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wanderingbear Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:48 PM
Original message
The Automation Revolution and the Future of Employment..
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 04:51 PM by wanderingbear
You worried about your job being outsourced to the E.U. While Meet Asimo. A modern day Robot servant. A Human Labor replacement unit.
That right. Robots.. They are now takeing more jobs then are being exported.. Automated factories are the future. Every time a busness upgrades in their technology Jobs are lost that will never return..
The factory worker will become whats that word..Oh ya..Obsolete..
Its already happening.

Welcome to the future..You made it this far.Now the robots are going to take your job.
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Cary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. So we can produce more and more goods and services
with fewer and fewer people.

Who's going to buy them?
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wanderingbear Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Ya well. You know conservitive capitolists..Their not that far sighted.
They will just see the robot as a way to save money on emploies..
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Go read Karl Marx
He mentioned this problem in the 1800s. His book was based on such improvements during and prior to 1800. The invention of the Railroad provided a whole new set of improvments, as did the invention of the Automobile. Electronics are just the latest method of such improvements.

In the past 150 years just when what Marx predicted would occur, we had new set of improvements (i.e. the railraods, than the car, than the Computer) but it seems we have finihsed off the last one (Electronics) and I do not see a new set of improvements that would further delay what Karl Marx wrote would happen.

Please note, read Marx NOT an interpetation from a Western Writer (who tend to be anti-marx). Also avoid Lenin and his Followers (they ignored Marx point that the Revolution must be OF THE PEOPLE not over the people).
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wanderingbear Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes,But none of those things can do what the robot can..
And those upgrades during the industrial Revolution did cost jobs.
But the Robot not only has the copacity to completely replace the human worker. It can do alot more than the human worker can alot cheeper..
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. This is not the worst thing that could happen.
Personally, I look forward to the new leisure state. But that's just me.
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wanderingbear Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Does that mean your independantly wealthy?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Costs will contain the problem, but will lead to more serious problems
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 06:09 PM by happyslug
Such machines still have to be designed, built, maintained and programmed. All of these have to be done by humans (through increase use of Automatic machines will reduce the human input, it will not completely replace it).

Remember a machine (even a robot) will only be purchased and installed if it makes money for the person using the machine. If the cost of the machine to program is extensive than it may still be easier to train a Human to do the job. Thus costs to design, build, install and program the equipment are the limiting factors in producing such robots.

Sooner or later you get to a point of diminishing returns. Over time, as you install more (and better) machines, the improvement in profit produced by such new machines goes down. Sooner or later you get to a point where the installation of a new machine reduces profit instead of increasing profit. This is the Zero Sum point. In the US the Railroads reached this point in 1912 (and have been in declined ever since). The Steel industry reached this point about 1917-1918(except for WWI, WWI and Korea), and has been in declined every since.

The Auto industry appears to have reached that goal in the US about 1970 (while the number of cars has increased since 1970, it appears to be more the product of increase population NOT increase auto usage among the general population).

After these goals were reached, it was cheaper NOT to buy new equipment (except to replace worn out equipment) than to upgrade.

The railroads are the easier to show why, the greatest profit margins were made early on, as the Railroad expanded and connected the ports with the rest of the Country. The Railroads than went to connect river towns, than along rivers than to areas off the rivers. Each expansion cost more than the previous expansion on a per mile basis, and produced less revenues. You have more trade between Boston and New York City than between Boston and the border of Maine and Quebec. The cost to build to Railroad to both places are about the same, but the Boston to New York City Railroad will produce way more revenue than the one to Northern Maine. The Boston to New York City Route gets built first and than Boston to Albany, than Boston to Mansfield, than Boston to Northern Maine. Each one costs about the same to build, but as you go from one to the next to the next the profit generated by the new Railroad goes down.

Sooner or later you cover the Country with Railroads so that if you build another one, the costs to build it exceeds the revenue you get from it. Thus it is never built (or if built quicky abandoned).

This happens in ALL INDUSTRIES. It just easier to show in the railroad industry. The same with Robots, they have improved, but there are programmed and maintenance headaches. Given their programming (and the need to have them to be programmable for different jobs) such robots are NOT cheap. Sooner or later you get to a point where buying a new one is just not profitable.

This is what Karl Marx wrote about, that sooner or later the diminishing returns on profits will lead to a stop in capital improvements. You can not go on improving productivity forever, it is just NOT possible.

My point as to the railroad, the Gasoline Automobile and the Computer in my prior posts was to show that as each of these industry reached that level you had the next great set of improvements in technology. As the railroads peaked, the Gasoline engine came in, as the Gasoline engine peaked, Electronics came in. The problem is today electronics are peaking (In the sense that they may be no more profit in replacing existing Robots/Computers with new Robots/Computers, not in the sense that we have reached the greatest possible speed in electronics) and I see nothing to cause a huge increase in productivity like incurred with the introduction of the Railroad, the Gasoline Engine and the Computer.

Without such a new technology, we are approaching the point that Marx stated a Society starts to fight itself. The upper classes no longer able to have the profit margins they had in the past and thus start to cheat on financial papers (i.e. Enron) and put pressure on people to work longer hours for less pay (i.e. lack of wage increases in the 1990s).

Sooner or later the pressure on workers lead to a revolt. The revolt is the result of people no longer able to afford to keep their families. One observation of Marx is that the revolt will only occur after the "Petit Bourgeois" drop into the Working class. You are seeing that now as programmers and engineers salaries have stop growing and are going down. Mid-level managers have complained of this for over 20 years, the process in continuing. The difference in pay between such highly educated experts (The 21st century Petit Bourgeois) and the average worker is dropping i.e. Programmers, engineers lower level managers are falling from the Upper Middle Class to the Working Class. Another observation of Marx is the Revolt will NOT occur as things go down hill, but as things bottoms out and starts to improve. People so not revolt while they are looking for the next piece of food for themselves or their families, but as things start to improve and thus they have time to think of what had occurred.

Now Marx said when that movement is complete a true Communist revolution will take place. Marx told his fellow Communists that at that point the Communists must be ready to lead the Revolt to the New Socialist paradise.

Here I disagree with Marx, I still see a revolt and the need to direct it, but I do not see such a revolt producing a New Socialist paradise. Now Marx himself says it would take 500 years to achieve Socialism so he and I may not be that far off. Furthermore Marx said the purpose of the Revolt was to remove the Control of Government and Society from the Control of the Upper Middle class. Only once that is done will society to able to advance to a Socialist paradise.

As I said I disagree with Marx on that point, but his observations as when revolution take place have been accurate in the past and I see no reason why such a revolution does not occur unless we get a new invention like the Gasoline Engine or the Computer (OR that The Government sees what is happening and tries to stop the drop in income among the working class).

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terryg11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. maybe we'll be one big welfare state
everyone stays home and collects their 300 a week or whatever and hopes to high heaven they don't get sick
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wanderingbear Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. More like a corperation state..
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 05:18 PM by wanderingbear
The rich get attended to..The poor get put out in the cold.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. My major problem with overseas labor is that it is practically slave labor
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 05:22 PM by w4rma
I have no problem whatsoever with robotic labor.

Also, overseas labor ships resources from America to other countries, instead of keeping those resources here.
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wanderingbear Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Not really..2 U.S. dollars translates into about $50 in their economy
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