Watching "the Real Saddam" on Discovery channel

[ParticipatoryDem]

If you have ever doubted that Saddam was truly evil then you should watch this. I have no problem with the soldier that was spit in the fact planting four on his forehead. Maybe we are not safer here in the US but there are many Iraqi citizens that must feel safer with him gone.

[Jacobin]

1. Hmm. Watch CNN much?

Yeah, he was and is a bad guy. One we put in power 35 years ago and sold WMD to and told to invade Iran to get back at them after they kidnapped a bunch of our countryment and held them for a year back in Jimmy Carter's administration.

The suggestion that Iraqis are much "safer" now is laughable. We have killed tens of thousands of them since we invaded that country. We are repressing them just as brutally if not more brutally than he did. We have destroyed their economy and have curfews each night. If they go out at night they are shot by our soldiers.

They are engaged in a fight to regain their country from the infidels.

This is a major fricking disaster which is getting worse and not better. The suggestion implicit in your post that it was in the best interests of America to invade Iraq is only applicable if you consider that we are successful in stealing their oil resources.

BTW, which "evil dictator" should we depose next? There are dozens just as bad if not worse than Saddam. Do you think the existence of oil in Iraq has anything to do with our newfound "dogooderism"??

Just asking.

[ParticipatoryDem]

6. There is no suggestion implicit in my post

I'd appreciate it if you attend your own house and keep your accusations about me out of mine.

[Jacobin]

8. Excuse me. May I quote you?

there are many Iraqi citizens that must feel safer with him gone

[TeeYiYi]

12. Don't forget the half a million Iraqi children . . .

. . . under the age of 5 that died as a direct result of sanctions.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/072100-03.htm

TYY

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Catshrink]

25. Afghanistan and Iraq

are far from stable. The only part of Afghanistan that is stable is Kabul, the rest is a mess. Iraq, well, we know about the quagmire there. Libya? The good colonel wanted to save his own butt.

Don't declare victory yet. Your boy still has a long way to go before he'll be the hero his handlers want him to be.

[Name removed]

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[Liberal Veteran]

33. There are infinite number of options between supporting and bombing...

...a country into the stone age.

I never did buy into the whole digital options we were given: If you don't support the war, you must support Saddam. Or, if you are not with us, you are against us.

That kind of thinking is pretty much par for the course the kind of simplistic sound bite type thinking that keeps getting us into messes around the world. Such thinking is indicative of those who lack the imagination to be good leaders.

[SharonAnn]

45. In my experience, it's pretty typical of substance abusers.

And I should know, I'm a recovering alcoholic (18 years). When I was actively drinking, all issues seemed black or white. It took more than a year of being sober for me to start seeing things in shades of gray and realizing that there were more "options between supporting and bombing".

So, when I see somebody who thinks in binary (you're either with us or against us") I wonder what their substance of choice is. Alcohol, drugs, prescription drugs, gambling, maybe even sex.

[cosmicdot]

34. how did you come to that conclusion?

[Dilettante68]

30. Try PBS

I protested the first Gulf War. What changed my mind was more than a decade of NPR and "Front Line"

Yes, we put him in power.......Didn't your parents ever say to you "Boy I brought you into this world, I'll take you out" Those who create have a special responsibility for their creations.

Where is the proof that tens of thousands have died in the war?.....Do you believe that todays reporters would not kill for a huge scoop like that? It's got Pulitzer written all over it. Do you believe reporters are under lock and key in Iraq. Are we actually killing tens of thousands, on purpose, just like Saddam did? By mistake is still an improvement over kill on purpose. And, he did do that. When asked about the mass graves Saddam reportedly replied that they were filled with criminals and hoodlums. Children were found in those graves. Amnesty International tells us that

Say what you want but we don't go around just killing folks. If I believed that I would move.

Just because there are other weenies in the world doesn't mean we should tolerate this weenie.......that we can do without......at relatively low cost (unlike china, one of the other weenies)..... In the middle of a region that could use a decent example of a republic.
If I see a kidnapper, rapist, murder and I've got a gun, and the cops won't come..........yeah, I'm gonna kill him.

And who is to decide who is a weenie and who isn't......Well, if you don't see a difference between the state that Saddam created and us you are truly blind.

And the oil. It is the cornerstone of the whole thing. Does it matter that what is ultimately a good thing (Saddam's forced removal)
started from self-interest? Did you know that the Marshal Plan created many new markets for corporate goods? Who cares Europe got rebuilt.

[Name removed]

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[KharmaTrain]

2. Why Can't You Detest Sadam And The War???

I doubt there are few here that doubt that Saddam was evil, vile, nasty, rude, crude, lewd and even tracked mud on the carpets. We've heard in ad-finitum of the Rape Rooms, Mass Graves, Gassings and so on. Yes, the guy is evil personified and should face his people and let them do with him as they see fit...not an American occupier.

Now, let's discuss why this country invaded another...and the REAL reasons for that invasion. It's time to disconnect Saddam, who never threatened this country and what is costing American the lives of our young men and women, billions of our tax dollars, our international prestige and our personal freedoms.

I'm tired of hearing how bad Saddam is...time to focus on the evils in our own house.

[ParticipatoryDem]

5. What in the hell makes you think I don't detest the war?

Please don't hijack my thread to focus on your pet issue of the "evils" in our own house. I also ask that you don't project any more incorrect assumptions about me without asking first.

[KharmaTrain]

10. You're Swallow Spin...

If you're still trying to be convince or convince that Saddam was an evil bastard, then you're playing right into the Rove machine. Why else would you post yet another string about proof of how evil Saddam is. Actually we will never know as most of the evidence has been burried over 30 plus years of his tyranny.

I'm not hijacking at all, dude...just that the focus should be on this illegal and immoral war...Saddam isn't the cause, he's been used as a straw man by this regime and the more the finger's pointed at Hussein, the less it is on Halliburton and the other vile war profiteers that made billions before and since this invasion.

The "evils in our house", my friend, only are spread when Repugnican spin is legitimized.

Cheers and Happy Holidays

[DUreader]

3. The Real Disvovery is on the 'off' channel

Sometimes the 'off' channel is reached by pressing a button that is

labelled 'power'.

Try it out.

The 'off' channel is commercial free and 100% viewer supported

[ParticipatoryDem]

7. No thanks

Feel free to do as you wish with your TV however.

[oxymoron]

26. please delete

[K-W]

4. If the US would keep its greasy mits out of the middle east

then the nations there could be allowed to modernize on their own. The middle east has had nothing but messy western intervention for so long they barely know which way is up now.

[primarycolored]

23. The Middles East has been a mess for centuries

The West had nothing to do with it. They are failed societies that will either change or continue to fail.

[cosmicdot]

35. I think oil played a big role in the geopolitics of the Middle East

the Big Oil companies come from the West

it's been a major influence on the haves and have nots there

[jonoboy]

9. all his henchmen who knowingly helped should be exposed

[Room101]

11. "Saddam was truly evil "

Shouldn’t this be in the Latest Breaking News forum? :think:

[economic justice]

13. Sorry, ParticipatoryDem

First of all, Welcome to DU.....

I feel I should apologize for your rude "welcome"...unfortunately, you will find that "mainstream" or moderate thought is not exactly welcome by many on the far left. But, there are MANY of us Democrats who consider ourselves from the "radical center" and have to put up with constant questioning as to whether we can "truly" be Democrats if we don't swallow all the conspiracy theories and/or believe that America is evil with a capitol "E"...

Your post seems innocent enough. One would EXPECT a lot of "That's the truth" or "Good riddance"...but no....unless you first bash the United States you will receive condemnation from those on the far left that attack without mercy on this board anything that isn't anti-American FIRST and THEN we're allowed to bash a dictator. There are many here at DU who believe that because Saddam is anti-American, anti-Bush, etc. that he somehow deserves .......something, I don't know what. You'll find many "Saddam is evil - BUT," posts here. It's too bad as a simple affirmation that Saddam was a despicable leader should suffice. But, to escape the far left's grief here --- you have to first add a little politically correct anti-American stuff first. Sad, but true. Many from the "radical center" join here and leave because they can't handle the politically correct BS and all the conspiracy theories, etc.

I will not go away (until they run me away with convincing mods that my posts questioning the me-tooism of the far left deserves bannng) and I think there is a lot here for Democrats of whatever stripe. It's harder on moderate voices, but you'll find that most of the time it's a lot of fun and there's good information here. You'll even grow fond of some of the far left who passionately promote their cause. I admire many of them. However, one should be able to post something as simple as you did without being cut to pieces. I am, truly, sorry. DU is better than this!

[Liberal Veteran]

15. Given the number of posts that have smeared DU as Saddam worshippers....

...is it any wonder that people here tend to look at yet another "Saddam is evil" post with suspicion? Do you have any idea the number of "Aren't you glad Saddam is gone?" posts that have been made?

Most of us, myself included, and my Gulf War Veteran boyfriend who were against the war were not saying that we believed Saddam was Santa Claus, just whether or not the reason for war was justified or that it necessary to break international law to attack a country that was not a threat to the United States.

And for standing up against the war, we have been painted as anti-American, blame America first, Saddam loving, terror supporting, flower children literally thousands of times in the days leading up to this ill-advised war and aftermath. That's what the majority of us have been defending ourselves against day in and day out.

And so when another person decides to yet again break the story that Saddam was a bad guy to a group of people who probably know more about the history of Iraq, the middle east, and Saddam's rule than the average joe on the street, it is met with sarcasm.

So don't apologize on my behalf. I am more than capable of speaking for myself and don't really require you or anyone else to speak for me.

[economic justice]

17. selective bashing

How many posts have been made saying Saddam is a bad guy? Many. So what? Do you castigate someone for the umpteenth posting of "The US and their meddling in the Middle East is the cause of terror"??? It seems to me that constant posting of conspiracy drivel that we've all heard a thousand times, and constant postings of the "same old same old" goes on on all the time. So, why the selective bashing? I'll tell you why - and we both know it - because the original post didn't include all the bashing of America that would have been received so well. Can't we be Democrats and still post that we saw the Discovery special on Saddam, etc. without being made to feel like a duck out of water? And some wonder about mainstream America casting an odd glance at some Democrats?

[Liberal Veteran]

27. So your major gripe is that DU is all about bashing America?

That's a bit sad if that is all you have managed to gather from the tens of thousands of posts in DU. What you call "bashing" used to be called constructive criticism until the AM radio got hijacked by rightwing idealogues telling us that to say anything that could be construed as negative about the policies of our government were just "anti-American bashings" by people who hate America.

And many of us have found refuge here because we got sick of being looked at askance in other forums because we had the audicity to wonder why for example no one lifted an eyebrow when Saddam was using chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war or the silliness of punishing France by renamed fried potatoes to "Freedom Fries", or whether "Shock and Awe" was necessary, and what the real motives were behind the war since obviously the ones we were given in the State of the Union last year turned out to be nothing more than a collection of half-truths, exaggerations, and lies.


"Too many people desire to suppress criticism simply because they think it will give some comfort to the enemy... if that comfort makes the enemy feel better for a few moments they are welcome to it.. because the maintenance of the right to criticism in the long run will do the country maintaining it a good deal more good than it will do the enemy." - Senator Robert A. Taft, after Pearl Harbor.

[deakonblues2k]

16. Here Here

Well said. Let us realize that many a wrong has been righted with the elimination of this evil dictator. Where we take our country, and subsequent foreign policy is up to us as a people and those we put in power.

Regardless of how far left you fly, you're at least flying the friendly skies of America.

[Room101]

18. economic justice - You are ignored for being anti-logic

It still tickles my duh bone when people don’t understand the fundamental difference between criticizing the state power as opposed to the country. They are two different animals. If a Canadian criticizes the PM of Canada would people call him anti- Canadian? No, they would laugh on the streets. It is a great accomplishment of indoctrination that has historically only been found in totalitarian societies that the state power is equated with the country.

[economic justice]

19. That's not true

Olympic athletes, for example. Do we say the "Russian skating team" or "The Russians." That's the context. Trying to twist it doesn't work. Many say that this or that policy is "Pro-Israel" or "Pro-Palestinian" and on and on and on. Sorry....I know the difference. But, I admit, good try at spin. Good Democrats come in ALL stripes - including those of us that agree with the vast majority of the American people.

[Drew the Independent]

36. You said it

You're exactly right. You would think, from a casual reading of this board, that there are more than a few anti-americans posting on a regular basis. I have never seen some so hell-bent on pushing their political views that their first line of defense or retort is to bash someone with a fierceness that would scare away children. Why is America evil? Would they rather be living in Iraq right now? Doubt it. How about Nazi Germany, if we hadn't stopped that evil dictator. Would they feel so cozy under Hitler? Nope. But, oh yeah, America is Evil.

Before you America bashers take another breath, please think for a second, remember that this is the only place IN THE WORLD where you can so blatantly bash your country without fear of persecution. Now, exhale that breath of FREEDOM that you just took, and see if you can't learn to love your country.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

37. Um, there are many countries where you can criticize your government

and people don't have to agree with the foreign policy of their government to love their country. That is a common belief of your ilk.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

38. Woops Dupe

[Skittles]

44. OH PLEASE

I lived in England for many years and freely bashed the queen and the prime minister. We are NOT the ONLY free place in the world. Stop listening to propaganda.

[Room101]

48. Drew the Independent- You are ignored for being anti-logic

From a fellow INDY;)

It still tickles my duh bone when people don’t understand the fundamental difference between criticizing the state power as opposed to the country. They are two different animals. If a Canadian criticizes the PM of Canada would people call him anti- Canadian? No, they would laugh on the streets. It is a great accomplishment of indoctrination that has historically only been found in totalitarian societies that the state power is equated with the country.

[DS1]

14. That show was laughable

Total propaganda

[0007]

28. Indeed, if coming from the whore networks

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[0007]

29. I bet junior is having second thoughts on that also, 'eh?

The Kurds did a fair job and the photo opp and story did little to boast junior's numbers.

[Name removed]

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[buycitgo]

39. so are the mods too busy censoring semi-bad words to notice

obvious looooooonatic moron disruptors in this thread?

and I'm not talking about those who are trying (albeit, unsuccessfully) to use some sort of twisted logic to support their uninformed conclusions....just the love it or leave it types that use tombstones in their prefs, among other obvious instigations

don't know why some of the messages were deleted here (too late to read them), but how bout the remaining completely asinine, jingoistic, chauvinistic posts here?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

40. They're popping up everywhere

Time to slay some orcs, Aragorn

[Liberal Veteran]

41. The "Aren't you glad Saddam is gone" threads are like magnets.

They tend to bring certain people out of their lurking status to tell us how horrible we are for criticising the war.

[buycitgo]

42. amen, citizen!

and ABB back to you.

my nieces axed me today who I was supporting among demcands, and I just said ABB, to their uncomprehending stares.

when I told them what it meant, one of them said, "Even Lieberman?" I said, 'why'd you have to bring HIM up?'

then, reluctantly said yes, even that *Lite.

[Skittles]

43. NO ONE EVER DOUBTED HE WAS AN EVIL SOB

the problem is BUSH INC PRETENDED HE HAD WMD. Understand? And if America is in the business of deposing dictators, there are plenty of other EVIL SOBs in this world, half of whom, like Saddam, WE CREATED.

What really bothers me is people who DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT OPPRESSION IN AMERICA are 0h-so-concerned about OPPRESSION IN IRAQ. Almost like they have - BLEEDING HEARTS.

[Name removed]

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[Cooley Hurd]

53. Did Bill Clinton or Al Gore launch an illegal pre-emptive war...

Of course not. See ya...

[Name removed]

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[durutti]

46. While he certainly is evil..

One should keep in mind that TV tends to skew towards sensationalism.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. Side note: How come you spell Ithaca "Ithica" in your profile?

are you traveling incognito? ;-)

[Catshrink]

49. Another one, Rose?

I kind of thought so earlier....

[Room101]

50. The BROWN SHIRTS are out in force in this thread

Desperately trying to distract people from the lies of their Fuer.

[Skittles]

51. don't you love it when they say WHY DON'T YOU JUST LEAVE

after they wax on about how great FREEDOM IN AMERICA is? Do they even begin to realize how f***ing RIDICULOUS they are, preaching to DEMOCRATS who TRULY UNDERSTAND what FREEDOM really MEANS ?

[rman]

56. that's old news

What makes you think anyone here ever had doubts about Saddam being evil?
Do you think the war is ok because some Iraqies feel safer now?
How safe do you think those Iraqies feel who lost family and/or limbs thanks to this war?