the larger grocers' for the large hauls.

2a. We used to walk or ride our bikes to school, now we're all bussed. Some of us were even able to walk to work.

3. Until the 1980s, it was rare for a teen to have their own car. This meant walking or riding your bike for social calls. Along those lines, less teens had part-time jobs, and jobs where they needed a car for transportation.

4. TV watching/computer gazing. Slows metabolism.

4a. The rise of viewing super-star spectator sports versus actively engaging in them - great social activity too, that. Playing basketball in the driveway uses more calories and tones more muscle than watching the Lakers on the tube.

5. Less homemade/scratch meals. Not only was our food less processed, but cooking it was also using energy in the preparation.

6. Bottom line: just about every nifty little time & physical energy-saving device ever invented has removed some amount of physical activity we devote to the day.

Yes, there are people with thyroid and other genetic factors, but in the larger picture, we're fatter because we've allowed ourselves to become smitten with technology, IMO.

[karlschneider]

58. There is a diet that works. Eat less. It's that simple.

:eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

63. Completely untrue assumption

Genetic predisposition and stress can cause people to hold onto their fat stores. Thyroid and other physical issues can make people obese.

I was thin my whole life until my thyroid went haywire a few years ago. I gained 50 lbs in two years while exercising and eating fairly well. I don't eat any processed food and I don't eat very much. They put me on medicine and I'm now close to my normal weight, thanks to Levoxyl and Atkins.

The lack of empathy on this thread is pretty horrifying. Not to mention the prejudice toward the obese which is perfectly acceptable.

[karlschneider]

70. Prejudice towards fat people is NOT acceptable. I never said such.

But if you don't want to be fat, don't eat so much. Jeezus, it's getting so a person can't even scribe a patently obvious fact without being labelled "racist", or "fatist".

How's your doughnut supply?

[scarlet_owl]

73. That is totally unacceptable.

I am large, and a very healthy eater. Saying that people are fat because they simply over eat isn't an "obvious fact". Walk a day in my well-worn shoes and you will see that I eat very well and go on regular hikes. I am active and I eat well all the time, so by your logic, I should be a size six. I am fat because of an imbalance in my body and the medication I am on, not because of gluttony. You need to watch the sweeping generalizations. Everyone is different.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

80. I don't eat doughnuts, Herr Schneider

Sieg f**in' heil!

On edit: never judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes. Or in your case, goosestepped.

[EV1Ltimm]

128. that's like telling a smoker...

"i know how you can quit smoking... stop smoking"

there's serious psychological implications to just "eating less".

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

75. Yeah we'll just "LOL" with you.

Your prejudices are SO funny!! Please, don't even think of apologizing for them! We wouldn't want you any other way :eyes:

[dawn]

90. And I'm repulsed by rude people!

Some people are repulsed by old people. You too will age. What will you say when people are repulsed by you?

Are you for f*cking real??

LOL!

Rude, insensitive jerks repulse me.

[Catherine Vincent]

94. Fine. We'll see how you react when someone is repulsed

by the sight of somethng shallow that shows on you. Someone may think you have a big nose, or a big face. How about big ears? Big eyes? Hands? Feet? Ugly hands or too many freckels or moles on your face. Unless you think you're perfect? I guarantee you there is something on you that someone finds offensive.

LOL at that.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

95. Just her personality, unfortunately

which is glaringly obvious on this thread.

[REP]

101. Yup, I Have to Admit It - I Hate the Stupid

Stupid people are offensive to everyone. The worst part is they often have no idea that they are stupid. They usually think they're cute and use "LOL" a lot. Kill them all.

[oldcoot]

36. No, it is meant to punish people for not conforming

Calling obesity a "vice" is implying that obese people are immoral. However, obese people are no more or less immoral than the rest of society. Many people think that they are superior to fat people because they have never had to struggle with their weight. They confuse good luck with discipline. The real issue with obesity is not the increased health costs but ridiculous stereotypes about fat people such as the idea that they don't have any self-control.

Yes, we have taxes on alcohol and cigarettes. However, an alcoholic who has stopped drinking is not taxed more than someone who never drinks. A smoker who has stopped smoking does not have to pay more taxes than someone who never started. All obese people would have to pay a tax on obesity regardless of their personal habits. Contrary to popular opinion, not all obese people sit on their butts downing bags of chips and refuse to exercise. For example, I know of a 300 pound man who has a black belt in karate and is karate instructor. If you did not see him wearing his black belt, you would assume that he was just lazy. Yet this tax would punish him as much as it would the person who really just stays home and eats chips all day. This tax might even discourage healthy eating habits. An obese person who is struggling to lose weight the old-fashioned way (diet and exercise) would still be forced to pay this tax because losing 5 to 10 pounds just wouldn't cut it. This tax would increase their frustration and might cause them to turn to dangerous diets thus increasing health costs.

Even if we got rid of obesity, we would still have rising health costs. The fact that Americans are living longer than ever before is also contributing to increased health costs. People who were fortunate enough to have perfect health when they were young start developing expensive health problems as they get older. Caring for people who can no longer care for themselves can also be very expensive. Yet I doubt that you would support taxing people more for living longer.

[dawn]

89. What about thin people who eat junk food?

Should they have to pay the tax, too!

What a useless tax! There has to be a better way to raise money. I'm a medium weight, size 8 woman, who exercises, but is not skinny. I eat healthy food, and junk food. I love candy. How lame, a candy tax!

What's next, a sex tax? hahahahaha!

[FlaGranny]

32. We might also have a healthier nation

if corporations would avoid putting hydrogenated fats into every item on the supermarket shelf. I spend half my time in the grocery reading labels to be sure I'm not buying something loaded with that junk.

[BiggJawn]

35. I'll take the subsidy.

More fresh seafood, more fresh veggies, less "junk" (like popcorn a coupla times a week) give me a 6-hour, instead of an 8-hour day so I can get some more pedal time in...

And MOST importantly, if you're gonna put me on 2 medications for my Diabetes and High Blood Pressure that cause "moderate" weight gain, TELL me, so we can work around that, instead of me gaining 4# a month while eating 2,000 calories a day and riding 1,500 of them off a week and wondering what I'm doing "wrong"...

But for jeebus' sake, don't TAX me! WHY? I'm already paying outrageous insurance bills as it is.

I'll tell you why they want to tax the FAT. Because, like smokers, fat people don't count. Never mind that the fast food industry would implode without us, just tax us, like you do those stupid smokers.

[creativelcro]

41. Absolutely agree.

[karlschneider]

57. "thyroid problem"? That's bullshit. There is no way to get obese other

than swallowing more calories than you can burn. Anything else is against the laws of physics anc chemistry. I don't believe in any sort of discrimination against fat people, but blaming it on anything other than overeating is just crap.

[dawn]

91. Really? Talk to one of my best friends. She'll tell you all about it.

I feel sorry for your lack of education on this subject. My friend is extremely ill. She eats salads and chicken breasts. Her body's immune system is turning against itself. Yes, she is obese. And one of the most beautiful human beings I have ever met.

[Missy Vixen]

96. Thyroid problem?

>I don't believe in any sort of discrimination against fat people, but blaming it on anything other than overeating is just crap.<

Really, Karlschneider? Are you an MD? I have a dead thyroid. It has caused unbelievable health problems, including the ability to gain weight faster than anyone I know. Doesn't matter how much or how long I exercise.

Your insistence that you don't discriminate against the fat, sir, is "just crap". It's hard for me to believe that you treat the fat with any kind of humanity whatsoever after reading your comments on this thread!

Let's be truthful. You don't struggle with your weight, so everyone who does is automatically shoveling down the doughnuts, right?

Wow. Happy Holidays to you, too.

Julie

[MadHound]

133. And you obviously have no clue as to what you are talking about

You wish to know about thyroid problems? Talk to my wife, the one who was an Olympic athlete, played Bball, golf, softball, ran track, still enjoys an active lifestyle, yet her thyroid fucked up. Without changing a thing, either her calorie intake or her excercise routine she gained fifty pounds within a couple of months, BANG! And you are saying that it is just due to overeating, wtf do you know? Gee, when she got her thyroid problem under control, poof, she shed the pounds. But now she is constantly on a low fat diet, since her thryoid problems and subsequent meds cause cholesterol problems.

Same with my mother. She had undiagnosed thyroid problems when I was a kid. She led an active lifestyle, was a registered, professional dietician. Do you think she overate? Didn't eat properly? You're full of crap if you think she did. When she got her thyroid problem diagnosed, guess what, her weight melted away.

A few other little factoids for you oh clueless one. It wasn't that long ago that a pleasantly plump woman was considered ideal. Don't believe me, go look at some paintings from the turn of the twentieth century and earlier. This whole Twiggy then fad is just that, a fad dreamed up by the Madison Av. folks. Nice to see that you're dumb enough to fall for it. And it is quite telling about your personality that you are so shallow, and have such a "blame the victim" mentality.

People can get fat for numerous reasons other than overeating/low activity, why don't you go do some medical research into various chemical imbalances that cause that. I would tell it to you, but I don't have literally all day to transcribe hundreds of volumes of medical literature onto DU(besides, I don't think Skinner would appreciate me taking up that kind of bandwidth). While you're at it, why not adjust your attitude concerning overweight people while you're at it. Discriminating against people simply because of their appearance is a narrowminded, and bigotted thing to do. Grow up, open your mind and get a clue.

[Lady Freedom]

67. It is not the goverments place to tell people how to live there lives!

If a person is overweight, so what! It is not for others to say what is healthy. Many who are "overwieght" is healthy with no problems. There are people that are the "perfict" wieght and is extreamly sick. This prejudice has to stop!!!!

[Cheswick2.0]

107. stupidity costs us more money than anything else

Maybe we should have an IQ tax?

[Frederic Bastiat]

22. I support taxing junk foods

They do it up here in Canada ;)

[karabekian]

25. no way

that law is total shit and yet another example of the pleasure police out to tell us how to live our lives. I can hardly believe that anyone would support such a law. I shudder at the thought of what is next if we go down this road...:thumbsdown:

[oldcoot]

30. Exactly

We should think about what the government will tax next if this became a law. While it may be fashionable now to view fat people as overindulgent, eventually more people are going to understand that it is not that simple. As others have pointed out, obesity is not always the result overeating and no exercise. Other factors, such as genetics, play a role. What is stopping the government from taxing people more if they have a genetic disposition for certain health problems (diabetes, breast cancer,etc,) if they can tax people simply for being obese?

[Liberal Classic]

29. The WAR ON FAT...

Jiggles forth!

[creativelcro]

38. Wow, I like that!

Where do I need to sign?

[classics]

43. More proof otherwise smart people become stupid.

When you give them a stick and tell them its someones 'fault' that the goverment wants to take more of thier money.

It doesnt hurt either that this will help re-enforce the fantasy that fat people are all born thin, and become perverted through the sins of sloth and gluttony.

Yea, and mentally handicapped people have the devil in them, and blacks suffer from negroidism. Can you imagine if they tried to pass a 'negroidism' tax to help 'cure' sickle-cell and hypertension?

It might still go over big in some parts of the south though.

[spindoctor]

44. Tax sex

Treatment of VD's costs the tax payer millions on a yearly basis.

In proper context, we need to make condoms deductible. I will get a lobby going on behalf of Trojan and Durex.

Crime is still a major contributor to physical injuries such as broken limps and gun shot wounds. Tax crime!!

The only activity that causes more injuries than sex and crime together is sports. Yearly millions of Americans suffer from sports-related injuries and illnesses. Sports can disable people. Sports can kill. We need to tax sports ASAP.

What philosophy dictates that it is allowed to tax activities or substances that are 'bad for you'? You cannot justify that in a proper argument. Not ever. Either something is allowed, and then it is just as allowed as other activities that have the same legal status, or something is not allowed, in which case it has the same illegal status. We simply cannot say that we "discourage" certain activities (i.e. smoking, drinking, eating) by taxing the shit out of people who feel they have to partake in them.

Blah.

[BiggJawn]

46. It's FUN to tax "Social Pariahs"..And PROFITABLE...

They increase the tax on cigarettes because they know that's "safe". "Gee, smoking is bad for you, and maybe if we raise the tax high enough, people will quit the filthy habit..." that's what they say publicly, but in private, it's "Jerk another 50 cents a pack out of those hillbillies. They'll pay it, they're ADDICTED, f'kryst's sake!"

Same mindset probably goes for the "Fat Tax". EVERYBODY hates fat people! they're disgusting! they're lazy! They can't stop eating! They SMELL! (yes I do, like lilacs. I like Yardley's) and since they can't stop eating fat-saturated crap, we'll rake in some bucks along with it.

Last time they raised the cigarette pack here, within 6 months they were crying the blues about budget shortfalls because the projected revenues from the increased tax didn't show up. Why? well, partly because some folks went on-line and started buying their smokes from the Onieda Nation, some started rolling their own (I did for a while) and some folks just plain QUIT, Like they were publicly supposed to do, but not privately.

"Costs to Society" and matters of public health have NOTHING to do with these taxes. They're all revenue-raising mechanisms. Nothing more.

I asked a State Rep why, since nobody could argue with drunk drivers being a greater hazard to the Public than smokers, why was there no increase in the booze tax? He told me, and I quote:
"The Beverage/Hospitality people have better lobbyists than the tobacco interests. We have 2 lobbyists from that industry for every Senator, compared to one tobacco lobbyist for the whole of the Legislature."

It'a ALL about the Ben Jammin's. Don't kid your self, second-hand smoke and having to 'pay" for my health problems have nothing to do with it.

Oh, and since you're all worried about paying for my health problems, how about coming across with some $$ so I can continue the Actos? Other than the weight loss issues, it's working pretty good for me.

[SoCalDem]

45. My best advice .. Let's just start minding our own business..

This is just another gem in the brilliant necklace our administration is making for us..

It's ok to discriminate against fat people because they are ..well "unpleasant" and they cost "US" money..

It's ok to discriminate against smokers because "they" have a disgusting (but 100% legal) habit..so it's ok to hate them because they cost "US" money...

It's ok to discriminate against handicapped kids by not funding their education, because they are "losers" anyway, and won't amount to anything...We don't want to "waste" our money...

It's ok to discriminate against women (still!) and pay them less, because if they were REAL women , they would just stay home and pop out a baby every 9 months, without dropping a single fresh-baked cookie or muffin..Paying them wages that "should" go to their husband is a waste of our money...

It's still ok to discriminate (openly) against brown skinned people, because "we all know they might be terrorists"

It's ok to discriminate against gay people, because "nice people don't do those things"..(even though MOST families have at least one gay person in it).. They get "icky" diseases that cost us our money...

It's _stillok to discriminate against black people, because they take jobs that rightfully belong to white men, and "everyone" knows that they do not "deserve" those jobs..It's "our" money...

It's ok to discriminate against undocumented workers, even though they work for almost nothing.. They might try to use "our" services and cost us money..

That pretty much covers it.. We have totally lost the cohesive nature that made us a unified country.. A few blowhards with megaphones have succeeded in pitting every "group" against every other group.. We are a nation suffering from mass paranoia.. Everyone is out to steal "our" money..We are greedy bastards who don't seem to care about anyone or anything.. except money and what crap we can buy with it..

We are the "Mikey States of America"...We Hate eveyone..even ourselves..:(

[philosophie_en_rose]

92. Right on!

I really appreciate your post. There are so many things going on in this thread.

1) I can't stand to look at fat people!

*I'm sorry that some people's poor virgin eyes can't stand looking at fat people, but personal lives should not be regulated by judgmental, mean-spirited gossips.

*What about people who don't mind being fat? My best friend is very, very fat and she likes it! She has a loving, wonderful husband (skinny me doesn't!). She has no health problems.

2) Fat people cost me money! Wah wah wah!

*Really? I disagree. Fat people spend a lot of money trying not to be fat. The diet industry is enormous and it's designed for people to fail and have to come back.

*As Southerngirlwriter speculated, if fat people really do die young and diseased, then whatever monetary consequences will even out.

*Freepers cost us money! Freepers support sending perfectly healthy people to die? Who really costs us money?

3) Fat American pigs! Europeans aren't fat!

Even accepting this argument, it would be heartless to say think that weight is the problem. It's society that is the problem. Look at the commercialism surrounding weight loss and dieting.

4) Why don't they just exercise?

Why don't poor people just get jobs? Why don't homosexuals just change their minds? Why don't people just give up their choices and let me decide how they live? :eyes:

[Indiana Democrat]

50. If we're going to tax cigarettes and alcohol...

...and call them "Sin Taxes", what's wrong with taxing food that's poor for one's health?

[creativelcro]

55. absolutely.

If you eat crap that is bad for you and you do so intentionally, then you are costing more to society than a person who spends the same amount of money or less eating better things. Especially in terms of health costs. So, it's good that you pay more of your share.

[oldcoot]

62. The post does not say how Krondrake would tax obesity

The original poster did not state how Morton Krondrake wanted to tax obesity. Would he recommend that doctors turn over the records of obese people to the government so the government can tax them? Obviously, there would be many ethical problems with that idea. A tax on junk food would be more ethical. Since fat people are not the only ones who buy junk food, this tax would not be discriminatory. It also would not be a tax on obesity.

Unfortunately, taxing unhealthy food would present another problem. Who determines what food is unhealthy and what criteria will be used to determine this fact? Obviously, we can expect the lobbyists for the various food industries to try to convince Congress that their foods are really healthy. Since we know that the lobbyists can't be trusted, should we trust the experts in the medical profession and diet industry? As those who have lived in diet hell know, experts tend to give conflicting information about what is or is not good for you. For example, some experts advocated eating meat while others advocate a vegetarian diet. The press contributes to this confusion by eagerly reporting new studies which state that the old studies were false.

[librechik]

56. 95% of all who lose weight gain it back

this is another one of those double binds the RWers like to trap us in. Women start to enter the workforce so they raise the cost of rent and food so women MUST work to have a family. Need to work? make it expensive and difficult to get decent daycare. Poor and need to eat? make sure the cheapest food leads to obesity; then tax the obese.

A desperate worker populace breeds a docile electorate.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

64. My Healthy Grocery List Vs. Fast Food

This list is from a local grocery chain called Shaw's, not some fancy-ass gourmet place.

Dozen Eggs $2.99 a dozen (Organic/Free-farmed $3.69)
Pot Roast $7.99/lb (cheap cut-nothing fancy)
Boneless Chix $5.49/lb
Center Cut Port Chops $5.99/lb (ON SALE!)
Cabot Butter $3.49 LB (for baking Christmas stuff)
Lettuce (mesclun greens): $7.98/lb
Broccoli: $1.99-2.49/lb
Celery $1.79/BUNCH
Asparagus: $3.99/lb
Spanish Onion: $0.99/lb
Leeks $2.49/lb
Bartlett Pears $1.39/lb (Sale)
MacIntosh Apples $1.79/LB
Lemons 2/$1
Half & Half (Pint, Organic): $1.99

My grocery bill has gone up about 25% since last year.

If I bought processed, crappy food at Walmart, it would be much cheaper to feed my household. McDonald's is also cheap. i don't buy the arguments above at all.

[Wapsie B]

66. Thin people

never die, right?

[creativelcro]

68. brilliant

[Bunny]

69. That's right!

And they NEVER develop costly diseases, either. And they're ALWAYS so pleasant to look at, too! I have NEVER seen an unattractive thin person. It's always those icky FAT people that are so unpleasant to look at! Never mind how they got fat, they're ugly, right? So why must you and I be exposed to them? They should just exercise harder.

Kinda like those homeless people. You know, the ones who COULD get a job, if only they wanted to? Never mind if they have an underlying mental illness, they chose to be homeless. So why should I accord them any amount of human digity? If they'd just not be mentally ill, I wouldn't have a problem with them. They should just be sane harder.

And you know what? So many of those OLD people are going to come down with some doggone disease or another, why don't we just start taxing them too? I mean, really, if they're going to willfully and flagrantly live in a Western society, with any number of toxins in the environment, then they just deserve what's coming to them, don't they? If they would just quit aging, they'd be so much more attractive and worthwhile.

Honestly, this place disgusts me more and more each day. :eyes:

[Lone_Wolf]

76. I'm sure it is a coincidence...

that this tax will disproportionately hit the poor. Ironically, people are much more likely to be obese if they are poor. Cheap foods that the poor are more likely to consume are loaded with fats and simple carbohydrates.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

77. But the intolerant folkkks above say it's CHEAPER to eat healthy

on what planet?

If you're trying to stretch your food stamps, it's cheaper to buy Mac & Cheese at 3/$1 than whole-wheat pasta ($2.49/lb), organic Skim milk ($3.29 1/2 gallon) and Schmancy cheese ($5+ per lb.). It is cheaper to buy processed food at Walmart or a Happy Meal at Mickey Dee's.

As an example, I listed some items on my grocery list. I live in an area with a high cost of living. A poor person would be hard-pressed to afford a healthy-eating lifestyle:


Dozen Eggs $2.99 a dozen (Organic/Free-farmed $3.69)
Pot Roast $7.99/lb (cheap cut-nothing fancy)
Boneless Chix $5.49/lb
Center Cut Port Chops $5.99/lb (ON SALE!)
Cabot Butter $3.49 LB (for baking Christmas stuff)
Lettuce (mesclun greens): $7.98/lb
Broccoli: $1.99-2.49/lb
Celery $1.79/BUNCH
Asparagus: $3.99/lb
Spanish Onion: $0.99/lb
Leeks $2.49/lb
Bartlett Pears $1.39/lb (Sale)
MacIntosh Apples $1.79/LB
Lemons 2/$1
Half & Half (Pint, Organic): $1.99

[Lone_Wolf]

81. Excellent point

Also don't forget in families were people are pressed for time (because of job demands). They often have to rely on food that is quick and easy to prepare. This same food is almost always loaded with calories.

What I find very disturbing is The Food Pyramid hoax, which is promoted by the USDA-The U.S. Department of Agriculture. Most people don't realize that the reason the Food Pyramid is pushed is for economic reasons instead of health reasons. The Food Pyramid was designed simply to make Americans buy more products made from wheat.

People should think about this: If the government was truly interested in our health, shouldn't they use a diet that was designed by a government agency that deals with human health instead of an agency that deals with agriculture?

[realityboy]

87. Americans are fat for a reason

Any European whos been across the pond will tell you that they notice the higher levels of obesity in the States. Ive only been once myself, and its not like i was collecting statistical data on the subject, but lets just say Ive ever heard anyone try to debunk it as a myth.

Im a Brit, and whilst we are not as bad as you yet, by comparison we are the fatties of Europe. Brits have traditionally had a pretty poor gastronomic reputation, and now with the rising levels of junk food consumption obesity is rising. And its no coincidence that culturally (and pretty much every other way) Britain is the most Americanised country in Europe.

People can harp on genetics all they want, but there seems to me no reason why Americans, genetically speaking, should have any greater propensity to fatness than Europeans. Over here genetic or medical reasons for obesity are almost unheard of in debates on the subject.

I think attitudes to "nanny stating" and telling people what to do is a part of the equation. Weight and health is clearly a combination of lifestyle, food consumption, education and awareness, working practices, and healthcare. The problem is in America, where there is much more antipathy to state regulation of peoples lives, things get out of hand. Anybody can see that its a paradoxical situation where a country simultaneously has the largest junk and processed food industries and the largest diet and slimming industries.

Nevertheless a tax is a stupid idea, not likely to put people off eating badly any more than it does smoking or drinking excessively, things which are also more common amongst poor people. The only thing which is going to reverse America's obesity problem is a combination of government action and regulation & a lifestyle change in the population.

Comparisons of fat prejudice with racial, sexist, disabled, homophobic, xenophobic or religious prejucide are unfounded for reasons which shouldnt need clarifying. Comparisons with poor people are unfounded because by definition, we cannot all be rich, in fact the capitalist economic system relies on some people being poor to function. But Im pretty sure, with a few exceptions, it is possible for everyone to be what we could reasonably deem a healthy weight.

[dawn]

93. What a joke!

What's next for them to tax?

I have the right to eat whatever I want. Screw their food taxes. They can cut taxes for the rich, but hey, us regular folk better pay up! Hahaha.

And no, food nazi's, I'm not fat! No, I'm not a size 2, but I don't want to be, either. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

[maxanne]

103. take the word

fat out of many of the truly offensive posts on this thread, and substitute "poor", "black", or "homosexual."

from Marianne's post:
<< All those who walk around with excess fat and excess weight are , imo, not very pleasant to look at and not representative of good health. Sorry, but that prejudice is, imo, justified.

Fat people breed fat children and fat people make up excuses for thier over indulgence and their addiction to food. IMO.>>

All those who walk around in poverty, who are homeless are, imo, not very pleasant to look at, and not representative of good hard work. Sorry, but that prejudice is, imo, justified.

Poor people breed poor children and poor people make up excuses for their laziness and their poverty. IMO

All those who walk around gay are, imo, not very pleasant to look at, and not representative of normal seuxality. Sorry, but that prejudice
is, imo, justified.

All those who walk around black are, imo, not very pleasant to look, and not representative of good ethnicity. Sorry, but that prejudice is, imo, justified.

If we take fat out of the equation and substitute another word, we are left with things we'd (hopefully) never dream of saying. The irrational anger toward the obese is amazing to me. That it is deemed okay by people here at DU to express this sort of intolerance is absolutely beyond the pale.

[DemBones DemBones]

106. A post everyone should read, maxanne -- thanks!

I'll just add that it always amazes me that people think anyone would CHOOSE to be fat.

WHY would anyone choose to be fat?

Do you think fat people don't know that being fat can be unhealthy?

Do you think fat people enjoy being unable to wear attractive clothes?

Do you think fat people haven't tried to get thin through diet and exercise?


Some people are obviously unable to think about obesity witout prejudice. I'd much rather be around fat people than prejudiced people.

[Nihil]

108. There are no simple answers because it is not a simple problem.

Maxanne's post (.103) made some excellent points and should be used
to take some of the "edge" off certain notes in this thread.

On the other hand, just because the vast majority of the "defenders"
on this thread appear to have made significant efforts not to be fat,
it doesn't follow that all such people have.

Comments on this thread show that most of the "overweight" people
here (and many others) are aware of reasons for obesity other than
greed. It affects them (or people they know) so they pay attention.

If you were to ask a thin person about a news item regarding obesity
then they will be more likely to recall the morons who sue McDonalds
than the reports of thyroid malfunction. Selective news reception.

I have a number of so-called "fat" friends, one of whom is probably
the kindest, most considerate person I have ever met. This lady has
a metabolism problem but compounds that by comfort eating. I know
the problems she suffers and wouldn't dream of pouring out the scorn
that some people here are displaying but to a stranger who happens to
see her with a cake or whatever, she is "just another fat women
feeding her face". They don't know (and probably wouldn't care) that
she manages a hospice for terminally-ill people (including children),
has to be hard-headed enough for the business side of things but still
supportive, honest and kind for the patients & their families, has to
help her own nursing staff when things get too much but is rarely able
to be seen as vulnerable, is overflowing with love and compassion for
everyone around but has no loving husband/partner at home for her.
They just see "a fat woman". If they're lucky, they'll not have the
misfortune that would lead them to see her real nature but there are
times when I would wish such misfortune upon them for the harsh way
they pass judgement on a stranger.

This issue really does need more careful and considerate discussion
but I doubt that the food industry will allow the government to set
any kind of truly beneficial rules in place (like restricting the
amount of crap the industry uses to substitute for nutrition).
There is simply too much money in it and by diverting a little into
the politicians' pockets, the industry will carry on profiting from
other people's misfortunes.

Sorry for rambling on, I just happened to think of my friend while
reading the above before setting off for my home and my family.
Here's wishing a peaceful season to you all.

Nihil

[Kathy in Cambridge]

109. Great Post Maxanne!

:hi:

[curse10]

110. great post

I'm appalled at some of the shit I've read in this thread!

It's disgusting.

[Beaker]

111. people aren't black or gay by choice...FAT people are.

and don't give me that bullshit about "metabolism"...if you get fat from the type of food you eat, your metabolism is telling you that you're eating the wrong kind of food.
It's that simple.
Americans eat wa-a-a-a-y too much dietary starch. It's not a natural part of a human diet, but it has always made up the biggest part of the "food pyramid" that we're given...breads, cakes, cookies, pasta, etc. etc. etc...
meat, fish, fruit, vegetables(raw is best)- these are the types of things that the human body is meant to eat.
refined sugar is another pure poison.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

112. You obviously didn't open your mind to some of the responses

in the thread. I agree with you about white flour and sugar-they are evil. but there is a whole industry built on wheat in this country and for a lot of poor people, their money goes farther on cheaply-produced starchy food than fresh fruits and veggies.

There are various other components to metabolism that you're ignoring. Some people have a genetic predisposition to fat. Women are more likely to be overweight because of estrogen.

It's not simply the food you put in your mouth. How do you explain a skinny person who sits on the couch and eats junk food but doesn't gain weight? It's heredity and metabolism.

[elmariachi]

113. repost from other thread

I keep hearing schools have been cutting out phys ed as part of their curriculum. That doesn't help. Schools sell fatty foods as a part of a diet. That doesn't help either.

Phys ed should be mandatory in schools, all the way through highschool.

There has to be a way to compel food distributors to offer healthier choices at better prices, and to change the market by offering healthy foods that are easy to obtain/prepare as fast foods and other unhealthy choices.

The hardest part of losing weight, for me, is to eat healthy. I'm a single guy. I'm too lazy to cook, my healthy meals consist of lean cuisine or other such frozen dinners. I've kept thinking time and time again that if a fast food company can offer a menu that is nearly full featured in healthy items that they'd make a killing. People WANT to eat healthy, its just too inconvenient.

I think telling people its perfectly normal to be fat is almost as ignorant as my statement about people shoveling big macs into their mouths. Of course there are people who are overweight because of glandular problems or medication or perhaps the few where genetics is a cause, but that should be a small portion of people- not the staggering number of overweight people we have in the United States.

Face it, people aren't eating right and overall we live a sedentary lifestly. That adds up in gaining weight. How can it be normal to be obese when you go to European or Asian countries and you hardly see as many overweight people as you do here? Its the American lifestyle that makes us huge, its not our genes. Its not natural.

There are always going to be people who weigh a little more than average, that is a given. What isn't normal is the amount of people we have in this country that are obese.

Obesity does take its toll on our health. How about instead of making a fat tax, we go ahead and raise insurance rates for obese people? Its ok to raise the rates of a younger driver, because they tend to be more at risk for an accident... so why not do the same for obese people?

[New Lefty]

114. Old Fat people

Stop and think about it. How many OLD FAT people do you see? Almost none. They never make it into their 70's, 80's and 90's. I'm sure there are some, but not too many.

[elmariachi]

115. is obesity a choice?

Here are some comments from another forum about obesity/fatness

From a guy who is overweight:

"You're god damn right. I sure as hell didn't choose to be fat, it is just the lifestyle that I lead makes me fat. Is it my fault? Of course it is."


From an obese guy:
"do not preach to me what you know nothing about

fat people have a choice

they can get off their ass, and do something about it

or go on as they've been doing

and dont tell me they dont know that, every time they pick up a soda or slice of overly greased pizza, they know. next time you're in a restaruant, look for a fat person eating. look into their eyes, you can tell they know exactly what they are doing, they choose to not care, or to ignore it. i know, as ive done that millions of times, it only gets worse over time

sure kids is slightly different, they arent as educated on what foods can do to you, but it doesnt take a fully grown teenage kid to realize "hey all these candy bars cant be exactly good for me...". you are right, parents contribute to it but dont make out like people dont know they have a choice, theres always a choice"

[Beaker]

116. heredity and metabolism...exactly.

not everyone's metabolism reacts the same way to the same foods- the skinny person who eats junk food but doesn't gain weight has a metabolism that can handle those foods. A person who eats the same foods and blows up like a balloon has a metabolism that can't handle those foods, and therefore shouldn't eat them. it really is that simple.
and cost is not the issue. I buy my produce from a produce store in a less affluent neighborhood, not the big chain store where I do the rest of my groceries. The produce might not be as "pretty", but it's a lot cheaper, and just as nutritious and tasty.
meanwhile, back at the big chain store, I often see people using food stamps to buy crap.
people are uneducated and above all lazy. It doesn't take much effort to find good nutritious food at good prices and prepare it, but it's even easier and faster to go to the drive thru at McDonald's.
people who are fat are fat by their own doing, plain and simple. they eat too much of the wrong foods, and it's of their own doing. I used to be fat- it was my fault. I took the initiative, did the research, and found the type of regular diet that works best for me and my metabolism.

[Frederic Bastiat]

117. I agree with you Beaker

Just take a look at shooping carts next time you're at the grocery store, the obese always seem to have theirs choke full of junk foods.

Another myth is that junk food is cheaper than healthy food, what kind of crap is that? Is water more expensive than pop? Carrots over candy bars? Raisin Bran over Fruit loops?

[NicoleM]

121. Do you ever look in skinny people's carts?

I bet you'd see a lot of crap there, too. Most of what grocery stores sell is crap.

[dawn]

124. Really?

I'm not fat and my cart is always well-stocked with junk food, along with the healthy stuff.

Mind your own damn business and keep your eyes out of my shopping cart!

[Frederic Bastiat]

125. You eat junk

You become junk.

[maxanne]

119. thanks for your wisdom

Beaker. If it's not a problem for YOU - it doesn't exist for anyone else.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

127. Perpetuating Bush I's Lies: You CAN Live Like a King on Food Stamps

Face it: If you're trying to stretch your food stamps, it's cheaper to buy Mac & Cheese at 3/$1 than whole-wheat pasta ($2.49/lb), organic Skim milk ($3.29 1/2 gallon) and Schmancy cheese ($5+ per lb.). It is cheaper to buy processed food at Walmart or a Happy Meal at Mickey Dee's.

As an example, I listed some items on my grocery list. Beaker says: "I buy my produce from a produce store in a less affluent neighborhood, not the big chain store where I do the rest of my groceries. The produce might not be as "pretty", but it's a lot cheaper, and just as nutritious and tasty."


Well aren't you lucky. Try living in an area with a high cost of living. A poor person would be hard-pressed to afford a healthy-eating lifestyle:


Dozen Eggs $2.99 a dozen (Organic/Free-farmed $3.69)
Pot Roast $7.99/lb (cheap cut-nothing fancy)
Boneless Chix $5.49/lb
Center Cut Port Chops $5.99/lb (ON SALE!)
Cabot Butter $3.49 LB (for baking Christmas stuff)
Lettuce (mesclun greens): $7.98/lb
Broccoli: $1.99-2.49/lb
Celery $1.79/BUNCH
Asparagus: $3.99/lb
Spanish Onion: $0.99/lb
Leeks $2.49/lb
Bartlett Pears $1.39/lb (Sale)
MacIntosh Apples $1.79/LB
Lemons 2/$1
Half & Half (Pint, Organic): $1.99

This is an example from the CHEAP grocery store where I live. I only shop for two people-thank God. I wonder how many times I'll have to post an example of what GOOD FOOD ACTUALLY COSTS before it sinks in.

[maxanne]

118. you didn't mention the poor

Beaker. I did, in the post you are responding to. Should we assume that you think people are poor by choice, too?

[Catherine Vincent]

120. Some people are fat by choice but not all, sir.

I remember in elementary school there was this student that was like 7 or 8 years old and he was very obese. The kids would stare at him all the time because it was odd to see. And most of us felt sorry for him because in our young little minds we knew something had to be wrong with that boy. He could hardly walk. Our teacher told us that he had a thyroid problem.

[elmariachi]

122. we've covered that

We've conceeded time and time again that there are people with actual concerns that stops them from maintaining a healthy weight.

Please realise that those people make up a very miniscule part of the amount of people who are obese.

I can understand your point of it coming from 'why should we tax people who can't help it?'; however, the government is starting to wake up to the very real situation we have in this country where our lifestyles are affecting our health. Loudly considering a fat tax just the beginning of the government taking an interest.

More than likely, a 'fat tax' would come to form as to what is being discussed in Britain: An extra cost on unhealthy foods. What constitutes unhealthy? That's a huge debate in itself, but we can mostly use common sense to decide. If unhealthy foods were taxed: 1. Consumers would be compelled to stray away from these indulgences and 2. The food industry would hopefully make a decision to make healthier choices. We have to be very diligent and cautious to make sure that these food companies can't fall through loopholes that get their obviously unhealthy options through the tax.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

126. Since those are the cheapest commodities and therefore the cheapest to eat

are people POOR by choice as well? You know...those "lucky duckies" that make a pot or beans to go with meals because they can do it for a buck??

[SOteric]

129. This thread is a classic example.

This thread has become a text book study in how to distract otherwise intelligent people from a larger issue.

While we're busy debating whether obese people are loathsome, or heroic, responsible for their own ills, victims of outright sabotage or the abrogation of someone else's responsibility, we miss the larger progressive issue.

To wit: I do not believe it is the least bit progressive to use the taxation system as punitive. Taxes ought to be a dues we pay to live in our society. If we wish to have good schools, excellent maintenance on our roadways, a working court system, defense appropriate to our needs and civil servants sufficient for our demand, we pay monies. It is not and never should be the government's business to tax us for behaviours based on someone's belief in their appropriateness.

On a related subject: despite an overwhelming amount of person's claims that obese people are a monetary burden on the rest of us, I can find no statistical evidence to back this up, and logic argues otherwise.

We do not pay for the food, the clothing, the hospital care (our government doesn't pay for that unless one is indigent, and even then, to a very limited degree), the extra seat on the airplane, the diet pills, the self-acceptance therapy, or even the burial costs of most overweight people. If anything, the overweight and the allergic are underwriting the costs of much drug research in the fields of cancer and AIDs. Pharmaceutical companies turn such a profit from people's misery they are well able to fund research into fields which might otherwise be closed to them.

The U.S. taxation system needs a dramatic overhaul. The places where we collect the least taxes for the highest demand on taxpayer-supported infrastructure is with regard to the wealthy and large corporations. The protracted trust/monopoly trials of Microsoft cost this country's taxpayer more than the average Joe going to traffic court once a year. And yet, Microsoft is paying a substantially lower ratio of tax to income than is the average Joe. That's what we need to be obsessing about; not whether obesity is a moral failing.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

130. What a great post!

As usual, you bring much-needed perspective to a no-win situation.

[EV1Ltimm]

131. the vanity and overall cruelty of some of the posters...

on this thread make me want to wretch over the toilet for untold hours in hopes of purging my body of the pure unadulterated horseshit that i've read.

i'm very dissappointed in some of you.

i'm a fat guy and i'm happy. if you think that's disgusting or you think i'm a weak-minded lazy slob, you can go to hell.

merry fucking christmas.

- timm

[Catherine Vincent]

134. I hear ya.

:kick: