TVNL's Person of the Year: the Anti War Protester!!!

[veracity]

What a great idea.....countering the TIME Magazine choice:

TVNL’S 2003 PERSON OF THE YEAR: - THE ANTI-WAR PROTESTER!!!

http://tvnewslies.org/html/2003_person_of_the_year.html

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[DS1]

31. Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 05:19 PM by jshep

Amazing technology, what say you?

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[Liberal Veteran]

6. Were you really losing sleep over Saddam Hussein?

He was contained and not a threat to us so why was it necessary to kill thousands of people, spend billions of taxpayer dollars, destroy our world reputation, and alienate many long standing allies to remove this non-threat?

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[Liberal Veteran]

14. No actually we weren't spending billions to contain him.

It cost the US approximately 20 million a year to contain Iraq. For 87 billion we could have contained Iraq for about 400 years.

What a bargain, huh?

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[drdigi420]

98. wrong AGAIN

there are other alternatives

did your crayon set only have 2 colors?

[nostamj]

10. feh!

no one who was against the war was FOR saddam

that is a level of pathetic lameness only the extreme right stoops to when they have no other argument.

what do you want on your tombstone?

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[Rainbowreflect]

24. Now we have dead children, dead troops, and terrorists in power.

So much better, NOT!

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[drdigi420]

91. It must be nice

to see the world in black or white, this or that, with us or agin' us terms. I guess that's what they mean when they say 'ignorance is bliss'

AMERICA is worse off with saddam out of power than in. You don't have to be a saddam supporter (like rumsfeld, bush, and reagan) to see that.

Your biggest problem is you seem to be unable to see that there was more than one alternative to the illegal invasion.

Inspections were working, and if let run their course, would have resulted in more aid to the Iraqi people. Killing someone to keep them from starving to death is pretty silly dont you think?

Containment was working and would have brought about a regime change in Iraq without US involvement. Assisting the rebels in 'Kurdistan' would have been cheaper, easier, and would have pissed off less of the world.

Having BUSH in power is more dangerous for the entire world than having saddam in power. Bush has verified weapons of mass destruction and is the (mis)leader of the only country to EVER use nuclear weapons against another.

Still having trouble figuring out that there are more than two sides to a story?

Still can't understand that there are more than 2 choices?

Enjoy your bliss.

[davidinalameda]

53. message coming up saying server not found

so it doesn't work

[K8-EEE]

Who's To Blame For Saddam's Power...IT'S NOT THE PROTESTORS!

It's NOT the war protestors but those who supported him during his atrocities and continued to support him until it became more profitable to take him down -- Cheney, Rumsfeld, BushDaddy, etc.

I am a war protestor and I have never supported Saddam Hussein -- unlike the above-mentioned Dictator Buds. They are like the deviant fire fighters who deliberately set fires so they can put them out.

Currently supporting other even MORE evil regimes (Uzbekistan etc) WHEN WILL IT END?

SADDAM COULD NEVER HAVE HAD THIS POWER OVER THE IRAQIS WITHOUT FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS SUPPORTING HIM.

[K8-EEE]

104. This Is Great!!

It's horrible the way the corporate media continues to glorify this war, sheesh! OK Saddam is gone, they are "liberated" and still nothing but death and destruction over there. All those service people dying during the holy week, it's just horrible.

[burrowowl]

2. Good!

Next year I hope there is someone who brings Peace and is nominated!

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[Liberal Veteran]

7. Have you enlisted yet?

So you can make the world a better place?

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[Liberal Veteran]

18. So when is your noble compassion going to work it's way to the Congo...

and the estimated 3 million who have died in the last few years due to fighting there?

Your compassion for humanity seems highly selective.

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[oldcoot]

87. Do you support sending troops to the Congo?

Believe it or not, Saddam Hussein is not the only dictator in the world and Iraq was not the only nation plagued with human rights violations or starvation. Since the only two solutions you seem to recognize are sanctions or war, do you favor invading all nations that have a dictator? Do you support sending troops to nations torn by civil war? If you are going to argue that it was necessary to invade Iraq because of human rights violations and to "save the children," then you should most definitely support sending troops to the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

[AWD]

57. Ummmm......

If you were there in 1990, then how could you have seen the bodies from 12 years of sanctions?

1990 was 13 years ago.

[Liberal Veteran]

63. Nice catch AWD.

LOL.

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[Liberal Veteran]

77. One wonders how you could have been doing this....

...and yet fail to note those within the anti-war movement who also called for lifting the sanctions and condemned the human toll of said sanctions on the civilians.

I guess it is true there are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

You are very quick to come and point fingers and baseless accusations at this internet community.

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[Liberal Veteran]

83. I looked them up because you asked me for links as proof!!

Now you are upset because I rose to your silly little challenge?

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[Blaze Diem]

13. Jshep...Osama was and STILL is our greatest threat..Not Saddam

But, we know it was far more "shocking and awing" to stomp on some little fu*k like Saddam, who had little to fight back with. Big bully Bush needed to make a big impression as the new kid in the playground..of course he went after the weaker of the two. Besides, Osama's family just happens to be friends and business partners with George's, so he surely wasn't going to touch that Bin Laden kid.

Congrats on the TVNL person of the year...This Occupation through military force should never have happened..
Blaze

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[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. Most of us were against the sanctions

You're right, sort of. The sanctions were murderous, and only strenghtened Hussein. Taking out Hussein with UN authorization and assistance would have been okay with me.

Instead, Bush made sure that could never happen, so he could have a unilateral war. You are pretending there was two choices - sanctions or unilateral war. That's not true of course, but I can see why you would want to pretend that it was.

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[Liberal Veteran]

27. There were only 2 choices if you lack imagination, that is...

There are literally a million options between invade and sanctions.

Of course you conveniently ignore the reasons we were given for this war. The reasons were that Saddam Hussein represented such a huge threat to the American people and possessed just tons and tons of WMD that could be used against us at any moment that we had no choice to invade. I don't like being led to war for a lie, much less an entire pack of lies.

This war was totally unecessary.

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[Liberal Veteran]

34. Actually, yes we should have ended sanctions....

But the US was not going to have that. We needed the little boogieman of our own creation. The US made mistake after mistake with Iraq and compounded those mistake when we decided that we would just implement yet another regime change.

And don't believe for an instant that things will necessarily be better.

In the last century we have used our military 18 times to implement regime change and out of those 18 only 5 have resulted in a democracy. That's a success rate of under 30 percent.

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[Liberal Veteran]

42. You act as though we wield no power within the UN.

Which is patently untrue, considering that France and Russia both proposed alternatives several times over the last decade with the US rejected out of hand, preferring to maintain the status quo.

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[WhoCountsTheVotes]

28. Of course, you are ignoring the facts

You're ignoring the fact that PNAC was trying to start a unilateral war, purposefully without UN authorization. Why would you ignore that?

You have to ignore the fact that Bush did everything possible to make sure the Security Council would NOT act, by demanding full US control and privatization of resources, etc. Has everyone forgotten about the two years of the Bush administration before the war? The GOP was begging for UN assistance? Your arguments may work on the uneducated, but most of us here have been paying attention.

Besides, the war wasn't about freeing the Iraqi people, it was about the Weapons of Mass Destruction. Oh wait, I mean the WMD programs. Oops, I mean keeping Iraqi's neighbors safe. Oops, I mean the war on terrorism.

Sorry, I'm getting confused - what was the reason again?

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[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. Yes, and that's why we marched against the sanctions

So what were you doing to stop the sanctions?

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[Liberal Veteran]

58. Start right here at DU with an LBN article I just quoted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forum_archive_html/DCForumID61/1510.html

or here from a 2000 article:

http://www.npym.org/iraq/sanctions.html

or here in 2001:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1184005.stm

or here:

NEW YORK – Members of No Blood For Oil! successfully carried out an occupation of the General Assembly chamber at the United Nations this morning. At the same time, other members of the group rallied and staged a sit-in in front of the U.S. Mission to the U.N. a short distance away, where negotiators from China, the U.K., and France were said to be hammering out details with their American counterparts for a proposal sanctioning U.S. action against Iraq.

The activists were there to make the following demands:

* Immediate lifting of economic sanctions against Iraq.
* No U.N. permission at any time for an invasion of Iraq.
* Explicit U.N. condemnation of the new U.S. policy of anticipatory self-defense.


So care to apologize yet?

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[Liberal Veteran]

72. Oh, please just admit your ignorance and apologize.

That took all of 5 minutes of searching on Google to disprove your statement and I quote:

"Not a single person who opposed this war advocated the lifting of sanctions. NOT ONE."


I just blew your little theory to hell and back and still you cling to your ignorant claims about those of us who opposed the war.

Perhaps next time you would do well to do a little research to back up your assumptions before you display your ignorance for all to see.

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[Liberal Veteran]

79. Perhaps because the focus was trying to prevent a war at the time....

...cause God forbid that people at a protest march be on message.

And I only looked them up because you were too damned lazy to look for yourself and you wouldn't just accept my word for it when I told you as much and demanded links and proof.

So now you think because I accepted and passed your silly little challenge with fly colors and displayed your ignorance for all to see, you think to try to shame me for actually doing what you asked?

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[WhoCountsTheVotes]

65. I DID

Years ago, under Clinton. What did you do?

The Peace movement and the left have been trying to get the sanctions lifted since day one. Anyone who denies that is either ignorant of the facts or just lying.

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[Liberal Veteran]

74. And what were you doing in the 90's about it?

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, `Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye;' and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

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[Liberal Veteran]

82. Yes, you are just a paragon of virtue....

...who conveniently ignored the fact that many people including many of us that are part of this web site have been involved in making the world a better place.

I guess volunteering my time and money for local causes such as hunger and domestic abuse and HIV/AIDS isn't quite as grand as your resume, but from where I stand, it takes a lot of arrogance to come here and pretend that good people who stood against something they believed was wrong and bad policy was not worthy of your respect. It takes even more arrogance to assume that the other 30000+ members of this board haven't done anything to try to make the world a better place or addressed a particular issue that is close to heart.

I find it hard to believe that anyone who displays that level of arrogance would be involved in helping others. Arrogance and compassion generally do not go hand in hand.

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[Liberal Veteran]

88. Why do assume containment=economic sanctions?

I didn't say that.

It was well known that if Saddam had moved against another country after what happened in Kuwait, the world would have descended on him like a plague of locusts.

You jump to a lot of conclusions.

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[drdigi420]

99. you are so wrong

there were a multitude of options

i dont know how anyone can be so dense

but, this is how the neocons argue, straw men instead of logic

[proud patriot]

8. YAY!!!!!!!!!

Thank You T.V. News Lies

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[Liberal Veteran]

36. So bombing the shit out of Iraq was the only other option?

Is that what you are proposing?

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[0rganism]

41. Your argument is that anti-war equals pro-sanctions regime?

That's kind of a monumental leap, IMHO. Consider that groups such as Global Exchange have been seeking alternatives to both war and sanctions for the last decade, before you lump us all into your little support-civilian-death box.

The continued US-led occupation, even after the shattering of the Ba'athist regime, belies your humanitarian rationale.

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[0rganism]

50. You can probably find some of the '90s material in other web searches

Medea Benjamin and the Global Exchange organization has been in public vocal opposition to the deadly embargo for quite some time. You may want to read this article:
http://www.merip.org/iraq_backgrounder_102202/iraq_background2_merip.pdf

It explains quite clearly why the sanctions were harmful to exactly the wrong people.

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[0rganism]

56. Sorry, what exactly in the first paragraph does this?

"After both houses of Congress granted the White House authorization for a US-led military strike to overthrow Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq, George W. Bush claimed that “America has spoken with one voice” about the “mortal threat” posed by Iraq’s presumed programs for weapons of mass destruction. But much of the US public remained unconvinced that Iraq really imperiled the world’s sole superpower. The UN Security Council resolution passed on November 8, 2002 reflected international consensus that outstanding questions about Iraq’s armaments should be answered through assertive inspections, not war. Bush has failed to prove the existence of an urgent threat coming from Iraq. His administration’s push for war begs for alternative explanations."

That is the first paragraph. Please select the portions that absolve the world community and seeks to blame one person.

Your distortions are quite amusing, really. Do you think the no-fly-zone enforcement was a UN instigation, as well?

[0rganism]

51. You shouldn't pretend to have a humanitarian answer, then

Which is more sensible and humanitarian:

1. Leave Hussein in power, but gradually lift the sanctions that helped him maintain totalitarian control over an impoverished population

2. Unilaterally invade to remove Hussein, throwing the country into chaos and opening up the strong possibility of take-over by Islamic radicals

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[0rganism]

60. How many of those 60 nations are supporting us for bribes?

> You obviously have no idea about the history of Iraq if you think
> that Sanctions were helping Saddam maintain control.

Please elaborate. Either the sanctions weakened or strengthened Saddam's control, or they had no effect. What do you think?

My opinion is, they gave Saddam a perpetual enemy presence to use as propaganda leverage. As the article I linked for you says,

"For its part the Iraqi government, while providing a basic food ration, placed military and security concerns over civilian needs, especially when making decisions on reconstruction."

This is especially easy to justify when your country is bombed on a weekly basis.

[Liberal Veteran]

62. Better yet, how many "supporters" put troops on the ground?

That would be a better question.

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[drdigi420]

96. would your cure for a dog that wanders off...

...be to chop off its legs?

[stevedeshazer]

38. Stop putting words in my mouth

It is not an "either / or " proposition. This is not black and white. It's ridiculous to assert that because I exercised my rights under the First Amendment of our Constitution that

And yes, if you support the invasion and occupation of another nation, you absolutely, positively do support George W. Bush, for this is the singular thing he stands for, as long as you're painting braod strokes of black and white.

Who is next? What country do you want to subdue now? Cuba? Syria? North Korea? Iran? Somalia? Saudi Arabia?

Forget that. I just have one question. Just one. Only five words.

Why did we invade Iraq?

Take as long as you like to answer.

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[Robbien]

55. Okay, I'll straight out ask

Are you a supporter of what Bush is doing?

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[Liberal Veteran]

59. I'm asking for honesty from YOU right now.

I just gave you several examples of protestors before the war (even as far back as a couple of years ago) asking to lift sanctions.

You still want to claim that "NOT ONE!" protester said we should lift sanctions?

[0rganism]

61. How do you know Stevie D wasn't out protesting in the '90s?

Many of us did just that, Democrat, Indy and Green alike. This isn't a bush-only policy disaster, although bush has exacerbated it beyond my wildest nightmares.

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[Robbien]

66. Please edit your post,

You could get into trouble. Notice that a good member here, poster number 3 above, got canned because they called this right wing viewing poster a freeper. If you have concerns, please use the alert button. I did.

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[Robbien]

71. Again, asking you straight out

Do you support Bush and his policies?

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[drdigi420]

94. your 'humanity' is laughable

you support bombing children to save them from saddam's oppression.

you support a 'cure' that is worse than the disease

a gun shot to the head will cure the worst headache, but most people would prefer the headache

do you see your loss of logic yet?

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[stevedeshazer]

105. You didn't answer the question

Why did we invade Iraq?

You can't answer it.

[citizen snips]

19. This is great.

This will fire up the anti war protesters:-)

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[thebigidea]

90. well, maybe you'll bow down, anyway

"- Those who stood outside Federal buildings and proved their intellectual superiority by puking and defecating on the sidewalks."

Sure, I can see ho- uh, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah?

Puking and defecating on the sidewalks?

Personally, I salute:

- Those that made their protest signs out of human flesh.

- Those that puked on the sidewalks, then got confused and ate the puke. Lets not even get into those that ate the other stuff, those people are out and out heroes.

- Those that played a lot of TETRIS.

- Those that were about to rock at any point in time.

I'd go on, but I'm still cracking up at the "puking and defecating" thing.

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[Liberal Veteran]

102. Well given that over 12 million people marched.....

...against the war, it's kinda silly to claim that the majority were involved in some the things you claimed.

There are lunatic fringes to every group that does political protests.

We should celebrate that and not bash the entire movement for the actions of a very few.

[thebigidea]

103. oh, didn't you get the memo?

DU is a hotbed of out and out puking defecators.

We love it! Try to do it every day.

If you have a problem, you should take it up elsewhere.

[stevedeshazer]

107. Get real

Of course it happened. People puke and defecate every day, okay? I did both myself. Today. I'll bet you did at least one. If not, take a laxative.

Now, if you wish to imply, as I believe that you do, that people who demonstrate or otherwise oppose the unilateral invasion of other countries are to be marginalized, go ahead. Just answer this one question. It's only five words. You may use as many as you need to respond:

Why did we invade Iraq?

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[stevedeshazer]

108. Please, just answer this simple question

Why did we invade Iraq?

[veracity]

109. Why?????

Because the PNAC plans included an invasion of Iraq as a major step in the military and economic domination of the Middle East. Simple as that. The invasion was a 'done deal' according to Condy Rice on September 12th - when Perle got the "new Pearl Harbor" PNAC needed to implement the plan. It's all there. On their own web page. Sigh.

[stevedeshazer]

110. I wasn't asking you

I was asking one of the previous posters who insisted on defending the US-led invasion of Iraq. Most of the relevant posts have now been removed.

You and I are in agreement about PNAC et cetera.

[veracity]

111. Oops...

Sorry to have interfered. You know that there would have been some mantra inspired answer about defending our freedom....
Why were the other posts deleted? I don't know the policy...could you clarify?

[Iverson]

112. now that's patriotism!

What a fine idea that was!

[veracity]

113. Keep the GOP convention on your calendar!

The Peace Movement has blended into the background, in the light of all that is going on. There are still protests going on and being organized...but the MAJOR one that we all have to support will take place next August - when the GOP convention comes to NYC to nominate Idiot Son. The nerve of capitalizing on the 9/11 disaster must be countered by the largest anti Bush demonstration in history. The plans are being made now...by MoveOn and the other major organizers of the peace movement. Permits have been issued even now....and this will be an historic moment. Please arrange to come. It will have a devastating effect on the GOP illusion of acceptance by the nation.

[goforit]

114. War mongers can't admit wrong while Bush is running away from Iraq.

OUCH!!!!

This is not a pretty sight.

I am excited that those protestors are being recognized!!!!!
They put their lives, time and money on the line.

[veracity]

116. Lots of recognition

The tribute is being picked up and linked on dozens of prominent sites. Peter Werbe has it on his front page....Buzzflash and What Really Happened featured the choice....as did many others. We cannot forget how millions united and were ignored. Democracy was defeated in so many countries that caved into US pressure...

[veracity]

117. Just kickin'

In case folks were away for the holidays and didn't get a chance to see this... I'm reviving it.

[goforit]

115. Dupe

OOPS....double posted!!