Why not make college free for everyone

[private_ryan]

who gets above a certain grade in high school. Maybe 50% of high school students should get in for free and the rest get a discounted rate or somthing similar.

The money it costs will be earned back when the enter the workforce more educated.

[SharonAnn]

1. I don't think the neo-cons want them more educated

because then they wouldn't join the military or take menial jobs at low pay so that their corporate owners can get rich.

[private_ryan]

5. corporate owners

would make more money if most of their employees were more educated IMO. Plenty of people would be left for those jobs and the military..

[loudnclear]

26. You mean like Communist/socialist Cuba does?

You mean like Iraq before Desert Storm?

[K8-EEE]

67. Like Most First World Countries

Affordable, subsidized higher education is a mainstay of most first world countries, but Banana Republics and Banana Republicans need to have a lot of ignorance, otherwise they couldn't get elected.

[radwriter0555]

127. Exactly. An uneducated populace votes REPUBLICAN.... and is easily

duped.

See? IT WORKED!

[okieinpain]

162. damn, another exactly for me. besides who is going to work

at all of those mcdonalds, and burger kings.

[waylon]

165. Depends on where you are at I think

I used to think that way but anymore Im afraid that is an outdated notion, and its dangerous. Im not hard left but I have voted left since 88. I used to think most repubs were backwoods, illiterates but Im not so sure about the new generation.

We just hired a marketing consultant, 5 figures, (Dartmouth eductated) who has an outstanding record of success with Borders, is pursuing a Phd in education, and plays a mean game of chess. (Very conservative and very pro Bush)

He might be the exception but my mind is changing about repubs. Not that I would ever vote that way but I am leary of characterizing them as stupid white men anymore. Underestimating the enemy is not a good idea.

I think we ought to recognize now that there is no typical repub and try to appeal to them in ways that dont offend. I try but I am not all that politically informed. And, its not always welcome in the office :)

[YNGW]

2. Just Wondering

Profs and campus employees need to get paid, so how is it going to be free?

[private_ryan]

7. state pays

n/t

[YNGW]

11. OK

So it's not *really* free, someone has to pay for it.

Glad we cleared that up.

[private_ryan]

16. actually it was cleared up, didn't know you're being a smar a--

It was free for everyone who gets a certain grade. Plenty of colleges are subsidized by the state so it's nothing new. People with education are less likely to need welfare, un-employemnt, go to jail and will eventually pay more in taxes. It's smart...if you really think about it.

[YNGW]

21. I wasn't.

On top of that, let's guarantee everyone a job and let's guarantee a a minimum income of $100K/yr to all workers. Talk about eliminating the need for welfare, unemployment and incarceration. And the tax revenue would be great!

[private_ryan]

23. school it's different

you still have to learn. Should we get rid of the current public school system too using your logic?

[YNGW]

27. No.

Why would anyone propose getting rid of prepitory levels of education?

[private_ryan]

37. it save us a lot of money

why have free schools?

[YNGW]

40. Sure it would.

And so would eliminating the police dept., but I don't see anyone proposing that either.

[private_ryan]

43. so why not extend it to include the college for good students then

if a free high school is that good?

[LincolnMcGrath]

46. Who are these good students?

[sangha]

146. Look around you!

Some of them are posting on DU.

[YNGW]

51. I agree

Didn't you already have that conversation with someone regarding scholarships and grant money?

And yes, there's a lot of scholarships and grant money that go unclaimed every year because students either aren't aware of it or don't know how to apply. Making that process less complicated would be a major step forward.

[Fla_Democrat]

31. Isn't that kind of unfair

to the person who doesn't get a certain grade? Don't they deserve the same chance? Maybe they are just a little slower than the 'average' person, shouldn't they get extra help, instead of no help?

I mean, if the student who didn't get a certain grade, had a little incentive, say tutoring provided free, maybe that would keep them off of welfare, un-employment, going to jail, etc.

If the idea is to only provide a free higher education to people who make a certain grade, how is that different than a scholarship, which we currently have available to students making a certain grade?

scholarship:
n 1: financial aid provided to a student on the basis of academic merit


No, for the idea to work, it must be applied across the board, with no academic criteria involved.

[private_ryan]

33. they had the chance

how many chances do they deserve? Some people just don't care. Scolarships now are only to a very few people, this would leave only a few without.

[Fla_Democrat]

44. Really

They had their chance, how many do they deserve? Hmmmm, interesting way of looking at it.

Seems to me that you are still leaving people out, if they didn't want to continue their education, I don't think anyone would be forcing them to. However, if they wanted to, they would be able to under my suggestion, they would be SOL under yours, cause they had their chance.

So, what grade is the cut off point, and when do we start writing people off because they "had their chance", and squandered it?

[private_ryan]

47. yeah, some people will ALWAYS be left out. That's life

even the in the wonderful "socialism" some animals are more equal than others. Here at least they have the chance to make themselves "more equal"...

[Fla_Democrat]

66. So, I think I got it

Current situation.

Higher education is available to people who can afford it. Scholarships are there for people who meet certain criteria. High grades, athletic ability, popularity, etc. Those that do not qualify for grants/scholarships, take out loans, that they repay back after they receive their education, and get a better job.

Proposed situation.

Higher education is available "free" to people who meet certain criteria. Those that do not qualify for the "free" education, have to take loans, that they repay, OR, do with out, subjecting them to a higher risk of un-employment, welfare, or jail.

The newly educated work force, will be paying higher taxes, so every one is happy. Except for the ones "left out", but since the taxes from the better jobs will be paying for un-employment, welfare, and jails, what do they have to gripe about?

So, the 10-15 year student loan, becomes a 35-40 year tax burden. Nice trade off.

[kclown]

145. This argument is at the extremes

Free college for all versus rugged individual no-subsidy. 
Nothing in the middle?

It's black.  No, it's white.

John Cleese: "This isn't an argument. It's bloody
contradiction!"  Eric Idle: "No it isn't."

[Cnemius]

49. People have to have SOME incentive

to get a freebie. The suggestion that achieving students get tuition for free is one thing. You are suggesting that people get free stuff without earning it. Where is the incentive there? Sounds like a quick way to state bankruptcy if you ask me.

[LincolnMcGrath]

52. achieving students?

Who are they?

Honor roll?

[private_ryan]

53. to be determined, beyond the scope of this thread but

probably the top 40%-50% of the class.

[LincolnMcGrath]

55. TOP WHAT? Grades?

Completed homework?

Standardized testing?

Attendance?

Popularity?

How is it beyond the scope of this thread, you bring it up everywhere.

[private_ryan]

56. popularity

how else do students get graded?

[LincolnMcGrath]

58. So the student who studies his ass off and gets a c-

gets the shaft?

And the student who masters rote memorization and never puts any effort into it gets the prize?

[private_ryan]

59. what does that have to do with popularity?

n/t

[LincolnMcGrath]

61. You tell us

You keep refering to the "top" students.

[YNGW]

62. Who do you want cutting on you in the operating room?

The one who worked their ass off and got a C-, or the one who comprehended the material in a seemingly more effortless way than the other student and was the top in his/her class?

You decide.

[LincolnMcGrath]

64. I prefer the one with steady hands lol

[YNGW]

69. Agreed

And the one who completed the work as determined by those who teach such trades, regardless of their individual ability to grasp concepts more efficiently than others, will go forward, and the other, despite his hard work, will "get the shaft".

A "C-" student who worked his butt off or an "A+" student who didn't have to study as hard but still learned the trade in such a way that he excelled above his peers?

I'll go with the A+ student. And stand a better chance of living. Thank you very much.

Lesson #1: Some things in life just aren't fair.
Lesson #2: Get over it!

[private_ryan]

71. you're mean

I think we should eliminate tests and just take the student's word that they know the subject. This way no one's feeling are hurt. What a wonderful world this would be....

[LincolnMcGrath]

78. Who said eliminate tests?

perhaps some reading comp. testing might be needed here.

This is not about hurt feelings. Many studies show ADHD patients are the best workers out there. I worked at a factory in high school that also employed severely mentally handicapped people, and they were very dedicated hard workers. What kind of grades do you think they would get?

[LincolnMcGrath]

74. Thank goodness all those drop outs never added anything

to modern science.

Save your lessons thank you.

[private_ryan]

76. they didn't free college education, did they?

n/t

[LincolnMcGrath]

79. When was college education held captive?

[YNGW]

81. Can't save my lessons

There's too many people out there who need them, whether they realize it at this point in life or not.

[LincolnMcGrath]

82. Thanks for clearing that up

[YNGW]

83. Anytime

[LincolnMcGrath]

84. Let us know the answer to World Peace when you get a chance

[YNGW]

88. You don't know?

One thing at a time. No reason to put people into overload who have difficulty grasping even the most simple of concepts.

[LincolnMcGrath]

90. Fine way to refer to fellow DUers

[YNGW]

91. Hey!

I like wakeboarding, too. Grew up in Florida on a lake. I enjoyed wakeboarding while geting pulled behind the boat and going out to the ocean and ridin' the waves.

Tried it a few years ago just to see. Too many years and too many pounds. Not the same.

[LincolnMcGrath]

92. Lived in Ocoee, Florida 2000-2002 my damn self

So you are a cracker, huh? My youngest was born there. My precious little crackerass. lol

[formernaderite]

152. assuming everyone should go to college is an elitist notion.

I find it very elitist to assume the only education worth receiving is via a college diploma. Let's revamp high school so that undergraduate programs aren't merely their extension, and bring back trade schools!!!
Europe has a fine apprentice program, and no one lectures that most should go to University. This is a ridiculous notion. University's should be very difficult to enter, the cost would then be less of an issue. Most jobs do not require a college diploma, in fact the skills necessary to complete even many corporate positions could readily be taught in high school.

[Kanary]

156. Hurrah for elitists!

The idea that education is ONLY for financial gain is a new and distorted vision of education.

Every culture needs educated citizenry. Our election results alone should make that very clear.

Actually, European societies value *true* education much more than USians do.

Kanary

[11 Bravo]

45. I don't know what state you live in,

but I live in Virginia, and we are flat, fucking, broke! If we can just place someone in the White House whose reason for being is not simply to enact tax cuts for their rich prick friends; perhaps the state governments can begin to regain some semblance of solvency. Then, and only then, can higher education become at least affordable once more.

[private_ryan]

54. they money it's there

do you spend it in prisons or education? You need an initial investment but eventually I think it would pay off. When you have a job, you are less likely to go rob the liquor store.

[okieinpain]

164. actually it doesn't have to be free, just super low cost loans

spead out over the life of the individual would be nice. if the person didn't want to go to school they would not be required to do so. and later on when they see that they have to get a better education they would be able to attend somewhere and better their lots in life. I'm a perfect example of that, associate degree after being out of high school for 10 years. except my student loan isn't low cost.

[mike_c]

18. only a small fraction of the cost of operating state universities...

...comes from tuition payments. The majority is paid by taxpayers as a state entitlement program-- a good investment, I would argue, but then I'm a university prof. Frankly, the only good argument I can accept for not fully subsidizing the cost of a university education-- at least for the best students, e.g. the top 30 percent-- is that one of the major souces of pressure upon state university systems to improve comes from "fee payers"-- students and their parents-- who primarily percieve the immediate costs of tuition rather than the larger costs of taxpayer subsidies.

[Fovea]

100. Not just a good idea

but one indirectly endorsed by the god of the free market, Adam Smith.

If one takes the argument that public goods are those that speed commerce and ensure the fruits of capital, then in today's economy of information and technological instrumentalities, higher education is as much a public good as a lighthouse or bridge.

India knows this... why don't we?

[XNASA]

3. Certainly you're not suggesting an even playing field...

...are you?

Whaddaya? Some kind of socialist pinko nutjob???

;-)

[private_ryan]

9. not even

good students get in, bad student don't. Or, at least not for free.

[XNASA]

14. Well, that would be evening the playing field.

Cause the way it works now is, money talks and everybody else walks.

[private_ryan]

17. yeah, but still it's a merit thing

race or social status doesn't matter. You have a desire to learn, here it is. You don't, starve with your Kmart job.

[XNASA]

24. It's true. On a level field, merit should prevail.

[Cleita]

4. When I went to college, all University of California

campuses were tuition free to California residents as were the state colleges. We can thank Ronald Reagan's term as governor for fucking that up.

[cally]

57. The intent of the California college system

is to provide free education to every student. Tuition is low, but not free. Still, you can go the community college for very little tuition. State college and Universities cost more. If you have a college near you, our state system costs much less than most. One of the reasons California has thrived economically is it's educated populace.

I went to college 20 years ago. I paid about $500 for a years tuition at UC Berkeley! Another reason I don't complain about taxes I pay. I know how I benefitted.

Edwards has a proposal for free college education that is very good. His arguments are sound.

[slackmaster]

63. What years did you attend UC?

There was no "tuition" when I attended (1975 - 1980), but there was a quarterly "registration fee".

The fee was $158 per quarter for CA residents when I started.

It was about $235 IIRC at the time I graduated.

Non-residents had to pay an additional roughly $3K per year.

Books cost me about $250 - $400 per quarter.

[cally]

87. I attended 1976 to 1980 and 1981-1983

Your numbers seem better than mine. I just know I didn't pay much and books cost more than tuition. What was your major? I took many economics courses and majored in Conservation of Natural Resources.

[maveric]

6. The govt. does not want educated people. Only the rich and repug.

I think that it would be a great idea but in this age of mis/disinformation our reich meisters do not want an educated public.

[Pithlet]

8. The money we spend for this war

would probably pay a good percentage of the tuition bills for anyone who wanted to go to college. I think that would be a great thing.

[Hippo_Tron]

115. Yeah but you know that you could never get 100 billion for education...

Through congress Republican or Dem controlled. It's probably go to tax cuts of some sort.

[Droopy]

10. Sounds like a good idea to me

Hell while we're at it, why don't we just make it free to everyone coming out of high school. While in college you have to maintain a certain grade point average, and if you drop below that then you have to pay to stay in.

[private_ryan]

13. becuase some people just don't care to learn

and go to high school only to waste time or because they have to. Especially since it's free.

[LincolnMcGrath]

29. SO.....Learning disabilities are made Up?

Honor roll kids are smarter!

[hellhathnofury]

12. As a high school senior I heartily endorse this plan.

A voucher system would be preferable.

[Kathleen04]

15. Could the 4 year colleges..

operate the same way as the 2 year community colleges do? Registration fee, classes cost a certain amount per credit unit (I think it's $12 here), plus the money earned from selling text books. The only problem is if the state gets into finanical trouble, like it is here in CA, a bunch of the classes get cut. It seems doable to me though, if the states manage their budgets well.

[private_ryan]

20. $12?

That's free to me...15 credits under $200. That's why you have to make it federal or something that can't be cut without hell freezing over.

[Kathleen04]

32. I think it used to be $12..

I quickly checked and they raised it to $18 as a result of the CA budget, but it's still very reasonable. It's the first 2 years. 60 credits and you get an AA degree, which is 2 years of education for $1,080. Pretty inexpensive, it seems as though they could work to expand it for the other 2 years.

Text books are an extra expense..but you can buy used ones and resell them.

[MissB]

19. There was a ltte in our local paper yesterday

From someone who thought that college should not be subsidized. After all, he had managed to pay his way through college (probably back when it was very cheap).

Today, it isn't unusual for college graduates to leave with tens of thousands of dollars in debt. It makes it unreachable for many people.

I disagree with the idea of basing free entry into college based on high school grades. There are some crappy school systems out there, and you'd likely miss some very bright people.

Just make it affordable. Set tuition at $100 a term or something reasonable. A financial stake is a good motivator, but not to the point where one graduates heavily in debt.

[private_ryan]

22. no matter how crappy

you'd still be on the top of the crappy school if you care. Maybe do it by top x%...

[MissB]

25. No, my point is that the crappy systems

Fail some bright students. Students that wouldn't necessarily end up in the top percent.

It is the setting of a certain percent that I disagree with.

Sorry I wasn't clearer in my original post.

[Kathleen04]

35. There should be..

a few ways to assess the qualifications of the student, just like alot of colleges do now..in person interviews, etc. Maybe students could be let in on 'academic probation', which could give them a chance to go to the college and another chance to work harder.

[private_ryan]

39. maybe

but my point is that some people don't make the effort. Everyoen class has a few and we all know them. Sleep through the class, show up 20 minutes before it ends, laugh, make jokes...Why waste money if they don't want to learn? There's has to be a cut point.

[Fovea]

98. How about

greater than 2.5 GPA, tuition free semester to the bacalaurate level.

greater than 3.0 GPA, tuition free semester to the masters level.

greater than 3.5 GPA, free ride to PhD.

I guarantee that the students would work harder for that.

[MissB]

41. You are right

I'd just prefer something between a set percent and all-out free college for everyone. Something like a partial pay system (like the $100/term tuition).

No matter, really. I'm pretty pessimistic to something anywhere close to this happening.

[mouse7]

28. Because knowledge is power

The elites want to have the knowledge and power and keep it from us serfs.

When people become educated, they gain the ability to learn just how much they have come to be controlled.

[revcarol]

30. Are you by any chance going along with KUCINICH'S plan?

Check out his site: http://www.kucinch.us
and see his plan AND how it can be paid for.

[private_ryan]

36. not really

that's my "socialism" stops. Give people a chance to better themselves, not carry them for life. It can be paid the same way prisons and the WOD is paid for. This one instead would pay for itself a few years after the first few classes get jobs.

[revcarol]

50. Who said anything about carrying them for life?

Just free college,or technical school( and free pre-kinder.)Wasn't that what you asked about?

[PsN2Wind]

34. Do those of us working

have to pick up their bar tabs too? And the cost of going to Rocky Point for spring break.

[private_ryan]

42. well, we'd buy Cancun

and guys would take turns working the place for "free". I would put my week or two in.

[YNGW]

48. Either one would be fine with me.

Not only that, but if there's a May Pole around at either location, Watch Out!! It's Dance Fever in the 21st Century time.

[Virginian]

38. What about foreign students?

There are some schools with a high foreign enrollment because foreign students pay higher tuition rates. Therefore, it is hard for American students to get accepted. Would the rules change?
We would have to have enough room in our schools for our population. We would have to build more schools...

[slackmaster]

60. Great idea

Please tell us how you would have it financed.

[arewethereyet]

65. have you been reading Edwards platform again ?

funny how all these cool new ideas have been getting reached by the good senator for months now !

[private_ryan]

68. I thought it DK's idea

read a few threads above :)

[JohnKleeb]

125. They both have ideas for something like it

I am willing to give both the Senator and the Congressman credit for this. Edwards plan isnt exactly like DK's, but its good as is DK's. I dont mind this idea Ryan, if we get the public educated, they will be more smarter and informed. Edwards and Kucinich are on the right track in this respect.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

150. Edwards is great on education

Kucinich, Edwards, and Gephardt have the best plans for financing education right now. Edwards has been taking the lead on it too, probably more than any other candidate. I really trust Edwards on issues like education and jobs, unlike some other candidates.

[mitchum]

70. But that would make us like all of those other countries...

who enjoy a higher standard of living than the US. And we certainly don't want to replace jingoism with reality.

[Terwilliger]

72. because everybody to the right of Kucinich would call it socialism?

and that's a bogeyman that no one wants to face

[mmonk]

73. Sounds nice

but state budgets are already in trouble.

[private_ryan]

75. once again

you need an INITIAL investment, but it would save a fortune in the end (nto tomention that it's the right thing to do). How did we finance the war in Iraq, war on drugs, tax cuts?

[mmonk]

110. debt

[private_ryan]

130. debt

this one can repay itself though. Like borrowing to buy a house.

[beyurslf]

Riiiiight.

Don't you know there are more important things like billions for haliburton in Iraq?

[LincolnMcGrath]

80. You can say that again

[beyurslf]

77. Riiiiight.

Don't you know there are more important things like billions for haliburton in Iraq?

[Columbia]

85. We have a program like that in place already

It's called the Montgomery G.I. Bill. Available to anyone who serves honorably for 4 years in the United States military regardless of age, race, class, sex, sexual orientation, political affiliation, academic merit, etc.

[corporatewhore]

94. umm what if iwant to go to college with

out sacrificeing myself nobley for halliburton

[Columbia]

97. Too cynical? Then get a job.

[U4ikLefty]

107. or have a rich Texas daddy!!!

[eyesroll]

132. Um, the GI Bill is not available to people with physical disabilities.

(Since most physical disabilities do keep people out of the miltary.)
Nor is it available without regard to sexual orientation. "Don't ask/don't tell" still forces a lot of gay and lesbian people -- or even those perceived to be gay or lesbian -- out of the military.

[Kathleen04]

86. Even right now..

College can be affordable.

In California:

Community College for 2 years=$1,080.

Cal State school for 2 years=$5,000.

$6,000 for college without any grants or scholarships.

[Pattib]

89. I think our state (Florida) has a good deal going.

My son is a college freshman. In the state of Fl. we have what is called "Bright Futures". This is how it works:

If you graduate with a 3.5 weighted gpa in academic classes/75 hrs. community service/1270 Sat or 28 ACT you get 100% tuition coverage at any college (public) in the state and $300.00 for books/lab fees. You can use it at a private college but the tuition monies would be at the amount the state schools get.

If you graduate with a 3.0 weighted/20 ACT/970 SAT you get 75% tuition covered.

This does not include room and board. However, my son received a scholarship for his room cost Basically, we are only paying for his food. Not to shabby.

Also, you can take, free of charge community college classes during high school. This also includes the cost of all books. The state lottery is where the money comes from.

[Yupster]

93. Not to change the subject, but

a question to people who work at college. Why have college costs gone up at twice the rate of inflation for 20 years now? What's driving this runaway cost? I know employees are not making 100 k per year. Any ideas? because they're pricing themselves out of middle class America's range.

[Peregrine]

95. Missouri

The Missouri constitution requires college to be free to residents. They are permitted to charge for non-academics (clubs, retirement of construction bonds, interest on loans) as incidental fees (in 1973 that was $380 per semester). Last year the incidental fees were over $5000, and the state supreme court ruled those charges as unconstitutional.

[IndianaGreen]

96. Why not become Socialists?

Why settle for the crumbs we get out of capitalism, "sprinkled" with enough socialism to make it palatable, when we can get the whole ball of wax?

[Kanary]

140. I guess USians want crumbs, eh?

You've put it very clearly, and very succinctly.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that nobody has even made an attempt at responding to you, but I'm certainly discouraged.

I guess the only reason is that..... USians are perfectly happy with crumbs.

Wonder if we'll ever actually notice we're starving?

Kanary

[pasadenaboy]

99. I think people should pay something

either money or labor to go to college. You need to pay something for it in order to value what you are getting. However, it should be affordable to all.

[private_ryan]

131. they are paying for it by learning

the idea someone said was great. The better the GPA, the less you pay. Over a certain GPA everything is free. You don't study, you pay for it yourself.

[Kanary]

134. Could you please think this through for one minute? Please?

You want only the "upper tier" of students to receive free tuition, is that right?

Have you looked lately at who these "upper tier" students are, for the most part?

In case your answer to that is "no", you haven't considered that aspect.... The students with the highest grades are usually (not always, but usually) the students from the higher income levels. So, what you're in effect proposing is that the very students who already can afford to go to college will have a free ride, while those who don't have the $$ *still* won't have the $$$

Now, are you ready to get out of the rut of thinking of this in the same old ways that have never solved anything, and start to look at it in a different "box"?

Please?

Kanary

[private_ryan]

144. BULL

if you want to get good grades, you'll get them everywhere. It's not fail safe and some people who might deserve will be left out, but that's life. Life is not fair.

Even in horrible schools (as far as neighborhood, economics) you can still be the top x% of the class (who are in the same shoes as you are) if you want to. Does it mean that you got the same education as a kid in a good CT or NJ suburb? No, but you were still a good student (in YOUR school) and would get in if it was done that x top % of the students get in for free. If you don't do good, too bad. We can't take your word that you're smart.

[Kanary]

147. There's sooo much you don't understand

So, BULL right back atcha.

Good debating skills, btw... that BULL tells me you could use a few classes in effective elocution.

I would suggest that before you try to legislate some sweeping generalizations about who is a good student in the context of our current education system, and callously cut out ones you think aren't "worthy", that you do some study yourself in the whole area of learning and what that entails. There's soooo much you've left out of your neat little equation.

Since the topic you've started is all about education, the place to start is how people learn, and the roadblocks to learning that are firmly in place in this society, and how that's doing us in.

That is, if you're really wanting to think about this whole issue and find good solutions.

That *is* what you're wanting, right?

Or are you just seeking ways to fund your own schooling, and that of people exactly like you?

Education means an open mind..... that's the place to start.

Kanary

[private_ryan]

148. I'm just looking to fund my own education

and that of people exactly like me (On edit: the bourgeois class). Have a wonderful day!

[Kanary]

151. Kinda what I figured

[havenotidentified]

101. Georgia has a free higher education system.

I graduated from GSU recently. In Georgia they have the H.O.P.E. scholarship available to all students. The criteria: you must be a Georgia Resident, you must have a 3.0 GPA when graduating high school and maintain that minimum throughout college and you must be enrolled at least half time; on top of that they provide $150 per semester to help in books. Every 30 hours of attempted credit hours they review you to make sure that you meet the requirements. However, the scholarship is funded by the lottery but with the high success of this program it is projected to be bankrupt and unaffordable by the lottery within 5 years.

[nancyharris]

102. Free College?

Why not free food and free housing. Certainly they are much more important than college – maybe throw in a free energy efficient car so people can get back and forth to work.

[Deja Q]

103. Free for everyone, period.

Kucinich, et al, see the value of society's infrastructure.

Corporations see only CEO profits as valuable. They also see that they can survive on the explotation and hardship of others outside the US, let the rest of us within die - they will have enough to continue the economy anyway. (can you spell "social engineering"?)

Thanks to that creep Reagan, corporate life is becoming LIFE. Reagan helped create the state of the country as it stands today. Republicans have said as much when endorsing this needless tantrum to waste time and taxpayer money to change a face, once again proving how they don't care about society...

[alfredo]

104. Then there would be increased competition for the jobs usually

reserved for the child of privilege. The gentry would not stand for that.

[ecstatic]

105. then only people with Masters & PhDs would get jobs

Sorry, the rich and powerful would never allow for a truly equal playing field. If college was free for all, then people of all races would be able to get an education. Unfortunately, the result of such equal access would result in making college educations obsolete and making Masters/PhDs necessary.

[jsw_81]

106. Bad idea

A college education would become nearly worthless if we just gave them to practically anyone. One should have to compete for and earn a college degree, not just sign up for one because you finish in the top half (or whatever) of your h.s. class.

If you want an inexpensive education you can always go to an open admissions community or junior college. Universities, however, should be reserved for the really good students.

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

119. Isn`t that regulating the market in some way?

The problem is that people have some idea that people with education should earn more than people in menial jobs. Therefore, people fear the consequences of higher education for everyone with the intellectual abilities, that it will become obvious to everyone that people with higher education is NOT some kind of supermen?

[PsN2Wind]

108. There really ain't anything free

and I think what you propose is elitist. Sure I'm top 50% so I get
a free ride. The riff-raff can go out into those menial jobs we have left after exporting most of our manufacturing and toil to support my brilliant ass.

[alfredo]

109. Americorps, return the funding, expand it.

[101 Proof]

111. No shit...

now I'm on financial aid suspension because I had disabilities (mental) that hindered me to get the college's expectations. Now I'll never afford to go back.

[LibertyorDeath]

112. Free what is this thing free? Do you mean OUR TAXES will pay for it?

[Kanary]

113. You guys crack me up. Thanks for the chuckle

Going on and on about the need for inserting "motivation" by either requiring payment, or performance. Has anyone here actually looked into the free educational systems of most of the countries in the industrial world? Have you noticed that they don't seem to have any problem at all with "motivation"? What in the world is wrong with our citizens that we're the only ones in the world who seem to need to be kicked in order to perform? Why are our students the only ones who lack "motivation"? Something here is very puzzling, and very wrong.

I got a real chuckle reading how many high school students aren't interested in school, and have no desire to be there other than being required to, yet in the next breath, I read that these students shouldn't receive free education... they should pay for it. So, tell me, if they don't want to be in school anyway, why in the world do you suggest they would be beating down the doors to get into college if it was free?? There's some connection missing here. Are you sugesting that students now be *forced* to go to college if it was provided free?? Some people *don't* want to attend school... period. Right? So, they are not the ones included in your equation about problems of students who aren't interested in studying. Cuz... they won't be there! Right? They aren't interested, and won't be there, free or no.

Try looking at some of the students who have all the money in the world, and can go to any college they so desire... Why..... look at dumbya...... He was a student, he could afford it in the current system, and look at what a success he was. ::rolling eyes:: You see, all this "motivation" stuff just doesn't hold up. Those who really want to go to school, whether they were able to get good grades in high school or not, are already "motivated". School isn't a picnic, it is hard work, and it's not something you do just because..... Unless you're already rich and spoiled and bored.....

Finally, most people here are equating education with jobs. That is another peculiarity of our latter-day system. Education is supposed to be for it's own sake... to be a more informed citizen. Over and over, there are complaints here on D.U. about the "sheeple" who are not able to think on their own, who never gained the knowledge of deductive reasoning. Whether they go on to pursue a living in construction or plumbing, or a manager in retail, wouldn't it be an advantage to our whole nation if everyone had the opportunity to learn, and to hone their thinking skills? Wouldn't we all be better off if 90% of the citizens of this country were able to debate ideas in a reasonable, knowledgeable and thoughtful manner? Once again........ this is what has been happening now for decades in *MOST* countries.

Since this whole concept seems to be a foreign concept to most people, I suspect either what I've said here will be ignored, or I'll get some sharp putdowns. Maybe a few will actually think about it.

Here's to informed debate...

:toast:

Kanary

[Mairead]

116. Beautiful, Kanary, just beautiful

And now watch all the puzzled looks from the folks who've never learnt how to really think.

[klyon]

123. you got it

Life time learning and learning for it's own sake.
Learn to think, it can be fun.

KL

[Hippo_Tron]

114. I think the no down payments that the British are doing...

Is a good system.

[incapsulated]

117. Germany does it

And free vocational school for 2 years if you're not quite "college material" as well.

But what do they know, they lost the war.
 
 

[Kellanved]

128. at the moment

But the lobby for privatized Universities and/or tuition-fees is strong, the public treasuries empty. The conservative party demands them right now, even many social-democrats advocate that only one major should be free (with a tight time frame).
Thousands of students are protesting to keep Universities free, but nobody knows how...

I'd be surprised if Higher Education is still free in four years - the current federal Government does everything to stop fees, but I don't know how long that will continue.

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

118. That is not uncommon

In Scandinavia college is completely "free" to everyone. That is not without it`s problems though, as we are getting a surplus of people with higher education. The "problem" seems to be that it is not higher wages that motivates people to take higher education, like the "capitalists" claim, but the possibility to use ones intellectual abilities. As a result, a carpenter have higher life term earnings than many with higher education. But still, to many wants to have higher education and to few want to be carpenters!

[Kanary]

129. Bingo, PeeWee! You got it!

"The "problem" seems to be that it is not higher wages that motivates people to take higher education, like the "capitalists" claim, but the possibility to use ones intellectual abilities."

Imagine. If given the chance, most people would want to seek higher education for the opportunity to learn more. Just imagine.

In colleges where it has been offered, many, many retired people audit college courses that are offered free to their age group, just because it's a good experience to keep learning. Imagine. *NOT* because they are seeking better employment, but because they want to know about subjects they haven't had the opportunity to learn about before. Imagine that. I'm sure it would not be possible to tie this phenomenon to the fact that elderly voters are more active voters and more informed on the issue, but...... certainly it's not hurting that cause!

So, lessseee.... we could have the "problem" of a shortage of carpenters, or we can continue having the problem of too many people not being able to reason well, being suckers for any and all fabrications of the truth handed out by those in power, a galloping rate of lawlessness, etc etc etc. Hmmm, I wonder which problem would be easier to deal with......

One of the *most severe* problems we seem to have in this society is the inflated sense of our superiority, which leads us to presume that the way we have always done things, and the way we conceptualize issues is the only way there is. By refusing to look at how other countries are coping with these issues, and by refusing to think about our problems in different ways, we are hamstringing ourselves into a very narrow range of options, and having to cope with the resulting messes.

When do you suppose we'll be sufficiently fed up with our arrogance and deadend systems, and ready to learn from other countries?

Is it snowing in hell yet?

It is everlastingly sad that so many are soooo cemented in rigid thinking that we have become accustomed to our own version of hell, and afraid to bust out of it into some sunlight. We're like abused wives..... we're so comfortable with our pain that we aren't even thinking that we need to get out of it to something more healthy. Better the devil ya know, right?

To use an already outworn phrase, folks, it waaaay past time to start thinking out of the box, and give ourselves a chance to make this once again the country it was meant to be. Suppose we can get out of said box now? Please?

sigh...

Kanary, impatient for some new directions!

[private_ryan]

133. Oh, I see no one wants higher wages

who are you kidding? Money and power motivates people, always has, always will. Ask everyone why they consider college and see what % you got "to get smarter so I can debate intelligently" vs "I want to have a good job and make lot's of money".

Even in those few communist and socialist societies that was true despite all the 24/7 brainwashing...people are motivated by money and want to better themselves ($$$$$).

[Kanary]

155. Actually, there's MUCH more to motivation

A *lot* has been written about motivation, so this is a much larger topic than you want it to include.

Again, I would suggest to you that this would be a good opportunity to look beyond the usual lines put out by the standard sources.

"Money and power motivates people, always has, always will."
Sorry, your sweeping generalization doesn't hold up. Again, you're only looking at what is right in front of you, while some of us are trying to encourage you, in a very educational way, to look at the broader picture. Having a background in anthropology, I'm quite familiar with different cultures in different ages, and I know that other peoples have much to teach us Precisely Because they were more in touch with what naturally motivated them. For every instance you point to about power and money motivating people, I can point to an instance that demonstrates the exact opposite. It's a matter of learning about something outside our own narrow point of reference, which means.... EDUCATION.

In terms of understanding that EDUCATION wasn't always limited to financial goals, we have to look no further than the great thinkers of our own society, and that includes our founding fathers. Much was said about the value of learning for the sake of learning. I would go so far as to assert that learning Only to enhance your potential earnings is not actual learning.

The forces that have shaped our current narrow view of education are certainly not coming from a natural inclination of people themselves, or from what is most beneficial to a culture. We're being boxed in by the needs of Big Business. Surely we can break out of that box, before it suffocates us?

You can be sarcastically dismissive all you want, but that isn't going to change what motivation consists of, and how it affects the whole subject of education. There's nothing to get all upset about.... it's actually in your own best interest to do some of the reading and studying about what education really means.

Kanary

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

161. Then..........

Explain why the heck potheads are almost the only norwegians that want to become carpenters, even if carpenters make more than teachers?

I got it partly wrong, money motivates, but it certainly aren`t the only motivational factor. My point is that people WILL take higher education, even if the don`t get higher wages by doing it. ¨

The point is that repetitive and physically punishing work is against human nature, and most humans that have the chance will try their best to avoid it.

[Malva Zebrina]

120. City College, NYC, was free for residents

in the fifties I am pretty sure. I think that there was some admission requirements , though.

[TreasonousBastard]

157. It most certainly was.

Colin Powell, Ed Koch, and I went there for free, along with many others whose names I've forgotten.

CUNY was City College, Queens College, Brooklyn College, and two Hunter College campuses, with each borough having a Community College for those who just missed getting in the four year schools.

It started out as free education for poor immigrants and others who couldn't afford NYU, Columbia, Fordham, and the other schools. By the time I went there in the '60's you had to have a combination of high school GPA and SAT's to get in, but from then on it cost $24 a term plus books and the occasional lab fees.

It was as tough to stay in as it was to get in. Tougher. It was free , but everyone was motivated. We had an extraordinarily high number of graduates going on to advanced degress.

Some time in the 70's "open admissions" started, which meant anyone with a high school diploma was guaranteed a place. Standards for admission and graduation became significantly reduced or virtually nonexistant, and damn near half the courses became remedial.

A few new colleges and junior colleges were opened, and the whole thing went broke.

The lesson is simply that free education is a great thing, and works, but standards must be enforced.

[kcwayne]

121. Because it will raise medical costs

By giving more people the college experience, there will be much greater anxiety and sense of unfillment. Since we are quickly moving to an economy where the only employment comes from the likes of Walmart, if you are lucky enough to get it, all of these college educated people will be mentally stifled at cashier and custodial jobs.

They will need massive quantities of Valium and Prozac. Unless of course we want an entire nation of people that "go postal" with regularity.

Think this is fantasy? A friend of mine has a son that graduated last June from Indiana University with a degree in computer science. He finally found a job last week, at Dick's Sporting Goods as a floor manager. He will still have to live at home for a couple of years to save up enough money to break out on a life of his own, even though he has no debts.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

122. It would cut the supply of cannon fodder for the corporations.

Well informed, educated, people are less likely to rush to "defend" American Interests($$$$). What would the likes of Exxon and Haliburton do when 3rd world countries try to defend themselves against predatory American corporations. Why, they might suffer losses!! Unthinkable.

[Booberdawg]

124. Works for me. Simple as that.

:thumbsup:

[JohnKleeb]

126. Personally thats a good idea

We will have a smarter populace if this was so and more well informed. It's a shame this hasnt happened yet, because if it had well then maybe my grandparents might have been able to have gone to college and many of my aunts and uncles.

[PsN2Wind]

135. By "free" you mean

that someone other than you or your parents foot the bill. That hardly makes it "free" to anyone other than the beneficiary of the program. Your assumption that more people having those degrees are going to somehow create jobs to hire them, IMHO, is flawed. I don't see anyone saying "Wow, half the new job seekers have BAs, I better start a business to employ them". Ask the IT people, it don't work that way.
A better solution would be to bring the manufacturing of goods back to this country. That would provide the jobs with a wage sufficient to allow more people to help their kids thru college, would provide jobs for those not wanting, or able, to go to college and would increase tax revenues to allow more funding of ALL programs, not just those that benefit you.
Being "free" for you does not make it free for me.

[private_ryan]

136. read the post again instead of putting free in quotes.

free to who did I say? Also, you ignore the fact that more educated people are better at running businesses, more productive, new inventions etc., etc. With the IT the main problem is that too many people are in that field and IT is in a slump right now. Not everyoen with a college degree will be a manager or CEO but whatever position he has, he (most likely) will be a better employee because of the education.

Good luck on the manufacturing part. It's over, no one (or not enough people) will buy a $100 "Made in The Usa" DVD player when the ones made in chine are $40.

[PsN2Wind]

139. I put free in quotes

because that is what you said.
Too many people in the IT field caused it to slump but half the people with BAs won't decrease the value of that degree.
Last, but hardly the least, considering your cavalier attitude toward the people losing their jobs to offshore manufacturing why should any of them give a shit about educating you.

[private_ryan]

141. it's in the slump not because of many techies, but because of the DEMAND

for IT services and products. When the demand was high in the internet boom you couldn't hire them fast enough, now it's the opposite. Next year it may change again. Part of the reason why they're so many techies is that they thought that demand was always going to be high, and many people chose that field a few years ago.

My attitude is not cavalier, it's the reality. That's over with and nothing can bring those jobs back....unless you suggest a state takeover, Soviet style. A US employee can't compete with 50 cents an hour Chinese employees.

on edit: The value it will be decreased of course, 30-40 years ago having a high school diploma was good. I think we're better off now that most people have high school diplomas, no?

[PsN2Wind]

158. OK you win

We sure don't want a Soviet style takeover. We only want that part of socialism that might be of benefit to you, screw the rest.
Lets put that in the democratic platform , Free college for the academic elite, import cheap goods (screw manufacturing people).

[private_ryan]

159. first of all this is not going to benefit me at all

second, how do you suppose we go about bringing the jobs back here? Tax the goods made in other countries to death? Even tax breaks to companies will be not be enough to make up for the cheap labor and goods in 3rd world countries.


"academic elite" because they STUDIED hard.

[PsN2Wind]

160. You seem to find it very easy

to write off the livelihoods of other people. Where are the 50% that don't receive the free ride you want go to work?
If you feel that it's OK for the lesser educated to compete with foreign labor, because that's just the way it is, don't be upset if those same people say "rather than tax me to educate people here in the US, just import educated people from India".
You think we can just gin up the money to provide this "free college" but withdrawing from NAFTA, GATT, the WTO, et al. and bringing back the jobs that caused this country to prosper for the last several decades, prior to these "free trade agreements" is insurmountable.
It ain't just about cheap DVD players, it's about providing the best opportunities for all the people of the country, regardless of their education or even intellect.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

137. Perspectives from a former college professor

1. Those other countries that have free college also have very stringent admissions standards. You have to pass a series of head-busting exams to get in. No country that I know of has both free tuition and open admissions. Even California, during its heyday of affordable college, limited admission to the UC system to the top students, the state universities to the top half, and the junior (community) colleges to the rest.

2. Not everyone is cut out for college. And before you accuse me of being racist or classist, I would include dumb rich kids like the Bushboy in that group. There are lots of students who are in college today only because their parents need a place to park them for four years. They're the ones who cheat on exams, get drunk three nights a week, riot after sporting events, and consider school to be a game of outsmarting the teacher.

3. I would begin by reforming the K-12 schools to emphasize a love of learning and imagination similar to the Waldorf School model. The greatest handicap besetting the typical American school is the anti-intellectualism of American culture.

4. One of the things that bothered me most Americans' attitude toward college is the view that it's simply for vocational training. All those "college-educated" Republican business executives and Libertarian techies are the result of college curricula that emphasize vocational training instead of critical thinking and cultural awareness.

Sure, we need vocational training and always will, but the critical lack in this country today, and the reason that Bush can get high approval ratings from supposedly educated people, is that too few people know history, geography, political science, economics, the natural sciences, the arts, or foreign languages and culture.

One well-known university fights that kind of well-trained ignorance (or at least it did in the 1980s) by not allowing students to major in business or computer science except as a double major paired with a liberal arts field.

Ideally, we could start by getting our high schools up to European levels. That's one reason for greater political liberalism in Europe. Their secondary school graduates have better general knowledge about the world than most of our college graduates.

[Kanary]

143. Your points "3" and "4" are very important!

A few of us here have been trying to get that very thing across, but..... they're all talking over each other, and apparently not even reading other thoughts out of their own little box. The problem goes deep, as you've outlined.

I would strongly urge you to add Cultural Anthropology to your list of important subjects needed in order to learn to think more critically. I'm not one who is big on required courses, but if there are to be courses that all are required to study, I would definitely add Cultural Anthropology right at the top of the list. When one learns to look objectively at cultures around the world and in different eras, one also learns to step outside of one's own culture and evaluate it without the standard biases and self-congradulatory rah-rah.

From this discussion, I'm discouraged that there's any possibility of USians even beginning to think about all this in a different way... until we blow ourselves up or box ourselves into such an impossible corner that we can't figure out how to fight our way out of it.

I think I'm tired of pushing for a broader perspective. It's exhausting constantly swimming upstream.

Kanary

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

163. Actually, we have

Norway has both higher education, and free admission to universities in fields like political science, chemistry, physics, computer science and humanistic faculties. Also, our engineering schools are only half full.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

166. But is admission completely open?

Or do prospective students have to take an exam to enter the university?

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

167. completely open

It is completely open. All you have to do is to have passed high school. The down side is that we get far to many students at the societal and humanistic faculties. When it comes to engineering school and natural sciences, it limits itself because many simply are not cut out for it. In Norway, absolutely anyone can attempt a higher education on government subsidized loans.

Hovewer, there are strict admissions for law school and more specialized studies.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

168. I would guess that high school in Norway

is more demanding than high school in many American cities. If I remember what my cousins told me, you are required to study foreign languages and take more math and science and other "solid" subjects than we are.

When I taught first-year college students, I found them to be rather ignorant of the world. They were actually surprised to find out that Japanese people don't live exactly like Americans, because they'd heard that Japan is a modern country.

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

169. Unfortunantly

I don`t really know much about american high school. We can get admittance to college from any kind of high school. We must have maths and physics the first year of high school, and we must have a foregin language other than english(which we all learn) for two years.

We do hovewer have a problem with students chosing "light subjects" in high school, and our schools are declining in quality.

[Ksec]

138. But then who would do the work?

I mean cmon. We need mechanics, steel workers, burger flippers. What self respecting grad would shovel shit?

[private_ryan]

142. don't worry. Plenty of people will be left

not mention Mexico :)

[Powerlock]

170. Please tell me I am reading you wrong

So basically educate the top percent, (<cough> whites) and then the racial minority (i.e. mexicans) can do the crap work? Yea plenty of brown people to go around I guess. You should forward your plan to your local Klan chapter ASAP, then please forward a copy to Clark so he can remove you from his campaign before you do any more damage.

[PsN2Wind]

171. Welcome to DU

You'll notice that we are very elitist here. Thats because we will all soon have our BAs, all "free" or at least paid for by someone else. These valuable degrees will have us all earning in the upper percentile so there is no need for those kind of jobs we sent offshore. Besides, even with this high level of income, we are much more concerned about being able to buy cheap DVD players than we are with decent jobs for those just that can't make the cut.
(Sarcasm is permissible here, though not always appreciated)

[private_ryan]

172. whateva...

not going to bother responding. Think whatever you want.

[Kanary]

173. Hi Powerlock!

Welcome to D.U.!

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

:toast:

Kanary

[JohnLocke]

149. Edwards is big on this

[DocSavage]

153. More money in my pocket

This is a great idea. I do not have to save any money for my kids any more. Thier education will be paid for by other people, and my taxes will go up less then the amount that I am putting away for them too.

And just think how much money business owners are going to save. They will not have to offer tuition assistance to the employees if education is going to be paid for by the state. More money for the stock holders! And there is be no tuition assistance incentive for anyone to join the military, so a draft will have to be instituted. I mean, why go join the army for college money if you can get it by just registering for school.

And the best benefit of all, no kids will fail HS again. How much pressure do you think there will be on teachers to pass kids with a better than C so they will qualify for the free tuition.

[Instant Karma]

154. It would discriminate against males

[FDRrocks]

174. Cause democracy might work if everyone was well educated...

And then the Washington beaurocrats wouldn't be able to get thier pockets lined for passing bullshit legislation in the names of powerful interest that often contradict the good of the people. People would be too in the know and you wouldn't have the partisan selective-hearing ostriches that many people seem to be.

We'd have a shut down.

[JVS]

175. Germany has free college. It is good.

[w4rma]

176. First 2 years of college as free as a public high school sounds good to me

It would improve our country as a whole, IMHO. I'm for it for that reason alone.