Religion On Display In National Parks

[OneBlueSky]

Christian Fundamentalist Influence on Park Service Decisions
“Faith-Based Parks” Decried

PEER (Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility)
December 22, 2003

http://www.peer.org/press/415.html

this is getting ridiculous . . . if Bush is re-selected, pretty soon the armed forces will be excluding everyone but Christians . . . to fight the infidels, don'tcha know . . .

Washington, DC — In a series of recent decisions, the National Park Service has approved the display of religious symbols and Bible verses, as well as the sale of creationist books giving a non-evolutionary explanation for the Grand Canyon and other natural wonders within national parks, according to documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). Also, under pressure from conservative groups, the Park Service has agreed to edit the videotape that has been shown at the Lincoln Memorial since 1995 to remove any image of gay and abortion rights demonstrations that occurred at the memorial.

(snip)

This fall, the Park Service also approved a creationist text, “Grand Canyon: A Different View” for sale in park bookstores and museums. The book by Tom Vail, claims that the Grand Canyon is really only a few thousand years old, developing on a biblical rather than an evolutionary time scale. At the same time, Park Service leadership has blocked publication of guidance for park rangers and other interpretative staff that labeled creationism as lacking any scientific basis.

Last month, the Park Service announced that it would alter an eight-minute video containing photos and footage of demonstrations and other events taking place at the Lincoln Memorial. Conservative groups have asked to cut out footage of gay rights, pro-choice and anti-Vietnam War demonstrations because it implies that “Lincoln would have supported homosexual and abortion ‘rights’ as well as feminism.” The Park Service has promised to develop a “more balanced” version that include rallies of the Christian group Promise Keepers and pro-Gulf War demonstrators though these events did not take place at the Memorial.

- more . . .

http://www.peer.org/press/415.html

[wanderingbear]

1. Yep..Christianity is now the official state Religion.

[SharonAnn]

22. Only a certain BRAND of Christianity is aproved.

All other brands are wrong, dontcha know?

[JaySherman]

2. Would this be such a bad thing?

"if Bush is re-selected, pretty soon the armed forces will be excluding everyone but Christians"

I say, let the fundie nutcases kill each off if they want. So many of these right-wingers talk a great war. Let's see how they handle the real deal.

[wanderingbear]

19. LOL Youve got a point.

If they woulnd come after us the first chance they got.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[moondust]

4. Really, WhatAreYouDoingHere?

How about a hint?

[TreasonousBastard]

5. What have we here?

I shall take the bait and let someone else hit the alert button.

As a sentient member of that dominant religion, I strenuously object to the Park Service taking a specifically dogmatic view of a degenerate version of that religion and making it national policy.

There is no such thing as "creation science" and there is no reason to have religious symbols on public lands.

The argument can be made that there are artistic and historical reasons for some religious symbolism, but that symbolism can never, under any circumstances, be understood to be state support of a particular religion.

Is that clear?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeahMira]

13. Part of an over-all campaign...

... to eliminate any information that might allow for a difference of opinion.

The fundies are censoring the school textbooks too. Apparently they want their children living in a bubble where the only ideas they are exposed to are the ones that their dogma preaches.

Maybe if they don't want their kids to hear about evolution they need to stay out of the national parks.

[rman]

14. well put. n/t

-

[wanderingbear]

20. Oh..I wonders what that button was for..

[mikehiggins]

8. Yo, What,are you doing here, the point is that the majority

of Christians do not beleive the Grand Canyon is 4000 years old. It is only a relatively small fundamentalist faction of Christianity that holds those unscientific and unrealistic views, and those are the voices being pandered to by the Bush administration. It most certainly does come under the prohibition against state sponsorship of religion AND it is bad science.

When people refer to the "theory of evolution" they are not using that word in the sense that it is simply someone's opinion. They mean that evolution is an idea that best explains all of the scientific evidence which man has discovered over centuries to explain the origins and development of species. To hold the writings of a religious text as being "true" to the exclusion of thought, and knowledge and science is an insult to rationality and to the very intelligence God has gifted mankind with.

To require taxpayers to pay money to underwrite the dissemination of such anti-intellectual and unscientific fiction can only be seen as an attempt to preach religious beleif in place of reality.

[alfredo]

11. Yes it does evangelize for a belief. Not all Christians are

creationists, just the ones who are goose stepping to Bush's drummer.

Our tax money is involved in the distribution of religious text, and that is wrong.

I wonder if they have room on their shelves for the Dama Pada. If they are going to teach one belief system, they should make room for Buddhism. How about the Deist belief, it was quite popular at the time of the writing of the Constitution. Jefferson and several others were Deist.

[dsidhe]

7. An update

If it helps any...
http://www.365gay.com/newscontent/122303parkUpdt.htm
"Tuesday, the Human Rights Campaign said it had received assurances that pictures of the Millennium March will be left in the tape, although, the reedited version may not contain all of the original footage."
Just thought an update might help. It's not a total victory, but it's not a total defeat, either, I suppose.
This is my first post, so if I messed it up, please explain what I'm doing wrong. :-)
D. Sidhe

[mikehiggins]

9. Allowing the government to suppress the truth for narrow

sectarian reasons is always a defeat. In the struggle between the individual and the oppressive power of the state, there is no such thing as a partial defeat.

When my dad was dying of cancer his health would deteriorate at times, and while the doctors could treat his condition with some degree of success, each setback and recovery left him at a poorer level of health until he finally expired.

Politically, "victories" like these are the equivalent of what happened to my dad. We compromise our political survival away, one "partial victory" at a time.

[dsidhe]

16. A partial victory isn't the *end* of the battle.

The point of the update was not to suggest that the battle was over. But in less than a day, the Human Rights Campaign got them to reconsider. The policies are still a defeat for non-fundamentalist-Christians and for pro-choicers and for people who feel that the National Parks should remain free of these kinds of displays. It's my hope and expectation that organizations that care about these things are also involved in trying to get the Parks Service to reconsider.
Credit, though, where credit's due. HRC managed what you may not consider a victory, but what they probably do, at least partially. I don't expect they're done fighting.
I was disgusted by the news, and my response was to write a couple of outraged letters to my congresspeople, which I'm sure had no impact whatsoever, but I'll keep trying. What are you doing? What are the atheists and secular humanists doing? NARAL and NOW? I'm sure they're working on it, and with the increased visibility of the issue, maybe they'll get more help. (I know I hadn't heard of these policies before.)
At the very least, HRC offers a ray of hope to these groups and to us as individuals.
Our parks are no place for this kind of agenda, *any* kind of agenda. They belong to us all. None of us should go there to be told we're less important to whoever or whatever created them, whether that's the government or a higher power.

[newyawker99]

45. Hi dsidhe!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Malva Zebrina]

10. the only way concerned people who care about this co;untry

and it's secular law and constitution are going to stop this pushy missionary activity on the part of the aggressive, but backward and ignorant when it comes to science, extremist Christians, is to insist that if one religion is allowed these activities, then ALL religions should also be permitted to to it. That is thje only way to challenge them--screaming about it, getting angry, etc. will not make a dent. They have too much money against the common person wanting to make a statement.

Other religions must insist that they too can pressure the gift shops to sell the Hindu version of creation, or the Buddhist method, or any other that would care to exercise that right--other renditions need to be right up there with the misguided, putrecine, literalist, extremist Christian push to make the country into it's theocracy.


This is not a Sam's or a Wal Mart where the private owners of the store reserve the right to determine what they want to sell, this is a publically owned , paid for by tax payers, place we are talking about here.

Other religions need to insist they be given equal shelf space--if they cannot do that, or if other Christian sects choose not to do that, they must accept to a certain degree, responsibility for the ersatz science and literalist interpretation of a two thousand year old and more book that was written, not for democratice purposes by any means,but for ancient tribes seeking to establish their place and a space in that territory. There is no democracy in that holy treatise-- that is obvious and that is why these types of Christians want to say it is a literal word of a god because no where in that holy book, is there any hint of the democracy, the grand experiment that the founders of this nation were wise eneough to foresee as the progressive movement forward necessary in order to keep up with fast moving times.

Christians like these have successfully intimidated other Christian sects and other religions with this type of bullying and have gotten stronger over the past ten years, aided by sudden conversions of an evil man like George Bush.

It is time, I think, for a great and loud voice to be heard from all the others who desrve equal time on the playing field, and fight them with their same weapon--no wishy washy submission to them in a timid interpretation of what Christianity "really" is -- they are used to that and have developed sccessful techniques to take advantage, actually, of the kinder, more gentle, but passive, Christian

Most of us have been taught from an early age to "respect" religion to the point where we hesitate to express our own thoughts about how extremist Christians are not "respecting" others by bullying them and are agressively trampling on our space at will and arrogantly declaring it is their right to do so because they are practicing their religion!

I have had enough of that, to tell the truth. I am not obliged to show "respect" to people of this stripe. It is not politically correct to say that this way of "practicing" one's religion is offensive.

[JesusNoRepublican]

12. Outstanding post, Marianne.

[newyawker99]

46. Hi JesusNoRepublican!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Cleita]

17. Hmm. Asking to put up statues of naked Greek gods might

get a rise out of them. I like your idea.

[Malva Zebrina]

23. well I don't know which god the greeks preferred

Maybe Bacchus or probably Dionysius



Michaelangelo was of course a genius. Here is David and this guy is part of the Judeo/Christian mythology.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:LYmAkwydXPEC:www.jefferyscottmitchell.com

Would this work of art be a sin in Ashcroft's eyes. LOL

[shanti]

26. asscrack would have a FIT!

n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

38. Sorry but this is just silly

It is time, I think, for a great and loud voice to be heard from all the others who desrve equal time on the playing field, and fight them with their same weapon--no wishy washy submission to them in a timid interpretation of what Christianity "really" is -- they are used to that and have developed successful techniques to take advantage, actually, of the kinder, more gentle, but passive, Christians

I have not had my religion co-opted as the popular liberal chatting points goes. My religion is just fine. Fundamentalists occupy a much smaller place in my brain than they do in yours, apparently.

While I am a liberal and a Christian I doubt that you would find me either gentle, kind or passive. I suggest you stop talking about things you do not understand. You are not helping the cause of separation of Church and state by this kind of argument. Believe it or not, even fundamentalists have the right to practice their religion as they see fit.

If you don't like what they are doing in the public or political arena then fight it. Don't pretend there should be some kind of "BATTLE OF THE CHRISTIANS". I belong to several organizations that advocate for separation of church/state. I belong because I put my money where my mouth is. Do you? Or do you save all your energy for ranting on message boards?

[Terwilliger]

15. the parks already have religion

nature is its own cathedral, and doesn't need to be STUNK UP by the dictates of men

[Cleita]

18. The national parks have been in the hands of the wrong

people for a long time. We need a conservation organization like the Sierra Club to start challenging them. The Sierra Club does do some of this but not enough. Anyone who has the time to become activists should. We need to start putting a stop to the rape of our last wilderness areas. Without them, America stands for nothing that is good.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oldcoot]

24. Playing Favorites

I remember visiting Yellowstone National Park and seeing a sign that stated "Take only a photograph and leave only a footprint." I suspect that similar signs appear in other national parks. By putting up these plaques, the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary has left more than a footprint. Whoever put up the cross is guilty of the same offense. Indeed, if anyone else tried to put up a plaque or statue in a national park, park staff would probably tell him/her to get lost or, in a worse case scenario, arrest him or her for vandalism. Why should the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary get special treatment?

While three plaques may not seem like a big deal, they do open another can of worms for the Park Service. Since the Park Service is a branch of the federal government, the Park Service cannot play religious favorites. If Park Service allows some groups to place religious symbols or plaques in national parks, then it cannot deny other religions the same privilege even if those religions are politically incorrect. For example, if the government allows the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary to place plaques on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon then the government must allow the Sisterhood of Satin to put plaques up. If the government refused the Sisterhood of Satin's request to put up their plaques then the government would be guilty of religious discrimination and religious discrimination is illegal.

Now I do not necessarily favor the removal of all religious symbols from the national parks. If the religious symbol has historical value, it should be allowed to stay. For example, I would not want to see a cross removed from an old Spanish mission. However, the cross in the Mojave National Park and the plaques in the Grand Canyon appear to have no such historical value, so they should go.

The United States has a long tradition of religious diversity and religious freedom. If we want to protect this tradition, we need to keep our secular institutions even if it would be "much simpler" not to worry about such things.

[Malva Zebrina]

27. excellent post

I enjoyed your take on it. I agree with most of it. I think there comes a time when it will take more than just passive, observation to protect all of us in this country from the invasion of the Christian nutcases into the dissolutioh of our traditional and constitutional separation of church and stae, who do seem to have taken over due to their accumulation of a whole lot of money gathered from their naive, and scared flock, in order to sell their god, or advertise their god and take over in their bullying , the direction this country takes. I suspect they no more believe this god than George Bush does. They have no real reflective, or contemplative abilities--they are merely latching on to a religion that is connected to corporatism and wealth and power and to them that is just what Jesus advocated . LOL

[oldcoot]

29. Thank you for your kind comments

When I visit that national parks, I do not go to see religious symbols or plaques. Instead, I am interested in enjoying the natural wonders as well as historical sites. I also do not think that Jesus would be impressed with a cross out in the Mojave desert for many reasons.

Like you, I am concerned about the growing threat to the constitutional separation of church and state. Considering all the faith-based crap that this administration insists on shoving down our throats, we might end up losing some of our cherished religious freedoms. Members of religious minorities should especially be concerned because they have the most to lose.

[Malva Zebrina]

31. good for you old coot and those who are religious do not realize how

much they are jepardizing their own religious freedoms by supporting Bush and extending their hands out for tax payer money. It just must be so tempting to them. Greed and desire outdoes reflection and contemplation.

Once a religion gets that tax payer money, they are, indeed, bought or bribed and subservient to the state and all of it's corruption re religion under whoever may decide to use it for their own goals---as Bush apparently is :shrug: and who really wants that I wonder. Some I guess, are willing to do so in order to get the money and that, my friend, is the crux of the matter. It is MONEY

Hey, you want religion?--then you had better support an evil , but "born again" very conviently converted, Christian such as Bush because he will grant you the most money from the coffers of all the citizens, Christian or not, in order to sell your god and your religion, and, apparently this god NEEDS money to survive!

He cannot do much without it--LOL and you will get all the money you need to keep up your church if you tell your flock to vote for evil persons such as the warmonger, killer, Bush. That Christain god loves killing children and babies for the heck of it, just to demonstrate he is powerful and can do so in order to get those goods he "covets"
:hi:

[Malva Zebrina]

25. certainly that is true

I often wonder, though, why it is necessary to advertise a religion and to place it in the same catagory as a McDonalds. Surely, it is, after all this time, above mere capitalism. Is it not?

I would think that if the god were an omniscient being, he would not need to avail himself of propagandist, captitalistic and corportism techniques or depend upon mere mortals to "sell" him. Surely he is capable of selling himself, right?


What do you think? Why is it necessary for a god to depend upon mere mortals, his own creation, to sell him and to kill others in order to sell himself? I mean does this god really need missionaries? And does this god really need the killing fields to kill off others who worship another , different god? If so, how come?

That simply does not make any sense at all to me

[karlschneider]

28. McDonald's, whatever else it may be, is not a public institution.

As I am required to support the national parks through taxation (to which I most certainly do not object), I do not accept any attempt to use them to proselytize any particular religion.

I don't think you are "playing devil's advocate", I think you are trying to do Jesus' work for him. If he's what the fundies say, he sure as shit doesn't need any help. And if he's just a long-dead imaginary dude, you're pissing into the wind.

What is that yellow mist I see?

[Cheswick2.0]

34. you sure have a way of making the "liberal" argument sound

like a huge turn off. Good job carrying water for the people who would like everyone to think we are the enemy.

[Jazzgirl]

44. The point is there should be no religious symbolism in any

state sponsored institution. Again, Christianity is the only symbol (creationism remember??) being put on display and the fact is it isn't right. It is not alright for the government to support any religious view. Its my tax dollars too! This is really pissing me off!

Jazzgirl :mad:

[The Undertaker]

30. Jesus Fucking Christ...

I used to have a lot of respect for the NPS, but now, they're only catering to the fucking republicans. This makes me sick. And the Grand Canyon is only a few thousand years old????? Gimme a break, you stupid RW fucks!

First, the White House, next, the American people, then, CBS, now, the NPS. Am I now going to have to boycott the NPS??? Seems like it.

This country surely is going straight to hell...

On edit: The Nazi Party has taken over this country, I see....:eyes: :grr:

[Malva Zebrina]

32. You know, sometimes pure gut reaction is most effective EOM

[Cheswick2.0]

35. and sometimes pure gut reaction is just dumb

n/t

[Blue_Chill]

37. cheers

:D

[Cheswick2.0]

39. Hi BC

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas.

[Blue_Chill]

42. I did thank you.

I am sitting in my brand new office chair I recieved to replace my poor misused kitchen chair in front of my desk. Very comfy :D

I hope yours was lovely as well.

[karlschneider]

33. Haven't you gotten the memo? The universe was created in 4004 bce

And all those inconvenient bits of evidence for billions of years were just placed there by a deity with a penchant for practical jokes...only to confuse us poor dopes.
:eyes:

[Blue_Chill]

40. You do know a Catholic thought up the big bang theory don't you?

So please don't pretend all followers of christ think everything is a test of faith.

[Blue_Chill]

36. I don't mind it at all

Maybe that's just me. But I would like more religious displays, including Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, and everything else that isn't offensive. Sorry but I hate the thought of a secular society, it's just too depressing for me to support.

But whatever to each his own. I can see merit in arguing the opposite. The only thing I don't support is christianity only, I like religious expression not the notion of a christian nation.

[Cleita]

41. Separation of church and state, contrary to your belief that

it results in a secular state, actually protects religion from the very thing that is happening when you have a certain religion become sanctioned by the state. Look at history. America was founded by people escaping religious persecution. This is why it is important to keep the government out of it. Then all religions can flourish without persecution. I know you are a Catholic, but those people pushing religion in public places are papal haters of the worst vicious type. They've got their foot in the door. Do you want them to get completely inside?

[Blue_Chill]

43. I see your point I really do

Perhaps I am a hopeless optimist in thinking we really can celebrate each others beliefs without trying to force stuff on each other. I dislike the idea of viewing celebrations as something that must be strictly limited to certain area.

Oh well, one day perhaps we will stop forcing beliefs on each other and stop being so easily offended.