What's your take on love of a country?

[Snow]

I've started reading Zinn's "Peoples History of the US" and he has some interesting thought on the origins of patriotism in the US. I've heard comments from people from elsewhere that the US demonstrates unusually ardent patriotism, although I don't think the US is alone in this.

Nations used to be much smaller (some still are). I live in a community that I like a lot, Altadena, which is part of a huge metro area but that nevertheless is its own self, so to speak. I suppose I feel responsibility for this community, keeping it pretty, making sure the kids get educated well, helping the poor people living here get by as well as we can, and so on. But it's not this large thing that we feel we have to love, or get a lump in our throats over. It's a place and a collection of people who try to do our best to keep things running well, and fix things when they get broken. So why should a state, or a country be any different? There are places in Altadena that I love - the library, the coffee shops on Lake, the hikes to the waterfalls in the San Gabriels, and likewise there are places - and people - in the US that I love. There's also history of Altadena, and the US, to take some interest in - maybe not pride (or shame) since I wasn't really involved. But I truly do not understand lump-in-the-throat sentimental patriotism.

However, when a nation is defined by a culture, especially an ancient culture, then that's a different kettle of fish. As many of you know, my wife's Korean, and there's considerable feeling about the culture, not so much about whatever the government might be. Korea has sentiment about places, such as Mt. Sorak or Diamond Mountain, or events, like the invention of the Korean alphabet or the printing press (200 years before Gutenberg, by the way). But this thing of patriotism, I'm still not sure. Certainly my wife feels a strong responsibility towards preservation and upkeep of her culture, in part a function of her social class but also simply because she's Korean. For most Korean, I think hometown and family/clan is more important than any feelings about the country per se. But the US culture is - what? Is that what we're trying to say with patriotism? Love our culture? If so, whose culture?

[salinen]

1. Interesting thoughts

Perhaps this form of "Patriotism" is the result of a not having a real culture. The sense of community you feel is human and clannish. That sense of community hardly exists anymore. History hasn't the same appeal for Americans as elsewhere.

[karlschneider]

2. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

There's nothing wrong with supporting one's own country, but why that particular dividing point? How is it any different, other than geopolitically, from professing allegiance to one's neighborhood, city, county, state or planet?

Or universe.

I've been to 52 countries and have friends in faraway places I value far more than some that live a hundred yards away. Ultimately, one has to (or ought to) reserve personal regard based on something other than location. I'm not even sure what, or if there is any agreement on, the meaning of 'patriotism.'

One fairly common, if idiotic, mantra is of course "my country, right or wrong." More than a few braindead morons not only will say that, they even believe it.

It's a complex riddle and bringing "culture" into it makes it all the more insipid. What the hell is "American culture"? I can't even begin to imagine.

[Snow]

6. That's why bringing culture into it doesn't work very well, here.

we're just too much of a mix. I'm not sure what you mean by insipid, unless you're referring to events like the "diversity" exercises I run across at work from time to time. Appreciation of each other's origins and so forth.

And I agree that 'country' is sort of an odd dividing point - why not my town? Odder still is the passion people apparently feel for the nation, but not for the town, or the continent, or the mountain ranges, whatever.

Koreans have a sense of belonging first to their family, then clan, then their hometown. And their culture is pretty unmixed, with a history of 5,000 years - so there's something to grab hold of there, so to speak. Even their geographic nation, however, has been many different shapes over the years, so I don't think they're really patriotic about the piece of land enclosed by political boundaries.

[rapier]

3. notes

WHen people, and especially politicians start talking about loving the NATION or having a strong NATION it's time to grab your wallet and watch your back. It is the anthesis of freedom, usually. There are all sorts of tricky sematics involved here but the NATION is not nor was not what America was supposed to be about and it sure wasn't what liberal democracy as brought to us thru the Enlightenment was supposed to be about.

The disconnect between 'small government' conservatives and rigthtests, and their embrace of The Nation is a striking thing.

This title may not seem relevant but this book is a MUST.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1879957558/qid=1072401644/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-0134607-5812950?v=glance&s=books

[Don_G]

4. I'm Not The One To Ask

My background is different than most here: Native American, French and English from from the 1600's, growing up and living in in "interesting" times.

The only thing that differs from generation-to-generation are the promises made from "time-to-time" and from the people that ask to the individuals that need help.

Only FDR made a difference and when time were rough did things make a difference when equality "had" to take place.

Or would you otherwise care to hear about my family'e experience with Harlan Sanders' reguarding Claudia back in the "30's?

[Snow]

5. Harlan Sanders and Claudia? And you're going to put that out there

and not share it? What's the deal? Is Claudia a town in Kentucky? Or a person?
I don't think your background is that unusual in the US or in this board - I suspect a lot of us come by our progressive notions out of similar roots.